KMA-628

I am constantly amazed at the hate that spews from the anti-Bush crowd. These people can't just disagree with him, they have to come across with fire-breathing hate.

I received an e-mail from a company that I have bought playing cards from (Newt). Remember last year when the Iraqi cards came out? Well Newt was one of the companies that made the cards.

Well recently, Newt has come out with Pro-Bush Cards, Anti-Bush Cards, Pro-Kerry cards, etc. In other words, they produce these souvenir cards to cover the whole spectrum.

So, what happens. The anti-Bush crowd goes after them, completely neglecting the fact that Newt produces decks of cards whether you are Pro-Bush or Pro-Kerry. It doesn't appear that they sell Anti-Kerry cards, just anti-Bush cards.

I posted the e-mail on my website: CLICK HERE

Here are a few excerpts:

This hate, and there really is no other way to describe it, has to stop. It is not healthy for either side.

This forum is an example as well. I have seen Bush called Hitler but I never hear the opposite (not saying it didn't happen, I'm saying I haven't seen it and I hang out a lot in the Politics forum).

Equating Bush to Hitler is nothing but hate.

I am ranting, but this really has gotten out of hand.

I voted for Clinton in '92, so it is not unfeasible to think that I would vote for a Democrat. I would vote against Bush if there was a better alternative.

I will not, however, even consider a side that is so full of hate. Especially if one of the arguments to vote against Bush is because he is like Hitler.

There has got to be a way to stop this. There has got to be a way where both sides can give reasons for voting for them without demonizing the other side (BOTH SIDES ARE GUILTY OF THIS).

Neither candidate has really given me a good reason to vote for them. But I will defintely not side with hate.

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cthulu23

You can't judge a group of people by the actions and opinions of extremists. No one in Kerry's campaign has compared Bush to Hitler, and it's not a mainstream Democratic idea either. Of course, every time some asshole uttered that phrase, it was blown up all over the news.

As to political "hate speech," I have heard John Kerry called a traitor, communist and war criminal in these forums....surely you can see that your statements apply to both sides.

Edit: And let's not forget "W" ketchup!

pan6467

the hate is on both sides. You have Limbaugh calling Kerry "the French Looking Candidate" and implying he puts the UN over the US. You have the GOP attacking Teresa and her charities.

As for Hitler, I have seen Kerry compared to him, but I see more prevelant him being called "Anti-American", "unpatriotic", "commy" " a traitor who before congress dishonored 2.5 million Vietnam vets" and so on.

Since Watergate both parties and the press have taken to personal attacks and hate mongering.

The GOP can't win on the issues, they don't even try, they have to do everything possible to attack the opposition's personal life.

The Dems. have to compete with talk radio and religious right people that try to silence them.

To me, I think the hate and partisan politics are destroying the country. But I also believe the right tries to silence the left on the issues, or tries to take the issues of the left and show them as "communistic", "socialistic" and "extremely hurtful to the economy." And when you have people who call you names and won't even listen to what your proposals and are trying to silence you, you do get frustrated and angry and strike out.

I don't see the right arguing the issues and trying to do better, I see them wanting to favor big business, the rich and the ultra religious Christians and not the country as a whole. I see the GOP not having any true issues to run on (anti gay amendment the one exception) so they have try to silence, which leads to the anger and frustration on the other side.

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Halx

Ok, so what's the point? ..other than pointing fingers at others?

There is no reasoning about people. We're talking about humanity here! Making a judgement about an entire side based on the reactions of a few? That's just another example of basic human nature at work.

The grim reality: There are people who really hate Bush. They see his actions and motives to be absolutely disgusting and repulsive. Ya know.. I happen to be one of them. Now, I wouldn't go about threatening or screaming at people or companies who support him... that's just me. I don't throw in my support for anyone just because his opposition is a crazed mass of maniacs.

I wont dive on a tangent and discuss how Bush's motives in themselves are instruments of ignorance, self-importance, demagogish self-delusions and hate. Instead, I'd like to illustrate that politics are POWERFUL. They are like tangible religion. They drive people to kill other people. You're going to find hate on whatever site you choose. Some can hide it better than others, that's all.

Your decision to go with Bush, while disappointing, is your decision. I just wish you could have based it on something more substantial.

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wonderwench

Al Gore recently gave a speech in which he compared Bush to Hitler - the same Al Gore who spoke at the Democratic Convention during which Kerry was inaugurated.

Moveon.org, which supports the Democrats, had an ad in which Bush was compared to Hitler featured on its site. For months after they said it had been removed, the ad continued to appear under a series of revised urls that were sent to anti-Bush people.

As for "W" Ketchup - there is a difference between saying "Yay my team!" vs. "Hatel the other guy!" Another instance in which a sense of humor is a good thing.

KMA-628

I am not saying it doesn't happen from both sides, but I would hardly equate "traitor" with "Hitler".

If you read my second-to-last paragraph--I said "both sides are guilty".

I didn't say anything about the Kerry campaing either, you added that on your own.

The Bush = Hitler comment was made here on TFP.

Both sides (not campaigns, the sides) need to back off the hate and demonizing and focus on why I or anyone should vote for them.

__________________
Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

KMA-628

First, I point the finger at people that espouse hate--it is never defendable.

Second, I criticize both sides on this issue.

"So what's the point" - The point is that I am really tired of it. It is such a waste of enerygy on anybody's part, regardless of the political persuasion.

If you want to convince me to vote against Bush, I need more than the hate-filled rhetroic. Not that it is the only thing being said out there, but it is the loudest.

/This is not incite a why I hate/love Bush thread. I don't want to turn this thread into a why we should convice me to vote for Kerry, it's not my point

It really bothered me that this company was getting the kind of flack they were getting. They didn't support only one side, they supported both. Why verbally attack an employee? What sane person sees this as reasonable?

__________________
Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

KMA-628

BTW - This is not a Right vs Left issue.

It comes across that way because of the examples I used (I used examples from my personal experience and those that came to my mind right away). I would like to see it stop on both sides.

Why isn't anyone in this thread condeming the practice in general rather than say, "Well your side does it too"?

Now that I think about it, I probably should've used examples from both sides, but I didn't. I tried to tie it together in the end by saying both sides are guilty.

__________________
Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

nanofever

Strawmen are bad. I can easily find people who vilify Kerry and Democrats just as much as the people you cited. Finding fringe elements and using those elements to paint an entire group is at best disengeneous and at worst first-degree sophism.


I have to agree with you on this point. I do wonder why you wasted 9/10 of your post on creating a gigantic, fully articulated strawman only to finish with a kernel of wisdom at the end. Why can't you just skip the strawman and start with the wisdom ?

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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

cthulu23

What Gore REALLY said in reference to Bush's opposition to humanitarian nation building was this:

Quote:

"The absence of enlightened nation-building after world war one led directly to the conditions which made Germany vulnerable to fascism and the rise of Adolf Hitler, and made all of Europe vulnerable to his evil designs," Gore argued.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...798435,00.html

This is very far from calling Bush "Hitler" or even accusing him of any fascist similarities at all.

Kerry disavowed the MoveOn Hitler ad (a submission from an unaffiliated artist into a contest) and MoveOn claimed that they removed it. You say they didn't, but I don't see any proof of that. Who knows.

By the way, W ketchup was produced so that conservatives don't have to buy something with Heinz on it...that seems a little out there to me.

Yes, all the vitriole is bad for the political environment. We really should stop pointing fingers at each other. However, I have to address what seems to be a common American conservative mantra, namely, that all of Bush's opponents are motivated by an illogical hate (as if there aren't plenty of perfectly sensible reasons to crticize Bush).

matteo101

To me invading countries with no "real" motives..only personal gains..sounds like Hitler to me.
Someone find something more hitler like then that that Kery has done.

cthulu23

Let's just drop this, please. This isn't helping our argument

Seaver

Oh no keep it up. It draws attention away from legitimate reasons to vote Democrat this election.

cthulu23

I'm trying to criticise my own side here....interest of fairness and all that. I have to wonder why some folks think that every anti-bush statement out there emanates directly from the DNC.

powerclown

How about this:
Both (Kerry & Edwards) both voted in favor of invading Iraq...

Zeld2.0

I don't know what is more disturbing - the fact the right usually claims it is 'war' against the left (no compromise) or the fact the country is more extreme to one side or another.

Ten years ago, if you came and listened to this, you would wonder if a civil war was about to erupt.

wonderwench

What Gore said:

"The administration works closely with a network of rapid-response digital Brown Shirts who work to pressure reporters and their editors for undermining support for our troops," Gore said. The term "Brown Shirts" refers to Nazi supporters in the 1930s and '40s.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/24/gore.bush/

Zeld2.0

Well that's a stretch - suddenly Bush is Hitler because of an analogy on technology and what it can do.

If I said "so-and-so was being a Brown Shirt to my group" or something like that, would they suddenly be Hitler? No, I'm saying they're using similar methods that indeed many many dictator groups have used (Gestapo, KGB, etc.) - only, one is more famous than the others.

wonderwench

No, it is not a stretch. Calling someone a brown-shirt is another term for being a Nazi.

Zeld2.0

It's still a stretch - he's calling the network they are working with brown-shirts, not the administration itself. What if he called them the Russia secret police (nkvd/kgb/whatever it became)? Different name, same meaning.

I'll file this under flame-bait.

matteo101

Who made them even have to vote by coming up with the idea?
They voted for the war because of the "reasons" George Bush, his Administration and his "inteligence" told him about why they wanted to. He didnt know how bad the inteligence is, and the real motives.

MSD

Not revised URL's, mirrors on unaffiliated sites. Just because something shows up on one site doesn't mean they're the ones who own and promote every copy of it.

Seaver

Those "reasons" and "inteligence" (two L's in intelligence btw) were the same intelligence that Bush, Kerry, and Edwards received. So if Kerry/Edwards are not expected to differenciate false/true intelligence why would you hold anyone else who had access to the same information more accountable?

cthulu23

There was plenty of intelligence out there that stated the opposite of what Bush believed...unfortunately, it wasn't paid attention to. The White House was so dissatisfied with CIA info that they ran their own intelligence apparatus. They may not have "lied" about the state of affairs, but they did carefully select the info that most closely followed their preconceived notions. This was the intelligence that they then used to justify the war.
How was the congress supposed to "differenciate" (no c, btw) between the good intelligence and the bad? They trusted the executive.

scout

There is absolutely no proof the Bush administration ran their own intelligence agency. If there is please post a viable news source or a link. Both Kerry and Edwards had security clearances{as do all Senators} to see all the intelligence gathered by the CIA, M6 etc. the exact same intelligence seen by the President. The 9/11 commision, which is bipartisan btw, cleared the Bush Administration of these charges. Mr. Clinton also received the same intelligence that Mr. Bush received and believed there was WMD's in Iraq at that time. Both Republicans and Democrats voted to get us into this war. Now the going is tough the Democrats want to stand back and point fingers.
If you want to argue that Mr. Bush is ultimately responsible because he's the Commander-in-Chief that's one thing, but at least stick to the facts. I will buy the argument Mr. Bush is ultimately responsible for the screwups of the FBI and CIA because he's the President

cthulu23

Scout,

Look into the Office of Special Plans....here are some sources:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...999737,00.html
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3660169/
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030512fa_fact
Does this mean that the Administration lied? No, but it does highlight how they helped to sculpt intellignce to suit their needs. I guess you could say that George Tenet died for their sins.

nanofever

Don't worry about Tenet. He will be resurrected like all great politicians in 1d4 adminstrations.

/One ticket please, aisle preferable.

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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

tecoyah

The sad reality is, Mr bush and his administration have created a deep distrust for themselves in a large population of Americans. The reasons are far too many, and extremely complex as they will differ with each individual, and the experience , information, and opinions they have. The "Hatred" that seems to be in place is mostly due to fear, as is most hatred in this world. Had there been a bit more open communication from this administration, and an attempt to at least "seem" honest, they may have been able to avoid the dissapointment so many feel.
I do not condone the senseless name calling, as it is childish and counterproductive. I do however understand the reasoning behind it. Never before in my life have I been afraid for my country, this may be due to my personal understanding of the so called facts, but that does not change the fear I feel.
The inability to understand the information provided by our intellegence agencies is unfortunate, and must be repaired, whether through new leadership, or a change in the command structure. Had this been the only, or indeed one of a few failings, I could understand and accept an apology from those who failed.
As this was one of a massive string of failures and fabrications (in my opinion), and nothing resembling an apology, let alone an acceptance of responsibility has been forthcoming, I am forced to take back the automatic respect I once gave to my commander in chief.
Hitler....No, absolutely not there should never be a comparison to such a person.
Still, I cannot imagine what this country, let alone the world will be like if this type of administration continues to be in power within the most powerful country in this world.

The United States was once respected and liked, by most of the world (relatively speaking). We are now the most Feared, and Hated . I have less pride in my country than I have ever had.....and this my barometer for change.
I want to be PROUD of my country again....not ashamed.

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pocon1

Thats really funny

Back to the original topic. This is not new. politicians have been attacking each other since the start of this country. Is it right? No. Is it acceptable? No. Will it continue? Of course. And other countries do it to us, and we do it to them. They call Bush the cowboy, and we call the French cheese-eating surrender monkeys. If you don't respond to it, learn to keep your cool, and don't support people who engage in this bullshit rhetoric, then maybe, little by little, our children won't have to call each assholes on the playground

Seaver

Yeah, too bad they dont realize it's not an insult to us. Stupid frogs.

pocon1

yeah, they should remember the only things that come from texas are steers and queers, and bush ain't got no horns.

Seaver

Carefule pocon, lots of us are from Texas and are very proud of it.

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pocon1

Then this is what is known as bull-baiting

tecoyah

Why do I even bother....................

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

pocon1

ooh, wait, tecoyah! I know the answer to this. Because you like to hear yourself talk? Seriously, you wrote out a well-thought and decisively argued piece. Seaver and I have gotten the same message across by using a demonstration piece. This way, people on different levels can see the same message.

tecoyah

Understood....It is obvious that the politics board has lost the apeal it once held for me. If indeed I so enjoyed "hearing myself talk" it is likely I would reply to far more insults , such as yours with the snide limitations you seem to portray. As I rarely do so....that is likely not the case.
It has become less than productive to post here, and so I will simply lurk and learn. Pity, since the last few weeks of watching showed some signs of improvement here.

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pocon1

ahh, all I had to say was shit anyways.

onetime2

This thread is yet another wonderful example of why I'm limiting my participation in the politics forum.

KMA brought up a real discussion topic which could have been talked about constructively. Instead it became the typical BS of Tilted Politics.

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SinisterMotives

Typical of political discussions everywhere, you mean. Some people simply cannot look at a topic generically, but insist rather on injecting their specific "us vs. them" ideological spin into everything. Simply put, in their minds an appeal to reason on all sides is automatically construed as a personal or partisan attack which they must defend themselves or their party against. And so the mud-flinging continues. I agree that it's sophomoric, irrational, and tiresome, and that's why there are certain people I studiously refrain from trying to engage in any kind of debate nowadays.

onetime2

I've been involved in a fair number of good discussions that focused on the points but, in general, you're right that the higher likelihood is that any political discussion will be dominated by partisan BS.

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