meepa

I was talking to a friend about turning the voting age down to 16 years old instead of 18. Not that I was necessarily advocating it, but just for the sake of discussion I was trying to make a case.

The biggest reason that I figured lowering the age to 16 would be even considered a good idea would be to try and instill a stronger sense of voting responsibility while kids are still young. Most public schools usually have a US government class which is supposed to give a sense of civic duty, but I don't think it ever did much of anything except give kids a general idea of what each branch of the gov't did. By the time highschoolers turn 18, they are already overwhelmed by cynicism, apathy, and ignorance about their country's politics. Stack that on top of everything else a normal 18-year-old worries about, and taking the time to find some church of firestation just to vote doesn't sound appealing.

So what we were discussing is that if the voting age was 16, schools could hypothetically have way more specified (mandatory) classes about voting responsibility. Hopefully they would teach looking at issues and not party lines, being able to sift through political lip-service and propaganda, and avoiding peer pressure to vote a certain way either from their friends or their family. Along with this, the schools could also become official voting locations, and so on election day they could have a system to allow students that wanted to vote (obviously not forcing them to) to do so on campus where it was easy, convenient, and encouraged. The basic idea is to teach young people how to vote responsibly and get them in the habit of voting while they're still young and hope that that attitude carries over for when they leave for college/work/whatever.

The biggest problem with this, of course, is asking whether or not 16/17 year olds, even if they do take classes to be educated on the subject, are mature enough to vote intelligently. Most kids that age are more concerned with who they have a crush on, their chemistry homework, sports practice, and friends than about who their mayor is. Also, young people are one of the easiest groups to succumb to peer pressure and political spin. A big fear would be that their parents would put a lot of pressure for them to vote the same way they do. You can imagine all the ways a 16 year old can be easily swayed to think one way or another when they haven't developed their anti-bullshit skills fully yet. There are numerous other problems too, like on voting day, many students might not care about the process despite the education they receive, so they just vote for "whoever" or vote for obscure candidates just because they can. At any rate, there are lots of problems one can easily point out.

But one way to counter these arguments is that even though some 16/17 year-olds may not be mature enough to vote responsibly... There is probably a vast majority of eligible voters in the country that are already legally voting like idiots (such as only voting on party lines, falling for cheap propaganda tricks by either party, voting without understanding what the issues are, etc). So is it worth introducing the potential for a bunch of garbage votes in exchange for the potential to instill a habit of voting in young people? If it was easy and encouraged for students to vote at 16, that means they would have 2-3 very accessible voting terms to get into the voting process while in high school. Even if the plan only worked for 1/3 or 1/2 of the students, at least that is that many more voters who are going off to work/college after high school that are at least slightly more educated and enthusiastic about voting.

Anyway, I apologize this wasn't written as eloquently as it could have been. I just thought it was an interesting topic and I invite any other opinions for/against this for the sake of conversation. I think it is more interesting than

Poster 1: BUSH SUCKS!
Poster 2: SHUT UP HIPPY!
Poster 3: $*&#!!!
Poster 4: #*&@!!!
ad infinitum

Slavakion

I think that as long as schools have more classes to educate students about how to vote, and how to respond to issues, it's an ok idea.

bonbonbox

IMHO legal age for everything including driving should be raised to 21.

Bill O'Rights

Me too. But then again I'm staring the age of 42 down the throat. So, it doesnt affect me.

Seriously though, I've got no real problem with 18 being the age of majority. Voting at 16...no way. Nuh-uh. Ain't gonna buy into it. 18's as low as I can go with the vote.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

phukraut

21 for driving? so there go the summer jobs for teens delivering pizzas..

as for voting age, i'm all for bringing the age down. my only real concern was that the voter turnout of that age category would be so low that it would be effectively pointless to sample it. but if voting booths are set up on or near campus like you suggest, that may just turn things around.

in my highschool we had some classes about the political parties (in canada) and how their policies may affect our lives, but it was all quite theoretical---partially because we weren't in the job market really to have the experience to know the pains of income tax, etc, and largely because we had to wait years before we could have our say.

give kids a chance; they may surprise us.

pan6467

I do think a vast majority of 16/17 year olds would vote for whom their peers teel them to. I don't think many follow politics enough to vote for whom is best. I'm not knocking the kids I just remember what my teen years were like and even though there were a few of us that were political 90% were more interested in having fun.

I think it also throws them into a certain responsibility they may not be ready for.

I agree with BonBon and feel 21 should be the age for everything(including military service), except perhaps driving but even that should be 18, unless the kid has a job.

I truly feel you need a year of work and responsibility under your belt before you can make wordly decisions.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Kadath

By this rationale, none of America should be allowed to vote. The vast majority of Americans vote like their told, and 90% are disinterested in politics.

I don't think we should lower the voting age -- at least not until we can get more than 60% of current voters to turn out.

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pan6467

I disagree I feel there are a lot more involved with politics than most think. If 90% didn't care Rush and radio talk show hosts would be dying for audiences. But all the books, tv shows, radio, etc show that people are interested.

Problem is how many are dienfranchised thinking their vote doesn't matter.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

meepa

The whole idea is to get more voter turnout by hooking them while they're young... But like others have mentioned, that might bring on more problems than it's worth.

pig

On the whole, I'd say that I don't think that the age should be lowered, mostly because I think that kids should be out (at least quite possibly) from their parents' house before they start to vote. There's something critical about having to budget (a little) and make a few decisions on your own that really affect your life, in my opinion.

However, the first thing I thought of : can you imagine the advertising that would occur in / around schools? Kids forced to be in a small, concentrated place for 8 hours a day? I'd bet campaigners would make drug dealers look like novices going after kids.

I think it's an interesting idea, but I don't think I'd want to subject my kids to it. Let 'em be kids for a while - they've got the rest of their lives to pull their hair out.

ps. I disagree on the 21 thing...I'm more of a make everything 18.

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wnker85

I dont think it should be lowered at all. I'm 18 and really into the goverment and politics, and i didn't vote in my schoolboard election because i was not informed well enough on those who were running and there were some realy important issues that are coming up.

Also, at my school there are those who are blindly biased, like mentioned above. The last thing we need is carson daly as prez.

analog

Not to threadjack, but I don't understand the reasons behind thinking that driving age or voting age should be raised to 21...

The driving age thing alone would cripple large portions of the economy, first of all, not to mention that you gave no argument to support your assertion. I don't even know why the hell you think this could possibly be a good idea. I can only assume you have a blind, baseless distrust in the judgment of anyone under 21. It just makes no sense.

BigGov

21 for driving age is rediculous. It is reasonable for a 16 year old to learn to drive, and I've known many 16 year olds that are better drivers than 40 year olds.

Back on topic:

The problem is not in the voting, it's in the candidates. I despise Kerry, I despise Bush. Who am I going to vote for? Whoever I despise the lease? That's not very appealing.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Bill O'Rights

Michael Badnarik? Just a thought.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Kadath

You make a good point, but Rush and other radio talk show hosts don't discuss politics; they spin out partisan rancor. How many Americans can name the Speaker of the House without looking it up? Or explain the process behind the obscenity fines increases becoming law? Now how many can parrot the latest negative story on the President or Kerry? And I am by no means putting all or even more than half of the blame on conservative news sources. Look at the latest furor over the prisoner abuse thing. The AIM news thing that pops had a story linked as "Rumsfeld OK'd Use of Dogs: White House Disavows Memo." Then the title is "Bush Claimed Right to Waive Torture Laws," so I read the article, and it's kind of an exaggeration. I blame the media, and ARTelevision by his admitted association with it.

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The_wall

Heh if this happend Ralph Nader would have gotten a lot more votes last election, not that I think thats a bad thing =)

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bonbonbox

in response to Analog:

First of all my intention is not to argue, I stated an opinion. I admit I erred not giving reasons for the opinion but to assume that I have a blind, baseless distrust in the judgement of anyone under 21 I feel shows a lack of imagination and creativity. What's good for the economy is not always good for the people. An example would be the lack of public transportation and the completed goal of the oil, tire, auto, and insurance industries to force on us a dangerous and expensive means of getting about. Check the insurance rates on kids and then go figure why they are so high. Could it possibly be that they are, as proven by accident reports, the most likely to have accidents due to thier imaturity? No that couldn't possibly be it. Mayhaps the insurance industry just has a blind, baseless distrust in the judgment of anyone under 25.
My view is kids should be kids and focus on thier education, enjoying the joys of youth (not frying up burgers and delivering pizzas), and certainly not cluttering thier youthful minds with the crap that they will get far too much of as adults. Can't we let kids be kids? Is our country in such bad shape that they have to vote and be part of the work force? I realize though that I make no sense. Good day.

BigGov

That's probably who I will vote for if I have the absolute desire to vote. But it's disappointing to know the guy you're voting for will not win.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Bill O'Rights

If enough people vote for him...well, at the very least, it sends a message. Sooner or later, you will see a Libertarian President.

What I see, though, is a lot of hoopla over Nader. So what? The man is not a real threat to either party. The Libertarians, on the other hand...are. That, I believe, is why there is so little press on the Libertarian candidate, and so much on Nader. Refocus the attention to where it can do the least harm.
/rant

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

choskins

I think 18 is fine for voting, etc., as it is the age of majority for most of the US. However, and I don't mean to threadjack, the drinking age should be lowered to 18 as well. Voting, enlisting, but not drinking?

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- Sigmund Freud

BigGov

True, true. Well, except for the part about seeing a Libertarian president. I doubt it'll happen in either of our lifetimes

The party doesn't have much chance when a majority of the public doesn't even know the party exists, let alone it's stance on issues.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

kutulu

People over 70 cause just as many, if not more accidents than teenagers. They just cause them in different ways. Insurance rates are not nearly as high for senior citizens than they are for 16 yr old kids.

It would be nice if everyone could just focus on having fun and school when they are young but be realistic. Kids start becoming parents at 16, their families can't always afford the clothing or college, they want things for themselves, and they get kicked out of the house. Making the driving age would cripple them and be very bad for them.

When you are 18 you are legally responsible for yourself, there's no being tried as a minor anymore. Not being able to vote (even if its a bad vote) would be a huge smack in the face.

BigGov

A large majority of accidents in high school kids come from people who just can't drive. Some people can go swerve in and out of traffic at 100 mph with no problems, and are willing to take the consequences that result. Surprisingly, very few crash and die. Hell, very few crash period. Some people just ignore all other traffic, or just can't drive and get into accidents left and right. Some minor which they don't even report, and some major ones.

Maturity has nothing to do with anyone's ability to drive a car. Driving is a skill, some are good, some are experts, and some just suck.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

G5_Todd

amen

analog

Well, if it weren't for the fact you remain calling all those under 21, "kids" further into your post, I might have a passing consideration of your respect or trust for them. As it stands, I still don't think you hold them in very high regard.

Quote:

Check the insurance rates on kids and then go figure why they are so high. Could it possibly be that they are, as proven by accident reports, the most likely to have accidents due to thier imaturity? No that couldn't possibly be it. Mayhaps the insurance industry just has a blind, baseless distrust in the judgment of anyone under 25.

Your argumentatively useless sarcasm aside, you could consider two things:

1. Not every town in the country can afford to have or can rely on mass transit. I live in Orlando, Fl. This is a decent-sized city, but WAY too spread out for any kind of mass transit to really work.

2. Driving proficiency IS what it is. You can either immediately be great at it forever, or you never get it. I drive a lot. I get cut off more by these stupid fucking OLD PEOPLE, and the late-30, early-40-something crowd, than the "kids" of which you so positively speak. They don't give a shit about the other people on the road. They don't have respect for others or the privelege of driving and just point their car in whatever direction suits them. "Kids" care about their cars, and they're usually a hell of a lot more attentive because they don't have this laid-back, "i'm better than everyone else" vibe rippling out of them.

Quote:

My view is kids should be kids and focus on thier education, enjoying the joys of youth (not frying up burgers and delivering pizzas), and certainly not cluttering thier youthful minds with the crap that they will get far too much of as adults. Can't we let kids be kids? Is our country in such bad shape that they have to vote and be part of the work force? I realize though that I make no sense. Good day.

Well, in all honesty and without sarcasm (although i know you were being sarcastic), I can say i'm glad you realize that. You're on the right path.

You're still calling everyone under 21 "kids", and you have a blatant disrespect and distrust which oozes from your words. I'm 23, by the way, so this is not a personal thing. This is a, "stop being so damned closed-minded, open your eyes, and maybe you'll see something wonderful for once in your life" thing.

-analog.

dy156

When I was in High school, I wrote a guest editorial for the newspaper about how I thought 16 year olds ought to be able to vote and the arguments for it. I still think they should be able to, but I don't think they should be encouraged to do so. Hell, make it like a driving hardship allowing 15 year olds to drive. Let them take the same citizenship test given to immigrants trying to become citizens, and if they pass, let them vote. That way, those that have expressed a desire and gone to some effort can exercise their franchise, but you won't see some HS teacher giving extra credit in school for those that vote, which would lead to lots of ignorant voters.

wonderwench

Considering how the Left has largely taken over the educational system, allowing high schoolers to vote is a horrible idea. Living in Oakland CA, I see what has happened to public education up close and personal. The politicization is incredibly inappropriate. It is no wonder that Oakland students do so poorly academically when so much of the classroom time is spent on ideology instead of education.

Personally, I'd rather see only people who care enough to inform themselves about the issues and candidates vote.

bodymassage3

You might as well raise the legal age of being able to get a job to 21, because in a sense this is what changing the driving age to 21 would result in.

It would be AWESOME if we (our country - Hell, EVERY country) had it this way. Unfortunately, getting money for school lately is few-and-far-between, and the flipping of burgers and delivery of pizzas is what gets us said education and fun things.

As for moving the voting age to 16...its a pretty good idea in itself, but there's so many other negative things that would go along with it -

*Teachers would attempt to put out their politics in the classroom. The ones that already do it now, would do it more. This is not really a huge deal in classes relating to government and politics, but it would undoubtedly promote political "persuasion" in the maths/arts/sciences, etc. Personally, I don't think that should happen in public schools.

*The aforementioned advertising, and lots of it! I just don't think that public schools, where you are forced to be in the same area for 6+ hours, are the right setting for this.

*When you set a reasonable level for politics and political discussion, you will have people trying to "speak to" the crowds before they get to this age/grade level. Example: We change the voting age to 16 - then everyone is trying to persuade the 13 year olds to join their side!

Its a good idea, in theory. There are probably a few more problems someone could list. I think the above problems could be worked around, but only to a point could you "fix" them without completely destroying Constitional rights.

Like someone already said, there are young people that are very much into politics, and then there are those who could care less. Likewise with the older crowds.

Ace_O_Spades

In Alberta, you can get your driving permit at 14...

One of my close friends got his permit at 14 and he is probably one of the best drivers I know... Although he DID just get hit by an old person who ran a light... irony? yes... very much so

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Feh.