09-01-2004, 06:40 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
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Anyone catch Schwarzenegger's speech at the RNC?
He certainly lent a new perspective (Immigrant, as a boy living under Soviet occupation, coming from a socialist country, etc) to the convention. He was an excellent speaker and his accent and sometimes mispronounced words really lent him a more cordial tone. He seemed to really focus on the great things about America (opportunity, sacrifice, valor, etc) and was pretty damned motivational.
Of course, people will likely criticize him for not getting into specifics on why GWB is the best choice of leaders but overall I was impressed by his performance. Quote:
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09-01-2004, 06:59 AM | #2 (permalink) | |
My future is coming on
Moderator Emeritus
Location: east of the sun and west of the moon
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I thought William Saletan offered a dead-on critique of the speech:
http://www.slate.com/id/2106025/ Quote:
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09-01-2004, 07:09 AM | #3 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
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Quote:
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09-01-2004, 07:30 AM | #4 (permalink) |
I change
Location: USA
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Arnold's speech was a high-quality "political" address. He aimed high and he hit the mark. The fact that there are disagreements on implicit and explicit positions is a fact of political partisanship. The fact that the speech was powerful, direct, and conveyed strong and compelling personal and human experience and communicated effectively is not addressed by partisan critique, which is couched in the guise of logical argument or disputational rhetoric.
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09-01-2004, 08:15 AM | #5 (permalink) | |
Inspired by the mind's eye.
Location: Between the darkness and the light.
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Quote:
Schwarzenegger's speech was an excellent convention speech. Serious at some times, humorus at other times and always full of energy. And it was a speech that I personally could identify with since my uncle is an Austrian immigrant who was a little boy under Nazi occupation and then grew up under Soviet occupation. And after coming to the US and getting his citizenship, he too joined the Republicians.
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09-01-2004, 08:49 AM | #6 (permalink) |
can't help but laugh
Location: dar al-harb
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saletan may disagree with bush's policy orientation, but i find it hard to believe that many republicans like him consider kerry anything close to a viable alternative.
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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill |
09-01-2004, 09:27 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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that last post seems like border control.
i think bush has alienated most moderates--including fiscal conservatives. those whom i know and have talked to across the board are not voting bush this time. and they are not persuaded by the illusion that kerry is other than a centrist. [a side note, of a much smaller cadre: he has alienated most muslim-americans, those who were inclined to vote bush on social conservative grounds as well.] bush has alienated lots of people. just face it. one of the main tasks of this convention/tv event is to coax these folk back into the fold. it is self-evident. i do not understand how the fantasy that kerry is other than a centrist has taken hold anywhere--i figure it suits the purposes of the republicans to portray him as some leftist in part because it normalizes the extreme rightward drift the party has undergone, which is on the surface now in bushworld. it plays on the old canard dear to the right these days that they are a persecuted populist minority beset on all sides by stalinists---which is little more than a version of the evangelical persecution complex (one's faith is reflected in the level of antagonistic rejection one encounters from unbelievers) . the function of the narrative is obvious enough--it draws boundaries that people can live within---but the mystery is that anyone finds it compelling. you have to have a really narrow political spectrum in mind for the argument to hold--like you are de facto aligning with some militia outfit (a "patriot organization"), and are taking a little breather from playing paintball in camo and distributing pamphlets about how no-one should participate in jury duty to look around. the paranoid vision is an index of ideological purity, presumably. that you might encounter this line from talking heads on fox news (or someplace equivalent or even worse) who wear bidness suits and talk over those who disagree changes nothing. i thought saletan pretty much on in most of what he says. i have not seen anything like a substantive critique of his article here--saying he wrong about everything is not substantive---but i would be interested in seeing one.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 09-01-2004 at 09:29 AM.. |
09-01-2004, 09:30 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Philadelphia
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I was there last night and his speech was powerful and will be hard to follow.
Everone I spoke with thinks that speech will have a serious impact on undecided voters. Arnold stole the show and that's all there is too it.
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09-01-2004, 09:35 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
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Quote:
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09-01-2004, 09:45 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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if you are going to critique the article, it is usually good form to take on what it actually is about.
it is primarily a discourse analysis of schwartzenegger's speech. the facts he musters are the shifts in language within the speech. the general framework for interpretation are broader policy issues, but they are not central to the analysis. and the logic of the article does not work the other way around. the evaluation of the argument would come in whether you agree with how saletan characterizes the speech, not in whether you disagree with the frameworks that he brings to bear on those features. what saletan does in the article i find interesting. his point seems to be that arnolds own political position does not permit him to actually endorse bush, and that the endorsement sections of the speech are fraught with ambivalence if you read it carefully--the speech therefore perform what i assume he takes to be the problem facing moderates at this convention. that is the argument. do you find that a problem? if so why?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 09-01-2004 at 09:49 AM.. |
09-01-2004, 09:51 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
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Quote:
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09-01-2004, 09:54 AM | #13 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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it is a specific analysis, onetime.
you say its wrong, but then wont address the actual content of the article. if you are going to play that way, why bother in the first place?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
09-01-2004, 09:59 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
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Quote:
His use of the term despite attacks within his state the last time he used it really helps him exert dominance over his critics. The challenge I think he will have is transitioning from an in your face kind of political style to one of more intellectual substance. That will make him a real political powerhouse. He's already got the reputation of strength (7 Mr Universe titles or whatever cemented that a long time ago) now he needs to reinforce his other traits so that powerful speeches are not his only calling card and can be used only when necessary to drive points home.
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09-01-2004, 10:09 AM | #15 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
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Quote:
Who knows Arnold's logic better, Arnold or Mr. Saletan? Saletan makes spurious claims as to Arnold's true beliefs and makes further assertions which haven't a shred of truth. Examples: To say that the Iraq campaign is "a complete failure" is only one obvious example of his intellectual dishonesty. Another, "The American economy is performing far below par." Please tell me where the truth is here? He obviously has no clue what par is historically for the economy or where the economy stands today. He offered no specifics whatsoever and you tout his analysis, yet you expect substantive specifics in return. If you require substantive proof of one you should require substantive proof of the other.
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09-01-2004, 10:28 AM | #16 (permalink) |
can't help but laugh
Location: dar al-harb
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border control? oh my...
the president is running neck and neck with kerry, and that is before any boost from the convention. it's hard to accept your analysis that they are trying to coax moderates back into the fold, as if they had left in significant numbers, when the moderate position must be strong enough to garner half the electorate already. reaching out for more moderates? probably. a good strategy if you ask me. but i think you're kidding yourself if you think kerry is a significantly stronger candidate among moderates than the president.
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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill |
09-01-2004, 10:37 AM | #17 (permalink) |
Crazy
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If you missed Guliani's speech, I believe I can offer a synopsis. "September 11th, 9/11, nine eleven, on September the 11th, Bush is great, 9/11, 9/11, September the 11th, before September the 11th, Bush is a strong unwaivering leader, after September the 11th, Bush defends Americans from terrorists, September the 11th will not be forgotten."
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09-01-2004, 10:42 AM | #18 (permalink) |
Banned from being Banned
Location: Donkey
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It was a great speech. After all, he is an actor, so I'd be highly surprised if he actually every gave a bad speech! It'd be even better if half of what he said was actually the way it really is.
Don't get me wrong, Arnold is a good Governor and all (from what I've read), but is he even talking about the same US I'm living in? I'd really like to live in the US he speaks of!! I kinda lose all hope in things and realize it's all for show when he actually believes that Bush could make it so..
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09-01-2004, 10:45 AM | #19 (permalink) | |
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
Location: Grantville, Pa
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Most liberal senator ACCORDING TO WHO? Which organization(s) Please answer this! |
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09-01-2004, 10:59 AM | #20 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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09-01-2004, 11:00 AM | #21 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
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Quote:
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rati...an_id=S0421103
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09-01-2004, 11:32 AM | #22 (permalink) |
I change
Location: USA
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Who? - Americans for Democratic Action, a leading liberal organization for more than half a century. The ADA keeps tabs on Congressional voting and ranks Senators on their votes for liberal causes, so as to inform ADA's members as to who are their strongest supporters.
Senator Kerry came in number one on liberal voting in the Senate, ranking above Ted Kennedy. http://www.adaction.org/KerryEdwardsVR.htm
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09-01-2004, 12:41 PM | #23 (permalink) |
Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate
Location: Los Angeles
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Considering the undecided is somewhere between 1-2% of the nation, a convention isn't going to sway a large fraction of the votes (it can certainly decide things, but don't kid yourself - most people are set on who they are going to vote if they even vote, not to mention not everyone watches the conventions)
And FWIW, whenver a candidate goes through primaries, they are generally more to the extremes of the political spectrum. Why? Because often times the people who actually bother to go out to vote are those who are more extreme on the spectrum themselves. |
09-01-2004, 12:51 PM | #24 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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Stompy, I don't agree that arnold has been a very effective governor for our state for a variety of reasons, but I should save that for another thread.
But his speech last night was clearly powerful, despite the pitfalls touched upon by the article lurkette posted (thank you, btw). I was wondering, too, just what the impetus is from the right to reinterpret that 1960's era so romantically--it used to be the 50's. Has the focus of reinterpretation moved forward a decade in synch with real time? I would hope they've got a tough time ahead in regards to that project, but people are actually eating up the valorious and noble vietnam war along with the standard bearer of republican truth--Richard Nixon, WTH? All that aside, Shwarzenegger gave the best speech I have ever seen him give (and, no, he didn't give great ones before, acting career aside). One of my deepest felt fears is his powerful persona and how much effect he may have on the political landscape of California. I would prefer substance over this melding of pop-culture and politics ('girlie men', no please, spoofing SNL is not my idea of greatness), but the people seem willing to eat it up--so who am I to object to what befalls them as a result? Oh yeah, and I'm not a kerry supporter, either, but wanted to respond to this: Quote:
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09-01-2004, 01:42 PM | #25 (permalink) | |
Inspired by the mind's eye.
Location: Between the darkness and the light.
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Though onetime and ARTelevision have already answered for me, if you're still not convinced, here's the list of the National Journal's ratings for senators. You'll find John Kerry at the top of the list. http://nationaljournal.com/members/n...posite_lib.htm
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09-01-2004, 02:05 PM | #26 (permalink) | |
Dubya
Location: VA
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Quote:
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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work." |
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09-01-2004, 02:22 PM | #27 (permalink) | |
Inspired by the mind's eye.
Location: Between the darkness and the light.
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Quote:
It should also be noted that Kerry has also earned the honor of "Most liberal senator" by the National Journal three prior times. According to the Drudge Report
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09-01-2004, 02:56 PM | #29 (permalink) | |
spudly
Location: Ellay
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Quote:
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09-01-2004, 04:12 PM | #30 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
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09-01-2004, 04:40 PM | #32 (permalink) | |
Loser
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As for Arnold's speech - it was grand and all, but the only way you can apply the glowing idealism of its contents specifically to the affects of Republican policies is if you are both 1, a Republican and 2, Oblivious.
Not that it would be any more accurate to apply his speech to the Democrats - ultimately, it was nothing more than "America is great!" ... with an occasional "Democrats are not" thrown in so that we can all see Arnold's beautiful, glorious vision of the Republican party. Quote:
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09-01-2004, 04:53 PM | #33 (permalink) | |
Inspired by the mind's eye.
Location: Between the darkness and the light.
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Quote:
__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions. |
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09-01-2004, 05:02 PM | #34 (permalink) | |
Loser
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That it effectively debunked the National Journal talking point should not detract from the comedy of watching Jon Stewart walk all over the Republican talking head he had on his show at the time. |
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09-01-2004, 06:23 PM | #36 (permalink) |
Fuckin' A
Location: Lex Vegas
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Did anybody else notice that the whole focus of last night seemed to be "we like America better than the Democrats"? Maybe it just appeared that way to me. Anyways, Schwarzenegger's speech was one of the best examples of motivational oration this world has seen in the past 20 years. The reason that it lacked specifics on why we should vote for Bush was because the purpose of his speech was not to include specifics in order to persuade us to vote for anybody, it was rather just a speech to set the tone for the convention. In my opinion he did a damn fine job of it, pointing out the things that the Bush campaign seems to be banking on: the aspects of this nation that makes it great in order to set the tone. He used a great, heartwarming story of achieving the "American Dream" to effectively pull at the heartstrings of the audience.
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09-01-2004, 06:27 PM | #37 (permalink) |
Fuckin' A
Location: Lex Vegas
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btw, I'm a Republican, but I don't think I'll be voting for Bush.
And America doesn't suck as much as you think it does. It whips the hell out of living in a country where we would be shot for talking about our country in such a way, and it sure beats a country where your government makes you work hard without getting shit in return. Plus, most of the people that say stuff like "the government blows," "rich people suck," or "Republicans/Democrats are assholes" don't vote anyway. So stop your bitching. Last edited by samspear@direcw; 09-01-2004 at 06:34 PM.. |
09-01-2004, 07:57 PM | #38 (permalink) |
Banned from being Banned
Location: Donkey
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America does "suck" as much as I think it does. What's important to me might not be important to you, vice versa. In fact, I vote.. and my first time voting was in 2000 for Bush. Hey, at the time, he sold himself very well with a lot of promises. It's just unfortunate that, IMO, he didn't turn out to be someone I felt comfortable having as a leader. Not now that a lot of the world views us differently (and negatively).
The govt hasn't done anything to upset *my* general flow of life, and I consider myself lucky for that. I of all people know what opportunities are presented because I started my career at 16 and have lived a comfortable life ever since, however... I don't just live in my own little world. There are more things that make up a country as a whole than personal opportunity like Arnold explained. You might not outright get SHOT for talking bad about your country, but goddamn is it ever headed in that direction! For example, after 9/11, if you talked bad about this country and pointed out that our foreign policy is not as good as it can be, people acted like you were a traitor or a terrorist. The country has a different... air about it lately, and to me, it's not a comforting one. When the leaders themselves belt out lines like "you're either with us or against us" and sway the general population into thinking the same, problems tend to arise. There's definitely a lot more reasons why I don't picture the same America that Arnold speaks of. Land of opportunity? Indeed, but... there's really more to it than that.
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09-02-2004, 10:06 AM | #39 (permalink) | |
Tilted
Location: So. Cali
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"suck it up, faggots" |
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09-02-2004, 11:09 AM | #40 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Reality Check Quote:
Last edited by powerclown; 09-02-2004 at 11:24 AM.. |
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