"Evidence" of Bush's support of Swift Boat group - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

onetime2 · 08-30-2004, 07:40 AM

Quote:

First lady criticized for swift boat remark
Monday, August 30, 2004 Posted: 10:18 AM EDT (1418 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Kerry campaign Sunday criticized first lady Laura Bush for what the campaign called her "statement in support of the swift boat smear ads."

The campaign was referring to a new Time magazine interview in which Mrs. Bush is asked about the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ads attacking Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry's war record and his comments upon return from Vietnam.

In the interview she is asked, "Do you think these swift boat ads are unfair to John Kerry?"

"Not really," she replies. "There have been millions of terrible ads against my husband."

President Bush has praised Kerry's war record but has refused to condemn the attacks in the group's ads.

The Kerry campaign has alleged the Bush campaign illegally cooperated with the group in producing the ads -- a charge the campaign and the group vigorously deny.

Bush-Cheney legal adviser Benjamin Ginsberg and retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier, an unpaid adviser to the campaign on veterans' issues, resigned the campaign this week over their involvement with the swift boat group.

"Mrs. Bush's statement in support of the swift boat smear ads is more sad evidence that these attacks have been coordinated from the top down at the White House," Kerry campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said in a statement.

Several statements by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth directly contradict the Navy record of events and in some cases their own previous statements. Other statements are more opinion than fact based.

"The president still stubbornly refuses to repudiate these lies. [Senator] John McCain knows from personal experience that these attacks are shameful and wrong. The president should answer McCain's call to renounce these lies once and for all."

McCain, R-Arizona, one of the Republican National Convention's main speakers and a Vietnam veteran who was a POW for five-and-a-half years, has called the ads "dishonest and dishonorable." McCain ran against Bush in 2000 during a bruising fight for the Republican presidential nomination. (Bush asks McCain to help block 527s)

Bush's policies have been the subject of attacks by other independent groups known as 527s.

Bush has called for an end to all political ads by the so-called 527 groups -- so named for the part of the law that addresses them -- and has challenged Kerry to join him in that call. Kerry condemned an ad attacking Bush's war record.

"Mrs. Bush's statement in support of the swift boat smear ads is more sad evidence that these attacks have been coordinated from the top down at the White House," Kerry campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said in a statement.

Oh please. The first lady was asked if the ads by the Swift boat group were unfair to Kerry and her response was "no" because there have been plenty of ads targeting her husband making claims at least as outrageous. This somehow is "EVIDENCE" of Bush's control of the group!?!

roachboy · 08-30-2004, 08:40 AM

look, there is ample evidence of cross-connections between the swiftboat guys and the bush campaign--i do not understand why you continue to post these articles as if somehow, at some point, these connections will vanish. or as if you could figure out some way to relativize the problem to such an extent that conversation on the matter would become paralyzed.

i am interested the division between media spaces that this kind of argument reflects--you can live in a conservative media universe it seems, or you can live in another, or a whole series of other, media universes, each with its own premises, each with its own modes of argument, each with its own systems of reinforcement. this seems to make conversation across positions quite difficult, because i assume that people with differing political positions would simply talk past each other.

i dont think this division/these divisions would be simply a matter of sources in a one-for-one kind of way, either: rather the primary media spaces one inhabits would operate as a kind of interpretive filter that would extend across other sources, screening out some information, including other types.

do you think the above accurate?
and if so, what might we do about it? (not so much in terms of dismantling institutions--but at the level of conversation)---if i am right, then this series of threads about the swiftboat people might be seen as an index of this bigger problem.

TheKak · 08-30-2004, 08:44 AM

*grabs a stick and helps beat down that dead horse!*

Its not evidence. I don't even see where someone called it evidence. The title isn't "Evidence of Bush involvment in Swift Boat ads", its "First Lady criticized for...".

Neither side of this fight has any ammunition. Kerry went to Vietnam and may or may not have earned his medals in the way he said he did. He came back and talked bad about the people he served with.

Bush skipped out on Vietnam.

They both suck, and this horse couldn't get any deader.

onetime2 · 08-30-2004, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKak

Its not evidence. I don't even see where someone called it evidence. .

Apparently you missed it not only in the article but in the bolded quote I pulled from the article. For the third time here it goes again:

Quote:

"Mrs. Bush's statement in support of the swift boat smear ads is more sad evidence that these attacks have been coordinated from the top down at the White House," Kerry campaign spokeswoman Stephanie Cutter said in a statement.

That is the official statement from the Kerry campaign on the matter. It clearly points to this statement from Laura Bush as being EVIDENCE of links.

onetime2 · 08-30-2004, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

look, there is ample evidence of cross-connections between the swiftboat guys and the bush campaign--i do not understand why you continue to post these articles as if somehow, at some point, these connections will vanish. or as if you could figure out some way to relativize the problem to such an extent that conversation on the matter would become paralyzed.

i am interested the division between media spaces that this kind of argument reflects--you can live in a conservative media universe it seems, or you can live in another, or a whole series of other, media universes, each with its own premises, each with its own modes of argument, each with its own systems of reinforcement. this seems to make conversation across positions quite difficult, because i assume that people with differing political positions would simply talk past each other.

i dont think this division/these divisions would be simply a matter of sources in a one-for-one kind of way, either: rather the primary media spaces one inhabits would operate as a kind of interpretive filter that would extend across other sources, screening out some information, including other types.

do you think the above accurate?
and if so, what might we do about it? (not so much in terms of dismantling institutions--but at the level of conversation)---if i am right, then this series of threads about the swiftboat people might be seen as an index of this bigger problem.

Ample evidence of links? Fine if you count the two people (one appearing in an ad and one giving professional advice as a client) and Laura Bush's statement as ample evidence of links that's fine. I don't count the "links" between Kerry and the other 527s as significant either but I have no doubt that these organizations are acting as a de facto representative of both campaigns. The sticking point is trying to prove coordination between the campaigns and the 527s. There is no significant evidence that the campaigns are coordinating their efforts with these groups.

What the Kerry campaign is trying to do is prove such coordination by pointing to Laura Bush's statement of the ads not being unfair.

If you'd care to tell me how this statement by the First Lady is evidence of the administration's support of the Swift Boat Groups I'm more than happy to discuss it. Otherwise, I have no interest in discussing alternative media universes in this thread. Feel free to start another on that topic if you wish.

roachboy · 08-30-2004, 09:30 AM

i do not have time today to do much beyond pointing you at a series of sources, most of which have a wide range of documentary links.
check the articles, follow the links to sources, look at the organizations that post this material too if you like. we'll see what if anything comes of it.

have fun.

on the sbvt adverts themselves:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244

on the swift boat veterans:

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...rans_for_Truth

on the linkages:

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/19695/

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...=Merrie_Spaeth

general:

http://mediatransparency.org/stories/apparat.html

irateplatypus · 08-30-2004, 10:10 AM

i wish kerry spinster stephanie cutter would realize the distinction between supporting an ad and not considering them unfair.

smooth · 08-30-2004, 10:40 AM

double-post

smooth · 08-30-2004, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

i wish kerry spinster stephanie cutter would realize the distinction between supporting an ad and not considering them unfair.

Well, I mean, wasn't it Laura's husband that said, "you're either for us or against us?"

onetime2 · 08-30-2004, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i do not have time today to do much beyond pointing you at a series of sources, most of which have a wide range of documentary links.
check the articles, follow the links to sources, look at the organizations that post this material too if you like. we'll see what if anything comes of it.

have fun.

on the sbvt adverts themselves:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244

on the swift boat veterans:

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...rans_for_Truth

on the linkages:

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/19695/

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...=Merrie_Spaeth

general:

http://mediatransparency.org/stories/apparat.html

I am very familiar with the alleged links and none of those sources you cite prove anything near collaboration. Pointing to those who contribute money or time to both the GOP/Bush campaign and that particular 527 proves what exactly in your mind? Do you feel the same way about Move On, ACT, etc since their monies come from those strongly alligned with the Kerry campaign and there has been movement of employees from one to the other?

As I recall Kerry has only criticized one ad from the Democratic leaning 527s, is that "evidence" that he's controlling them? Of course not.

Pointing to a source claiming that Kerry's words from his Senate testimony were taken out of context while trying to justify the Kerry campaign's outright lie that Laura Bush's words are evidence of a link between Bush and the Swift Boat group is a bit outlandish.

But if those sources prove to you that Laura Bush saying:

Quote:

"Not really," she replies. "There have been millions of terrible ads against my husband."

means that George Bush is controlling the Swift Boat group then I guess we really have nothing else to discuss.

08-30-2004, 08:40 AM	#2 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	look, there is ample evidence of cross-connections between the swiftboat guys and the bush campaign--i do not understand why you continue to post these articles as if somehow, at some point, these connections will vanish. or as if you could figure out some way to relativize the problem to such an extent that conversation on the matter would become paralyzed. i am interested the division between media spaces that this kind of argument reflects--you can live in a conservative media universe it seems, or you can live in another, or a whole series of other, media universes, each with its own premises, each with its own modes of argument, each with its own systems of reinforcement. this seems to make conversation across positions quite difficult, because i assume that people with differing political positions would simply talk past each other. i dont think this division/these divisions would be simply a matter of sources in a one-for-one kind of way, either: rather the primary media spaces one inhabits would operate as a kind of interpretive filter that would extend across other sources, screening out some information, including other types. do you think the above accurate? and if so, what might we do about it? (not so much in terms of dismantling institutions--but at the level of conversation)---if i am right, then this series of threads about the swiftboat people might be seen as an index of this bigger problem. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-30-2004, 08:44 AM	#3 (permalink)
TheKak Insane Location: Virginia	grabs a stick and helps beat down that dead horse! Its not evidence. I don't even see where someone called it evidence. The title isn't "Evidence of Bush involvment in Swift Boat ads", its "First Lady criticized for...". Neither side of this fight has any ammunition. Kerry went to Vietnam and may or may not have earned his medals in the way he said he did. He came back and talked bad about the people he served with. Bush skipped out on Vietnam. They both suck, and this horse couldn't get any deader. __________________ Roses are red, violets are blue, I'm a schizophrenic and so am I.

08-30-2004, 09:30 AM	#6 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i do not have time today to do much beyond pointing you at a series of sources, most of which have a wide range of documentary links. check the articles, follow the links to sources, look at the organizations that post this material too if you like. we'll see what if anything comes of it. have fun. on the sbvt adverts themselves: http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=244 on the swift boat veterans: http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...rans_for_Truth on the linkages: http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/19695/ http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...=Merrie_Spaeth general: http://mediatransparency.org/stories/apparat.html __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-30-2004, 10:10 AM	#7 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i wish kerry spinster stephanie cutter would realize the distinction between supporting an ad and not considering them unfair. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

08-30-2004, 10:40 AM	#8 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	double-post __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman Last edited by smooth; 08-30-2004 at 10:44 AM..