Illegal Immigration
 

I have my thoughts what are yours?
BTW - I live in San Diego.

Why don't you get it started by stating your thoughts? It might be a better way to spark conversation...

How can we focus on illegal immigration without talking about our immigration policy in general? When so much of debate hinges on what is or isn't legal, and what should or shouldn't be, making the debate specifically about illegal immigration kind of loads the forum before anything gets started.

Good Point however I need a alittle time cause I am at work. :icare:

if they are going to keep giving us all their people they should give us their land too........

Its one of those double edged swords. On the one hand they make security an issue and well, it's illegal and has those problems attached to it.

On the other hand, without it, there are many many jobs that would not be taken and honestly would hurt our economy a lot.

First let me start off by saying the current situation is a mess. Bush's amnesty program is a joke. It seems as though we have three options.

A. Complete open borders
B. Limited Immigration
C. Current status (chaos)

A. Complete open borders - Many in California want this however this would destroy our economy and cause chaos beyond belief.
B. Limited Immigration - Only logical choice to me.
C. Current status (chaos) - How could anyone support this, immigrants and their families are hurt, and US citizens are hurt as well. It seems as though if you break the law long enough you are rewarded.


Limited Immigration
We need to have penalties for employers who hire illegal aliens. We need to have penalties for those who are here illegally. We need 'Guest Visas' for those who want to come to work cause the current status forces the breadwinner (male) to leave his family in Mexico. We need to all be on the same page, be consistent with our policy.

The Matricular card that many want the US to accept is a joke, I found out that card is not accepted in Mexico due to fraud!

Driver license for illegal, I understand the goal is have insured competent drivers but this hidden agenda is open borders, how can we justify rewarding illegal behavior?

Interesting stats -

The illegal-alien population at 2003 stands at least 8 million. Included in this estimate are approximately 78,000 illegal aliens from countries who are of special concern in the war on terror. It is important to note that the 500,000 annual increases is the net growth in the illegal-alien population (new illegal immigration minus deaths, legalizations, and out-migration).

1996 Costs Table from the Huddle Study (assuming 5 million illegal)
Programs (billions)
Public Education K-12 $5.85
Public Higher Education $0.71
ESL and Bilingual Education $1.22
Food Stamps $0.85
AFDC $0.50
Housing $0.61
Social Security $3.61
Earned Income Tax Credit $0.68 (they are getting IRS refunds)
Medicaid $3.12
Medicare A and B $0.58
Criminal Justice and Corrections $0.76
Local Government $5.00
Other Programs $9.25
Total Costs $32.74
Less Taxes Paid $12.59
Net Costs of Direct Services $20.16
Displacement Costs $4.28

All Net Costs $24.44


Mind you most of these costs are placed on California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. The Bush Administration should reimburse these states.

On a personal note I am part Mexican / Asian / Caucasian so don't throw racist remarks back at me. I have Asian relatives who came here with nothing that have assimilated into society and have educated themselves, I have Mexican relatives who have not been so successful, I believe that culture has allot to do with this.

I don't think it is in so much culture as it is background. I know more Hispanic billionaires/millionaires who made that in the U.S. than Asians who had money before coming (and being mixed and living in LA, theres a lot to see)

Anyways as far as immigration goes... quick fact to note is that if immigration would stop, the U.S. along with most other Western nations (mainly Europe) would decrease in population dramatically.

Halting immigration isn't going to help the nation - I still prefer open borders for people but still with the key mind in security. However, I don't see what you mean by the entire economy would be in disarray and chaos if borders were open.

How do you propose this?

Put them in our overpopulated prisons? There's murdurers getting out within just a few years of their sentencing because they dont have room, I'd MUCH rather have a poor family living in the US than letting murdurers out.

Fines? These people have no money, that's why they're comin over here.

Some sort of Community Service? It'd take lots of police to make sure they didnt just bolt.

I agree with your opinions but I see no way of putting any sort of punishment that makes sense.

What are your thought on deporting them for a penalty, that is what other countries do?

I think what you're saying is as a penalty for crossing our borders we deport them back to their country of origin? Sorry if I misunderstand the question.

To answer that, that's what we've been doing pretty much the entire time. The exact same people try dozens of times, and never stop trying until they slip past and embed themselves in the US. Many only try to stay the 9 months to have a baby (who is a full citizen now), and the US will not separate the family so allow them to stay. I live in Texas and many of my friends families have become full citizens this way. That being said I understand and agree to the need for secure borders, but you have to realize these people ARE people. They come from horrid conditions, and only want to come here for work. They dont want to live on welfare, they dont want to come to steal our jobs away at gunpoint. They want to make their lives better, as all of our families in the past, something too easily forgotten by people yelling "they're here to steal our jobs!".

Guess that's my biggest bleeding-heart liberal argument. I dont agree with handouts but to deny the chance to make one's lives bigger IS anti-American.

Right on, Seaver

I am kind of torn on this issue, if I Joe Citizen broke the law lets say cheated on my taxes 5 years ago and now was caught and was penalized with jail time I would be seperated from my family as I did jail time however Mr Illegal Alien does not?
It would break my heart to see families seperated or having the whole family moving back to Mexico.

True MustGT, but you have to look at it in that if they're coming here illegally it means all of their pocessions are included with whatever they cross with. Fining them wont do anything because they have no spare cash. You couldnt deport an infant who is a US citizen who comitted no crime, and you couldnt have thousands of orphans without parents. I agree there should be some sort of punishment but nothing here would fit the relatively victimless crime.

IMHO. I say we give all the illegals from Mexico or South America automatic amnesty. If you are here you are a citizen. That way they are paying taxes, giving back to the land they take from. Then we erect a wall from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean. Thirty feet tall and thirty feet into the ground with a twenty foot buffer zone on either side. With barbed wire and gun towers every mile. If you come close to the wall we blow you away. I guess a couple of warning shots to be fair first. Problem solved.

Ironically, manning and maintaining such a wall would cost more money than the amount of money taxes get paid from those given amnesty

I have a hard time with the immigration issue because my fundamental belief in personal liberty and human rights doesn't stop at the border. I don't believe that a Mexican is fundamentally less deserving of rights than Americans.

Ultimately, open borders are the ultimate goal. Do I think that means we should immediately get rid of border controls? No. But each step we take should lead to greater liberty for people on either side of that border. We can do this through a few rational steps:

1) Improvement of conditions here for people. By opening doors to allow immigrants to better themselves and become a more productive part of the system here, we all benefit.

2) Improvement of conditions abroad. Working to ensure labor and human rights are recognized and protected by foreign governments reduces the desparation of those who might seek to get into the US.

I cannot agree that these are victimless crimes, 95% of murder warrants in Los Angeles county are for illegal immigrants

Could you please post a source for that information?

Sure but we have to wait until tomorrow. We have been bombarded with advertisments on the tele stating those facts. The ad refers to some LA county gov't web site. I will jot that down tonight and we can check it out tomorrow.

95% of warrants in LA County going for illegal immigrants sounds high... no, extremely high...

Given how many crimes are committed in LA County and how diverse the population is (and how many are citizens), that would be a very small group doing a lot of crimes everywhere.. when in truth, it would be hard to

I'd like to see where those numbers come from given that the last few times I saw warrants out for people, they were very much citizens

Well, I searched for this information. I found that 95% number several places, but it all seems to come from this article;

"In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens." Link

However, she cites no source for this statistic(also, it is outstanding murder warrants, unsurprising if you think about the fact that it's much harder to track an illegal immigrant than a legitimate citizen). I've found it used in various other webpages, lifted whole from the article, but still no source (not even to the original article in some cases). I would be interested to see where Heather MacDonald got the number, so I emailed the City Journal. I'll let you know if I get a response.

So what you're saying is your take on illegal immigration is to make it not illegal?

http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy...0401220906.asp
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_...gal_alien.html

I'm having trouble finding a primary source, so it might just be circular referencing. Here are the statistics being quoted:

Another article also mentions that an estimated 8 million immigrants live in this country illegally. Using the tax rates found here (http://www.savewealth.com/taxes/rates/single/), assuming they all made $6000 that would produce around $4.8 billion in additional tax income. I find it hard to believe a wall would cost that much to construct, given that the total budget for INS is around $5 billion or so.

I think America should be a land of opportunity for those who do not violate our laws. Obviously we're not going to be totally successful in blocking illegal immigration, but our borders need to be much more secure than they are now.

several points:
on the general question at hand:

1. if you want to stem the flow of undocumented workers to the states, get employers to stop hiring them.

2. but in these days of cowboy capitalism, employers find it to be just find to drive wages down to the lowest possible level (cost-cutting, dontcha know) so am not sure how you would do the above exactly.

3. undocumented status for workers has political consequences as well--it more or less guarantees an atomized, powerless workforce, one not likely to organize itself because of the ways in which undocumented status is understood. this works out for the maintenance of political control in a number of cali-cities.

4. it is also typical of these days of cowboy capitalism that people "concerned" about the matter of undocumented workers would be more inclined to blame the workers than look to firms, which drive the economic cycle that draws people to find work here in the first place.

5. it is also interesting that no attention seems to be paid to the outflows of this population--it is not obvious that undocumented workers come to stay in the states in any number statistically speaking. but it seems not to matter for the--largely rightwing--ideologues who manipulate the political matters surrounding this issue to create a sense of beleagured national solidarity, which is crucial to mobilizing people in a rightwing direction.

on crime stats:

6. police stats on this kind of issue should be viewed with great suspicion, particularly those from la, given the glorious history of racism institutionalised by that department.

7. even if the stats cited above are not problematic (an argument would have to be made for that--i do not buy the idea a priori), the logic behind them would seem to militate for an easing or elimination of undocumented status--which would in principle tend to drive wages up--which would reduce the levels of poverty--and would make these workers part of a political process for defense of their own interests--which would perhaps eliminate some of the incentives to organize for their own defense on other grounds.

it seems to me that you cannot have it both ways--if you are inclined to uncritically cheerlead for this variant of capitalism, you have nothing to say about undocumented workers as such--who are human beings drawn to the states for work because employers find it in their economic interests to hire them. conversely, if you have some kind of problem with undocumented workers, it forces you directly into a critique of this variant of capitalism--if it does not, then what you have to say is incoherent.

Here is the link
http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy...0401220906.asp

Here is the paragraph...
In Los Angeles, 95 percent of the outstanding murder warrants are for illegal aliens, as are perhaps two-thirds of the 17,000 outstanding felony warrants.

it's funny how conservative media has developed its own, completely self-referential littlr world. check out the article link by the national review, which forms the source of the material you cite, 98--look at whoi/what the "manhattan institute" is. it confirms my point (5, above)

Actually, you've already taken our land. We're just coming back to reclaim what is ours, the land, the jobs, and a little interest.... your daughters
:lol:

That was just a joke BTW, or was it.....


Seaver, I liked a lot of what you said, however, I have to disagree with you on this point:

Most legal/illegal immigrants are males that come here and usually work for a year or two or until they get caught. They try to save up enough money to send back home either to their mom or their spouse. Much of that money is in return saved so that when they have enough and have been caught enough times they can get legal documentations for them and if enough is left for their spouses and families.

If not enough money is left they do find ways of bringing their families with them. In that time period of being here many do have intercourse and do have babies that are then born in the US. Thus making the babies US citizens. But in many cases they (the illegal aliens) will of been here for a few years.

Bumped for relevance.
From another thread:

If the illegals get amnesty I want amnesty on the next 5 years of federal income taxes. Perhaps I will plan some demonstrations and school walk-outs, since that appears to be the way we change laws we don't like.

Bumped from here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=103421



Will, I love ya, and we agree on many issues. However, ILLEGAL is just that ILLEGAL. Once you cross over into this country ILLEGALLY you have no rights.

I am tired of people making excuses for ILLEGALS to be here, there is no excuse.

Yes, they take jobs.... and it is a concern but there are deeper concerns for me.

They are:

The BILLIONS they cost taxpayers for healthcare, housing, the criminal system and so on.

Hell, I posted here the law Congress and the president signed giving $1 BILLION to SouthWestern hospitals (that claimed they were going broke treating illegals) for FREE healthcare to illegals.

They are freaking ILLEGAL and they get FREE healthcare??????? I work my ass off, go to school and when I got treated I have my credit destroyed and sit on $25,000 worth of bills????? WTF, is that fair to me a TAXPAYING LEGALLY BORN US CITIZEN??????

Is it fair that some of these ILLEGALS get to use tax payers services? Where I work we have an ILLEGAL who has been here 25 years and he abused the system to get "detoxed" once a month for about 6 months consecutively (until he was banned). He would stay, get medicated, sleep, eat and leave. So the taxpayers of Summit County and Akron paid close to $2500 for this ILLEGAL, who paid NOTHING.

This same ILLEGAL uses our drop-in as his own little hotel and demands Detox every night. HE'll go to the hospitals in Akron and claim he needs "detoxed" and they call us having a doctor tell us to treat him (until the Dr. finds out his past). How much is that costing taxpayers??????

And this is in Akron, Ohio, I can only imagine how bad it is in border states. It's no wonder services like these are closing down because of lack of funds.

How about crime??????

In Hartville, Ohio a farm that works closely with a Jam/Jelly company hired ILLEGALS. 3 of them got trashed held up a convienence store shot and killed 2 adults and 3 kids. These ILLEGALS were caught, but instead of facing trial for murder they got deported back to Mexico WITH NO FINES and were back in the US a year later. If you need proof I'll scan the newspaper article for you.)

I know for a fact having lived in Phoenix, this is nothing new.

WTF?????????

Legal immigration is what this country was founded on and is our life blood. But ILLEGAL immigration needs to be stopped.

I have no qualms against a SHOOT TO KILL policy on the border. I figure we shoot and kill a couple illegals trying to come over.... that will deter a few of the 1000's that come over daily.

They have it so bad in Mexico, then they need to stay the fuck in Mexico and find ways to change their own damned country and not come over here, live off taxpayers and cry how we don't accommodate them or that we are prejudiced against them, or that we don't bow down and kiss their asses and wipe them as they shit all over our country.

BTW come to Akron, I'll show you the "shacks" Yoder's farms has set up for ILLEGALS.

As for "slaves" They fucking CHOSE to come here ILLEGALLY....... WTF are we supposed to do baby their fucking asses, further erode our economy and services and tax dollars to make sure they have the same rights as people who work their asses off and were born here or went through the proper systems and became LEGAL???????

If that's the case, I'll rescind my US citizenship, move to Mexico and come back ILLEGALLY....... Hell, I'd get free healthcare and people more worried about how I, as an illegal am treated than I do now as a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN. I'd get more and pay no taxes?????? Hell yeah sign me up for that.

I'm sick of the BS that "Illegals are a good thing because they take jobs no one else will and for less pay. Without them our economy would be shit."

Gee, let's see...... Billions in tax dollars for education, healthcare, use of our tax supported programs while not putting a cent into the system, while LEGEL tax paying citizens are denied these programs because they may make too much (yet not enough to truly afford the service), we see these services going bankrupt, taxes increasing, the ILLEGALS saying we need to bow down to their needs.

I just don't understand what part of ILLEGAL people (including employers and the government) do not understand. These people are ILLEGAL, they have no rights, they have no right to be employed, recieve healthcare, go to our schools, use our tax paid services. NADA, ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, THE GREAT "0". These are people committing a crime and need to be treated as the criminals they are.

If I go into a grocery store and I steal $100's of food because I am dirt poor and need to feed my family, when I get caught am I not going to jail?

Don't prices go up to make up for the store's losses I cost them?

Am I not going to have to make restitution?

No matter what the reason, am I not still breaking the law and costing people far more money?

Then why the fuck are we even having this discussion? Illegal immigrants are doing just that to our country.

ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL PURE AND SIMPLE CASE CLOSED.

pan, you're 100% dead on correct!

The recent marches regarding immigration reform agitate me. Personally I think the reform is FAR to "nice" to the illegals. If I just walked into Russia and set up shop, I'd expect to get my ass deported at least, or inprisoned at worst. You can't just do that shit. It's annoying in it's utter contempt for our country, and it's ridiculous that bleeding hearts out there think these CRIMINALS and MISCREANTS (which is what they are, not because of their heritage or background, but because they are BREAKING THE LAW) deserve so much love and compassion. Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!

need a solution to the border? two words: land mines

For the first time ever I'm 100% with Pan and Xephyrs.

1. Land mines? Really? Hm. I wonder how you'd feel about that if it'd been YOUR ancestors that everyone wanted to kick out. Do you think they were all here perfectly legally? Have you not noticed the increasing bureacracy and bullshit hoops people have to jump through to become citizens of our country?

2. Of course laws are supposed to get changed with protesting and walk outs. What else is the point of protesting if there are never any results? It's a basic tenet of American principles!

3. The laws need CHANGING. Do you have any idea what it's like? ANY IDEA? Between the government's pisspoor planning and inability to streamline any sort of processing, and the plethora of ridiculously bad legal advice, people are getting screwed left and right, no matter what.

4. If you made FOUR DOLLARS AN HOUR, you would qualify for free health care and no taxes too. Except all those sales tax items, of course.

5. Ask the businesses that hire illegals if they would rather hire legally. Ask 'em if they want to start paying at least the (ridiculously low) minimum wage. Ask if they want to pay taxes and unemployment insurance and FICA on legals rather than paying nothing to illegals.

Let me quote a recent article I wrote on this very subject:
Now imagine someone who just needs a job, has very little literacy, and has no help with this process attempting to become a legal resident of the United States. And before you start making cracks about foreigners not being able to read/write in English, let me remind you that 1: there is no Official Language in the US (and a good thing for many of our forebears); and 2: Many born Americans are unable to read/write enough to handle a process like this.

So, in essence, get off your highhorses. We live in a glass house here, and we shouldn't be so quick to throw stones.

Yes, really. As opposed to a manned wall with armed guards shooting to kill, or some other prohibitively expensive solution. We have the landmines made and ready so the costs would be small. We'd only need to mine the border maybe 300 yards wide. Land mines would give the same result as border guards with shoot to kill orders for a fraction of the price.
Yeah, they were all here legally, seeing how they didn't break any laws to get in.
We vote. The whole point of protesting is to miss school and work and maybe feel as if they are taking part in something big.
So your solution is amnsety? Fine. then I want amnesty from the next 5 years of tax payments. Why should someone who BROKE THE LAW to get here receive amnesty and I shouldn't?

I think the key idea you express is that they are coming from poor conditions and want a better life. The problem I have with amnesty and/or open borders is when is enough, enough? The immigration pressure from the south is just going to keep getting worse, they have a huge population explosion and horrible poverty.

What do we do when the illegal number goes from 10 million to 50 million or 100 million? If we don't secure the border then eventually we have no separate country.

So what are you saying, the 1000's of LEGAL immigrants, that come into our country LEGALLY and have worked hard to do so are idiots because it would have been easier for them to just come in ILLEGALLY.

I have no qualms about LEGAL immigration, and yes, I can show you the Ellis Island papers from my great grandmother. All my ancestors came LEGALLY, and when they got here most were persecuted.... Irish/German/Italian/Dutch/Welsh is my background. hmmmmm None in that group were discriminated against in anyway, were they now?

So exactly what high horse am I on? That my ancestors came here legally, learned english, didn't cry injustice because the government and the communities refused to turn everything into "their" language, that my ancestors became proud citizens of the US assimilated and worked hard to make sure their progeny were "American"?

Laws changed and made it harder to become LEGAL..... so what?

YOU want me to believe it's ok to still break the law because it isn't fair to dirtbags who cross over ILLEGALLY and have no desire to assimilate into our country or to even attempt to become LEGAL citizens?????

Jess, ya know I agree with ya more than I disagree and I am fairly liberal. But my liberal views end right about here.

ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL PERIOD, END OF STORY.

Again, if it is so fucking horrid in Mexico maybe these people should be revolting against their own government and working harder to improve their country.

Instead, they choose they easy way and ILLEGALLY come into our country sponging off our system, using our tax dollars and expecting us to wipe their asses as they shit on our country.

Maybe our wages would go up and those out of work could find jobs (oooo yeah they take jobs no one else wants except maybe college kids or people who would truly like to work and get a start, or teens saving for college, or people who need to make some extra money in this economy that is booming because we hire illegals to do work "no one else will" as they destroy our tax based services.)

Not naive, I have seen this first hand and it is wrong.

Maybe if we didn't hire ILLEGALS and prices went up, more people would have to raise issue about the wage gaps between the workers and the CEO's. Maybe just maybe the economy would truly start healing if we turned ILLEGALS away.

And the people that hire ILLEGALS should be fined heavily and put into jail for conspiracy to defraud the government from it's taxes (wages and such) and perhaps if we made the punishments stiff enough they won't be hiring these ILLEGALS.

And the bleeding hearts that like lambs follow blindly saying "ILLEGALS deserve a chance", should talk with the families of people killed by illegals who watched the illegals get "punished" by being deported and coming back illegally.

No matter how you slice it, it's wrong.

Right. :rolleyes: Because that would be such a good idea, killing harmless people for coming too close to the border. It's always a grand plan to just kill anyone who's too annoying or might cost a bit of money.

/end sarcasm
Really? Not one of your family members has ever broken any laws, least of all to get to the U.S.? You're 100% pure-blooded Native American, are you?

The whole point of protesting is to give a voice to what is not being voiced. It's freedom of speech. If your family were in danger of being ripped apart, you would be out there protesting too. If the "liberals" were in charge and handing out charity money hand over fist, you'd be protesting too. Voting is not the only way to voice your dissent.

1. What does that have to do with ANYTHING? My solution is NOT amnesty. It's reform. Some people should be kicked out, some should not. Either way, the laws need serious overhauling and rewriting. If we gave them a chance to be contributing citizens making a decent wage, they would be fine with paying taxes too.

2. THE LAW NEEDS TO BE CHANGED, THAT'S WHY THEY SHOULD RECEIVE AMNESTY. If you broke a law, and it was a poorly written/executed law, and you were caught and punished for it... but then they suddenly got a clue and revised that law... wouldn't you expect that you shouldn't be punished for it anymore?

Damn I find myself agreeing with Stevo and have Mojo saying he agrees 100% with me?????? While JustJess, Will and I are at odds?

Must be a full moon.

I really don't get why people infer the Native Americans in the debate, as it has zero place or relevance. Not to threadjack, but people need to realize the Natives did live here, and then the honkies came and conquered and took the land. We made it our own, we established laws as a sovereign nation state, the Indians never did; so again to reiterate, one of the most perposterous arguements ever in this debate.

The problem I have with illegal=illegal is that there are lots of example when the law and 'what's right' have been on opposite sides. I think that is a lazy argument, that doesn't bring much to the table to help solve the problem.

I also think that "love IS the answer", trite as that statement is. And that's my basic problem with landmines and the violent rhetoric. Doesn't really bring much to the table, either.

I think JustJess said it pretty well with points 1 & 2 at the end of that post 41. If the system is clearly broken, it's going to take a different order of thinking to solve it. That rarely happens without making some group unhappy. Shutting the border tight doesn't solve the problem on our side of it. So that just doesn't seem practical to me...

^^ My point is that everyone was new at some point. Everyone.

I am with Pan 100%. We can't change our legal system just because a group of people broke the law and don't want the natural consequences of their actions. The idea that we should declare amnesty is a prime example of a slippery slope. What other laws will become null and void? Where do we draw the line?

For a law to be fair it must apply equally to everyone and be within the grasp of everyone to obey it. That is the measure of a fair law. The fairness of a law is not defined by those who choose to break it, of course they'll think it's unfair.

How can we seriously say that since some of our ancestors may have come to this country illegally that we should continue to allow or even facilitate people to come in illegally. That amounts to the same argument I'd get in grade school of "everyone else is doing it"

My great great grandfather was a bank robber, he made a lot of money and never got caught. He even became a US Marshall in the Indian Territories. As Marshall he did a lot of good. He was only able to become a marshall because he owned land and cattle that he had purchased with stolen money. Perhaps I should become a bank robber. After all my great great grandfather did it. Or maybe we should declare amnesty to bank robbers, as long as they say that they are doing it to help their families.

The fact that people are crossing our borders in secrecy is evidence that they know they are breaking the law. That being the case, they know that if or when they are caught they will have to pay. Instead of having enough moral strength to admit they were wrong and accept the due punishment, they protest. They cry in the street. They get their freinds and family to threaten our politicians with their jobs if they don't save their miscreant associates.

If a law isn't being enforced you don't scrap the law, you reform the manner in which the law is enforced. Usually that means stronger deterants, and increased vigilance.

1. Landmines work. They've worked in Europe for years. And in Korea as well. I HAVE notice the increasing beauracracy... and it's ALL caused by requests to reform and grant more rights to more people who are not citizens of our country. I think it should be concise, simple and clear. There is a process, Process A, that one can go through to ATTEMPT to gain citizenship to the United States of America. If you come over under any pretense other than a successful attempt at Process A (or the requisite work/study visa) then you are in violation of federal law and will be imprisoned and tried as an assailant on our country. Sound harsh? Good! It should be harsh to commit such violations against a country and it's people.

2. Protests used to work... a long long time ago. The Times they are 'a changin' I think the old addage goes. There were protests regarding reform here in Phoenix twice... both times they were during the business day, disrupted traffic and businesses. What a grand way to get people to side with you. Personally, I said fuck 'em before all of that bullshit. Fuck 'em double now!

3. Yes, they need changing. See point 1 above.

4. Hmmm, well that's below minimum wage. You know how immigrants can make sure they make minimum wage or greater? Come here legally, get a social security number and get a legit job. They may very well still be eligible for Medicare/Medicaid and even food stamps, but at least they'd be contributing to the system! Taxes, SS input plus additional from employer matches for required funds? THAT'S how the system is designed to work.

5. First of all, those businesses probably wouldn't want to hire legal workers because they cost more. Their desires do not trump law. Let's look at large corporation... I bet Enron was happier before anyone knew they were doing illegal shit with their books. Oops!


Yes, everyone was new, if Mexico wants to WAGE WAR against the United States in an attempt to take over political control of our country, I welcome such a nifty diversion. Alas, that is not the case. There are a few individuals that are sneaking into the country and sponging off the system. Comparing that to the native americans and european settlers/combatants is not even remotely similar.

Also, the ancestors argument is ignorant, and frankly anti-American. It's a sentiment that is sadly shared by a large number of people. The ancestors argument is why Native Americans (I myself have Lacota blookd running through my veins) get free education, free hunting rights, and allowances that the rest of us are not. A few generations ago I can see it, but today, it's just as much bullshit as amnesty for illegal immigrants. I have English blood in me too, I may have had ancestors that owned black slaves. You know what? That's not MY fucking problem. I don't have black slaves. I DO have black friends. Why in the name of sanity should ANYONE be held accountable for the actions of their ancestors? Are we going to ostricize Germans because of Hitler? That's JUST as stupid as your argument.

As a clarification, I am not attacking you nor am I calling you, yourself, stupid. I am simply disagreeing vehemently with your logic.

The laws in place serve no purpose, so they should be changed. Yes, it is currently illegal for a Mexican to cross the border without permission in order to not starve to death. It's a misdemeanor to shoot at any kind of game from a moving vehicle, unless the target is a whale in the state of California.

Some laws are dated, and need to be repaired or replaced. To say "I want them to leave because they're breaking the law!!!" is not actually stating a reason. If you want to make an argument, make it on it's merrits. Make the social argument. Make the economic argument. Even make a moral argument. Saying they should be gone because it's illegal is like saying the reason the sky is blue is because the sky is blue.

Uhm... we have homeless people with no jobs whatsoever in the US and they manage to live. In fact, some are downright fat. If you have NO skills, NO job and NO ability to gain a job, you are NOT above eating food wherever you can get it. It is not my fault that their country sucks massive amounts of ass. There is a process to come here legally. If they cannot respect the laws of my country, I have no cause to respect them or their situation.

A good friend of mine was homeless for 4 years. I would suggest that you have a friendship with or become homeless before you discuss it with any level of confidence. You disrespect every man, woman, and child who is homeless with your ascertion that it is easy to stay alive when you are homeless. Do you know why some homeless people are fat? McDonalds, Burgerking, Taco Bell. Take your pic. How often do you see homeless people in a supermarket versus how often you see them in fast food places? Add that with the lethargy of living a few feet from where you stand every day, and you're not living the life of good health.

Yes, Mexico doesn't heva the ecomeny to support their populace. Guess what? It's as much our fault as it is theirs. Everything from NAFTA to the vast wealth inequalities has brought the poor in Mexico to NEED the option of illegally crossing the border. So yes, it is your fault. It's my fault. It's the fault of every voting or nonvoting American for supporting politicians or not stopping politicians who are responsible.

I don't respect the law that makes immigration illegal, so should you respect me?

I understabd exactly why they're fat. I understand that food that comes from refuse of the general public is not a fantastic way to survive. However, my point was, again, that there are OPTIONS, and that if you have NOTHING, you are not above such a feat to live. If I had absolutely nothing, I would not consider myself above dumpster diving for food. While it's a far cry from my typical Sunday trip to Whole Foods, circumstances are only what they are. I have neither respect, nor disrespect for people who are homeless. Some people choose the life. Some people have nothing else. It is what it is.

No, it's not my fault. It's not my fault that the Mexican economy is poor. It is not my fault that they illegally cross the border. That argument is like saying it's our fault that there is high crime in inner-city areas because of white opression of American black people. Bullshit! If a thug pops a gangsta, it's no more my fault than a Mexican hoping the border. I refuse to accept responsibility for the illegal actions of others. If you feel it's your duty to wallow in pity for those around you, feel free, but I cannot shoulder that particular fate of society.

And it is because no one wants to take responsibility for the Mexican econemy that the problem may never be solved.

Mexicasns do not have the option of surviving on the kindness of strangers in the same way that the US homeless people sometimes can. The disposable income in the US is staggering, so it can sustain a small homeless population. Mexico is not the US. You cannot survive in Mexico the same way you survive in the US. Mexicco is more violent, the police aren't as friendly, the military is downright frightening, and there aren't rich people in SUVs driving their kids to soccer practice all the time. There are many places in Mexico that are comparable to hell. Places that would make the worst slums in the US seem like a gated community for millionairs.

BTW, I don't wallow in pity, I take action to help those who neeed help. Call it a savoir complex if you want, but I will die knowing that I helped hundreds, perhaps thousands of people in my life (or more, I don't really keep count). I'm not trying to hold that over you or anything, but if you want to know what goes through my head...I want to help those who need help. If helping them means inconveniencing a few people, so be it. I love my country, but the world comes first.

It has nothing to do with WANTING to take responsibility. What have I, personally, done to disservice the Mexican people as a whole and cause them to illegally violate the borders of my country? Last I checked, nothing.

And I agree, helping people is a wonderful thing. However, I prefer to help people who deserve it, and criminals do not.

Complacency can be a horrible crime. It's easy to say something isn't your problem until it ends up at your front door (or mowing your front yard). It is our problem not only because they are our neighbors and we can afford to help them, but becuase it's the right thing to do. Now we see what happens when an absurd war on drugs coupled with trade agreements that favor the ultra rich do in effecting a poor country. This is our problem. A truely democratic society is responsible for the actions of it's leaders. If we cannot control them, then they should be overthrown.
So because they break one law they don't deserve any help? Don't you think that's cruel? What if a jay walker was hit by a car? Wouldn't you call an abulance?

a) Jay-walking is not illegal everywhere, and is certainly not a federal crime. I think comparing jaywalkers to border jumpers is like comparing the school bully to a murderer-rapist.

b) I agree that complacency is a terrible thing. However, much of the issues that damaged Mexico happened long before I could vote, or really had any clue what was going on. What I do, as my part of a democratic republic, is vote for the leaders I believe will do the best job. Bush has an all time low rating, and evenr Republicans are starting to talk out against him... I still don't see him being impeached.

The concept that we can change so much because we're in a democracy is a bit self-centered and ridiculous. The reality of it is that we have very little control over what our leaders do, and even less ability to "overthrow" them than our predecessors. It's all about the vote. Then there are those, like the Minutemen, who are actively fighting for what they believe. Kudos to them! In fact, I'd rather someone fight for what I disagree with than to do nothing at all.

The point is, I did not wage a war on drugs, and I did not vote for those that did. However, I cannot remove people from government or make those things better. I make decent money, but not enough to pull families out of poverty. I have my own family to worry about. And since I pay taxes that are supposed to help my fellow Americans in need (who I'd prefer to help BEFORE helping people from other countries*), I'd prefer it serve it's purpose rather than being bilked by people who are, again, illegally in the country.

* This is an interesting sidenote. We have homeless, poor, starving and undereducated people in the US, yet Americans donate MILLIONS of dollars each year to feed, cloth, shelter and educate those abroad. That's ass backwards. For a democratic country to start helping their neighbors, they should fix themselves first.

I'm really confused as to why this keeps coming up. Immigrants generally come here to work, not to be homeless on the streets. If they can jobs in a society that says it is illegal for them to work, why don't we value that work ethic and resourcefulness? But what does it have to do with allegedly fat homeless people who are scraping by off of scraps, charity, and government assistance?

'tis true.

I don't feel guilty one bit for how life is in mexico, or any other country, nor should I. I live my life, pay my taxes, take care of my family and contribute to society. So I'll jsut reiterate, If illegals get amnsety I want amnesty too. Its only fair. If illegals are granted amnesty its because that whats deemed "fair" so how is it fair that they gat amnesty and I don't. fair is fair, see.

The point, my tuberific friend, is that we already have a bad state of affairs here in the US, by and large in metro cities, without MORE people coming into the country that will require social aid. When homeless people go to the hospital, they get treated, but they do not pay, we pay. When homeless people get drunk and disorderly (not that they all do), they go to jail and we pay (they aren't paying taxes to keep police employed, we are). These are just a couple of examples, and it's not just homeless people. We have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people taking advantage of medicare/medicaid, many of whom have not put their fair share into the pot. We have a large number of social programs that you and I pay for that are used by people who have NOT paid for them. Adding more people into the mix that need to withdraw from those programs, but do not deposit into them means it hurts us, the legal, working, tax-paying citizens of this country. I'm really confused why some people don't understand that. We have ENOUGH problems at home... let's fix them before worrying about the poor people down the street. It's like this... say you live in Detroit and you're a good person. One day you come across a decent sum of money and want to help people. Do you invest the money back into Detroit, where your friends and family live, where you know the guy that owns the party store or gas station, or do you take the money and put it into immprovements in Atlanta? Most people would invest in their OWN community by choice. That's the point I'm trying to make. We're worried abouit reforms to help foreigners. What about reforms to help US?! Fuck the mexicans until social security is fixed. Screw them until we don't have massive poverty in our inner cities. To hell with offering spanish language courses at high schools until US literacy is the best in the world. *sigh* I just don't get it...

Why do we bend over backwards to "help" illegal immigrants? Why does Los Angeles have spanish-language classes? Have more ESL classes, and then they can graduate only by taking the normal englihs classes after a year or two. I had a friend who moved here from Germany in elementary school. He was too young to have really learned Enligh back in Germany. When they moved here, his father put him in a special school to TEACH him English, then in fourth grade he came to my school and learned just as well as everyone else. I highly doubt Mexicans are any less capable... they just don't WANT to do it for the most part. Well, fuck 'em then! That makes it even worse. Now people are paying higher taxes to support MORE teachers so that lazy fucking illegal people don't have to be bothered with learning English. Bullshit!

Again, I have nothing against Hispanics. Mexicans are great. They're welcome to come here legally, get a job, pay taxes and come over to my place for dinner. That's awesome. They are not, however, welcome to unlawfully invade my country, demand benefits and social services, and not contribute to the economic well being of my country. But, that's just me...

Again I point to these 2 examples that the (for use of terminology only) Illegals advocates seem to ignore and not address.


So why are you advocates ignoring the facts?

Are you eager to watch these ILLEGALS abuse our system set aside for taxpayers so that the system is truly no longer there?

Are you so eager to see $1 BILLION of our tax dollars go to hospitals so that these ILLEGALS can get free medical while people like myself who work their asses off are forced to near bankruptcy?

Are you eager to see these scumbags sue and take up precious tax dollars and court time suing the government because we don't accomodate their language?

Where does it end?

I'm liberal, I'm a hippy John Lennon follower in most aspects but there has to come a time when for the good of my children and their progeny I have to take a stand and say, "ENOUGH, This is wrong and there is no excuse for it."

That time has come.

I see arguments that NAFTA has made the Mexican economy bad. I see people on here blaming the US for the Mexican economy.

Ignorance. Mexico has NEVER had a strong economy and has always been in turmoil of some sort. IT IS NOT OUR FAULT AND IT IS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO ABSORB THEIR PEOPLES.

Hell, our own economy is on an extremely shaky ground...... we cannot absorb these ILLEGALS and expect our economy to stay healthy. What happens when these parasites destroy our economy? Is Mexico going to absorb us as illegals into their country? Is Mexico going to bend down and kiss our ass and wipe it for us as we shit on their system, like so many ILLEGALS do here to us?

I find it sad that some of my fellow liberals whom I agree with much more than I disagree with use opposite arguments to serve their purpose.

On one side they argue we are not responsible for other countries have no right to go in and take someone's sovereignty and are spending way too much on a war that we should never have gotten into.

Then in the next breath all those points get warped and turned the other way to support ILLEGALS. All of a sudden we ARE responsible for other countries, we MUST stabilize Mexico, the ILLEGALS HAVE RIGHTS to BILLIONS of our tax dollars and to destroy the system for those who were born here, work hard and pay taxes.... in fact we don't spend enough on them now.

Doesn't anyone else see the hypocrasy, insanity and just plain stupidity in any of this?

These ILLEGAL advocates seem to see nothing wrong with the ILLEGALS refusal to even attempt to assimilate into our culture. They seem to believe it is OUR responsibility to change our culture to suit these ILLEGALS.

My ancestors did not expect the US to bow down and change culture to suit them...... Rather they worked hard to assimilate into the American system and become American. Not German-American, not Irish-American, or Italian-American.... they became US American citizens and were proud to do so.

I have come to the conclusion that we have worked so hard not to offend anyone, to bend over backward to accomodate everyone and to try to help everyone but ourselves that we have all gone insane and destroyed our great country and what it once stood for.

There comes a time when you have to step away from helping others and look deep within to make sure that you haven't given up so much that you have nothing left.

It's like my job, when I first started I was eager to give and give and give to people..... but then I kept seeing the same people and they weren't progressing and they were looking for me to give more and when I couldn't because I just didn't have it to give they focussed on what I couldn't give them and not on what I had given.

So they complained that I didn't care and whatever. It got to the point I nearly burnt out. But instead I realized...... I can give all I can but in the end I have to maintain what is best for me and stay true to myself.

So I give all I can but I no longer give to the point of my sanity, values and morals. I suggest some others look deep within themselves and find out why they feel the need to give away more than they have to appease people committing ILLEGAL acts and using our system to suit what they want as they take and take but refuse to put anything back into it.

It's like the rich in this country, they are the opposite. They take and take and rape the system and the workers and put as little as possible back into the system. And complain the whole time.

Surely we can find a common area where ALL can survive together and there is enough for everyone.

Then and only then can we even think about giving to ILLEGALS and work to absorb them, but first and foremost we must clean and fix our own house before we do.

I dont post often and usually dont agree with most things you say pan, but that last post was excellent!

I read this:

And then your signature:
It makes my head spin, but maybe it's just me...

I can see why. But in all honesty until we fix our country and make it healthy enough to absorb these ILLEGALS, we are doing no one any good. The people coming, our progeny or ourselves.

Right now our economic system is broken and unless we fix it the flood of ILLEGALS will in time add to the total destruction of the system we have had that is so great.

How can YOU and my fellow Dems. sit there and argue that "ILLEGALS" are good for the system that in the next breath you say is near colapse????

It's hypocrasy and foolishness and loses many many voters and the people needed to support and elect the party.

Lennon while he believed in the people also believed that people should feed the system and make it better. ILLEGAL immigration no matter how you try to make it sound and look is still ILLEGAL and is destroying the system not adding to it.

BTW nice change of subject and avoidance of the topic at hand.

No change of the subject, just an observation. For the most part I agree with what you say, things need to change. I just reacted at your claim to not have any problems with killing people trying to get into your country. I hope you're not serious about that because if you are it truly sickens me.

I think we should have a shoot to kill policy on the border. I'm not FOR shooting people, but if it's known that that is our policy, they've taken that chance into their own hands. *shrug*

i had written a post that went point by point through some of the arguments above but i deleted itmostly because i decided it was dignifying with a serious response arguments that do not merit one. putting landmines along the border to aim folk who try to cross without---well what, really? you think landmines discriminate between folk who are properly documented and those who arent? you think landmines ask questions before they take off someone's legs or worse? shoot to kill on the border? in what context can you even propose this kind of thing, much less take it seriously?

truly vile stuff, folks.

If you have a very clearly marked "No Man's Land" then that would be in the context that it's said. You make very clear places for en trances and exits out of the country and having one go off wouldn't be a mistake. When you have a place clearly marked that there are land mines, well, unless you're really stupid properly documented immigrants wouldn't be walking through then, and illegals won't have the ability to walk across on pain of death. They would know better.

Of course, I think the idea is lunacy and would never personally condone it, but in some sense it's not a completely insane idea.

Not vile at all... no moreso than owning a pistol for protecting your home. First of all, why would LEGAL immigrants be crossing in the wilderness over fences and through minefields? Nobody said to lay mine down at the patrolled roadways between the countries. Mines shouldn't discriminate... they're there to prevent people from BEING in that area. If someone wants to risk it, that's a choice they make.

Shoot to kill on the border makes perfect sense. Other countries have done in since they came into existance. And doing so is not counter the American beliefs of basis. I don't understand how this can be a bad thing. What if it were to protect us from terrorists? If it would be okay then, then you are simply splitting hairs. If you still feel it's bad, than you are too liberal for my taste.

People who belong here have a legal and safe means by which to get here. Otherwise, a big "NO TRESPASSING" sign isn't going to cut it with those who come here unlawfully. Is it not okay to "shoot to kill" around the perimeter of a military installation? Again, if you feel this IS okay, then you should lay out your standards for when it is/is not okay. If you do NOT feel this is acceptable, well... then I don't understand you at all...

Is it ok to have ILLEGALS come here and kill our tax-paying citizens and their families or steal from them, only to have their only punishment a deportation back to Mexico, where they cross the border again and are back within months??????

It's ok for them to kill us and to get off with nothing and have our own people cry about how badly we treat them. Yet when anyone points out what the reality is that these people are criminals and should be treated as such, those people are ignored.

And again, I notice my friends to the left have totally ignored any argument I have given them.

Amazing.

I noticed it right away, but I've been noticing that aspect of the left for years.

The Right on this board is just as guilty in other areas..... but I refuse to let the Left slide and not face legitimate points on this issue. I don't allow the Right to.

If this were any other issue, say, against the Iraq War for instance, and I brought up good valid debateable points and the Right ignored them, these same people would be using that as proof that the Right didn't have a leg to stand on and were scared to debate the topic.

This is a place where the Left faces that problem. They are not in the majority, they refuse to debate good valid points and they twist arguments to suit their need (as shown previously, the arguments they use against the war, are the same they use FOR illegal immigration).

It's not new and both sides do it hoping the vast majority of people won't catch on. And the big problem is they are right, the majority of their party blindly follows what their leaders say, regardless of what the truth and common sense dictates.

Hmmmm..... think that would make a good topic.

// End threadjack as I await any rebuttals to the topic of why ILLEGALS should be allowed into this country.

It's a valid observation.

I am not truly an advocate of ANY form of murder or killing, but something needs to be done to stop this insane flow of ILLEGALS.

"Shoot to kill" would be a very good deterrent and a short term solution.

Changing immigration laws to suit these people, again, just a short term deterrent.

The ONLY true solution is to get the Mexican government responsive to it's peoples. But given the history of Mexico I don't see that happening.

pan: there are a few reasons why i have difficulty taking your positions seriously except insofar as it reflects your immediate opinion (that is your arguments bear on your particular situation in a way that is not really political, in that it is not and cannot be generalized without thinking more about how you link your opinion to some larger context)....

1. you do not seem to have considered the matter of definition. you are complaining about a population that seems to me parts of migrant labor pools---which are basically diferent from immigration---- in that reverse migration--that is, going back--is much more central to undocumented pools [so far as the data have seen can determine]--you could even wonder if these folk are "immigrants" at all--or whether there is some ideological function to classifying them in this manner--you know, just as there is an obvious ideological aspect to calling them ILLEGAL immigrants as opposed to, say, undocumented workers--which is both more accurate and less inflammatory. but if you referred to them as undocumented workers, the rest of your association would fall apart, so no wonder you prefer the more incorrect and inflammatory term.

2. your posts do not take the role of empoyers in the states into account.
the employers create the pool, pan.
folk come here to work.
migrant workers come here to work.
most send money back to where they come from, come here for a limited period and plan to return--or would, unless idiotic plans like "shoot to kill" at the border operates to trap the populations here that you complain about. (so much for the reasonableness of that goofball scheme.) anyway, the driver of these pools--their scope and density of activity---is employers in the states.
it is not the fact that people come into these pools--it is that these pools are viable sources of cheap, unorganized labor for firms--which operate in a political context that sanctions all such actions (e.g. the creation of labor markets for undocumented workers) implicitly under the rubric of a "rational" quest for increased profit.

in a general sense, you have to link the pull of these labor markets in the states to another broader context, which is the--um---uneven development north/south that shapes the reality of globalizing capitalism. but you said earlier--along with stevo no less--that you do not care about the economies of other places. to my mind that means you do not care about even trying to think about this topic--you prefer to vent. feel free--but dont expect folk who disagree with you to waste their time trying to take seriously the way in which you do it.

3. if you incorporate the simple fact of the matter--that migrant labor pools exist because firms create the demand for the workers--then extending the problems, such as they are, that are generated by the existence of these pools into the logic of old-school captialist-style class warfare is pretty easy.

and bvy refusing to think in this direction, you fall straight into one of the oldest types of class warfare--setting one group of exploited folk against another. the americans love that shit--think reconstruction. but we are not alone--you have a truly sorry history of the diversion of petit bourgeois resentment into truly foul political actions in western europe--think the entire history of lovely radical nationalist movements--to avoid being explicitly inflammatory- look into poujadisme in france, or the fron national, or the politics of heider in austria, the bnp in the uk....you'll see.

since you exclude critical factors from consideration, your views end up tracking into very strange ground, pan---i have other stuff to do so will defer going into this--but if you look at the front national or bnp, you'll get a fair idea of what i think of this politics you are working out for yourself.

the abbreviated version: i do not find the way in which you, and your temporary (far-right) colleagues above frame the question of migrant workers, documented or otherwise, to even be coherent. so you should not be surprised that there is no real interest in engaging you across your frame of reference. you act as though you have thought out and resolved questions before you begin to write stuff that so far as i can tell you havent even posed logically. then you get snippy that folk do not respond directly to your "points"--which are wholly knit into a framework that is in itself not coherent, so far as i am concerned.

roachboy, are you serious?

It's more accurate? Hmm, yes, many of them DO work, however the lack of "documentation" proves their illegal status. That "documentation" they do not have is a social security card or a work visa, the two things that allow people to LEGALLY work in the United States. Also, they are here without proper doucments (stamped passports) and they are from another sovereign country, which makes them immigrants who are not here legally (when you take a business trip, you still get immigration/emigration stamps in your passport... those words have rather specific meanings). So how is illegal immigrant not accurate even by a smidge? Also, they don't ALL work. So, no, "undomuneted worker" is NOT more accurate. And as for inflamatory, well... that's splitting hairs.

Your point #2 does not hold up either. First of all, in our country consumers create work pools, not employers. If people didn't eat oranges and didn't drink orange juice, the orange farmers would have no need for additional, cheap labor. People, however, DO drink OJ and eat oranges and oragne flavored things. So citrus farmers need more people to pick fruits out of trees. They CHOOSE to illegally employ "undocumented workers of an unlawful immigration status". They CHOOSE to pay them cash under the table. They CHOOSE to not pay taxes, social security/FICA and the like on those workers pay. The employers CHOOSE to break the law and so do the illegal workers. Also, no, most do NOT "plan to return". Somehow they make a few thousand dollars, send it home to their families over MANY months and then go home to blow through it for a while and then come back in a few years? Obviously you've never lived in the southwest. They come here to make money, send some back and then pay coyotes to sneak relatives across the border. It happens every day and every night. Where do you get your information from? Most of it, so far in this thread, has been bad or false.

#3... "old-school capitalist-style class warfare"... Hmmm, well yes, there's nothing really "old school" about the capitalist class system we have in the US. It still exists as strongly today as it did 200 years ago. It dones't prevent these "work pools" from being ILLEGAL. If businesses are not punished as well, we will still have problems. Several people, including myself, have suggested STEEP punishments for companies who hire "undocumented workers of an illegal nature". I'm sorry, perhaps it'd be even less inflamatory if we called them "Undocumented Americans". Yes, that sounds much more liberal and supportive. Even though they aren't Americans. But, pishaw... that's just a small issue.

At any rate, even though pan and I are not usually on the same side of things, I have to say that he's more or less dead on. Your arguments don't really have any bearing on reality. While they are, to some degree TRUE (work pools exist, capitalism creates classes, et cetera), they are useless in the context of this thread. I think you're grasping at straw.

Also...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/20/im...ids/index.html

It's not just mexicans, it's ALL illegal workers. Sadly, around here illegal immigrant = mexican, but that's surely not the case throughout the country, and they ALL need to be treated the same... as ILLEGALS!

xephyrx: you were the one proposing shooting people at the border for trying to cross. so that really positions you as an interlocutor in this conversation. worse, you seem to confuse killing people who try to get work in the states without documentation with a reasonable response to a problem that you appear to not understand.

you provide no compelling argument against my offering a counter terminology. you dont even see a choice in the terminology. all i said was that it is false to call these folk immigrants, in the main, because of the overwhelming role of reverse migration.
you offer no information to counter the claim, preferring instead to wave your hands and act as though reality is dispelled thereby. whatever. and then, after you do not address the point, you wander away into the realm of false analogy.

this kind of thinking may persuade others who share your politics--but if you seriously want to persuade folk who are not in accord with how you frame this question, you really should work a little harder logic and information-wise.

the bypassing of employers in your next point is simply bizarre. behind it seems to lurk the kind of reductive-to-the-point-of-surrealism econ 101 models that make of firms simply agents that respond to consumer demand.
there is a long long list of problems with this kind of reductio-ad-absurdum modelling of economic activity. starting in on them would constitute a threadjack, i think.

anyway, you effectively concede as much yourself, when you move (apparently unmotivated logically, but perhaps as a function of the weakness of your general position) to a series of points that target firms and their actions directly.

but let's say, hypothetically, that there is something to your second point. the consequence of it would be to organize consumer boycotts, to organize protest actions that would be aimed at forcing firms to change their actions--or, if your politics really do prevent you from imagining that capital can ne anything other than totally rational--changing demand patterns. either way, nothing in what you say functions to support your fundamentally repellent views on migrant/undocumented workers themselves. and there is nothing AT ALL in your arguments that would get you even close to a legitimation for a campaign of state-sanctioned massacre on the borders.

third: when i said old school, you misunderstood. but whatever.

it is the logic of your own blinkered view on this matter that forces you to make a fetish of tyhe fact of your own citizenship, to move from there to constructing some kind of hallucinated community that you are afraid is being swamped by a wave of Others from far away. that you are willing to fantasize about murder on the basis of such flimsy arguments is kind of creepy.

your position is different from pan's in that i think pan has trouble embracing the implications of his position, whereas you are right there, greeting all with open arms.

btw: a side question---if you sell you labor power for a wage, you are interchangeable with anyone else who also sells their labor power for a wage. your citizenship is no magic talisman that changes that. and you would have to be an idiot to imagine that the holders of capital would care about your legal status unless they were forced to. and they arent being forced to. and nothing about politics like yours would force them to. your solution appears to be a kind of blind paranoid violence that could perhaps be differentiated from a race war or a war between linguuistic communities in your world, but in mine, the distinction is hard to find.

Roach.... we agree far more than we disagree on issues, yet you are willing to destroy any political bonding, alliance and friendship by attacking me?

SO I obviously cannot come up with my OWN opinions. I must be following someone else's lead?

That is laughable, I NEVER follow anyone else's opinion. I make my own and then I agree or disagree and if it is important enough to me, I read info, I study and if need be I'll change my opinion, but I educate myself very well before I "just" take a stand.

I see, so when I attack these supposed new friends of mine "the far right" whom, most of the time I have attacked their beliefs just as heavily, you back me and support me, but if I think for myself and have a differing view on an issue, then I am an idiot not worthy of debate?

Hmmmmm........

Is it any wonder the Dem party is done? If they can't win in Ohio or Federally this year and in '08 it's time they disband. And the attitude you imply, the elitism the snobbery, makes me abhor the political party I love.

This is supposed to be the party that accepts opposing views, can debate without relying on the "you're an idiot, so I'm ignoring you" games. I am saddened that 1 issue can show what a person truly thinks of another.

This is supposed to be a party where unlike the GOP we are allowed to have differing views on issues and still accept each other. Yet, by your post I see that is not truly the case.

But as Billy Joel sang in "SAY GOODBYE TO HOLLYWOOD" and it rings so true:


As far as the job pools, YES, the employers should be highly punished for hiring ILLEGALS, for the employers (like Yoder's who rehired the murderers) are just as guilty and should be tried for the crimes the ILLEGALS make. They should also be forced to pay the government and the hospital the bills these people run up while here.

You say I'm doing the class warfare thing?

Ummmmmm The owners and CEO's appreciate your views of believing that ILLEGALS should be here. It keeps their payrolls down so they have more profit.

But keep telling me, I'm the one involved in the prejudicial class warfare.

Guys, let's remember that it's better if discussion brings us together. What I mean is that we're not on teams, and our beliefs are defined by far more than who we attack.

Pan...settle down, man. Roach didn't "attack" you. He has a differing opinion is all. Now you know how I feel when I find myself in agreement with Ustwo. ;)
With very few exceptions, no one is totally "liberal", or totally "conservative". You have found an issue that, because of you own personal life experiences, has you sounding a little...well...conservative. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't expect your "friends" to come along for this ride. Maybe they'll catch the next bus, or the one after that...who knows. Just remember...all of the buses go to the same depot. Cool?

I agree and that is what I was trying to point out in my warped way.

That we are all individuals and on some issues every single person may have a differing viewpoint.

In fact it should be encouraged rather than attacked and treated as if the person all of a sudden is a babbling idiot.

It's how true change within parties and in society works.

I know the buses get to the same depot, but it is just amazing how interesting this is.

I have often said I am more conservative than I appear. I am very liberal but one can and should be, it allows one to see each issue that is important to them as an entity of its own and thus allow one to formulate an opinion true to themselves (if that makes any sense).

I guess I definately cannot be seen as a lamb that quietly and without question goes with the party line.

No matter what party you support, I see this as a good thing. You gotta believe what you believe for your own reasons.

Did everyone get up on the grumpy side of the bed this morning?

As the employer of someone who at one point worked for me on a tourist visa and later as straight up illegal immigrant who now has a green card (long story), I've got to tell you that not all companies that hire illegals are out to screw them. I paid my guy one of the highest wages for what he does in the city, and he worked hard for it. Believe it or not, there are times where businesses need to go outside the country to find certain kinds of workers who have skills that Americans just don't have. The government can make it very hard to get those folks here legally. Since I'm a good corporate citizen, I bought my guy health insurance and workers comp. It was a gamble as to whether or not those claims would ever get paid (if there had been any), but not all employers of illegals are out to do the wrong thing.

True...perhaps. I mean...you, obviously, are testimony for that. However, I would venture to say that you were/are the exception to the rule. I don't feel out of line by saying that I believe that most employers of illegal aliens, undocumented workers...whatever you want to call them...are out to exploit their cheap labor.
Now, let's imagine for a moment (just for my own amusement) that the labor law had teeth in it. By that, I mean that by employing an illegal alien you would be facing severe fines, and mandatory jail time...would you still have held this individual in your employ? And no, I'm not implying anything. I'm genuinly curious.

Lots of good stuff in this thread. Pan has nailed my opinion of the problem, for the most part. Xepherys too. I'm not a fan of land mines, but I like the "tax amnesty" argument of Stevo.

In another thread, I mentioned that Mexico treats its non-citizens very differently from its citizens. I had a little trouble documenting that, but then this fell into my lap:

Link

Sounds like a classic case of "Do as I say, not as I do."

I'm not going to go into details for obvious reasons. If my partners knew I was posting this, they'd probably be pissed, but that's their problem, not mine (by the way, this is for a side business, not my main line of work). However, I can tell you that in this particular industry that I'm mentioning, illegals are the rule, not the exception, at least at first. Most of the immigrants that my competitors and my company bring over generally work illegally on student or tourist visas for a while and then apply for a streamlined green card. Given who they tend to be, there's usually not a problem getting a work permit quickly if you go about it the right way. I'll agree that people outside this particular niche probably are out to exploit their workers, but that's fairly impossible in my case since it would pretty much kill the business.

As far as your hypothetical scenario goes, yes, I think that we still would have risked it. The opportunity was too great and the employee was too valuable of an asset to pass up. As it stands, he's probably responsible for increasing our net income by about 40%. So yeah, we'd still have gone after him.

Ok so those who advocate ILLEGALS, do you also advocate their being shipped across the country in semi-trailers with very little ventilation or cooling/heating, for days on end shoved in like cattle with no food or water?

This is what you are advocating.

LINK: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Southwest.../truck.bodies/


Don't like the laws, CHANGE them. But somehow I don't think the majority of Americans are going to agree with you.

A poll that show the VAST majority feel we need to limit immigration and ILLEGAL immigration is out of control. (Poll not placed here for spacial reasons)

LINK: http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

Here's a poll that says: "Americans agree (85%) that illegal immigration is a “serious” problem, and over half (55%) say it is “very serious.”

Link: http://www.npg.org/immpoll.html

Yet the Dems are trying to ease laws and the BUSHIES refuse to do anything...... why? Because as someone opposite this issue stated earlier (paraphrased) basically it is about cheap labor, jobs no one else wants, more money in the CEO's pockets and cheap prices.

But neither side cares about the loss of lives to the ILLEGALS, as I pointed out above.

Or the loss of lives the ILLEGALS have taken, as I have previously posted and this site shows:

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org...mevictims.html

Here's just a couple of the stories:


Shall I continue????????

Get the point?

How can you support this? How can you say you are the party that is for human rights yet be so fucking hypocritical?

"we have to open our borders and love these people, who cares if they come over and kill, rape, take BILLIONS of our tax dollars, recieve free medical on our tax dollar,don't pay the taxes we do, sue the government and companies for more of ouir tax dollars and the increase in costs incurred by those companies sued because they demand we become bi-lingual and they REFUSE to learn English and try to assimilate into OUR culture. We shouldn't expect them to want to learn our culture, to become US citizens legally...... NOOOOOOO we need to kiss ass and wipe it while they shit on us."

WHY?????

"Because the US is so mean to Mexico and we have soooooo much and Mexico doesn't have anything and we are just being racist, bullying, class warfared ignorant people."

Meanwhile the employers hiring these people are laughing at you as they cash their big bonus checks and increase their pay while the average US LEGAL citizen is mired in taxes, low wages, their jobs being shipped away, plants closing and so on.

All the while the vast majority of America is scratching their heads asking WTF.

But after all according to some I respected..... I am just propogating the class warfare and am uninformed and pretty mush just plain a rednecked prejudiced idiot who doesn't deserve their time for debate on such a vital issue where only THIER opinion is the right one.

I've done my best to follow this thread, but confess that much of it seems like rhetoric, not discussion. I'd be happy to discuss any argument you'd care to make, Pan. At this point, I'm not bright enough to figure out what your points are beyond: "let's get all the illegals out of our country, and not let them back in". Is that a fair description of your desire? If not, could you restate it?

Since I don't write much here, I don't think I'm who you refer to as "friends on the left", but I'd be happy to enter the fray. I suspect many of them haven't, because it's unclear what the argument is. I'm sorry to be thick, and hesitate to make you restate a position that I'm sure is clear to you, but it's all I know how to do at this point.

If you do that, I promise I'll respond to each and every one of your points. It's easier if you number them. :D

I'd hate to be part of the non responsive group...

So you were posting something while I was. And I guess I really am thick, because I don't get your point. Beyond general dissatisfaction. What ARE you advocating, pan?

Here's how I feel about illegal immigrants:

Honestly, these people do not belong in the U.S.A. Why we don't have some sort of wall or something to keep them out baffles me.
They don't have health insurance, they can't legally get jobs, they don't have car insurance. Most do not speak English, and do not try to learn it. Many are not well educated. Some do not pay taxes. Our tax money goes toward services for them (Medicaid, Food Assistance, Court systems).
Also, if it's so easy to get mexicans into the country, what's stopping terrorists?

Of course there are some illegals who work hard and pay taxes, but the majority hurt our country, unfortunately.

OK, this is the official warning to whoever pissed in Pan's cheerios to cut it out!

To repeat my original sentiment and expound on it - not all companies screw illegal immigrants, and not all illegal immigrants get here packed like sardines in trucks. My guy flew here (on his own dime). There are lots of illegals in Chicago who work as contractors - one of them was the general contractor for my old condo. They aren't all picking grapes or cleaning toilets. Some of them are out there doing jobs that American could do but maybe not as well. I can just about promise you that there's no way that ANYONE on this board could do the job that my now-legal immigrant employee as well as he can - there are probably 3 native-born Americans and 15 naturalized Americans that could. There are a shitload of immigrants, legal and illegal, that are out there doing it now - the number is probably in the high 100's.

For everyone out there using their broad brushes on this subject, stop it. You don't have the full story.

I do use a broad brush Jazz and I read your post above and commend you.

pan: i really am surprised that you took my posts as you did--and i apolgize for the aspects of them that tipped over into what you took as a personal attack. no doubt it is my fault, tone-wise.

let me explain a few things...and if this amounts to a threadjack then so be it.

1. your posts do not function in isolation in this thread--i tried to make a distinction between your positions as i understand them and those of folk like xephyrx, but maybe i didnt do an adequate job of it. you write alot about both the position you are coming to and the trouble you seem to be having squaring it with other aspects of your political positions, and i did not mean to disrespect your conflicted metaview (the problem f integration is a metaproblem--the problem concerning the undocumented or illegal is a specific area, and so is a problem)

2. there are multiple ways in which one can find an argument advanced by someone else to be a problem--one general route is internal to the postion itself, that is problems of data or category or combination/logic--another is to find the consequences of the argument repellent regardless of the internal logic of the arguments advanced. in this thread, you have folk who are advocating killing people because they---like the posters themselves---operate in the context of this economic space looking for work or having work and feeling threatened.
there is no argument that will function for me as valid that leads to any such conclusions. period.

3. you complained in an earlier post that your arguments were not being answered. so i answered them and now you complain about my having answered them. i dont really know what to do at this point about any of that.

4. this debate over the status of undocumented workers--i'll stick with this--did not originate all of a sudden in the states--it has been done over and over again in other countries--western european neo-fascist parties make the issue, framed in ways that are point for point those you see in posts by yourself (on this matter) stevo and xephryx, the center of their politics. the direction in which these arguments run has been demonstrably---um--problematic, and this repeatedly since the emergence of this latest wave of neofascist organizations across the 1980s/early 90s. this is a frame of reference that i carry into this discussion. you should look into it for yourself. the organizations are easy enough to find out about. their history and effects are easy enough to find out about as well.

thing is that reasonable folk who find themselves trying to work out responses to threats to their sense of well-being sometimes arrive at these positions by relying on "common sense" reponses--the problem is that "common sense" is usually of a piece with a very truncated view of the context that they operate in. the one advantage the western european context has over the american is that teh greater diversity of political options there means that these various positions are named, are formalized via being named, and so the implication of these positions is more evident publicly at least. in the states, with its narrow, stifling political environment, such positions often go unmarked and with that the consequences of them can be obscured.

5. similar point about naming. in other places, the folk who vilify with caps (an annoying tic--but i am sure that my dislilke for caps is also anoying, so i am in no real position to complain beyond voicing an aesthetic preference)--in france, for example, as a function of the political mobilization around the issue triggered by the actions of the front national on the part of groups like sos racisme, the discourse on the matter has been shifted--the operative category is undocumented workers, not ILLEGAL immigrants. the state has also adopted this kind of terminology as well, in part in order to prevent the kind of---um--problematic mobilizations on the question that you see starting here. these terms matter. much of what i see happening in this thread is held together by the implications of the term ILLEGAL immigrant. i posed a series of objections. they are not taken up.

Jazz, you admit you are speaking to the exception and not the rule?

If so, your point is moot. If not, you need to realize that you ARE, in fact, speaking about a far fewer number of people than we are.

First, what kind of work is it? You can PM me if you'd prefer, I'm just curious. Second, "There are a shitload of immigrants, legal and illegal, that are out there doing it now - the number is probably in the high 100's" does not have any bearing on the tens or hundreds of THOUSANDS of illegal immigrants in just a part of the US alone, let alone the whole country. One smart Peruvian illegal doesn't make up for (or really make the case for) 50,000 illegals who are NOT able to contribute so much.

I am saying ILLEGAL entry is just that ILLEGAL.

No company has the right to hire ILLEGALS as that would be aiding and abetting a criminal and since I do believe that crossing the border ILLEGALLY is a felony, it should be treated as such and anyone caught doing so or hiring ILLEGALS should be tried as felons.

(My appologies to JAZZ, but ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL.)

You want to change the laws to allow these people to come over and work legally then work to change the laws.

Those who are on here saying that we should welcome ILLEGALS and that ILLEGALS are a welcome addition to society..... are also advocating the above examples I have shown. Regardless of their intent....

I'm all for changing immigration laws IF Mexico decides to change their laws and allow us to speedily extradite murderers, rapists and so on that were here ILLEGALLY and crossed back over.

I'm all for changing the laws if we see Mexico and other Central American countries work to better their own economic and social systems.

I'm all for changing immigration laws when those who cross realize they are crossing into another country and try to assimilate and learn the laws and language of the country. Not expect everyone to bow down to them (the immigrants) and meet their demands.

I'm all for LEGAL immigration and change to the laws if the people coming are law abiding, tax paying, citizens here to honestly try to help and advance their families.

But I refuse to accept those that come over ILLEGALLY, expect us to change for them, commit crimes and sneak back over the border, use our medical systems and programs for free while taxpayers are turned away and the system goes bankrupt.

Until those criteria are met, I flatly refuse to even talk about giving "amnesty to illegals" or accept them into the society my LEGAL ancestors helped build.

Can't argue with the definition of a word. :D I would say that there are a number of things that are illegal that shouldn't be. And I'd bet you'd even agree. We can make any manner of "illegal" drugs legal as pharmecuticals, but somehow can't with cannabis. Prostitution is on my list in this category, so are some traffic laws. My point here is that we break/skirt/ignore many laws as a society. I can't back the logic of "it's the law, therefore I support it" without being a hypocrit. I need better reasons than that. And I haven't even touched the whole Civil Disobediance aspect of this - which ultimately may be more appropriate. Short version: this 'argument' holds no water for me.

I'm not sure hiring illegals is a felony. For the sake of this, I'll believe you, however. If so, are you saying that we should spend the law enforcement time/money to enforce this? Because without that focus, nothing is going to change. With that focus, other things will get lost in the cracks. Is that exchange worth it to you?

Assuming it IS a felony, I might actually be in favor of that type of prosecution. That might be the only way to highlight the issue of how much of our economy would grind to a halt without this labor. That would be a real eye opener! And that's the real problem I see with the 'keep em out' strategy.

Couldn't agree more. I'd go so far as to say ANY option to fix the problem is on the table, for me. And that includes amnesty. Better to fix it at that cost, then not fix it at all. I see no reason to cut off our nose to spite our face.

Not sure if this is a direct response to this comment or not, but:

illegals in this country do more good than harm. From construction to food production to many other industries, the benefits FAR outweigh the costs. I readily admit that is my subjective opinion, but living in a state that has a significant illegal population (Oregon), it's what I witness. I'd happily look at any studies that anyone could provide that might teach me otherwise. But in a game of 'he said/he said' I'm standing by my opinion.

Changing our laws contingent upon what other countries do seems counter productive to me. The United States has labor problems that immigrants (illegal or not) help solve. To resist fixing our problems because of a separate issue creates a bizarre and needless bottleneck. Labor issues and criminal issues are not connected, and shouldn't be tied together.

Furthermore, I question how large the criminal extradition problem is. Are we talking about more than 50 instances a year? 100? 10?

I'm sure in favor of any country working to better themselves. But I'm not holding up our progress as a country based on their actions. Why would you want to do that?

Again you seem to be talking about changing our laws IF other things happen. How about we change our laws because we have a problem that needs fixing?

And I'm not really seeing the "bowing down" thing. At all. I believe if someone is sick, a hospital should treat them. If that makes our costs go up because they can't pay, I'm prepared to live with that. Not only do the benefits of this massive labor force outweigh those costs, but I believe that's the humane thing to do. I'm not turning away sick people because they can't pay. I would need to see examples of 'demands' and 'bowing down' to understand what you mean.

I would PREFER to have people be covered medically, and be able to pay. I'm not advocating a literal free for all. But let's reform the laws and remove the issue. I'm sure in favor of collecting more taxes.

The VAST majority of people that cross illegally are just as you describe. I say that with confidence, because the vast majority of people in the world are as you describe. People working here illegally are not not paying taxes because they are trying to cheat anyone, laughing manically about how sneaky they are; but because they are hiding and don't want to be sent back.

We need the labor, and over the next 15 years as the boomers retire, we need a HUGE influx of labor. We have a problem, and it is only growing. We must find a way to fix this asap in a way that maximizes the amount of willing labor.

I understand this concern, but I think it's overstated. Certainly there are criminals. There are people that use and abuse our medical systems. Certainly there are taxpayers that are turned away from services. There is no doubt that some systems are in financial trouble. But I doubt most vehemently that illegal immigrants are a significant causal issue for those last two items. They are a convenient scapegoat, however.

The bulk of immigrants, illegal or not, are part of the solution. As they have been for 200+ years.

It's certainly your right to refuse to talk about amnesty. Seems odd to devote so much time to a message thread when your mind is so solidly made up, however. But perhaps we can agree to disagree.

There's a big difference between speeding and crossing the border illegally.

You say the argument holds no water for you, and I say that it does for me.

To me every ILLEGAL thumbs his nose at our country's laws and at those who did work hard to become legal.

It would be a great deterrent and a way to keep businesses from hiring ILLEGALS. I seriously doubt that this would "halt labor" but I'm willing to take the chance.

I am not advocating a "Keep them out" I am advocating a "keep out the lowlifes that want us to change our way of life, our language and our laws to suit them."

Amnesty won't work, and how many do you amnesty every single one of them? When and where do you stop? You are just inviting more in and you are pissing off the vast majority of LEGAL TAX PAYING CITIZENS here. It just won't work and is not feasible.

Soooooo you advocate the cheap labor and exploitation of ILLEGALS because it helps YOUR wallet. :thumbsup: But I'm the one involved in prejudice and class warfare??????? :lol:

I see. So when they do become legal, through your amnesty program and thus have to make at least minimum wages and can join unions and so on and thus they start demanding to make more and prices skyrocket, then what?

Your wallet sees less green doesn't it? You end up having your hard earned tax paying dollars go to Bi-ligualize everything and since you showed them that "we are so forgiving if you break our laws" that they feel they can get away with anything then.

I agree but ask the 1000's that have family members killed, raped, robbed and violated by illegals who simply cross back over to Mexico and face no justice.

Try 1000's and read the links I provided. 1 is too many. How many do you want?

I'm sure your attitude would change real fast if one of your close family members got violated or killed by an illegal only to know he went to Mexico and will probably crossover again.


How am I holding up the progress of our nation by not allowing ILLEGALS to be a part of it?

Again if Mexico is so bad there, then they should stay and work to change their own country, not come here use up our taxpaying resources, refuse to assimilate and sue our nation to suit their needs.

If they truly want to be here then they need to go through the processes legally and show that they respect us and our national cultures language and so on. But they flatly refuse to.

And what problem is it that we need fixed? Immigrants MUST learn our language and history before they become legal?

I see so we need to change laws for ILLEGAL immigrants needs not those of our country's citizens. :crazy:


I see so where were you when I was in the hospital in October to pay the $25,000 medical bill that is destroying my credit? And I am sure there are many more hard working taxpayers that ask you the same question.

Meanwhile congress and the President signed into law a bill giving $1 BILLION of our tax dollars to hospitals to treat ILLEGALS for FREE!!!!!!

That's fair to me and this country how?????? OOOO life isn't fair you say but then in the next breath you say OUR LAWS aren't fair to the ILLEGALS. :crazy:

I mean I'm legal, I was born here, my parents were born here, but I am not entitled to free medical because I was born here, meanwhile, ILLEGALS can get all the free medical attention they want. The tax dollars that could go into educating the youth so they can compete for better jobs, the money that could go into rebuilding the infrastructure and loans to businesses so that they can hire more people and jumpstart some economies goes to treating ILLEGALS. And you want me to believe that helps this country HOW????????

No, I'm saying they refuse to learn our language, they refuse to learn our culture, they (even if it is a small minority) break our laws knowing they get off scotfree. They refuse to even try to be a positive in our society. They drain us of our tax resources and put nothing but cheap labor, a rise in crime and apathy and hatred into the system.


Then we work on ways to increase the immigration laws to bring immigrants in legally.

How are we supposed to build a nation on people ILLEGALLY here that have no respect for our system.

I see they are cheap hard workers doing everything they can for a few pennies a day so that they can bring their families over ILLEGALLY. All the while refusing to learn our language, our history and expect us to accomodate them.

Meanwhile, people who come here LEGALLY, who have worked hard to learn our language, customs, history, traditions and laws, should have taken the easy route and just went to Mexico, jumped the border and have people crying to let them be treated as citizens without having had to show any work at all.


Check out the websites I linked to, obviously you chose not too. I also refer to the above where i addressed this.

And I have stated that LEGAL immigrants are the lifeblood of this great nation.


Why? I believe that maybe someone who was thinking amnesty was ok, may have seen what I have written and done some researcg through the links or on their own and found that maybe amnesty isn't a good thing, maybe we do need to try to stop the flow of ILLEGALS.

And yes on this topic my mind is very closed, shut tight, locked and the warden's been thrown away.

It's exploitation of the illegal, exploitation and misuse of tax dollars that could help us in many other ways, and a thumbing of the nose to all that this country stands for and expects from people coming in.

Maybe you should go to Mexico illegally and see if any of your demands are met, or see how much of their tax dollars help you in a hospital, or see what they do to you.

How many ILLEGALS have given money to help the families in New Orleans? Or volunteering to help?

I am tired of how we cannot educate and give to our own people the rights and help we have to to other countries. Meanwhile, these other countries rarely give us anything but headaches. Maybe it's time we sat back, stopped giving any money to any of these countries and took care of our own house first.

I'll break some of these topics into individual posts later, after the work is done and the kid is in bed. But for now, I'd ask you to not put so many words in my mouth.

I didn't say anyof these things, and the assumption you've made about me and your links is not correct. I know it's easier to debate with someone when they've been demonized, but how about you try to understand my point rather than just react negatively by putting words in my mouth?

Just some quick thoughts on these statements of yours:

I do not advocate cheap labor and exploitation. If we were having this conversation in person, would you say such a thing to someone? That seems inflammatory and trolling (at best). I'm the same guy that said we should serve the poor in hospitals and I'm ok with my taxes going up, remember? Does that sound like I'm concerned about my wallet?

I read all your links, and my question still stands. There are about 50 instances (I didn't do a close count) on that list. How many is that per year? Again, there is no doubt we have abuses of laws, and violence from immigrants. And it's all deplorable. I'm against it. But we have people with blue blood backgrounds shooting their 'friends' in the face and not even seeing the inside of a police station. The world sucks in many ways.

I have never said our laws are unfair to illegals. Not even sure how you got that from what I wrote. Short of me actually saying those words, it seems a stretch to assume I meant that.

I'll write more later, but for now I'd end with this: I'm sorry you're in debt. That sucks, too. My take is pretty simple: if you'd been destitute and couldn't afford whatever it was you needed, I'm in favor of medical help being provided to you. I see no difference between a sick legal person, and a sick illegal person. We should treat them. The fact that you get the debt for yours versus the 'state' getting the poor person's debt is a problem of our health care system. Not our immigration system. It sucks, but I don't believe the solution is not helping sick people. There are shades of grey, obviously, but charity hospitals have worked out some pretty humane ways of making tough choices.

More later...

The illegal argument
 

There's a lot of different thoughts going on in this thread, but to start with one...


I see you saying a number of things (pardon me for simplfying):
-illegals are illegal, therefore we should find a way to get rid of them
-illegals commit crimes, and then escape back south, so we should find a way to keep em out to avoid this
-illegals cost us taxpayers money so we should find a way to keep em out
-illegals expect more than equal services, and they pay nothing, it's not fair and we should find a way to keep em out

Again, sorry if that's a ridiculous oversimplification of your points - my getting those right or wrong doesn't really impair the point *I'm* trying to make:

I think there are a lot of valid arguments about immigration. I can agree or disagree with any of them, as can anyone of course. But the argument that means absolutely nothing to me is the "it's illegal, therefore it's illegal" line. Of the 4 things I threw down at the start of this post the last 3 are things I think could be rationally discussed.

The first bit of reasoning is junk logic to me. It's been used as a 'reason' for the some of the most horrific events in history. And a huge number of more mundane, but no less wrong events. From not employing Jews, to prohibition, to the things I mentioned in an earlier post (prostitution, pot, etc), it's held up as a reason things shouldn't happen. Hard for me to use a line of reasoning that has been shown as wrong so often. Right/wrong is ultimately a better line of reasoning than legal/illegal.

My long winded point is: why not argue about the issues - try to convince others that the costs of illegals outweigh the benefits, make the moral arguement, or whatever.

Adult Learning Theory suggests that the best way to convince an adult is to explain, not tell. And to repeatably say 'they're illegal, they should go' doesn't advance the logic, and actually does more to convince me the other way.

But maybe that's just me.