thebeat

Well it looks like the Phillippines are going to withdrawl their whopping 51 troops out of Iraq to save one of their own "Angelo dela Cruz " who has been held captive with his life threatened.

Im quite disappointed in this move, hell they only sent 51 troops, sure any help is appreicated but if their willing to move out over person whats the point of coming at all?

KMA-628

The interesting thing will be to see if the hostage is let go.

If he isn't, the Phillippines will look pretty stupid on this move.

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bermuDa

he was already released from what I heard on the radio. I guess the withdrawl of a mere ~50 troops is worth the life of their comrade... but rewarding terrorist tactics is not going to help the situation one bit.

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thebeat

It was the Pakistani who was released...

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Kadath

I agree bermuda, but the problem is, not rewarding the tactics doesn't help either. They will just keep grabbing people.

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cosmoknight

Those troops were scheduled to leave in August anyway but I agree its moronic to think it you can bargain with terrorists.

Stompy

They should say "Yes, we'll leave", then after the hostage is released say "Just kidding. We're staying." That'd make the terrorists look pretty stupid

How would the terrorists even know if they're really withdrawing troops?

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matthew330

i thought i was the only one thinking that stompy

Zeld2.0

The Phillipine soldiers (51 total so its really no big deal) were schedule to leave August 20 anyways...

Funny thing is, the terrorists might not even know that so the soldiers might even leave when they should

Would make the terrorists feel really stupid

highthief

I don't agree with negotiating with terrorists by and large, but yes, they were scheduled to leave August 20th I think. If they say they will leave 2 weeks early to save a life - I'm OK with that. It's not like they were changing policy on Iraq, merely slightly accelerating their schedule.

Don't forget, the Philipines has domestic terror issues, inclduing Islamic terror cells. They are pretty well educated on these issues.

Xepidemic

and who knows.. maybe the phillippines is just telling to terrorist that their soldiers are leaving and when the hostage is released. they will send the soldiers right back. i think its worth it. that man has eight children.

Dragonlich

I really don't care about this hostage (apart from the fact that he's a human too). What I care about more is that there are Dutch troops there. Now that they know that hostage takings do indeed work, what's to stop them from taking a Dutch guy hostage???

The same goes for all the other countries that have send troops there. When will their citizens be abducted and then slaughtered in the hope that they'll withdraw too?

*That* is why you don't give in to terrorists: they'll go on doing the things that work.

Zeld2.0

Yep I don't like dealing with terrorists because they aren't idiots - they know what works and what won't.

But on the other hand the Phillipine force of 50 people isn't exactly a big factor so them pulling out IMO isn't too big of a deal.

KMA-628

yes, but.....

This will be taken by the terrorist as a victory. A feeling that I really don't want them to have.

They will not see this as a numbers thing, it will only be seen as a victory for their side, regardless of how small.

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wilbjammin

This is a no-win situation. Seeing the captive's family on television with all 8 or so of his children brought a lot together for me. How many of you would be willing to let a man die and remove a large family's primary source of income to make a political point of strength?

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KMA-628

Very easy, I think of the consequences.

Giving in to terrorists' demands will only create a snowball effect that would have dire results.

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docbungle

Wrong.

People are being kidnapped and beheaded. Whether anyone cooperates with them or not, people will continue to be kidnapped and beheaded. That is what they do. If you don't give in to their demands, they will kill someone. If you do give in to their demands, they will kill someone.

Saving a life, when possible, should be a top priority. What they are asking for in return is nickel and dime stuff. Not worth a human life.

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KMA-628

I disagree.

If we give in to them, it will only get worse because they will know it works.

The reason they keep pulling these stunts right now is for the fear and intimidation factor--which is working, hence they continue.

They know that most countries won't negotiate with kidnappers/terrorists. They continue right now for the effect, which is the only result they can hope to get.

We give in and you will see these kinds of acts increase exponentially. Because then they would be getting what they want plus more.

Why do you think that practically every government in this world has a "no negotiating" rule regarding terrorists (regardless how small the act)? Is it because they don't care about their own people? No. The rule is in effect because it is common knowledge what would happen if anyone where to give in.

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wilbjammin

My point is that it is much harder to make decisions regarding someone's life once you see the consequences for the person and their family. I'm not talking about theory and the concept of scale... I'm talking about imagining yourself being the person in charge, and looking at a large family and telling them all that you're going to let their family member die because you think sending a message to the terrorists is more important than they are. From a utilitarian point of view it makes sense, but from a humane person-to-person standpoint it is much more rough. I'm not saying there's a right and wrong in this situation, but I am trying to point out that these decisions aren't easy and if you think that what should be done is an easy decision then you probably aren't really putting yourself in the shoes of the decision-maker fully.

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ARTelevision

The Phillipines has a major problem with their radical Muslim population and they have their hands full. I'd say this is real politics at work - they need to avoid civil conflict at this point. They are acting in their self-interest and in this instance - while regrettable - it was probably deemed necessary for them to take this action.

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KMA-628

By easy, I meant that one can make the decision without hemming and hawing about it. I never said that the "leader" should or should not feel bad. In a case like this, one should not let feelings come before duty. That is part of being a leader. In most cases, you have to know your decision before the decision needs to be made.

In this case, for me, it is easy. I do not have to think about the answer at all.

Yes, it is tough on the family. Hell, it's tough on everybody. You just have to pray that you will never have to deal with it.

But I can tell you, most assuredly. That if your were the president and my son was the hostage, I would support the no-negotiation stance 100%. Would it hurt? Yeah. Would I like it? No. Would I waver? Probably.

Why? Because I can look at the bigger picture.

The battle is pretty much lost when you show weakness in the eye of the enemy. i.e. "paper tiger"

Is anyone going to question the resolve of the Phillipino gov't after this?

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KMA-628

wilbjammin,

Taking a step back, I think we are on the same side of this but just looking at it from different angles.

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wilbjammin

Well, I'm just pointing out the humanity aspect of the issue. I think that the rhetoric that has been going on in this thread indicates the inherent abstraction of our perceptions of people.

Like I said before, I'm not going to say who's right or wrong about whether the leadership in the Philippines is correct in pulling its troops out a month early or not. Foreign policy is such a complicated issue that there is often no way to predict completely what the ramifications are of decisions in the immediate future, and in the long-run. In the end, from a realist point of view, all nations have to act in what they consider their self-interest to be.

In regards to this situation, I think there is a point that isn't being addressed very well. These terrorist-labelled kidnappings (I would say they are blackmail more than terrorism personally) are taking place outside of the home country of the people affected. Terrorism that takes place in a home country as opposed to elsewhere is going to be taken a lot more seriously because of the immediacy to the threat to the citizenry at large. I don't see an end in sight for these kidnappings and executions, and given the numbers of Filipinos in Iraq I don't think the scale of the decision is large enough to indicate much of anything. We will see, however, where this trend leads to in the coming months. This is a matter that I simply cannot make predictions on because of the lack of information I have about what the situation in Iraq really looks like.

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KMA-628

Can you imagine the can of whoopass that would've been opened had the Marine been killed. If that guy had been beheaded, the hostages would've been found with a quickness (and dead).

I know better. I like to live long.

I don't piss off:

1) Navy Seals
2) Rangers
3) Green Berets
4) Any Marine
5) The IRS

Air Force....well.....that is a different story.

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Dragonlich

wilbjammin, I'd say the kidnappings are used to blackmail governments, but the "public" beheadings are used to terrorize.

whocarz

What? Are you talking about the Lebanese-American Marine? What do you mean the hostages would have been found with a quickness and dead? I assume you mean hostage takers, right? Well, I doubt they'd be found so fast. What about all the other terrorists that do this? You think that if the Marines had such a swift way to find a group that they'd sit on their hands and let some poor bastard get his head cut off?

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docbungle

I agree with that, but I'm just saying that it doesn't change, regardless of what we do. I mean, even though we have a 'no bargaining with terrorists' policy, it doesn't stop them from doing it. They continue to be terrorists, whether we bargain with them or not. And it looks like they actually are willing to honor their "deals" by letting hostages go.

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Dragonlich

...until the next time, when you upset them again.

Y'see, basically, you're rewarding violent solutions to problems. In a world where we'd like to see debate and compromise, you'd be saying: if you don't like to compromise, threats and violence will get you what you want.

That's a dangerous development, and it has to be stopped. No matter how many people terrorists abduct and murder, they *cannot* be allowed to achieve anything beyond the act itself. Otherwise, you're inviting others to try the same tactics, and before you know it, you're on the slippery slope to total lawlessness.

In this instance, I would not be surprised if rebels in the Philippines will start abducting and beheading random people too...

KMA-628

whocarz,

Yep, that was a typo that screwed up my entire post.

What I meant about the Marines was:

There is a big difference between a Marine and a MOTIVATED Marine.

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JBX

What a bunch of invertebrates.

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MSD

It works. A hostage with a deadline for beheading consistently makes the news for days while dozens of civilians and military personnel killed in simultaneous bombings across the country stay on for, at most, 2 days of sporadic coverage.