irateplatypus

I've seen a lot of debate on this board, my personal discussions with people i know, and on tv about the nature of the muslim hate for the western world... and more specifically, the United States.

Obviously, the problem of the mid-east brand of terrorism will not stop unless one or both of these two things happen:

1. We kill everyone who would do us harm.
2. Those who would do us harm or we ourselves are changed in a fundamental way that dissuades them from this course of action.

a lot of people tell me the problem cannot be solved until the israeli/palestinian conflict is over. i hope this is not true, because many of those who take the measures of acting/supporting terrorism do not consider victory anything short of eliminating israel altogether. so, it seems that if there are always going to be people who believe that israel shouldn't exist... then the overall root of terrorism can only be destroyed by either the end of israel or the death of those who will not compromise.

i hear a lot of appeasement talk also... that somehow harsh economic conditions are the cause of terrorism. "if only we'd hold out a compassionate hand..." sort of stuff. i don't buy that for a second. the vast majority of the 9-11 hijackers (as well as a large percentage of the terrorist funding/personnel) came from saudi arabia... one of the richest countries in the world. if every single person in that country isn't well-enough off, it is only because of their government... not ours.

so this leads me to believe that we are fighting eachother as purely a war of ideology. and, i can honestly say... i am certain this war has been fomented by the muslim world and not the west. i and everyone i know would be appalled by the burning of a mid-east country's flag or an effigy of one of their leaders. we do not hate the muslim world... they hate/mistrust us to a degree that i think the average American isn't aware of.

what has caused this ideological schism? short of all-out war, is there any realistic way to bridge the gap? i sure hope so.

after all that has happened in history... what can we do from now on best deal with the present ideological divide? what can we do to prevent future ones?

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

smooth

You can start by not making any further erroneous conclusions based on wild speculation and gross generalizations.

fuzyfuzer

^^^ smooth that is rude

you have to remember that white men started this war during the crucades when the muslems took over jerusalem christians and muslums shared the same temples without conflict and it wasn't untill the pope attacked them that we started to hate each other

i think that is where it started and they just never let it go so they blame hundreds of succesive generations for some ass bags of the past

basically we started it and they continued it. we are both to blame but it will be a long time before anything happens about it and the one and the only solution is what worked wonders for coutry and would do the same for theres is the sepeation of church and state but i think too much water may be over the dam there but you never know mirecles can happen.

__________________
"The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited"

"Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

irateplatypus

smooth, show me the error of my ways instead of exposing yours.

i've heard that theory before... and i think there is a lot of truth to it as far as the narratives of the west attacking muslims in the past being used for modern day rhetoric. but i can't help but think that the crusades are being used to foment the real cause of the problem instead of the crusades actually being the root of the problem.

i know it's a tired way of debating things... but hitler used careful arrangement of centuries of selected history to legitimize the persecution of the jews. were the jews of old to blame for the problems hitler was talking about in his present day? no, but he created and used that hate to promote his own agenda.

i simply do not believe that the crusades are what caused the present strife. they may be cited as such, but i believe that is only a distractant. and to say "we" participated in the crusades... the world has changed so much and the U.S. is so far removed from those medieval institutions, i have a hard time swallowing it.

if the overarching narrative for the present day events goes back to the middle ages... then i submit that "we" should have a similar beef with the arab world. the saracens/moors (i know all those groups aren't strictly arabs in totality) tried to conquer europe before they were stopped by charlemagne. they got as far as france in the west and the balkans in the east.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Charlatan

Economics and education.

The average person in the Middle East is extremely poor. When you have nothing you have nothing to lose.

When a leader tells you that it is some (say the USA) that is responsible for your predicament. You sit up and listen.

When you have a lot of unemployed, desperate people (mostly male) who want "justice" there is going to be some hell breaking loose.

These kinds of out breaks of violence happen all over the world, including the US. The one thing that prevents it from getting completely out of hand in the west is an established democracy. Democracy teaches that "change" can come with an election.

In an oligarchy, monarchy or a dictatorship a citizen lives with absolutes. Political change is not a reality.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Bookman

Never ever been verified.

Bookman

I dont want to argue about the Israeli - Palestinian issue too much yet I feel as though there have either been...wrong doing on the Israeli part (occupation), wrongdoing on the Palestinian part (terrorism; although I belive a lot of the Israeli anti-terrorism antics are terrorism themselves) or wrong done by the RICH PEOPLE WHO CONTROL THIS WORLD (The Balfour Declaration and the year 1948 come to mind here).

Is it true that the Jewish doctrine teaches little concern for non-jews? Serious question.
I never really understood the conflict over there but I believe it is the root of our problem today.

Mojo_PeiPei

What hasn't been verified?

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Mojo_PeiPei

I can't speculate on Jewish doctrine, I've never heard anything on it... must be the Zionist lobby.

Fact is Muslims around the world are actively taught hate and intolerance daily in just about every country where Islam is housed.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Bookman

Who and where the hi-jackers were from.
The Administration steered media told who they were about a day later...but never verified.

Bookman

Back up the claim about the Muslims being taught "HATE".

Mojo_PeiPei

15 of 19 were confirmed Saudi Nationals... we are talking about 9/11 right?

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Mojo_PeiPei

Go to Saudi Arabia, or just read up on Wahabism one of the fastest growing sects of Islam. Go to a mosque in Iran, see how tolerant they are. Pakistan is up there on the high-end of anti-west indoctrination.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Bookman

Yep 9-11.
Sooooooooooo, we have 19 faces to names, some of these "names" are still alive. No proof that they were on the planes. Funny with all the camera security we have around they only had a picture of M. Atta from who knows when.
Never confirmed in my book.

Bookman

You are getting further and further away from your initial statement. Funny thing is that as much hate as they are supposedly taught it is our country which is over ther with military bases all in their sh*t.
Tolerance? America's leader said "Either you are with the war or you are with them". How tolerant is that?

Mojo_PeiPei

First off I'm not getting away from anything, my initial comment was backed up with fact. Secondly Bush saying "Either you are with us or them" is not in the same ball park as some Mullah or cleric calling us the great white satan and proclaiming jihad or fatwa that calls for our death.

Bush is right in saying you are with us or them. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem, and this problem is something that effects everyone.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Bookman

You speak from an American perspective which has only one flaw...we Americans enjoy our lives and so-called democratic freedoms yet we as a group dont know how we have them....through taking other people's stuff and using it towards our advantage. So you WONT see how we sit back with a victimized stance all with the bullseye painted on our country while at the same time our policies and actions demoralize and disenfranchise people all over the world. My point= i am more comfortable admitting that the USA takes what we need to maintain our lifestyles and our leaders' economy.

So you think that they teach hate..it may as well be defense.

I think your stance is a bit naive.

Also...I am not trying to prompt response or provoke you.

irateplatypus

i'll bet my kid sister's puppy you can't even begin to back that up.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Bookman

Please...
Puppet regimes (LOOK AT IRAQ).
Isnt it funny how SUPPOSEDLY 15 hijackers were Saudi Arbian, yet we attack Afghanistan and Iraq? Lot of oil in Saudi Arabia huh? Remember that congressional report where the CIA insisted that 28 pages on Saudi Arabia be withheld?? If the pages were not about SA then what were they about? Nevertheless whats with the secrecy?

Mojo_PeiPei

Afganistan was harboring and aiding Al Qeada, it was completely justified and is a perfectly logical move in the war on terror.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Charlatan

True but Iraq is a whole other issue, isn't it?

Mojo_PeiPei

Obviously, that's why in the scope of this discussion, Iraq is a moot point.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Bookman

Why?

Bookman

They trashed Afghanistan...guess what happened over there after that?
Now with the FUNDAMENTALLY FREAKED TALIBAN out...the poppy/heroin business in on FULL BLAST AGAIN.

Peetster

From the Koran:

I know there is a danger in taking quotes out of context and relying on this translation, but I'm not getting warm fuzzies here.

Peetster

I would also like to politely request we stay on-topic, civil and respectful.

Bookman

5.33 says "wage war against Allah"..a bit fanatic but it wasnt the Muslims who went on Crusades.

sprocket

How and why would a US military base in another country incite hatred? We have them in many countries wich do not seem to have much of a problem with it.

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Bookman

What would be the case if other countries had bases all throughout the USA?

irateplatypus

the bases are there because we rebuffed an iraqi takeover of kuwait and prevented a possible invasion of saudi arabia. those bases are there with the consent of the national governments. we were invited there, we remain there because the governments consider us the lesser of several evils... necessary to the stability of the region.

bookman, you're way out of line here. you've been given the challenge and chance to back that outrageous claim up... but you've chosen not to.

ok, back on topic...

harsh economic conditions may be a reason given to these young persons to incite the rampant anti-US sentiment, but why do you suppose they are under those harsh conditions to start with? it would seem that every person in that region should being living as comfortably as anyone in the world. the oil money flow is beyond anything found elsewhere in a per-capita sense. if anything, there economies are being kept afloat by our ever-present thirst for oil. so... why is it that the world's biggest consumer of the main source of wealth for these countries is seen as it is?

to me, the answer appears to be ideological in a way that is arranged to perpetuate the social and economic orders as well. the elite in these countries are suppressing the masses and keeping the enourmous wealth to themselves. the only way they can keep this system going in an age where information can travel like it does is to create a blanket of fear of the western (democratic) world. if freedom will break their stranglehold, then it only makes sense for them to bring hate against those who promote it.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Bookman

Chance to back up which claim?

sprocket

The statement you made, where you inferred that having military bases in other countries could be causing anti-US sentiments or is somehow wrong and unjust.

Then you answered my question with another question instead of explaining your statement. I wont bother to answer that question since irateplatypus wrote the viewpoint I would have expressed:

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

dy156

I think it has more to do with religion than the crusades. The quotes from the Koran touched on it. They aren't going nuts in the streets after reading history books, but after going to Sunday School.

(Before someone talks about how I'm expressing my discriminatory attitude by saying "they're going nuts in the streets", remember the pictures of many Shiite men that were hitting themselves and their children in the head with machetes so that they would bleed alot as they marched through the streets. Yup, that's nuts in my book)

Anyway, it all goes back to Abraham. His first wife, Sarah couldn't give birth, so either found a second wife Hagar-the Islamic version, or got a concubine Hagar-the Jewish version; and got her pregnant with a son, Ishmael. Then Sarah finally got pregnant, and bore him Isaac. Both accounts say that Hagar and her son were thrown out into the desert weeping and without water. The Torah goes so far as to call Ishmael a dark donkey like man that was destined to smite his neighbors, or something like that. God/Allah takes pity on Hagar and Ishmael and a miraculous well appears. Ishmael goes on to be the father of Islam.
I remember Bible stories in Sunday School still to this day. Moses, Jesus and Zacheious, Noah's ark, Jonah and the whale, etc.. I bet it's even more powerful over there, in nations where religion is officially a part of the country. Even if the West didn't have more money and a more powerful military, from the very beginning, young Islamic children think of the Jews (and Christians) as the bad guys that disavowed their people and forced them into the desert. Just a thought.

irateplatypus

please explain to us all in detail how our democratic freedoms are granted and maintained by some exploitation of people (and please be sure to give examples of this phenomenon in the middle east).

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Zeld2.0

Its not simply going to Sunday School as you say

And taken from those quotes, the "wages war against Allah" part sounds more reactionary on there part in response to what they see as the Western war against them.

To put it simply, the rift between the two civilizations stretches back hundreds and even thousands of years.

The stance that many take against liberals is that they think they're out to "hold their hands."

Wrong. They're out to fix the problems. And the problem, simply put, isn't in their religion or hate.

If it were that simple, why do not thousands of them rise up and kill kill kill? Simply put, they don't.

Its political, strategic, and ideological interests coupled with nationalistic principles as well that come to mind. Israel to many is a nation created by the West illegally and unfairly. Maybe not to us, but to them.

And here's another thought:

The large majority of modern day terrorism began in the late 60's and early 70's with hijackings, bombings, etc. in the style as we know them.

The conflict between the Arab nations and the "West" really grew and sparked after the creation of Israel with war after war.

Put that into perspective into the timeline of history and you will see that what we percieve as a long strain of problems in the people is more of factors that have occured RECENT years.

These factors put with an education that is emphasizing these recent problems is creating the strain that evokes many to emphasize the rift.

The rift has always been there, its recent events that have slanted their view.

Fact is, most Muslims aren't out there to kill Americans. Unlike what many believe, they're not out to kill everyone or to create the next Jihad.

It's great that people here can't even understand that the actions of 15 or whatever people in a EXTREMIST group do not even represent a religion that encompasses a billion people.

I mean, what do you say to those in America in extremist or even fundamentalist groups who call for the revolution in the government to their means or those who even openly call for a new government on either side of the political spectrum (from those who want a Christian Fundamentalist nation to a communist one to a fascist one).

What do you say to those who use bombings, lynchings, and so on in say the KKK who use these terrorist methods to put down others.

Its not simply what they are being taught or how they are raised or what they belong to - its what interests are at hand that push people to do that. And to those extremists, who are often people who have no other ways of fighting back (not even rich billionaires are going to spend money on armies and waht not) - or, in other ways, who are not going to find more EFFICIENT ways, terrorism is the way to further a cause.

Zeld2.0

Oh and irateplatypus

If you are looking for answers, look no further than yourself.

To many, this post has the words confrontational written all over it.

If you want answers, you'll have to see the other side. Becuase those who aren't going to and are sure in their answers already, are unlikely to change at all regardless of proof or patterns.

Which is why, this post, is meaningless. Because unless you or any one is wililng to spend time in the Arab nations and to speak with people there, all this talk of them, is pure speculation and meaningless bullshit in the end.

irateplatypus

i'm honestly confused...

i can't decide whether or not you mean thread when you say post.

anyway...
if you're implying that much of what i've written is speculation... then i wholeheartedly agree. that's basically what many of us do on an internet board. speculate, cite, debate... that is why i'm here at least. why you yourself pontificated a bit just above your most recent post... and tfp is all the better for it.

going to a middle-east country is certainly the most effective way to ascertain the truth but i don't believe that efforts to understand the situation from research and discussion here at home is completely vain.

this entire thread is about understanding the situation and "the other side". i've never claimed to have a monopoly on the truth of the situation, if i did i wouldn't have ended the opening post on this thread with 4 consecutive questions. just because i've already given the issue some thought and have already formed preliminary opinions doesn't mean i'm not interested in the opinions of others or that i will not be changed by them.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Peetster

Bookman: Official warning, coming your way. Stop the random bickering.

Got a problem with it, PM me. Wanna discuss it, PM me.

Bookman

What random bickering?
PM on the way.

Bookman

I retreat from this thread as I feel forced to back up all claims to counter claims which are not that well backed up themselves.
I hear Orwell talking right now...
Ignorance is Strength
War is Peace
Slavery is Freedom

In any order you want to put that in.