Karby

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5233810/

i didn't start this thread to ask about about the 9/11 commission, or their report, or Bush's response to it, nor am i trying to have a bonfire with people holding picket signs reading 'down with war,' or bush is the devil or whatever. all i'm saying is that for me personally, i'm finding it increasingly difficult to credit the current administration with anything more than half-truths.
*sigh*

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~my karma ran over my dogma.~

filtherton

So you're going commie, right? Why else would you even imply criticism of the president during a period of post major combat operations?

Fuck. Rummy got caught in a lie on t.v.. The transcript and the video are readily available online.

Of course they lied. How many different justifications did they have? How many have turned out to be plausible and consistent?

WMDs? Still looking.

Liberating the oppressed? Whoops, don't mind those incriminating pictures, that's just what the "spread of democracy" looks like.

Imminent threat? "Well, we never actually said anything about an imminent threat." *wink* *wink*.

Link to 9/11? Heh, yeah, so the american public is a little gullible.

djtestudo

Intellegence? Everyone agreed he had them.

So I guess a couple hundred Iraqi criminals "oppressed" by a couple hundred shit-for-brains soldiers is a lot worse then millions dying at the whim of Hussain?

I guess haveing the capability to produce chemical and biological weapons and having active ties supporting terrorist groups doesn't constitute an "imminent threat" anymore, huh?

Yes, SOME of us are...

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"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

seretogis

Saddam Hussein would have to personally detonate a nuclear weapon in downtown New York for some people here to be convinced that he was an imminent threat. We, lowly citizens, will never know the whole story and are simply pulling each others hair regarding the tiny pieces of information that are deemed unimportant enough for us to be told.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

cthulu23

Donald Rumsfeld practically shat himself on Face the Nation while trying to deny that anyone in the administration ever referred to Iraq as an "immeditate threat." Obviously, the White House has backed away from the idea of Iraq as an immediate danger, so why is it still repeated? I also strongly suspect that If the US had any secret intelligence that confirmed their justifications for war, we'd have heard of it long ago.

Pacifier

everyone? So USA and UK is everyone?
The rest of the coalition belived becasue they were paid enough.

and intellegence ... presenting a 10 year old document as a "proof"?


that was not was filtherton menat (I guess)
Rumsfeld saif that noone in the administration used the words "imminent threat", which is a lie.
Rumsfeld himself used this phrase...

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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

theusername

The thing is everyone, including France,, Russia, Germany, did agree that Saddam had them. Russia's intelligence told us Saddam was planning to attack the US, which could remain to be true. (The articles currently plastered on CNN.)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ror/index.html

The fact is these countries simply didnt want to be bothered because they had economic interests in Saddam and thats the absolute only reason they didnt help us.

I will not, and will never say Bush or the administration "lied." 1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving. This administration honestly felt Iraq was a threat to our National Security and they acted. I'm not saying it was right or wrong but I still respect the fact that this administration is willing to defend it's people.

Our planning of the Iraqi war sucked, we should have had a much better post-war plan and obviously the prison situation was deeply regrettable and completely disgusted me. Other than that, the world is a safer place without Saddam Hussein at the helm and lets just hope democracy springs up in Iraq,regardless of your opinion of the war please support the efforts currently being made to give Iraqis sovereignity, I dont see how anyone can be against that.

Just my opinion on the issue.

P.S. I dont feel any 1 man can represent an entire country. I would support the deposing of any dictator in favor of turning the country into a democracy.

Zeld2.0

I think there are those who would agree that the first line is true even in this country.

Hwed

Why are people falling hook line and sinker for the media spin that our war on Iraq was because of 9/11? We went into Iraq to prevent the next terrorist strike, folks. Saddam had the will, the means, and the intention of attacking us on our own soil, as well as persuing WMDs.

If Bush hadn't gone into Iraq, I guarantee that the Democrats would be screaming just as loudly at him for inaction. Lose-lose. I'm just glad he's an outsider and does the *gasp* right thing instead of falling into Washington Politics as usual.

roachboy

the problem is that the rest of the planet agreed that the un inspections regime had worked by the time bushwar began--that is why the "coalition" is the farce that it is and has been---it is not because of economic interests---despite the constant refrain to this end circulating around the rightwing media---the second thing is that obviously the americans had to present hussein as a present danger to them and the link to al qeada was crucial in this---otherwise bush would have found himself without any reason to go around the un at any particular time----the only problem was that their arguments to this end were false and unconvincing then, and are only more obviously false now. the americans did not go into iraq because of "terrorism" in any direct way---read the project for a new american century website, think about the crap concerning the first gulf war and how the reaganiste cowboys felt hamstrung by the un at that point---the war has nothing to do with the arguments proffered by bush and the other mayberry machiavellians---the only surprise is that so many people actually believed them. now, sadly for bush (but no-one else) both the wmd argument and the iraq as imminent danger via their-link to terrorism in the abstract and al qeada in particular arguments have collapse entirely--the history of american foreign policy since world war 2 demonstrates that the americans have never cared about dictatorships no matter how brutal so long as they were convenient for the americans (think about pinochet, for example, though the examples are legion)--so that argument is crap as well....the discourse that has been floated until recently about terrorism has made thinking on the matter nearly impossible for many people, and that is beyond unfortumate. maybe people should rely less american television for their information.

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it make you sick.

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Superbelt

That's called an intelligence echo chamber. Most of those countries got their intel directly from us. Then we use that intel that originally came from us anyway to justify our actions by saying "everyone else said the same thing"

hannukah harry

glad to see you're finally admitting your gullability...

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

hannukah harry

what world do you live in? i haven't seen any news reports say we're in iraq because of 9/11?

are you just a troll?

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Lebell

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Pacifier

BS
when Powel presented the "proofs" germanys foreign minister said the germany was "not convinced" by those "proofs"

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

pig

Yep, and I think you'll find that they aren't particulary apologetic about it. The truth is strictly need to know, and I suppose that the " 'Merican People" aren't on need to know status.

As for the rest of the Iraqi war stuff, I'll say what I characteristically say about this situation. In my opinion, none of the arguments justifies going to war on it's own. If they were all true, then perhaps I could see some sort of justification for military involvement. Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of them have turned out to be crap. That aside, what I have not understood since the beginning of this things is Why now? In order to make this type of strident military campaign, committing thousands of U.S. troops to the area, and a whole bunch of taxpayer $$$, in a publicly acknowledged "pre-emptive strike" I expect a bullet proof rationale for war (are we actually at war? I mean, is there an official declaration of War. I am under the impression that we are not.) that can listed out on a slide presentation, not exceeding perhaps 10 slides. What a fiasco.

If the Administration / Congress / Federal government can not provide this explanation, and so far they have failed, that is sad. If they are unwilling to because of security concerns, fine. Just don't expect my trust and support. I don't trust and support things that I know are lying or intentionally deceiving by shading / sheltering the truth, even if it is claimed to be for my own good. That is a situation in which I inherently am unable to determine the truth of the claim.

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filtherton

While you many glory in the torture of criminals(or at least endorse said torture with apathy) you must see that torture is not an effective means to spread human rights. It also doesn't help "win the hearts and minds" of the iraqi people. Plus, you have no idea if any of the torture victims were indeed convicted criminals. Many of them quite possible were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got caught up in an american sweep. How would you like a chemical light in your anus for being in the wrong place at the wrong time? How would you like to be forced to suck some sweaty piss-covered stranger's cock because your liberaters got you confused with the enemy? What if it wasn't you, what if it was someone in your family? A child, maybe your wife or your mother? Close your eyes and picture someone sodomizing someone you care about and laughing and tell me again about "oppression".

Imminent threat, as i remember was the whole "Iraq can attack the u.s. withing forty five minutes if they so choose" If that sounds accurate to you than i'd like to tell you about my friend from nigeria.

Lord bush is thy shepherd.

djtestudo

What the FUCK are you talking about?

Where did I say anything like that.

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Zeld2.0

This thread got interesting real fast.. =/

DelayedReaction

I suggest everyone step back, breathe in, take a toke, and relax. We can discuss this civilly. I did a news search using UMD's resources, and found this article from 2003. The Boston Globe has this article on their website (do a search for the headline), but I refuse to register for them.

So although he never actually described a link between 9/11 and Iraq, he also failed to dismiss the claims when confronted with them. To rely on a technicality as justification is unacceptable in my opinion; he should have discredited the claims when they were first suggested as the intelligence community had recommended.

So where does this leave us now? Poor excuses based on thin technicalities are not enough to get anyone off the hook, let alone the Vice President of the United States.

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If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

gibingus

cough, hack, sputter, wheeze.

that is the best advice i have seen in the politics forum yet. i feel much better.

passing it on, to the left hand side.

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if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.