military leaders saying unpleasant things - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

boatin · 05-27-2004, 10:31 AM

So another thread has the entire speech from Gore, and the critiques of the speech are less than thoughtful. I'm looking for some reaction other than "what a sore loser" and "more of the same".

How does the fact that lifetime soldiers are saying these things, and writing books to back it up strike you? For me, it says all is not wine and roses. Does this concern anyone?

Can the folk on the 'right' set aside that these words came from Gore's mouth, and respond? Or are we just blindly partison?

Quote:

And the worst still lies ahead. General Joseph Hoar, the former head of the Marine Corps, said "I believe we are absolutely on the brink of failure. We are looking into the abyss."

When a senior, respected military leader like Joe Hoar uses the word "abyss", then the rest of us damn well better listen. Here is what he means: more American soldiers dying, Iraq slipping into worse chaos and violence, no end in sight, with our influence and moral authority seriously damaged.

Retired Marine Corps General Anthony Zinni, who headed Central Command before becoming President Bush's personal emissary to the Middle East, said recently that our nation's current course is "headed over Niagara Falls."

The Commander of the 82nd Airborne Division, Army Major General Charles H. Swannack, Jr., asked by the Washington Post whether he believes the United States is losing the war in Iraq, replied, "I think strategically, we are." Army Colonel Paul Hughes, who directed strategic planning for the US occupation authority in Baghdad, compared what he sees in Iraq to the Vietnam War, in which he lost his brother: "I promised myself when I came on active duty that I would do everything in my power to prevent that ... from happening again. " Noting that Vietnam featured a pattern of winning battles while losing the war, Hughes added "unless we ensure that we have coherence in our policy, we will lose strategically."

The White House spokesman, Dan Bartlett was asked on live television about these scathing condemnations by Generals involved in the highest levels of Pentagon planning and he replied, "Well they're retired, and we take our advice from active duty officers."

filtherton · 05-27-2004, 10:37 AM

That's wierd, are they selling books or something? Oh, they're not? Well, the liberal media must be twisting their words, or something.

edited because i forgot the

boatin · 05-27-2004, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
That's wierd, are they selling books or something? Oh, they're not? Well, the liberal media must be twisting their words, or something.

thanks for the incisive commentary...

Does it bother you that many high ranking career military poeple are saying such disturbing things about the adminstration/war? If not, why not?

If you are suggesting that there aren't high ranking soldiers saying these things, please confirm that, and I'll do the tedious link dropping sometime.

onetime2 · 05-27-2004, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by boatin

How does the fact that lifetime soldiers are saying these things, and writing books to back it up strike you? For me, it says all is not wine and roses. Does this concern anyone?

Can the folk on the 'right' set aside that these words came from Gore's mouth, and respond? Or are we just blindly partison?

First, a few does not equate to "many". Second they are retired officers who, while I'm certain are very intelligent and well versed in the military capabilities and resources of their day, are no longer as up to speed as those in service now. Those who are in service now who say that things are going well are immediately written off as being pawns of the administration. Those retired generals who are supportive of the war and the accomplishments of the military in Iraq aren't stories so they don't get the press. Drawing conclusions based solely on the words of people who are just about as far out of the loop as the average citizen is ridiculous.

Additionally, General Hoar was never the Commandant of the Marine Corps. He was the Commander in Chief of the Central Command (which covered the Middle East) but he retired in 1994. Most of what he "knows" about the current situation in Iraq is what he reads in the paper.

General Zinni is the same man who thought refuelling ships in Yemen was a smart move.

But hey, to those who take their words as gospel, feel free to believe that they know everything and that the cause is lost. I'm sure they must be right because it's critical of the Bush administration.

Kadath · 05-27-2004, 11:54 AM

Jesus, man. You say that anyone who agrees with these few former military personnel must only be doing it because they hate Bush. Yet you attack them as being out of the loop and a tiny minority. It's not that you are a Bush supporter or anything, right?

Are you an average citizen? Are you capable of judging the knowledge level of a retired general?

Zeld2.0 · 05-27-2004, 10:18 PM

/shrug ill still take words from people who were at least in the know or can see the events rather than just random people off the street thats for sure

boatin · 05-27-2004, 11:39 PM

Thank you onetime2. I now have a better understanding of how this sort of mental dismissal works. I sort of wish of I didn't, but I did ask the question.

pan6467 · 05-28-2004, 03:37 AM

Amazing, when retired generals and military men slammed Clinton for not knowing anything the right was on top of it pointing fingers, crying how weak he was. Didn't matter how long they had been retired.

The right will only see what they want and they will refuse to see anymore. Same with the left.

Problem is, we have all these military men (who a majority are conservative and Republican) screaming FIRE FIRE and the GOP is saying sour grapes and looks away, the Left points out what they say but doesn't do anything but say "See told ya so". While the powers that be on both sides make fortunes on the interior battle between us and don't give a damn who wins in the end because they'll make theirs and be out before the people truly wake up and they have to be held accountable.

So Rome is burning and noone is doing anything to stop it because the 2 parties only want to have control.

Well boys, keep listening to Rush tell ya all is ok, and keep listening to Move on.org tell you how bad things are but offer no policies to correct anything. Rome will burn, Bush will play Nero, and 10 years from now as we scamper trying to rebuild what was great, we can all think back to this time when we needed to work together as a nation but refused to because politics and we followed blindly the men who got rich raped us and left us to die.

If the people are fighting amongst themselves they won't truly notice how bad things are or that there is no true plan to retain the greatness we once knew as a country.

onetime2 · 05-28-2004, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
Jesus, man. You say that anyone who agrees with these few former military personnel must only be doing it because they hate Bush. Yet you attack them as being out of the loop and a tiny minority. It's not that you are a Bush supporter or anything, right?

Are you an average citizen? Are you capable of judging the knowledge level of a retired general?

God you don't even bother reading what I write do you? Where the hell did I say they hated Bush? The only fucking reason they're being quoted by assholes like Gore is that they're critical of the Bush administration. I never said anything about the Generals hating Bush. But go ahead keep making shit up that seems to be the proper way to carry on conversations here in Tilted Politics.

onetime2 · 05-28-2004, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pan6467
Amazing, when retired generals and military men slammed Clinton for not knowing anything the right was on top of it pointing fingers, crying how weak he was. Didn't matter how long they had been retired.

The right will only see what they want and they will refuse to see anymore. Same with the left.

Problem is, we have all these military men (who a majority are conservative and Republican) screaming FIRE FIRE and the GOP is saying sour grapes and looks away, the Left points out what they say but doesn't do anything but say "See told ya so". While the powers that be on both sides make fortunes on the interior battle between us and don't give a damn who wins in the end because they'll make theirs and be out before the people truly wake up and they have to be held accountable.

So Rome is burning and noone is doing anything to stop it because the 2 parties only want to have control.

Well boys, keep listening to Rush tell ya all is ok, and keep listening to Move on.org tell you how bad things are but offer no policies to correct anything. Rome will burn, Bush will play Nero, and 10 years from now as we scamper trying to rebuild what was great, we can all think back to this time when we needed to work together as a nation but refused to because politics and we followed blindly the men who got rich raped us and left us to die.

If the people are fighting amongst themselves they won't truly notice how bad things are or that there is no true plan to retain the greatness we once knew as a country.

The right and left trot out those who agree with them whenever they can. Anyone who thinks differently is delusional. I am critical of everyone who does this but hey that doesn't seem to matter. Having three or four people out of how many hundreds or thousands of retired military come out against something is somehow representative of the collective military knowledge of our country? Please.

The press picks up stories that will create controversy and sell papers/get viewers. Military commanders who agree with current actions (whether it's Bush or Clinton in the White House) aren't stories. Go ahead claim I'm blinded by loyalty to Bush (not directed at you pan) I don't give a flying fuck. I've been critical of Bush far more often than any of you have ever been complimentary of him but yeah it's me that's biased. Yep that's reality.

tecoyah · 05-28-2004, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by onetime2
God you don't even bother reading what I write do you? Where the hell did I say they hated Bush? The only fucking reason they're being quoted by assholes like Gore is that they're critical of the Bush administration. I never said anything about the Generals hating Bush. But go ahead keep making shit up that seems to be the proper way to carry on conversations here in Tilted Politics.

Here I go....Jumping into the Flaming Bait bucket.

While I am sure you feel the need for emphasis in this post, to get across your point (whatever it is). You would certainly be taken more seriously without the explative dropping. In this one little Statement, You used more worthless adjectives than in the entire thread, and why?
Okay so your pissed, welcome to the politics board where everyone gets pissed on a regular basis, but still manage (usually) to avoid acting like children. I personally avoid these Flaming hate fests, because of the pointless diatribe that generally prevails, when I do come from behind the lurking stone, it is usually to try to keep someone from breaking stuff.

Just take a deep breath...if you would.

pan6467 · 05-28-2004, 04:30 AM

While I agree with you on the bias Onetime, I do think the military men coming out need listened to and just to see what they have to say and then be judged.

As my post tries to say, I have come to the conclusion that the partisan politics and hatred is being fed to us by the same people. They make the millions playing both sides against each other promoting hatred and blindness so that they can continue to totally rape us all.

Ok here's an example.

Onetime and I are running clubs. Hottest clubs in town, but not much difference between us.

Now Onetime and I are so powerful tho we end up buying all the other clubs and shutting them down (or we send Johnny "No Nose" to torch them).

So it's just Onetime's Tiki Lounge and Pan's Gin Joint. But there still isn't much difference.

So Onetime and I hate each other and are so greedy, we want to completely destroy the other, but we are both so strong that we can't do it like we did to the others (extortion, buy out, etc.).

So Onetime gets his regs and finds some of my old clients ( drunks who I kicked out) and they start badmouthing me. So I do the same to Onetime.

The people, who never went to our clubs start paying attention to these "wars" Onetime and I have. They start going to our clubs, to check out what all the hype is about and business for both of us picks up.

Meanwhile, Onetime and I are buying up the whole town and county.

Onetime and I see each other at the country club and realize that by having these "wars" with each other we both have gotten so much publicity that business has never been better for either of us.

Onetime and I on the 15th green decide that, if we keep up the hate and the competition of "I'm better follow me" that it would be far better for business than one of us going under because then noone would care and business would fall completely. Maybe someone else would come in and the people would like the new guy even better and the winner would end up losing to him.

So Onetime and I decide to split everything up, maintain a public "we hate each other" while in the back rooms we laugh at how much we are making over all this.

But then we have guys who were in our managements trying to tell everyone what is going on. So I take Onetime's stoolies and put them out, BUT I also show them to have bad histories and not be very trustworthy, so people can blow them off and blow holes in their stories, and the truth gets completely buried and unheard. Onetime does the same top my stoolies. Of course we hype the stoolies publicly as much as possible and our sides each love the others stoolies, but between Onetime and I the stoolies don't know the REAL truth.

Now it's the same with politics. If I blindly follow the Left and he blindly follows the Right. We stay at each others throats looking at who's doing what while the leaders of the parties split up the kitty and laugh at how much they are taking in and what they are truly getting away with.

Drawn out, and in my paranoidal delusional mind it makes sense, but I do have a hard time getting it from up there to out here in a way that probably sounds sane and clear.

onetime2 · 05-28-2004, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
Here I go....Jumping into the Flaming Bait bucket.

While I am sure you feel the need for emphasis in this post, to get across your point (whatever it is). You would certainly be taken more seriously without the explative dropping. In this one little Statement, You used more worthless adjectives than in the entire thread, and why?
Okay so your pissed, welcome to the politics board where everyone gets pissed on a regular basis, but still manage (usually) to avoid acting like children. I personally avoid these Flaming hate fests, because of the pointless diatribe that generally prevails, when I do come from behind the lurking stone, it is usually to try to keep someone from breaking stuff.

Just take a deep breath...if you would.

Thanks for the advice but I chose my words carefully in that post. Notice I didn't attack the poster, I used the expletives to stress my points and the feelings behind them. If you are offended by the words so be it but it was far from a pointless diatribe. Those who continually choose to twist and insert words into my statements are pushing me towards following the lead of other conservatives within TFP and avoiding this area altogether.

This thread was started purportedly to get opinions about these high ranking former military men's opinions. When I expressed my opinion people jumped all over it. If someone doesn't want a fucking answer or doesn't want to actually read what others post then don't bother posting and certainly don't bother posting to insinuate things that aren't there.

Again thanks for trying to calm me down, but I'm really not out of control. Just expressing myself in a boisterous way because previous posts with more civil discourse have been completely unsuccesful.

onetime2 · 05-28-2004, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pan6467
Now it's the same with politics. If I blindly follow the Left and he blindly follows the Right. We stay at each others throats looking at who's doing what while the leaders of the parties split up the kitty and laugh at how much they are taking in and what they are truly getting away with.

Drawn out, and in my paranoidal delusional mind it makes sense, but I do have a hard time getting it from up there to out here in a way that probably sounds sane and clear.

Damn it pan we agree again. While we stand on different ends of the spectrum we share, I believe, a very similar (and correct) understanding of what's going on.

I guess it only makes sense that those who see what's really happening will be attacked by those who blindly follow.

The problem is that certain people do not judge the sources. They sit back and say "Look, these guys get quoted and they've been in the military they must know more than everyone else." Let's not bother to think about the process that gets them to the airwaves or why Gore (or Bush or anyone else) might be quoting them. We'll only think about that when these talking heads oppose our beliefs. It's always "their" side that's wrong and biased. Not "our" side.

pan6467 · 05-28-2004, 05:07 AM

Exactly. And usually when these guys do come out, only the part that benefits whoever is citing them gets quoted, the rest of what they say gets lost or used by the other side to discredit them as being "wafflely". When in reality nothing is cut and dry and all 1 sided. To much to lose if you let the whole truth be heard without bias.

By the way, old sport, how's the Tiki Lounge doing? Need a throw out to take off a little steam this week?

onetime2 · 05-28-2004, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pan6467
By the way, old sport, how's the Tiki Lounge doing? Need a throw out to take off a little steam this week?

I think if you could arrange to have the dumpster firebombed it would really pick up business for the holiday weekend. You know, it adds that little extra bit of danger that so many crave.

Kadath · 05-28-2004, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by onetime2
God you don't even bother reading what I write do you? Where the hell did I say they hated Bush? The only fucking reason they're being quoted by assholes like Gore is that they're critical of the Bush administration. I never said anything about the Generals hating Bush. But go ahead keep making shit up that seems to be the proper way to carry on conversations here in Tilted Politics.

Hello, giant screaming irony.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
You say that anyone(X) who agrees with these few former military personnel(Y) must only be doing it because they(referring to X, NOT Y) hate Bush.

Get your read on. I agree that it could be read the other way if you were in a hurry to smack back. So bother to read what I write. THEN feel free to blast me with profanity.

seretogis · 05-28-2004, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
Get your read on. I agree that it could be read the other way if you were in a hurry to smack back. So bother to read what I write. THEN feel free to blast me with profanity.

I'd like to take this moment to say "fucking" one more time. Thank you.

onetime2 · 05-28-2004, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
Hello, giant screaming irony.

Get your read on. I agree that it could be read the other way if you were in a hurry to smack back. So bother to read what I write. THEN feel free to blast me with profanity.

"But hey, to those who take their words as gospel, feel free to believe that they know everything and that the cause is lost. I'm sure they must be right because it's critical of the Bush administration."

The last statement was a comment about the fact that the "followers" as described by pan don't bother to look at the why's and how's of these generals making it to the airwaves or the true value of their analysis. Because it's critical of Bush there's no need to judge the source or the quality. Nowhere did I say that everyone that agrees with the generals does so because they hate Bush. Only that those who don't bother to think about the value of the comments offered by these generals are the ones who are looking for anything to justify their disdain. But, again, feel free to make shit up.

Is shit enough of an expletive?

And as far as my average citizen status and ability to judge the knowledge level of the generals, I absolutely can judge them. My stupendous analytical skills allow me to know that these generals do not have up to date information. They do not get daily intelligence briefings, they do not know the details of the current strategies that active generals controlling the action do. Please feel free to correct me if you know they have inside tracks to this classified information and why you believe these ex generals would be in the loop. Are the current commanders so in awe of them that they're calling them for advice? Are they such good friends with the current commanders and military intelligence community that they can call and get an accurate picture of what's going on? Not likely as the military approvals necessary to share that information is a clusterfuck of difficulties.

Kadath · 05-28-2004, 06:38 AM

You're so incoherent I'm not even sure what you're arguing any more.

My original statement was this: You say we (the anti-Bush crowd) believe anyone who is bashing Bush because we hate Bush so much. I say that you attack anyone who attacks Bush because you like Bush so much. Agree or disagree?

onetime2 · 05-28-2004, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
You're so incoherent I'm not even sure what you're arguing any more.

My original statement was this: You say we (the anti-Bush crowd) believe anyone who is bashing Bush because we hate Bush so much. I say that you attack anyone who attacks Bush because you like Bush so much. Agree or disagree?

Disagree. There are a number of "anti-Bush" people who actually think about the information presented to them. There are a number of "Bush supporters" who do the same. The problem is that ther isn't a majority who do that in either camp. They jump all over piss ant little stories of no consequence and use them to justify their half assed beliefs.

There are plenty of people who hold anti-Bush beliefs that I respect because they actually vet the information available to them before using it to justify their beliefs.

And for the 800th time I don't even like Bush. I like some of his policies and dislike probably twice as many. I certainly hate all the petty reasons people give to try and justify why Bush is this great evil who will destroy the country. You want to debate the issues debate them don't hide behind "well these four generals say this" when there are perfectly good reasons pointed out about why they probably don't have the best information.

analog · 05-28-2004, 07:04 AM

You're kidding me, right?

I thought we were past this childish flaming nonsense.

I can curse, too. "Closed."

05-27-2004, 10:37 AM	#2 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	That's wierd, are they selling books or something? Oh, they're not? Well, the liberal media must be twisting their words, or something. edited because i forgot the Last edited by filtherton; 05-27-2004 at 11:42 PM..

05-27-2004, 11:54 AM	#5 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Jesus, man. You say that anyone who agrees with these few former military personnel must only be doing it because they hate Bush. Yet you attack them as being out of the loop and a tiny minority. It's not that you are a Bush supporter or anything, right? Are you an average citizen? Are you capable of judging the knowledge level of a retired general? __________________ it's quiet in here

05-28-2004, 03:37 AM	#8 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Amazing, when retired generals and military men slammed Clinton for not knowing anything the right was on top of it pointing fingers, crying how weak he was. Didn't matter how long they had been retired. The right will only see what they want and they will refuse to see anymore. Same with the left. Problem is, we have all these military men (who a majority are conservative and Republican) screaming FIRE FIRE and the GOP is saying sour grapes and looks away, the Left points out what they say but doesn't do anything but say "See told ya so". While the powers that be on both sides make fortunes on the interior battle between us and don't give a damn who wins in the end because they'll make theirs and be out before the people truly wake up and they have to be held accountable. So Rome is burning and noone is doing anything to stop it because the 2 parties only want to have control. Well boys, keep listening to Rush tell ya all is ok, and keep listening to Move on.org tell you how bad things are but offer no policies to correct anything. Rome will burn, Bush will play Nero, and 10 years from now as we scamper trying to rebuild what was great, we can all think back to this time when we needed to work together as a nation but refused to because politics and we followed blindly the men who got rich raped us and left us to die. If the people are fighting amongst themselves they won't truly notice how bad things are or that there is no true plan to retain the greatness we once knew as a country. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 05-28-2004 at 03:41 AM..

05-28-2004, 04:30 AM	#12 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	While I agree with you on the bias Onetime, I do think the military men coming out need listened to and just to see what they have to say and then be judged. As my post tries to say, I have come to the conclusion that the partisan politics and hatred is being fed to us by the same people. They make the millions playing both sides against each other promoting hatred and blindness so that they can continue to totally rape us all. Ok here's an example. Onetime and I are running clubs. Hottest clubs in town, but not much difference between us. Now Onetime and I are so powerful tho we end up buying all the other clubs and shutting them down (or we send Johnny "No Nose" to torch them). So it's just Onetime's Tiki Lounge and Pan's Gin Joint. But there still isn't much difference. So Onetime and I hate each other and are so greedy, we want to completely destroy the other, but we are both so strong that we can't do it like we did to the others (extortion, buy out, etc.). So Onetime gets his regs and finds some of my old clients ( drunks who I kicked out) and they start badmouthing me. So I do the same to Onetime. The people, who never went to our clubs start paying attention to these "wars" Onetime and I have. They start going to our clubs, to check out what all the hype is about and business for both of us picks up. Meanwhile, Onetime and I are buying up the whole town and county. Onetime and I see each other at the country club and realize that by having these "wars" with each other we both have gotten so much publicity that business has never been better for either of us. Onetime and I on the 15th green decide that, if we keep up the hate and the competition of "I'm better follow me" that it would be far better for business than one of us going under because then noone would care and business would fall completely. Maybe someone else would come in and the people would like the new guy even better and the winner would end up losing to him. So Onetime and I decide to split everything up, maintain a public "we hate each other" while in the back rooms we laugh at how much we are making over all this. But then we have guys who were in our managements trying to tell everyone what is going on. So I take Onetime's stoolies and put them out, BUT I also show them to have bad histories and not be very trustworthy, so people can blow them off and blow holes in their stories, and the truth gets completely buried and unheard. Onetime does the same top my stoolies. Of course we hype the stoolies publicly as much as possible and our sides each love the others stoolies, but between Onetime and I the stoolies don't know the REAL truth. Now it's the same with politics. If I blindly follow the Left and he blindly follows the Right. We stay at each others throats looking at who's doing what while the leaders of the parties split up the kitty and laugh at how much they are taking in and what they are truly getting away with. Drawn out, and in my paranoidal delusional mind it makes sense, but I do have a hard time getting it from up there to out here in a way that probably sounds sane and clear. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 05-28-2004 at 04:37 AM..

05-28-2004, 05:07 AM	#15 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Exactly. And usually when these guys do come out, only the part that benefits whoever is citing them gets quoted, the rest of what they say gets lost or used by the other side to discredit them as being "wafflely". When in reality nothing is cut and dry and all 1 sided. To much to lose if you let the whole truth be heard without bias. By the way, old sport, how's the Tiki Lounge doing? Need a throw out to take off a little steam this week? __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 05-28-2004 at 05:10 AM..

05-27-2004, 10:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	/shrug ill still take words from people who were at least in the know or can see the events rather than just random people off the street thats for sure

05-27-2004, 11:39 PM	#7 (permalink)
boatin Psycho	Thank you onetime2. I now have a better understanding of how this sort of mental dismissal works. I sort of wish of I didn't, but I did ask the question.

05-28-2004, 06:38 AM	#20 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	You're so incoherent I'm not even sure what you're arguing any more. My original statement was this: You say we (the anti-Bush crowd) believe anyone who is bashing Bush because we hate Bush so much. I say that you attack anyone who attacks Bush because you like Bush so much. Agree or disagree? __________________ it's quiet in here

05-28-2004, 07:04 AM	#22 (permalink)
analog Banned	You're kidding me, right? I thought we were past this childish flaming nonsense. I can curse, too. "Closed."