assilem

If the beheading of Nick Berg was in “retaliation” for subjecting Iraqi’s (innocent or otherwise) to nude pyramids, wouldn’t a more appropriate response be subjecting him to a weird Iraqi fraternity initiation?

After watching the beheading of Nick Berg and viewing the images of the "tortured" Iraqi’s, I had to ask the question: Which is worse?

If you detect a hint of sarcasm in this post you are probably right.

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OFKU0

I'm guessing 20 posts and this thread is gonzo,...LOCKED.

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Locobot

lets talk about the relative morality of preemptively striking another country with full military force...

llama8

I don't condone either.

I also think I should leave it right there as I really don't want to get on my soap box over who has the right to treat people how they like and who sets the rules of what is 'bad'.

Anyway another 15 posts or so before the flaming starts....

pan6467

We as a people and supposedly the greatest country cannot treat another's culture and belief's less than our own.

While chopping off a head is severe in any culture, it is no better or worse than what we did. True we may not have killed anyone but we did torture them mentally and physically and that is not something to be sarcastic about.

Mental torture can be worse than any death torture as those men may relive that torture every day for the rest of their lives. Is that any worse than killing them? Do they deserve that fate anymore than Berg deserved to be beheaded?

I am in no way condoning what happened to Berg, I just think to make light of the torture we gave the Iraqi prisoners is just as bad. But what's worse is the attitudes of some who do not see the torture as being truly evil and making things so much worse for all of humanity.

If the tables were turned perhaps you would understand.

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llama8

I'd just like to say if I had got on my soap box I would echo exactly what you've put. I couldn't have said it better myself.

This is another serious escalation which truly saddens me. To think that we're all supposed to part of the same species but can do such evil things too each other (I'm talking about the torture as well as the murder).

I'm sure everyone will draw their own conclusions.

Charlatan

Where is Seretogis' troll?

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Zeld2.0

Thank you pan6467 great post!

seretogis

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Seaver

Really? I'm well versed in Muslim culture, and I know how insulting it is for them to be seen nude, especially by a woman.

...

That being said standing nude is NO WHERE NEAR as bad as being ritualistically killed and beheaded, no matter what culture you may come from.

Neither one is acceptable, but dont ever say standing nude is worse than having your parents and the whole world seen you beheaded.

splck

It's all a matter of perspective. ..pan6467, as usuall, said it quite well.

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nice line eh?

irateplatypus

before anyone jumps on my back... i dont' condone either. however...

US prisoner abuse:

1. the prisoners were either criminals or captured enemy soldiers.
2. they were humiliated for purposes of gaining intelligence.
3. the prisoners have decent odds of having american blood on their hands (which, is a part of war. i understand that)
4. ostensibly, the devices used by the americans were being used to save american lives.
5. their faces were covered, the photos were taken and leaked.
6. sparked an intense investigation, 7 soldiers already summoned to a courts-martial.

Berg situation:

1. he was a civilian, his presence in iraq wasn't a physical threat to anyone.
2. berg was kidnapped, not taken prisoner in a war or arrested as a criminal.
3. the man was beheaded in a brutal way
4. the violence and disgrace was videotaped for the purpose of showing the world this act.
5. radicals claim that they will fill "coffin after coffin" like this.

i condemn both, but equivocating the two is ludicrous.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

smooth

I agree.

Or let's echo what was said earlier this morning on airamerica:

Our first move was to "decapitate" the head of the Iraqi military. Remember that first strike the evening before the war started? Yeah, that war, the one where we used "shock and awe" to command respect and terror from the opposition in the hopes of making them cringe in submission.

We weren't particularly worried about Hussein's wife, children, or anyone else who might have been in that complex we "beheaded." We had already convinced ourselves (collectively) that the whole lot of them were evil. It turns out that the person(s) we bombed that night were not Hussein. I never did find out who they were. They might have even been "innocent," but that never made the news. No one particularly cared.

We collectively watched the happenings on live television. As a nation, the more traumatic the shock, the more dramatic the awe, the better. Behead the enemy, shock them into submission, crush them until they are struck into awe at our magnificent power, turn the place into a glass sheet--and watch the whole thing live. The best, most popular, reality television show ever. Everyone I knew was glued to the television.

I'll repeat what I told most of the people around me then, that's a pretty sick mentality.

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Peetster

Let's talk causality.

Do you honestly think this assasination was "retaliation"? Radicals have been and have stated as their life's goal killing westerners. They are smart enough to understand the rhetoric that is going to set us off.

It wasn't retaliation when they assasinated the last American, or retaliation when they hung the bodies of assasinated Americans from the bridge, or retaliation when they crashed planes into buildings. I have yet to hear any apology for any of those actions from anyone.

This is what killers do. They kill people. Read this part carefully: They will not rest until you are dead. Yes, you, the person reading this post right now. Unless you are an extreem radical fundamental Muslem, they despise you. They want to kill you. You are their sworn enemy.

Until you understand the depth of hatred these extreem fundamentalists feel for you, you will not understand the lengths they will go to accomplish their life's ambition: your death.

ARTelevision

I must assume that loathing one's country is a form of self-loathing.

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irateplatypus

i don't know how else to say this... you're wrong.

i've never heard anyone say anything like that. when was the last time you heard someone say they'd love to just drop a freakin bunker buster bomb on saddam's wife? even if you could find an individual who would say that, you're a good 200 million short from making any collective argument. how many times must our leaders make it abundantly clear that the war was against the regime, not the people? how many leaflets must be dropped detailing how best to avoid the action? how many soldiers must be picked off from the minarets of mosques we refuse to level at our own peril? there were civilian casualties... regrettably there were. instead of the self-loathing... why not blame the cowards who hide ammunition depots in hospitals or hide machine gun nests in schools?

it's frustrating when arguments are built on premises that are blatantly false. as soon as you find enough people that desparately need to agree with it... the accusations spiral uncontrollably.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

blkdmnd

True.

My thoughts are that we, the American people and more importantly the American media, are largely responsible for this atrocity.

We've all heard that there have been far worse things done to Iraqi prisoners, that we will soon see and hear about.

However, what we have seen so far is frankly, pretty tame. Stacking naked guys in a pile? Doesn't sound like torture to me. Making someone stand on a box and telling them that they'll get electrocuted if they step off? Big f'ing deal.

The outrage the American public had to the naked dog pile, has given these beheading assholes fuel for their fire. They want us to start fighting amongst ourselves. It clouds the issue of who the enemy really is and in essence gives their cause credibility. (not that our cause is any better or more credible, at least our cause doesn't call for intentionally killing innocents).

Had we, the American public, not made such a big fuss over this goofy nonsense of what a few loser prison guards did for kicks, they would not have been able to use that against us.

By doing this to Berg and blaming it on what we did to their prisoners, they know they are hitting a nerve and they are attempting (and succeeding if you read the posts on these boards) to drive the wedge further and divide the American public.

It's unfotunate that other agendas come into play and influence decisions.


Also, for anyone to say anything remotely resembling the "we got what we deserved" quote I read somewhere on this board earlier, is absolutely idiotic.

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Zeld2.0

I love how people still say its their unending hatred...

Well no shit, because we're there, they're going to hate us

It's pretty hard not to if you were an Iraqi right now

But whatever, I understand the outrage from this on both sides, but NO ONE should be taking the moral high ground on either side's argument right now over some guy's death

Talk about political vultures

crewsor

Couln't have said it any better. There are many who exist only to hate, plot against, and conspire to murder those who dare to believe differently than them. We are targets simply by our way of life. There are two choices. Do nothing, and be easy targets, or attack the problem as best we can.
As far as comparisons between beheading and the abuse the prisoners suffered, thats easy. Which would you choose given the choice between the two. I don't see too many selecting the door with the decapitation behind it.

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Zeld2.0

It's too bad its true though that most people in this world everywehre are fucked up and unfortunately in the wrong way anyways sigh its just frustrating shit these days honestly

Anyways I don't think its worth making politics out of some guys death anyways and i'd rather see this one locked since its not going to get too far

Peetster

They hated us centuries before this decade. If you want to blame someone, blame Constantine. That's when this all started.

I've been there. I've had people spit literally in my face. I've had people blow cigarette smoke into my face. If you don't understand the insult in that act, you aren't armed for this argument. I've had people pat me on the back, intentionally, with their left hand. Again, if you don't see why that's a big deal, you aren't informed enough to add to this discussion. Any one of those digressions carries the penalty of death. Instant death, no court, no jury.

The people that are performing these atrocious acts hate us. You are a fool if you think you can make this better with food stamps and kisses.

Zeld2.0

Food stamps and kisses?

Now hold up one second - I never once made the claim that shit was going to work.

Don't go around for suddenly being there... there are many people in the world who have lived there before and it would be a mistake not to imagine others haven't.

Say what you want but don't expect people to listen much more after calling em fools for not understanding when they are pretty supportive

Sigh I need a break from Politics for a while anyways... everytime some shit goes down the whole place goes berserk with the new masters of the day anyways :-/

Peetster

So far we've been doing pretty well. We don't see a need to lock it just yet. People are venting in a civil manner, and I see only respect and participation. That might change, but as long as we stay respectful this thread will stay open.

Having said that, please recognize that I am passionate about this topic, so the decision to close this thread will not rest with me. I've relinquished that control here, in order to debate.

Zeld2.0

Its fine if the debate is kept well but I think some intention in the begining was to troll in this post anyways which is why I think it might end up on the wrong foot.

Peetster

No, you didn't. But you did suggest that we had some responsability in why they hate us. My intention was to show you that they will hate us regardless of any actions. They don't hate us because we occupy their country. The vast majority of Iraqis are glad we're there. This is a special group, distinct in their sheer loathing for Western culture.

Look what they did with a sword. What do you think they would do with a button?

Zeld2.0

Look I 100% agree with you on those extremists because I myself have been face to face on the wrong side with extremists myself.

My post was mainly pointed towards (though now that i read the rest of the posts, i think it was the wrong poster on a different thread lol) someone who was trying to paint the brush with everyone which was getting on my nerve.

I'm pretty reaslitic about this in that most people are fine and normal but the extremists make a bad name for everyone.

Only thing is, I see a bit of paranoia in a lot of people over this - sure they'd love to kill you, but thats thing, we're here, they're there, and shit happened. I'm mostly annoyed that people need to make political jabs and trolls over a poor guy who died who had tried to leave the country.

That's probably why I wanted to see this thread gone anyways... I'm still wondering how (in another thread) someone equated liberals and abortion with some guy's death... shit going for a smoke anyways

Peetster

Which is why this thread hasn't been shut down. We're all being civil.

I can appreciate your frustration. I'm also frustrated. But I'm not painting with a broad brush, and hopefully haven't gotten on your nerves.

Zeld2.0

No you haven't you're doing it quite civil and fine and hell I'm probably a lot closer to your stand than it might seem at first.

HarmlessRabbit

No, they were all suspected of being criminals or captured enemy soldiers. Many people in those prisons have been let go after questioning. In any event, torture is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Decent odds = some people are innocent. Torturing the innocent is wrong. Torturing the guilty is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Torture is wrong.

Either we, representing the United States of America, have principles or we do not. We ostensibly invaded Iraq to stop the torture and abuse of Saddam Hussein. We cannot say "well, we torture LESS than he did, so there!"

Torture is wrong under any circumstance. If we do it, if they do it, if anyone does it. War is ugly, but war without any principles whatsoever is uglier. Without the basic standards of the Geneva Convention, we are taking war back to the stone age. Maybe that's good, perhaps people need to realize the horrors of war. But, don't try to say "my torture is better than your torture."

Zeld2.0

To all of that I say, two wrongs dont make a right. It doesn't matter whether one is considered more sever another, to me, they're all wrong and we shouldn't be making excuses for either. Period.

smooth

I don't know where you were during the run-up to the invasion. The night before the war started we made one last effort to make a debilitating strike--we bombed a compound we believed held Hussein and his family.

The US public watched it on TV. And then we watched the bombs drop throughout the most populated city in Iraq. We justified the smoke clouds and necessary maneuvers to bring an abrubt end to the war. We dropped bombs on media stations and claimed that was appropriate because they were sending out propaganda.

Every time an issue comes up like this numerous people suggest we just turn the region into glass. You have participated in those threads and seen such posts, so where do you get off acting all disturbed and accusing me of speculation?



It isn't civil in my mind to poison the well. Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy and it's also just plain rude. Implying that my disagreement is a form of self-loathing is not polite. Stemming further disagreement by suggesting only fools don't see it your way is not polite, either.

I've said my opinion regarding events and reactions as I watched them occur. It isn't meant to convince anyone who doesn't want to be convinced. I suspect that other people are reading what I typed and silently agreeing. My words are intended to support them.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

santafe5000

Both are wrong. In both of our societies, they are both wrong.

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Lebell

hmmm,

Away for a day and this is what I come back to.

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Zeld2.0

I wondered about that myself Lebell which is quite wow

analog

*shakes his head at the way the thread was started in the first place*

FishKing

US prisoner abuse?

They should not offered protection as prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention act because they are not armed combatant but instead they are terrorist.

I say let the US have their way.

smooth

BTW, since you seemed to have missed the first line of my reply, take your comments to airamerica instead of accusing me of anything.

What I wrote was a reiteration of what commentators said on the air. I made it clear in my opening that I was repeating their commentary, so there wasn't much point in attacking me personally.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

almostaugust

Both of these acts are sickening. They shouldnt be compared. The power of the visual image is amazing. Neither of these topics would be blips on the proverbial radar if there wasnt this hardcore evidence to back it up. I know that human rights groups such as Amnesty International have been rallying for months about this whole Prisoner Abuse Scandal, but only after the photos have been leaked that politicians and the top brass are ducking and weaving. The power that a visual image has is truly amazing.

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'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe
Maybe this year will be better than the last
I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself
To hold on to these moments as they pass'

irateplatypus

apparently harmlessrabbit in his zeal to find something to counter in my post didn't read my first line.

do you think that by constantly restating that torture is wrong that somehow you've twisted my post into saying torture is right?

thanks for the re-affirmation though.

smooth,

i took your enthusiastic citation of air america as a direct endorsement of that viewpoint. whether you meant it that way or not... the way i read the rest of your post makes it seem that you have no qualms with their analysis. if you cite something without using a full quotation, it's hard to see where there ideas end and your analysis begins. i apologize for any misinterpretation.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

gondath

I voted that the torture was worse for the simple reason that once you're dead, it's over. I suppose this might depend on the method of death, but I believe the death here was relatively short.

The Geneva Convention is not a valid shield for the USA to hide behind, whether it was followed to the letter or not. Americans have already proven they don't have to follow any international laws when they don't feel like it. If the justification can be made of how many lives were saved because of torturing the prisoners, then it will. Anyhow, you don't need a code to tell you how bad it is to torture someone. If you do, then you're beyond all help.