hiredgun

Linkage: http://www.etaiwannews.com/World/200...1050630460.htm

Syria has asked the UN to approve a resolution banning all WMD's in the region. The US can either approve it and turn on its ally Israel, which possesses nuclear weapons (and Bush would be absolutely screwed in the next election), or use its veto and reveal its hypocrisy to the entire world. Interesting situation.

In any case, I doubt that this resolution, approved or not, will shift the balance of power in the Middle East. Israel is already in open violation of several UN resolutions regarding territory and Geneva conventions regarding the handling of non-combatants in its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. These violations, punishable by war when other countries perpetrate them, have gone unnoticed for years, and it is likely that this new resolution would be just as ineffective.

hiredgun

You're right, there are a lot of countries violating international protocol (which is why this recent war is so puzzling... but i'm getting off-topic.)

Reading through my original post, it does seem one-sided. The reason I highlight Israel specifically right now is because of the difficult political situation that this resolution puts the US in. Sorry if my other post seemed a little skewed =/.

Lebell

Until Israel feels secure, it will NEVER happen.

Review your history. The Arabs have launched pre-emptive attacks at least three times I can think of, with the stated purpose of 'driving the Jews into the sea'.

For the Arabs it's about getting land back, especially Jerusalem (one of a dozen or so Arab 'holy cities').

For the Israelis, it's about survival and obtaining their ONE holy city, Jerusalem.

While I've been disappointed regarding the Israelis' unwillingness to so some flexability in order to obtain peace, ultimately I side with them.

BTW, Jordan was originally set aside for the Palestinians, but they are the ghetto children of the Arabs; no one wants them. And I blame the Arab nations for using them as a pawn to get rid of Israel.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

Dragonlich

Syria calling for a WMD-free middle-east is just laughable. It's so obviously anti-Israel it's just funny.

Everyone knows Israel has WMDs, and Syria is using that to move the current debate away from Syria and *their* potential WMDs.

The Arabs would like Israel getting rid of it's nukes, thinking they could finally get rid of the "Zionist entity" with yet another war (the fourth so far). Nope, if there's one country in that area that should have WMDs, it's Israel, to protect them from these anti-Jewish neighbors.

HarmlessRabbit

I think Syria has shown a LOT of political savvy. They have managed to make the Bush administration go on the defensive. Rumsfeld really needs to be softened up. His comments threatening syria were out-of-line for the head of defense and should have been delivered by the secretary of state. If the USA doesn't intent to invade syria, the head of the dept. of defense should be talking about them. Powell should.

I've been impressed with Syria's ability to outmaneuver us on this. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. OF COURSE Israel isn't giving up their nukes, but by putting the issue on the table, Syria has put the USA and Israel in a defensive position in regards to weapons.

HunterDevourer

This could turn out quite interestingly! In either case, the ties between USA and Israel are too strong to sever. And I doubt the chances of an arab force to drive out the state of Israel. However, Israel has not done itself any favours by its tactics and methods. I doubt this attempt by Syria will do anything to help the region...

__________________
Viva La Muerte

Mad_Gecko

Yeah, I saw the Syrian Ambassador on the BBC the other night and he was positively gloating to the cameras. Although it begs the ? how they gonna prove they haven't got WMD? IMHO UN inspectors couldn't find their own car keys.

__________________
[color=bright blue]W[/color]e Stick To Glass

"If three of us travel together, I shall find two teachers."
Confucious

crewsor

I seem to recall seeing something about Syria agreeing to turn over several wanted Iraqis which they had been denying were in Sryia. Seems they were lying. Imagine that. Also seems they may not be so confident in their maneuvering abilities. They are afraid and rightfully so. They support and harbor terrorists, and that makes them a legitimate target and they know it. They will change their policies or they will go the way of the Afghanistan and Iraqi govornments, and If you want my opinion it can't happen soon enough. Them calling for a WMD free middle east is almost as silly as libya heading the UN Human rights commission.

__________________
We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

MrSmashy

Because for all of the US rhetoric about WMD proliferation they have no problem with Israel possessing it, that's why. This should have been obvious in the post you are referring to.

hiredgun

That's easy, we'll just send over some inspectors. Then when they don't find anything, we'll claim that Syria is hiding the WMD's and that inspectors couldn't possibly find them, therefore we must go to war again in order to find the weapons I mean liberate the Syrian people.

*breathes*

HunterDevourer

Think Israel has broken a few standards in its time, I wouldn't really include it as a responsible country.

__________________
Viva La Muerte

hiredgun

We could argue for pages about why this country is responsible or that one isn't.... but that's not really the point.

How can the US claim to be the sole arbiter that decides which countries are allowed to have nukes or other WMDs, and which aren't? If anyone is responsible for that, it should be the UN.

a_divine_martyr

That makes me chuckle!

__________________
Censorship and thought control can only exist in secrecy and darkness...

Nad Adam

Please explain how there could be concern about France owning WMD when there's none about Israel?

__________________
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

Daval

I do not support Syria in any way. But, that said, they HAVE been very clever and this is a very cunning political manoever by them.

Dragonlich

I don't agree. If it were cunning, we wouldn't debate it; we'd all agree that Syria is a great country for saying this. Instead, we're discussing how this is designed to deflect attention...

james t kirk

Excellent post......

I am still waiting for the Americans to announce that they have "found" Saddam's cache of WMD.

As far as the Syrians go, their idea is simply brilliant. Fair is fair, if we make the middle east WMD free, then EVERYONE has to do it. Knowiing full well, the Isrealis will never go for it

Please explain to me why the Isrealis can't destroy their weapons of mass destruction. Every arab knows that if they ever did anything the Americans would be in there quicker than you can say Jack Robinson.

Syria is exposing the hypocrisy of the entire US / Israel behind the scenes stand.

As far as who should have nukes, who you feel secure about having nukes, etc......

Why doesn't every country in the world agree to destroy their nukes????? A world wide ban on WMD, including biological weapons with the penalty for violation being quick death for the leader of any country violating the resolution.

I can think of only one country that would refuse to hop on that bandwagon.

Dragonlich

From the use of those quotation marks, I take it you already know the cache will be fake and planted by the US? Or do you mean you doubt they'll "find" them in the end?

Every Arab knows they tried to attack Israel three times already, and the US did not go in to help them. They also know that if the US were to try, the Arabs would stop the oil supply; they think that's still enough of a threath to stop the US. The Arabs, Syria included, should just accept Israel, instead of always blaming them and the rest of the world for all their problems.

Perhaps because not all world leaders are as naive as you. If the US, UK, France, Israel, Russia, and some others were to scrap their WMDs, do you honestly belief that a moron like that North-Korean leader would also scrap his nukes? Do you think Osama Bin Laden would stop the hunt for WMDs? Do you think every lame third world dictator would get rid of his weapons?

Nope... if the Americans were to scrap their WMDs, they'd send out an invitation to the rest of the world to come in and kill each and every last one of them. The guys with the WMDs will gain the upper hand, and they'd be evil enough to use them. You could kiss your arse goodbye if that ever happened.

james t kirk

Dragon, you are decidedly pro-Isreal in all your posting. Are you jewish by any chance?

I couldn't give a rat's ass if the arabs and jews go on killing each other for the next 2000 years because that is all either of them seem to want to do.

They can both go fuck themselves.

Dragonlich

Heh, yes, I'm Jewish. That has an influence on my judgment, but it's not that big an influence. My brother (obviously also Jewish) is pretty anti-Israeli, and there are plenty of Jews out there that don't like the current Israeli government or it's actions.

I try to take a more open-minded approach, looking at both sides of the equation. I see that both sides do bad things, but think the Palestinians are the main culprits. Even then, the Palestinians are simply tools in the hands of Arab governments in the area.

And no, *the* Arabs and Jews don't want to kill each other, it's the extremists that want to do it. There just happen to be more Arab (Muslim) extremists because of the dictatorships there, and the accompanying anti-Israeli propaganda. For example, Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is a bestseller in Egypt, and the fake "Elders of Zion" book is generally believed to be true in the region. I have yet to see the Israelis distributing such filth about Arabs.

Mad_Gecko

Bit late, but yeah Hired Gun made me giggle. (Which is rare in this thread)

We seem to be getting on a Jew vs. Arab thread here (partly my fault). I would like to go back to some of the other concerns questions raised.

As a non US citizen and therefore not exposed to the same type of propaganda as the general populace of the US. I would like to know who handed the Sherriff's badge to Bush?

Agree that the U.N isn't doing a very good job in some areas but at least its a mediocre job by a conglomerate of international powers with no action taken unless ratified by a majority vote (Smacks of Democracy). The stance that the US and UK (Main protaganists) are taking seems to be more of an ogliarchy or more strongly a hegemony led by the US.

__________________
[color=bright blue]W[/color]e Stick To Glass

"If three of us travel together, I shall find two teachers."
Confucious

boatguy234

00

crewsor

Easy, That would be the suicidal, homicidal, maniacs who took out the world trade towers and three thousand some innocents along with them. Should it take more for a country to say enough is enough and decide to put an end to terrorism. I know you think the answer is not war in the mid-east and US is entirely to blame because of its poor foreign policy, but I think what Bush is doing is not only appropriate but the best solution to a problem that was not going to go away with dialogue and happy thoughts.

hiredgun

Do you really think this endless march to war will end terrorism? Don't you think the people who are losing mothers, wives, sisters, brothers, fathers, and children in this war are going to swear revenge? And don't you think that when their religious and political leaders point their fingers at the US, that some of these people will go on to carry out more terrorism against the United States?

How many lives does it take to learn that you can't end terror with more terror?

crewsor

Hiredgun...
What I really think is, the more terrorists we hunt down and kill the better. The more governments who support and harbor terrorism that are toppled, the better. Lots of people are so sure that what US is doing is not the answer. The problem is they don't have a better solution. You may not be able to end terror with terror but you can end it by killing terrorists.

Macheath

The real kicker is that this resolution will merely be reaffirming a pre-existing resolution from 1991 (Resolution 687 - sound familiar?).

Vetoing this thing will make the US look REALLY bad; Britain won't like it either.

JoeReckless

Sounds like Syria was taking notes when Saddam played games with the rest of the world.

Mad_Gecko

crewsor
Well, no not quite. US is definately not entirely to blame, we English aren't too squeaky clean (Seem to remember King Blair flying all across the world to promote "The War On Terror"). I just regard a more sensible and more united (with a few more countries behind us) approach to the problem. I realise there were quite a few who supported the US and UK, but I discount anyone who recieved "financial aid" as totally reliable (Turkey was fairly wishy-washy).
Instead of going into every country and running the risk of creating Martyr's for others to latch onto and presenting a negative image to the rest of the world. How about trying a more savvy approach (If Syria can come out with it's little gem) I am sure some of the slickest spinners in the US and UK could really start turning world opinion Before going into another country.

I wholeheartedly agree with your other point about hunting them down and killing the terrorists, but couldn't you do it with Special Forces? I thought I read that the CIA are now allowed to authorise Assasination again? A nice quiet "Disappearance" to Osama and the rest would be clean and particulaly quiet. Or even better a "snatch" and a quick show trial, find him guilty and shoot 'em.

__________________
[color=bright blue]W[/color]e Stick To Glass

"If three of us travel together, I shall find two teachers."
Confucious

crumbbum

See, Syria was not only harboring Iraqi leaders who fled, but also collaborated in taking and hiding Iraqi WMD before the war started... this is why the US is pissed, and with good reason. There is reason to suspect they may have been talking with France on this as well, at least according to Debkafile(www.debka.com). This UN resolution is a joke, like was said above, Israel is not giving it's nukes to terrorists, they are it's insurance policy against ANOTHER arab attempt to push the jews into the sea, whereas the arab countries develop WMD for attacking with, primarily to attack Israel. For example, Egypt has the second largest military in the region.... does Egypt have any real enemies? Who would attack them? And so forth. Syria also harbors and supports Hezbollah, which is responsible for the death of a bunker full of US marines, as well as many Israelis. If there is a way to clean up Syria's act, it is a step towards peace in the region.

Dragonlich

Heh, that's funny... that's exactly what Israel is doing with those Hamas guys, and everyone is angry about that.

hiredgun

Source, please. I don't believe that there was really any evidence to support this.

As for the rest, I don't know of any country that has sold nukes to terrorists, do you? In any case, if the US is going to go around enforcing an anti-WMD doctrine, then it damn well better be fair about it. You can't disarm one side of a conflict and leave the other side armed to the teeth.

Nad Adam

No matter what side you are on you must agree that this is a brilliant move by Syria.

__________________
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

crumbbum

WMD in Israel's hands or in Syria, Iraq, Iran, or Egypt's hands is a very different equation. Israel has nukes as a deterrent. They would never use them unless the country risked being destroyed (and if the arabs won a war against them, there would be a massacre of innocents... see the palestinians dancing in the reservists entrails in Ramallah. Also, in past wars, the Arabs have tortured and killed anyone who surrenders. Dead israeli soldiers were found with ears cut off, or their genitals cut off and put in their mouths). Not nice people. Egypt said last year that if other arab countries would give them 100 billion dollars they'd attack israel again. Syria has been provoking Israel through Hizbollah for years. And Iran is building nuclear reactors. They said awhile ago that even if Israel were to hit back, that since Iran is a bigger country they could destroy israel anyway. That is probably just talk, but it illustrates the reality of the region; Israel is defending itself, while all the other countries want to destroy it. Israel doesn't have nukes for the sake of attacking, they are for defense. The arab dictators who have WMD in the region (like Saddam did) are nuts and loose cannons. Strong weapons strengthen countries... who do we want to be stronger? Dictators and nutcases, or a democracy (that's 20% arab btw) that is the only country in the whole middle east that has a real economy, is a democracy, and protects the holy sites of all religions, has a free press, etc. It's stupid to support the arabs over Israel.

Mad_Gecko

Yeah thats 'cause everyone knows about it

Operative word being Quiet.

crumbum
"Only country with a real economy" (apologies for the paraphrasing)? Hmmm... I think quite a few of those other countries have thriving economies, some of the most popular diving schools in the med are in Egypt. Dubai has the only seven star hotel in the world. Oil has driven the United Arab Emirates to be one of the richest nations.

__________________
[color=bright blue]W[/color]e Stick To Glass

"If three of us travel together, I shall find two teachers."
Confucious

Dragonlich

Actually, he's quite right. A lot of oil-exporting countries there have no real economy *besides that oil*. They usually import modern equipment, and rarely build anything themselves. Doing this ensures that when the oil runs out, they'll take a nose-dive into oblivion. (Note: Iraq seems to be an exception thanks to Saddam's insistence on developing his own weapons...)

You can compare the situation to Spain in it's golden age - tons of gold were taken from South-America, and overnight Spain became unimaginably wealthy. They imported everything their neighbors could come up with (also loads of clocks, them being the computer of the day). They didn't develop their own industry, and even went so far as to dismiss foreign inventions and knowledge - it was from protestant countries after all, and thus heretical and evil. When the gold ran out, their economy went downhill because the rest of the world had moved on while they remained static.