Reagan - An alternative viewpoint - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Mephisto2 · 06-09-2004, 01:33 PM

I'm posting this to foster debate.

I have mixed feelings about Reagan. I do believe that he was probably the main reason the 'Cold War' ended peacefully, but I believe he architected this through brinksmanship and the huge military build-up he instigated in the US. I accept, however, that the end result was positive.

Anyway, the issues I have with Reagan relate to his (and Thatcher's) economic policies. I believe (my personal opinion of course) that these have proven to have been more damaging than positive.

Either way, the following article is an interesting and alternative viewpoint of his legacy.

Quote:

Critics question Reagan legacy
By Richard Allen Greene
BBC News Online

As tens of thousands of Americans file past the casket of Ronald Reagan, some observers are quietly - and not so quietly - beginning to question the accolades heaped on the late president since his death.

Many obituaries have highlighted his sunny charm and good humour, while others have credited him with helping to end the Cold War, restore America's confidence in itself and "get government off people's back", as he himself would have put it.

But critics point out that there was another side to his presidency - record budget deficits, economic pressure on the middle class, human rights abuses in Central America, and the Iran-Contra scandal.

Correctives are being issued even to the claim that he was the most popular president in modern history.

Less popular than successors

Gallup poll data suggest that he was roughly as popular as Bill Clinton over time - with President Clinton running slightly higher approval ratings than Reagan during the second half of each man's presidency.

Past presidents look a lot better when compared to the present
Mark Weisbrot, Economist
And neither ever reached the 90% approval ratings that both George W Bush and his father achieved briefly early in their terms.

Economist Mark Weisbrot says the adulation in the wake of Reagan's death is natural.

"Past presidents look a lot better when compared to the present," he told BBC News Online.

Even Richard Nixon - forced to resign in disgrace - was remembered as a great statesman when he died, rather than as the architect of Watergate, said Mr Weisbrot, of the liberal Center for Economic and Policy Research.

But he is unreserved in his own evaluation of Reagan, dismissing his economic policies as "mostly a failure" and accusing him of backing governments that engaged in systematic rape and torture.

Reagan promoted an economic theory known as "supply-side economics" - which George Bush senior famously derided as "voodoo economics" when running against Reagan for the Republican presidential nomination in 1980.

The theory held that tax cuts for the rich would lead them to save and invest money, leading to increased productivity and lower unemployment.

Weak economy

"None of this happened," Mr Weisbrot said. "If you look at the 1980s, it was the worst decade of post-World War II growth.

"The median wage was flat, and there was a massive redistribution of income, with wealth going to the top one or two percent of the population," he said.

He was like everybody's grandfather - nobody would believe that he would cut student aid or not be for the environment
Patricia Schroeder, Former Congresswoman
He was scathing over the Reagan administration's backing for anti-Communist Guatemalan strongman Efrain Rios Montt, who led the Central American country during some of the worst human rights abuses of its 36-year-long civil war.

"Congress required him to certify that [Guatemala] was improving human rights, which he did. Reagan was praising Rios Montt when there were systematic rapes and tortures going on," he said.

Other critics have pointed out that - perhaps more mundanely - Reagan's fiscal rhetoric rarely matched his actions.

Former Congresswoman Patricia Schroeder still laughs when recalling budget battles with the Reagan White House.

"This is a person who said he believed in balanced budgets but ran the biggest deficit in history," she said.

"He never produced a balanced budget," the self-described liberal Democrat told BBC News Online.

Reagan promised to reduce the size of government - but government spending increased by 25%, adjusted for inflation, on his watch, Timothy Noah wrote in the online journal Slate.

And the number of civilian government employees increased slightly, he added.

"Fittingly, the Ronald Reagan Building... today houses 5,000 employees and is the largest government building in Washington," he wrote.

'Teflon President'

But even at the time the public rarely blamed him for failing to live up to his words - leading Mrs Schroeder to coin the phrase "Teflon President" to describe him.

"No one could believe that he could do anything wrong," she said. "He was like everybody's grandfather - nobody would believe that he would cut student aid or not be for the environment."

She said Reagan's staff managed to deflect blame from the president.

"The White House was very managed. If anything went wrong, they would blame the staff, not him."

The policy reached its apotheosis in the scandal that became known as the Iran-Contra affair.

Banned by Congress from supporting anti-Communist fighters in Nicaragua, Reagan's National Security Council (NSC) backed them secretly - with money raised by selling arms to Iran in violation of a separate US embargo.

When word of the arrangement leaked out, NSC chair John Poindexter resigned; the man who directed the operation, Lt Col Oliver North, was fired.

Eleven administration officials were convicted on criminal charges over the affair.

Impeaching Reagan should certainly have been considered
Lawrence Walsh, Iran-Contra special prosecutor
Oliver North claimed Reagan and then Vice-President George Bush senior knew about the arrangements, but they denied it and no evidence was ever found to disprove their claims.

A special prosecutor's report said that Reagan and Vice-President Bush had some knowledge of either the arrangement or the cover-up.

The arms sales to Iran "were carried out with the knowledge of, among others, President Ronald Reagan" and his vice-president, prosecutor Lawrence Walsh concluded.

The Reagan administration "wilfully withheld... large volumes of highly relevant, contemporaneously created documents", he added.

He said impeaching Reagan "certainly should have been considered", the Washington Post reported.

But Mr Walsh's report was not completed until 1994 - the year that Reagan announced that he had Alzheimer's disease and withdrew from public life.

After her years of fighting the Reagan administration, Mrs Schroeder is now philosophical about the battles of the 1980s.

"History has got to be neutral," she said. "In 30 or 40 years we will look back and see what actually happened."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...as/3788229.stm

Published: 2004/06/09 09:43:05 GMT

Mr Mephisto

rsl12 · 06-09-2004, 04:03 PM

slightly off topic, but...

funny you should think reagan was the 'main reason' for the end of the cold war. i would place more money, much more money, on gorbachev.

Scipio · 06-09-2004, 09:32 PM

Reagan crusaded against big government, but never really cut anything but taxes. Rather than back up the tax cuts with program cuts, he maxed out the American credit card. When he had a chance to reduce one of the most expensive government programs, social security, he instead created the trust fund that today guarantees its existence. While he cut income taxes, he followed those cuts up with payroll tax increases. The left hand giveth, and the right hand taketh away.

His administration was marred by scandal, most notably the Iran-Contra debacle.

Nevertheless, people liked him. He set the tone, and communictated a positive vision for America that people could believe in. People had faith in the man, and didn't have to double check the policies to be sure. His greatest legacy has been in selling the public on the idea that government is horribly ineffecient and ineffective. His policy legacy was moderate, but his rhetorical legacy is conservative, and is in many ways more important.

Mephisto2 · 06-10-2004, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsl12
slightly off topic, but...

funny you should think reagan was the 'main reason' for the end of the cold war. i would place more money, much more money, on gorbachev.

I actually said "probably the main reason". And I didn't mean this as a compliment in any way.

Gorbachev reacted to the massive US military build-up. He realized the USSR was incapable of competing. His only option was to reform the system, reduce arms (hence START and SALT II etc) or jump right in and go to war. Note that is it reported that several hawks in the GRU and Soviet military actually favoured this.

Reagan brought us closer to war than anyone else but Kennedy during the Cuba Missile Crisis. However, not many people know this and the paradoxical result is that it all ended peacefully.

Of course, things are a LOT more complex than just this, but you get the idea...

Mr Mephisto

Kostya · 06-10-2004, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsl12
funny you should think reagan was the 'main reason' for the end of the cold war. i would place more money, much more money, on gorbachev.

Agreed.

Takes one leader to build up arms, takes another to decide not to compete.

Tophat665 · 06-10-2004, 03:37 AM

Thanks, Mephisto. The Love Fest was making me queasy, but there's no way I could have said any of this without being clever enough to get myself banned. And I will leave it right there because I am feeling the rage coming...

onetime2 · 06-10-2004, 04:32 AM

For some reason I don't even want to debate it with you all. I can already predict where the debate will go and there's no sense in dredging it up before the man is even in the ground.

The article is misleading right off the bat. Reagan was praised for the same things before death as he's being praised for in days since his passing. Agree or disagree fine, but the fact remains that the cold war was ended with a good share of help from his policies. The budget deficits run up during his administrations helped to end the cold war. How much do you think the continuation of the cold war for decades longer would have cost the country? Seems like going into debt to defuse an escalating arms race which virtually everyone was convinced, should it continue, would end in death and destruction is a pretty cheap way out.

Additionally, his personality, demeanor, and political accuity allowed him to create strong relationships with Soviet leaders and faith in its people despite decades of propaganda and adversarial relationships.

That's all I'll add to this thread. Enjoy the pendulum away from the detestable "love fest".

roachboy · 06-10-2004, 07:12 AM

isnt the reaganfest longer than that accorded to any other dead president in memory?

i remember hearing factoids about reagan having worked this whole thing out well before he died. who is paying for all this? is this being paid for by the public?

does it not strike you as being more like the kind of public mourning ceremony that you would see in a monarchy?

i watched a little of yesterdays particularly repellent spectacle on one or two of the 24/7 "news" channels--the sequence of the body of the Leader being flown into andrews air force base in particular, and kept thinking of "triumph of the will"

i do not understand......

ARTelevision · 06-10-2004, 07:49 AM

I don't disagree with your assessment of the spectacle.

I figure though, it's the sort of thing a lot of people seem to want. Go figure... The system of government doesn't seem to make much difference when it comes to pomp and circumstance.

Superbelt · 06-10-2004, 08:04 AM

Actually a great deal of the CIC state funeral (which was started for Lincoln) was borrowed from different English nobility funeral processions and ancient Roman funerals for generals and Caesars. Every part of the funeral is standard if you have a state funeral. Nothing special or different for Reagan.

Jay Francis · 06-12-2004, 06:07 AM

Why isn't anyone in the media reminding us of the Resolution Trust and the fiasco of failed Savings and Loans that the taxpayers had to bail out with tax money, all a direct cause of Reagan's policies. And the years it took us to recover from his supply side economics. Not to mention the money wasted on the SDI?

I don't have happy memories of the Reagan presidency.

gibingus · 06-18-2004, 12:32 PM

this "winning the cold war" crap is really driving me nuts, i'm getting so full of it i could puke.

stop me if i am wrong, but doesn't the united states still maintain a considerable nuclear aresenal? the former soviet union? it may not be as big as it was, but there's plenty of radioactive material there to fuck up the planet but good.

why do we persist in ignoring china as superpower, and say that the united states stands alone? china maintains one of the largest standing armies in the world and it's capacity to wage nuclear war is significant. oh yeah, news flash... reagan didn't defeat communism either, we just started sending our manufacturing jobs to them.

why do we ignore the fact that pakistan and india have enough warheads pointed at each other to make kashmir glow green for the next several decades? and they really are not fond of each other.

i have lived my whole life in the shadow of the knowledge that world destruction is only 24 minutes away at any time. that threat still exists and it always will. sorry, but even ronald reagan and his disciples couldn't spin that genie back into the bottle.

the "war on terror" and "cold war" share ghastly similarity when viewed as a means to justify using our government to do terrible things.

06-09-2004, 04:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	slightly off topic, but... funny you should think reagan was the 'main reason' for the end of the cold war. i would place more money, much more money, on gorbachev. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

06-09-2004, 09:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	Reagan crusaded against big government, but never really cut anything but taxes. Rather than back up the tax cuts with program cuts, he maxed out the American credit card. When he had a chance to reduce one of the most expensive government programs, social security, he instead created the trust fund that today guarantees its existence. While he cut income taxes, he followed those cuts up with payroll tax increases. The left hand giveth, and the right hand taketh away. His administration was marred by scandal, most notably the Iran-Contra debacle. Nevertheless, people liked him. He set the tone, and communictated a positive vision for America that people could believe in. People had faith in the man, and didn't have to double check the policies to be sure. His greatest legacy has been in selling the public on the idea that government is horribly ineffecient and ineffective. His policy legacy was moderate, but his rhetorical legacy is conservative, and is in many ways more important. __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

06-10-2004, 03:37 AM	#6 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	Thanks, Mephisto. The Love Fest was making me queasy, but there's no way I could have said any of this without being clever enough to get myself banned. And I will leave it right there because I am feeling the rage coming... __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

06-10-2004, 04:32 AM	#7 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	For some reason I don't even want to debate it with you all. I can already predict where the debate will go and there's no sense in dredging it up before the man is even in the ground. The article is misleading right off the bat. Reagan was praised for the same things before death as he's being praised for in days since his passing. Agree or disagree fine, but the fact remains that the cold war was ended with a good share of help from his policies. The budget deficits run up during his administrations helped to end the cold war. How much do you think the continuation of the cold war for decades longer would have cost the country? Seems like going into debt to defuse an escalating arms race which virtually everyone was convinced, should it continue, would end in death and destruction is a pretty cheap way out. Additionally, his personality, demeanor, and political accuity allowed him to create strong relationships with Soviet leaders and faith in its people despite decades of propaganda and adversarial relationships. That's all I'll add to this thread. Enjoy the pendulum away from the detestable "love fest". __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

06-10-2004, 07:12 AM	#8 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	isnt the reaganfest longer than that accorded to any other dead president in memory? i remember hearing factoids about reagan having worked this whole thing out well before he died. who is paying for all this? is this being paid for by the public? does it not strike you as being more like the kind of public mourning ceremony that you would see in a monarchy? i watched a little of yesterdays particularly repellent spectacle on one or two of the 24/7 "news" channels--the sequence of the body of the Leader being flown into andrews air force base in particular, and kept thinking of "triumph of the will" i do not understand...... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-10-2004, 07:49 AM	#9 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I don't disagree with your assessment of the spectacle. I figure though, it's the sort of thing a lot of people seem to want. Go figure... The system of government doesn't seem to make much difference when it comes to pomp and circumstance. __________________ create evolution

06-10-2004, 08:04 AM	#10 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Actually a great deal of the CIC state funeral (which was started for Lincoln) was borrowed from different English nobility funeral processions and ancient Roman funerals for generals and Caesars. Every part of the funeral is standard if you have a state funeral. Nothing special or different for Reagan.

06-12-2004, 06:07 AM	#11 (permalink)
Jay Francis Psycho Location: Houston, Texas	Why isn't anyone in the media reminding us of the Resolution Trust and the fiasco of failed Savings and Loans that the taxpayers had to bail out with tax money, all a direct cause of Reagan's policies. And the years it took us to recover from his supply side economics. Not to mention the money wasted on the SDI? I don't have happy memories of the Reagan presidency.

06-18-2004, 12:32 PM	#12 (permalink)
gibingus Insane Location: 38° 51' N 77° 2' W	this "winning the cold war" crap is really driving me nuts, i'm getting so full of it i could puke. stop me if i am wrong, but doesn't the united states still maintain a considerable nuclear aresenal? the former soviet union? it may not be as big as it was, but there's plenty of radioactive material there to fuck up the planet but good. why do we persist in ignoring china as superpower, and say that the united states stands alone? china maintains one of the largest standing armies in the world and it's capacity to wage nuclear war is significant. oh yeah, news flash... reagan didn't defeat communism either, we just started sending our manufacturing jobs to them. why do we ignore the fact that pakistan and india have enough warheads pointed at each other to make kashmir glow green for the next several decades? and they really are not fond of each other. i have lived my whole life in the shadow of the knowledge that world destruction is only 24 minutes away at any time. that threat still exists and it always will. sorry, but even ronald reagan and his disciples couldn't spin that genie back into the bottle. the "war on terror" and "cold war" share ghastly similarity when viewed as a means to justify using our government to do terrible things. __________________ if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.