John Kerry and John Edwards 2004 - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Superbelt · 07-08-2004, 10:39 AM

Zing!
Bush Waffles
Bush Flip Flops

# Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it.
# Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it.
# Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it.
# Bush is against nation building; then he's for it.
# Bush is against deficits; then he's for them.
# Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again.
# Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.
# Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution.
# Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't.
# Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits
# Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care.
# Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island.
# Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding.
# Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will
# Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have.
# Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote
# Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.
# Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

brianna · 07-08-2004, 11:07 AM

this whole "flip-flop" thing is such a stupid issue to bring up. do we really want a president who never changes his mind regardless of circumstances or evolution of thought? smart, open minded people change their mind all of the time, it's only idiots and religious fundamentalists who constantly resist changing their mind.

cosmoknight · 07-08-2004, 11:15 AM

I think the most telling argument against Edwards is his own state doesn't want him (but for some reason the majority of America does?). Can you say shades of Al Gore who could even carry his own state? I would be shocked if North Carolina sides with Kerry because of him naming Edwards. His biggest liability is in the south and his only two choices from there aren't well liked. Edwards or Graham who is seeing his support falter in Florida. He might as well picked Ted Kennedy.

Paq · 07-08-2004, 11:23 AM

See..
when bush changes his mind, it's actually leadership and taking in opposing viewpoints as a way of making the correct and best decision...

Or, he just says oops, i didn't do that, we'll never talk of it again. Or it's "Hi, i did some things in my youth that i dont want to discuss bc i don't want my daughters to get the wrong ideas"
Or, basically, this is the only past we've ever had and will ever have. The previous pasts we've had before do not exist anymore as this is the past we've always had. We have and will always be at war with eurasia.

When kerry does it, he's waffling...

I do get sick at the way politicians are expected to be 1 tracked, to never make mistakes, to never change their minds, etc. it's sickening.

Strom thurmond, for example. Dude was part of the dixie crats, once said that it would take the entire force of the american army to make a black man and a white man sit beside each other on the bus. He changed, and brought an entire constituency with him, but in the end, 1 man said the country would be better off if we voted thurmond as president and bammo, 50 yrs of change is thrown out the window and a man's political career is downed by 1 statement pandering to a crowd....

The only constant is change. There are times when you make a decision and you stick with it, not bc you believe you are right, but bc it is absolutely the right thing to do. It is right to push for equal treatment. It is not right to push for a war on a false premise.

cosmoknight · 07-08-2004, 11:47 AM

Kerry comes off bad because he changes is mind frequently and it looks like pandering. Case in point, Kerry is pro choice to make sure he passes the Democratic litmus test. Kerry then gets shit from the Catholic Church and is threatened with taking away his communion privileges isolating him from his Catholic voters. Kerry then declares he feels life begins at conception per the Catholic Church directives. Now he has an even bigger problem. Does he support abortion or not. I guess it depends on the stump speech and who is in the audience at the time. If he changed his mind great welcome to the fold but I bet his answer will need a lawyer to explain the wanderings and verb age of his answer. I'm sure it will cover every part of the compass and end up somewhere in the middle.

Superbelt · 07-08-2004, 12:22 PM

And I just showed how Bush changes his mind frequently and makes it look like pandering. And he's only been doing it 3 years. Kerry has been at it for decades. Which is plenty of time to truly change your views.

cthulu23 · 07-08-2004, 12:36 PM

I would hope that the dialogue in this fourm can rise beyond simple attacks originating from each candidate's campaign. If not, it's going to be a long wait for November.

Zeld2.0 · 07-08-2004, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthulu23
I would hope that the dialogue in this fourm can rise beyond simple attacks originating from each candidate's campaign. If not, it's going to be a long wait for November.

It's a good reason why I'm refraining from entering threads much lately.

mml · 07-08-2004, 01:39 PM

I don't buy into the idea that the requirements of the presidency have changed since 9/11. The president has always been Commander in Chief and has always needed to be capable of dealing with complex international issues.

Is Edwards the most prepared/experienced person for the job - no. Does he have the abilities and fortitude to handle the presidency - Kerry believes so, and we all get to evaluate him on this choice.

By the way, Edwards does have much more actual international, foreign policy and intelligence experience than President Bush did when he ran, so that arguement really does not hold up.

Superbelt · 07-08-2004, 03:41 PM

Ok, let's get off flip flops, which I brought up really just to show that you can look at any politician and see that there are many issues where they change positions on. That it is absolutely ludicrous for Bush supporters to point to these "flip flops" of Kerry when Bush has the same kind of record.
Back to the validity of Edwards campaign.

"John Edwards has served the same amount of time in the Senate as George W. Bush served as governor of Texas when he was elected president. The Texas legislature only meets every other year and the governorship of the Lone Star State has long been considered one of the weakest positions of its kind in America. Add to it that Edwards has sat on the intelligence committee through the days before and after September 11th. You could argue that Edwards has more experience in key areas than George W. Bush did when he ran in 2000."
That was said by former Republican congressman Joe Scarborough of all people.

Plus, I bet Edwards can identify and name the key nations around the world. And most of their leaders. That's something Bush couldn't do.

Sparhawk · 07-08-2004, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt

Ooh, so neophyte Bush can lock the door behind him? When did the regulations for president tighten?

9/11 changed nothing. That's a weird ass meme. We are under the same pressures and dangers as we have always been. If it's not the British hiring Hessian Mercenaries to bring us back in line it's Northern Aggression. If it's not Mexicans outnumbering our Texas outposts it's those uppity Canadians (seriously, they kicked our asses). Germany set plans to attack american soil, They couldn't follow up Pearl Harbor though. Neither did the countless scares we had with the Russians and all the Nukes we've had laying around. LAX attempt, WTC I, and OK City. Again, I say, nothing's changed. Only the tactics coming out of some of our leaders mouths intent to scare you. America has always been sitting on a powderkeg. As such our leader has a very important job, always has. A President's first job is always to be Commander in Chief. It's been that way for the past 250 years. A hierarchy is in place to advise a President in military matters.

Plus, the primary half of the Democrats ticket has several decades of foreign policy, defense and military experience.

BAM! Time to kick it up a notch! Great posts, Superbelt, they have been added to my talking points.

wonderwench · 07-08-2004, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeld2.0
I don't recall the criteria for President's changing

I suspect that for many Americans, ability to handle national security issues will be weighted much more heavily in this election due to the 9/11 attacks.

We'll see if I am correct in November.

Superbelt · 07-08-2004, 08:59 PM

I refer you, again wonderwench, to the post sparhawk quoted. (Thanks for the props S)

If national security issues become that much more important this cycle than they ever have been then you leaders have done a tremendous job of irrationally scaring you. And should be handed their hats for it.

roachboy · 07-09-2004, 07:54 AM

my thought on ticket---it is a shame to see such a centrist double bill, to my mind--i agree with what nader says about it--but i will vote kerry (unless it is obvious, somehow, that pennsylvania will not go in bush's direction).

07-08-2004, 11:23 AM	#44 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	See.. when bush changes his mind, it's actually leadership and taking in opposing viewpoints as a way of making the correct and best decision... Or, he just says oops, i didn't do that, we'll never talk of it again. Or it's "Hi, i did some things in my youth that i dont want to discuss bc i don't want my daughters to get the wrong ideas" Or, basically, this is the only past we've ever had and will ever have. The previous pasts we've had before do not exist anymore as this is the past we've always had. We have and will always be at war with eurasia. When kerry does it, he's waffling... I do get sick at the way politicians are expected to be 1 tracked, to never make mistakes, to never change their minds, etc. it's sickening. Strom thurmond, for example. Dude was part of the dixie crats, once said that it would take the entire force of the american army to make a black man and a white man sit beside each other on the bus. He changed, and brought an entire constituency with him, but in the end, 1 man said the country would be better off if we voted thurmond as president and bammo, 50 yrs of change is thrown out the window and a man's political career is downed by 1 statement pandering to a crowd.... The only constant is change. There are times when you make a decision and you stick with it, not bc you believe you are right, but bc it is absolutely the right thing to do. It is right to push for equal treatment. It is not right to push for a war on a false premise. __________________ Live. Chris

07-08-2004, 01:39 PM	#49 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	I don't buy into the idea that the requirements of the presidency have changed since 9/11. The president has always been Commander in Chief and has always needed to be capable of dealing with complex international issues. Is Edwards the most prepared/experienced person for the job - no. Does he have the abilities and fortitude to handle the presidency - Kerry believes so, and we all get to evaluate him on this choice. By the way, Edwards does have much more actual international, foreign policy and intelligence experience than President Bush did when he ran, so that arguement really does not hold up. __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

07-09-2004, 07:54 AM	#54 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	my thought on ticket---it is a shame to see such a centrist double bill, to my mind--i agree with what nader says about it--but i will vote kerry (unless it is obvious, somehow, that pennsylvania will not go in bush's direction). __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-08-2004, 10:39 AM	#41 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Zing! Bush Waffles Bush Flip Flops # Bush is against campaign finance reform; then he's for it. # Bush is against a Homeland Security Department; then he's for it. # Bush is against a 9/11 commission; then he's for it. # Bush is against an Iraq WMD investigation; then he's for it. # Bush is against nation building; then he's for it. # Bush is against deficits; then he's for them. # Bush is for free trade; then he's for tariffs on steel; then he's against them again. # Bush is against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli Palestinian conflict; then he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State. # Bush is for states right to decide on gay marriage, then he is for changing the constitution. # Bush first says he'll provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency), then he doesn't. # Bush first says that 'help is on the way' to the military ... then he cuts benefits # Bush-"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. Bush-"I don't know where he is. I have no idea and I really don't care. # Bush claims to be in favor of the environment and then secretly starts drilling on Padre Island. # Bush talks about helping education and increases mandates while cutting funding. # Bush first says the U.S. won't negotiate with North Korea. Now he will # Bush goes to Bob Jones University. Then say's he shouldn't have. # Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq. Later Bush announced he would not call for a vote # Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team. # Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the US. Bush after meeting with Pres. Fox, he's against it.

07-08-2004, 11:07 AM	#42 (permalink)
brianna Addict Location: nyc	this whole "flip-flop" thing is such a stupid issue to bring up. do we really want a president who never changes his mind regardless of circumstances or evolution of thought? smart, open minded people change their mind all of the time, it's only idiots and religious fundamentalists who constantly resist changing their mind.

07-08-2004, 11:15 AM	#43 (permalink)
cosmoknight Tilted	I think the most telling argument against Edwards is his own state doesn't want him (but for some reason the majority of America does?). Can you say shades of Al Gore who could even carry his own state? I would be shocked if North Carolina sides with Kerry because of him naming Edwards. His biggest liability is in the south and his only two choices from there aren't well liked. Edwards or Graham who is seeing his support falter in Florida. He might as well picked Ted Kennedy.

07-08-2004, 11:47 AM	#45 (permalink)
cosmoknight Tilted	Kerry comes off bad because he changes is mind frequently and it looks like pandering. Case in point, Kerry is pro choice to make sure he passes the Democratic litmus test. Kerry then gets shit from the Catholic Church and is threatened with taking away his communion privileges isolating him from his Catholic voters. Kerry then declares he feels life begins at conception per the Catholic Church directives. Now he has an even bigger problem. Does he support abortion or not. I guess it depends on the stump speech and who is in the audience at the time. If he changed his mind great welcome to the fold but I bet his answer will need a lawyer to explain the wanderings and verb age of his answer. I'm sure it will cover every part of the compass and end up somewhere in the middle.

07-08-2004, 12:22 PM	#46 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	And I just showed how Bush changes his mind frequently and makes it look like pandering. And he's only been doing it 3 years. Kerry has been at it for decades. Which is plenty of time to truly change your views.

07-08-2004, 12:36 PM	#47 (permalink)
cthulu23 Banned	I would hope that the dialogue in this fourm can rise beyond simple attacks originating from each candidate's campaign. If not, it's going to be a long wait for November.

07-08-2004, 03:41 PM	#50 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Ok, let's get off flip flops, which I brought up really just to show that you can look at any politician and see that there are many issues where they change positions on. That it is absolutely ludicrous for Bush supporters to point to these "flip flops" of Kerry when Bush has the same kind of record. Back to the validity of Edwards campaign. "John Edwards has served the same amount of time in the Senate as George W. Bush served as governor of Texas when he was elected president. The Texas legislature only meets every other year and the governorship of the Lone Star State has long been considered one of the weakest positions of its kind in America. Add to it that Edwards has sat on the intelligence committee through the days before and after September 11th. You could argue that Edwards has more experience in key areas than George W. Bush did when he ran in 2000." That was said by former Republican congressman Joe Scarborough of all people. Plus, I bet Edwards can identify and name the key nations around the world. And most of their leaders. That's something Bush couldn't do.

07-08-2004, 08:59 PM	#53 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	I refer you, again wonderwench, to the post sparhawk quoted. (Thanks for the props S) If national security issues become that much more important this cycle than they ever have been then you leaders have done a tremendous job of irrationally scaring you. And should be handed their hats for it.