American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis’
 

This from the BBC

Sorry if this has been posted before but can't see it anywhere. Anway I few things I find disturbing, one that the America media has known about this for weeks, but do not report it straight away because of pressure from the pentagon, and second what kind of training does Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick need in order not to torture someone ?

Well, before someone else gets to it...

The BBC is out to undermine the war effort, and publishes stories like this in order to make the nation-building project fail. Two, those rat-bastard Iraqi terrorists (indeed, all terrorists) deserve it cause they would do ten times as worse things to our guys if they could.

(end sarcasm)

That said, it's shameful that some of our soldiers are out of control like this, and it doubly shameful that action isn't taken to correct these problems when they occur. Actions like these undermine the rightness of our cause. Like most conservatives, I think that a successful occupation/nation building project can only be a good thing for Iraq and the world. However, I think that such a project is unbelievably difficult to pull off, and I also think that we've made too many mistakes already. Should we cut and run? No, but we should be more proactive in pursuing a course that will bring about a good outcome. What I would suggest is that when sovereignty is "handed over" to the Iraqis, we also grant the UN some authority. It would be a good time to do it, and it seems to be politically possible.

http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0429/3250718.jpg
http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0429/3250702.jpg http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0429/3250736.jpg http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0429/3250738.jpg http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0429/3250706.jpg http://images.ibsys.com/2004/0429/3250721.jpg

This kind of shit just gives everyone who hates America more reason to hate us and this time around I would have to agree. I know the Iraqis in this picture are probably bad dudes but what about the soldiers doing that to them. I mean what kind of a twisted jerk do you have to be to do something like that? And where the hell were these assholes commanding officers? The worst part about the mess is that these images have been run on Al Jazeera so many times by now that not a single Arab has not seen them. It is going to make the fight harder for the good soldiers over there trying to do their jobs. These assholes should be locked up in Syrian prison or something.

Wow! What a bunch of dumb asses. I don't care how bored they were, those guys should be lined up in front of a firing squad. They should be made a BIG example of. Talk about making the whole thing more difficult. Shit.

I would like to hear what led to the so-called torture.

The soldiers will be dealt with appropriately, you can make damn sure of that.

Yeah, throw them in prison with the rest of the baathists. Sure, they're US soldiers, but they should never be allowed to put the uniform on again. I hadn't seen the pictures until dimbulb posted them. Totally horrifying.

I don't know what posessed the soldiers to do that. It's just going to make a very difficult job even harder.

Discounting the severity and the lack of 'real' torture, its somewhat reminiscent of what happened in Saddam's prisons. Didn't he electrocute his prisoners as well?

Prisoners deserve to be treated with respect. This is clearly a violation of the Geneva Convention. I think even the German POWs were treated much better than this.

Can't wait for these pictures of Americans humiliating naked Iraqis to make the rounds on the Arab news channels.

Total dumbasses... and even dumber for making videos to showoff for their friends at home.....

Why must the military act this way? (images removed)
 

CBS' 60 Minutes Two aired allegations—supported by numerous photographs and witnesses—that document numerous cases of torture and abuse of Iraqi prisoners inside Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Amongst the photographs were pictures of prisoners with wires attached to their genitals, prisoners stacked in a pyramid, prisoners forced to simulate oral sex on others, and prisoners who appear to have been beaten to death.

The New York Times is now covering this story. A total of 17 soldiers, including a brigadier general, have been removed from duty as a result, and Court-Martials are in the works for at least six soldiers. At least one of those charged blames the military for staffing the prison with reservists, not providing them with procedures for running the facility, and not educating them on the proper treatment of prisoners.

More bad and potentially inflammatory news at a bad time. The pictures are already circulating out there and other articles are already in the works, so it's a safe bet that the pictures will be broadcast on Arab television very shortly—just like they were on CBS.

Of course, there is deafening silence over at LJ "conservatism" and the other bastions of righteousness, although you can rest assured that if our POWs were ever treated like this, they'd be howling like rabid banshees—as would I.

Like Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt very correctly stated:
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."


An Iraqi prisoner had electrical wires wrapped around his arms, his legs, and his testicles. He was told that if he stepped off the box, that he would be electrocuted.


They were forced to get up on one of another in a pyramid, with bags over their heads.


They're in that pyramid, bodies stacked up on one another, and those two soldier guards are grinning like it's some big fun game to play with the prisoners.


They were forced to perform oral sex on each other at gunpoint.


A big, wide smile on the woman's face as she does a thumbs-up and points at the exposed genitals of the Iraq man with his two other prisoners sitting on the ground with bags over their heads.


Again, there are the smiles and the thumbs-up gesture while the Iraqi man huddles on the bodies of his other prisoners in that pyramid.


This is the body of an Iraqi man who died of beatings at the hands of the American soldiers.

So how should Iraqis feel towards American soldiers? Nice war heroes huh?

and i realize that some of you might think that everything above is an isolated innocent of some crazy soldiers have some "fun" - but it's not.. what else did you think would happen in Iraq? when in fact this is how the people of Iraq are being liberated by US soldiers.

This is horrible!

I thought the soldier/kid/sign picture was bad, but this is much worse!
I agree that prisoners should be questioned, and not served a 7 course meal, bu torture and humiliation is strictly out of the question.

Remember the US soldiers that were captures halfway through the war? They were shown on television and the world cried bloody murder because it was humiliating.
I think public opinion favors the U.S. government over Saddam's regime, but still this will shake some ground, and rightly so.

Is this the U.S. army losing control over some of it's soldiers?

Please tell me this video is manufactured...

Damn it man, this is NO WAY to go around policing a country. If you can't make yourself understood, arrest them (if you need to) and tow away their car and their stuff until you can make yourself understood.

How far up it goes is beyond my knowledge but someone is giving these soldiers the wrong instructions.

When you're out there and things get boring... some guys get the crazy idea they don't need discipline (reminds me of vietnam movies for some reason)

Anyways those soldiers should defenitely get their asses canned. What a piss poor representation of our armed forces.

This is sick. I cant believe what those soldiers did. They are going to get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

More photos that were aired on 60 Minutes, here.

International reaction

Free Speech Radio News report from Baghdad on Abu Ghraib prison.

The video is an excerpt from PBS' FRONTLINE. I think it's from this report:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ws/truth/view/

OMFG, what idiots first torturing people and then photographing it. People, don't capture your crimes on media, just ask R. Kelly.

This is disgusting, and those responsible should literally be shot, burned, crucified, drowned, and then buried.

So a couple soldiers are fucknuts...I know! Let's generalize about everyone!

Interesting reaction; it's similar to the one Gen. Mark Kimmitt had last night on 60 Minutes II when he was shown a picture of an Iraqi who had been beaten to death: "It's reprehensible that anybody would be taking a picture of that situation."

As a Conservative Republican I am F*CKING APALLED! (I' not yelling at you Shauk. I'm just yelling.) The president’s response today was not nearly harsh enough either

http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/400653|top|04-30-2004::16:28|reuters.html

Not harsh enough for me GW.

I said they were idiots for torturing people and twice as stupid for taking pictures of the torture.

Sorry if that was unclear.

My Vietnam sense is tingling, something about Mai Lai...

Talk about your bad apples spoiling the barrel. But it's simple statistics I guess... Out of a force of 130,000, you're bound to have 50 or so assclowns.

It really doesn't matter what your politics are, I think we can all agree that this was unacceptable and these individuals should be held accountable and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I also hope they don't just hang the enlisted folks and move on, but that they look into this and determine if superiors knew or condoned these actions and if they have occured elsewhere.

I wouldn't want to be the parent of that female soldier smiling in one of those pictures. I have a hunch she's going to get fewer Christmas cards this year.

Personally, I think these soldiers should be handed over to the Iraqi. Let them handle it. After all, the crimes were committed against their nationals, not Americans. I'm sure the judgment carried out by an Iraqi court will have a more lasting effect than bringing these war heroes back to the States, so they can be discharged, tried, perhaps serve some time in jail and then sell the movie/book rights for a few mil.

The Americans are oh so great!!!

you know damn well that if AMERICANS can generalize the entire military off of these events, that the world will. Bottom line is, the so called untouchable reputation of the US military is in the shithole. I feel anyone who stands up for this can go right down the hole with them, I find it irritating that there are still people in this world who look at this and try to defend the generalization and choose not to comment a single word on what actually took place.

I feel this reaction is common because people see this, and they have no way of defending it, so they attack the person who posted it as some sort of wishing defense. Attacking me or my opinions doesnt change the fact that YOUR countrymen did this to THEIR Citizens. It doesn't make it "acceptable" or worth sidestepping the topic because I choose to think of the military as a brutish method of "peacekeeping"

whats that saying? fucking for virginity?

hrmph.

this really SUCKS

It seems that also british soldiers were involved:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image..._mirror203.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3675215.stm

I wonder how high the estimated number of unknown cases is.

It seems that the coalition not only failed to win the haerts and minds of the iraqi but also lost the motivation of their soldiers.

I hope those soldiers will be punished hard, because those action did not just harm the iraqi prisioners, those actions harmed the whole process of "nation building". Those actions fueled the hatred, because of those action more people will die.

Now that's just not true, I probably will... although I will try not to, it will inevitably happen again...

Seems to me that Levenworth will be recieving a couple of new residents.

WTF were they thinking??

i'm mainly just subscribing to this thread, but i have to ask.

Do you think things like this could be caused by just a general lack of discipline from using too many reservists/not full time military personell? Do you think it's mainly confined to the army branch of the military? and finally...Who in their right mind would take pictures of that..

Absolutely unacceptable. There is already talk about going after the General who was in charge of this group and rightfully so. These "guards" should get the maximum possible penalty.

There is no excuse. The one idiot said something along the lines of being told that they should "stress" the prisoners so they'd be more open to talking but got no direction on how to do it. Why he thinks this is an excuse I have no idea.

Well, that's exactly the point. If you read the current news on the story, the soldiers who were guarding the prisoners received *no* training. Not only were they not taught the rules of the Geneva convention, they weren't taught how to handle prisoners period. Also, they were extremely short-staffed at first.

Now, that said, there is no excuse for the treatment of the prisoners pictured above. You don't need training to understand that abuse and torture are wrong.

So far, I think the USA response has been ok. The president has strongly condemned the actions and appears to be putting fixes in place. Now I'd like to see some followup directly from the president on how the situation will be prevented in the future with structural and policy changes to the armed forces, and I want to see the people involved who are guilty severely punished.

Unfortunately, the damage is done to our national image. We went into Iraq because of Saddam's abuse of Iraqis, I'm sure to many Iraqis we look like hypocrites now.

I'm not directly blaming Rumsfeld, but I do think Rumsfeld's strategy of waging smaller, cheaper wars with less troops is partly to blame here.

Well it seems to me they weren't.

The first thought I had was of the families of the soldiers killed believing in trying to make Iraq a better place all the while some of their peers are whooping it up having a grand ole time. Very ignorant and sad.

Unfortunately, this complete lack professionalism by a few will cast a shadow on everyone equally. And it will also inspire those who disagree with the U.S being in Iraq and give more reason that the campaign is being poorly executed at every level.

I don't know about the last paragraph. Isn't Rummy's whole game plan of smaller wars the utilization of Special Forces and Special Soldiers such as we have going in Afganistan? By nature of that it would appear that Iraq is in contrast to the gameplan. I'm not trying to argue the point so much as I just trying to address it.

It is a shame what this people did though. However there are no doubts in my mind that the book will get heaved at them in the worse possible way.

I was just wondering what people think the chances are of these soldiers being tried in Iraq by the Iraq justice system. After all these offences were committed against Iraq citizens on Iraq soil.

I'd say the chance of that is zero. The USA pulled out of a world-court system for armed forces war crimes years ago. The Bush Administration strongly believes in prosecuting our own troops within the military justice system.

Giving the guilty ones long sentences will send a clear message to troops that this behavior won't be tolerated. Let's hope for many long sentences for the guilty.

well according to this (liberally biased) source:
http://www.counterpunch.org/lind04012003.html
So it looks like it wasn't just more special ops, but also far less troops in general. Like I said, I'm wondering if this cut in troops led to the understaffing in the prison. I think the news said six guards were watching four hundred prisoners?

The thing that strikes me now is that I'm achieving a greater understanding of how horrific Saddam was through the actions of our own soldiers.

I sure as hell hope this was an isolated incident, but it seems that some British soldiers have been accused of similar acts.

edit: i can't spell :)

Not that this excuses it in any way, but has there ever been a modern war where this hasn't happened? It seems to me like an inevitable consequence of the mental state that soldiers are required to have. You strip away someone's normal sensibilities to the point that they think the other person is death-deserving scum, and then expect that idea to go away as soon as they raise a white flag. Its not hard to guess that many people would have trouble with the transition.

Ok, let's get some perspective here. What these soldiers did was reprehensible and undeniably wrong. However, most of the prisoners were unharmed and only humiliated. These are the same Iraqis who strung up our troops from a bridge and dance on our helicopters when they shoot them down. As in all wars, people fuck up. During the first Iraqi war, the only female captured was in a helicopter crash where both of her arms were broken. In the truck, she was raped by an Iraqi. The male soldier who was with her could do nothing but watch. However, she pointed out that every other Iraqi was polite to her, they gave her medical treatment for her arms, and she had no other issues until she was released. Are we going to condemn everyone for the actions of a few?
Also, we will handle the punishment. Do you think that the Iraqis will have a fair trial and a reasonable punishment for the crimes committed? Hell no. They have no justice system.
Whoever suggested that the Americans get shot stabbed, beaten, burned, and executed, please rethink your statements. That was a childish and dumb thing to say. America does not do everything right, but at least we try to make a difference in the world.

I personally don't care how they are treated. I'm sure our prisoners were tortured. I can't must any sympathy for the Iraq prisoners at all.

You personally had better start caring, if you plan to expect humane treatment for troops of ours that are captured. :rolleyes:

Fucking horrific/embarrasing/etc etc, what else is there to say.

Not to sound harsh or anything, but if you really believe captured US troops would be treated better if the US treats Iraqi captives well, I'd say you're pretty naive.

Terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters generally don't care one bit about human rights, *especially* if they happen to be Muslims, and their opponents happen to be evil Americans (or worse: Jews)...

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. Are you saying our opponents will torture our troops anyway, so we may as well torture them? I think that's a horrible attitude. One reason, supposedly, that we invaded Iraq was to prevent the abuses of Saddam Hussein. Now, in one of his prisons, we are conducting the same abuses.

Your statement about Muslims is racist and xenophobic. There is nothing about the Islamic faith that says "you must torture your enemy" any more than there is in the Christian bible.

The USA is violating international law with this torture. I believe Seretogis meant that if we expect other countries, Muslim or non-Muslim, to respect international law, then we should do it too.

Remember when Rumsfeld complained about Geneva convention violations when Saddam put pictures of captured troops on television? If he made those same complaints today, do you think the people would respect his statements?

Perhaps Dragonlich was merely calling mention to the fact that the people kidnapping and taking our boys' prisoners are illegal combatants, and Islamic militants at that. And he's right they are not bound by international laws or treaties, nor have they even conducted themselves with semblence of human decency.

Still we are bound by laws, and as a whole we are better then that.

HarmlessRabbit... I did not say anything about the actions of the US soldiers. I merely stated that the insurgents in Iraq aren't suddenly going to mistreat US captives because of these pictures - they were mistreating captives *before* this news broke.

As for my comments about Muslims: I am not racist, nor xenophobic, and am rather insulted by such a label. I was pointing out that Muslim militants tend to hate Americans and Jews, and will generally not treat them well. I certainly do not want to expand this comment to include *all* Muslims, as you seem to think I do.

However, I would ask you to take a look at prison conditions in most Muslim countries worldwide; I expect you to see treatment of detainees that is much worse than anything these "evil" Americans did. (And no, I'm not saying that this somehow makes their actions acceptable.)

Here's something to think about: do you believe that the common Muslim will suddenly start hating the US because of these actions? I'd say there's two groups: 1) those who hate the US anyway, who will see these actions as just another example of the US being evil; 2) those who do not hate the US, who will see this as terrible, but as a small incident, which (if investigated properly) won't matter in the long run.

Another thought: if people do see these actions as indicative of the actions of *all* Americans, what's the difference between that, and Westerners seeing Al-Qaida's actions as indicative of the actions of *all* Muslims? Or is generalization only allowed if it's your side doing it?

yawn i still find it funny how suddenly one can make a political issue out of this

some people argue just to argue

I heard on CNN that the troops claimed that they weren't trained on the Geneva Convention Rules. To this I say BULLSHIT. They had Geneva pounded in their heads. They just chose to ignore it. We even recieved briefings before exercises.

Unfortunately their acts will cost lives (ours and theirs).

They don't even deserve to be called "asshats". Years of "hard labor" and dishonorable discharges with no benefits seems like the minimum sentence IMO.

You said:
Now, maybe you didn't say what you meant to say, but in my mind there is only one way to interpret that statement: that you think Muslims have a special disregard for human rights.

This is (1) example of what's wrong with this multi-corporate oil war! It IS a Corporate War! The real followers of Islam aren't the ones doing these things to our troops and contractors & it makes me wonder who, in our armed forces is commiting these atrocities to these soldiers. We have met the enemy and he is now us. Perfect - just what Al JAZEERA wanted to see us doing!!! It'S playing into 'their hands' how corrupt our forces are becoming while there. Our best soldiers are dealing daily with a fight that wages war on a soul level (MINDFUL of PRISONERS RIGHTS via The Geneva Conference). The real good soldiers need & want to come home.

I met a few young men & women in battle there - as medics & translators who were told they'd be home by now and it's not happening....they (we) are ALL being played for pawns for the This 3rd World Oil War....whenever we buy into this game war they've devised for our mass consumption - then we are wrong. too. Torture is wrong. Humiliation is wrong - no matter who's doing it.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash5.htm

Key graph:

It seems that this story is not yet done unfolding. At least Bush is "digusted." Too bad he hasn't come out more strongly, and promised to find the perps and hold them responsible.

uhh... that is about as strong a language as you'll hear out of a president. they really don't have the privilege of saying something like "i'd kill those f**ing bastards if i got my hands on them."

the man can do no right it seems.

i'm glad you said that. i'm sick of so many people trying to convince me otherwise. fascists...

:p

And here is what Bush said:

Talk about a passive reaction. His resolve in putting an end to these practices, however isolated, is lacking. The Iraqi reaction to this story is very real, and Bush could have directed something to them, to let them know that such practices won't be tolerated. The sexual nature of the crimes is particularly revolting to the Iraqi muslims. The idea would be to distance the larger mission of peace from the short term problem of tortue and humiliation. I think that stronger rhetoric might make a difference.

And we're there to liberate these people?

Very good points. The worst thing about it is, this is just the kind of fuel that it takes to make the resistance to the occupation stronger. When these assmonkeys decided to do this, and take pictures no less, they put the lives of those out on patrol at even greater risk. As the old saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. These "words" by a handful paint those that are trying to do a good job in Iraq in a poor light.

Thank you. There have been some statements about pictures showing a body after a prisoner was alleged to have been beaten to death. I have not heard about this on the news, and if true, that would be a different situation than what I have heard and read about these humiliating photographs. I know that these actions will make it more difficult for the U.S. to complete its mission there, and I really wish they had not done those things, but I had a different reaction to this than most other people it seems. I hate to sound cold and insensitive, but taking humiliating pictures of them is a far cry from celebrating by dragging bodies through streets, or raping female prisoners, or the torture common in Iraqi prisons under Saddam, or the torture of American prisoners at the hands of other nations. The Iraqi prisoner's identities were even concealed. (humane humiliation?) To the outraged Arabs and Islamic peoples of the world, I want to say, "Wah! Cry me a damn river!"
Though it was still wrong, the fact that these military guards' actions are being investigated and dealt with, it seems to me, is a sign of the difference between a civilized society and one that is, well, not.

First, those men strung up on the bridge were mercenaries, not "our troops"

But anyway. There are additional reports of men who were beaten to death and then dumped in the desert. Men forced to simulate fellatio on each other. Men sodomized with broom handles, men pissed on and men forced to parade around naked with each other.
That last one may not seem like a big deal to us but in the islamic culture that is a huge humiliation.

We are supposed to be better than this, and by and large, we are. But this is just so reprehensible that an entire company could be so accepting or complacent with these actions.
This will get our troops and contractors over there tortured and killed with regularity. Why treat the americans with respect when you actually have proof now that they aren't treating the Iraqi's with any?
And the worst part is, we can't complain about it when they do anymore.

Remember that Halliburton trucker who was kidnapped several weeks ago and just escaped? He wasn't tortured. But you can bet he would have been after his captors heard about this attrocity.
It would have been a lot harder for him to escape if his knees were smashed or his eyes gouged out.

I begin to wonder for how long the situation was known:

(full article: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact)

That's your interpretation, and hardly what it says. I suggest you re-read what I said, and add the pretty important last part of my statement

Now, IF people are terrorists/insurgents/freedom fighters, AND they happen to be muslim AND you happen to be an american, then the terrorists in question will generally act in a rather harsh way, given the history of Islamic terrorism. That observation is not racist, but simply the truth. However, this whole specification is rather silly, given the fact that terrorists in general aren't nice, and aren't going to care about human rights; otherwise, they wouldn't be called terrorists...

M'kay?

Beaten to death? I doubt it. Do you have any idea of the amount of manufactured anti-war propaganda there is running around? I'm sure you do. Hell, there is a video in this thread. Could have been a picture someone found of a dead man from a shooting, or run over, or whatever, and the tag "beaten to death" stuck on it.

As far as the reaction from Bush, well, he's a liar, and just an idiot in general, and yes, I voted for him. Gee, aren't I proud.

Beaten to dead? doubtful.

Is this acceptable in any way? no.

These soldiers will enjoy Lebonworth (sp?) and the Brigadire General that went on air claiming she knew nothing about it will either be fired or be quietly retired. No she probably didnt know but you cant delegate responsibility.

This, along with Bush's embrace of Sharon (not literal), has set back our Middle East diplomacy 10 years. One of the talking heads was talking about how this war in Iraq will be won or lost by the Lance Corporals and the PFC's. How sad to "lose" it in this way.

In an earlier discussion I was having with ARTelevision, I mentioned the two fronts in the War on Terror, the military and the diplomatic (winning the hearts and minds of the muslim world), AKA the hard and soft fronts, and how they are equally important. This latest incident was a major defeat on the soft front.

If diplomacy is to get any better the Muslims have to let go of their hate, sadly this only re-enforces it.

Muslims are not the only culture in the world that have a monopoly on 'hate.' Every culture is proportionately equal in those terms, that being, the individuals who choose to hate rather than those who don't.


The only difference between a change up and a curve ball is the direct amount of spin attached. Could be one factor of many as to why people hate and, while some people don't.

If you think diplomacy is only going to get better based on one group of peoples "hate" for others, you've got a long time coming for any improvement.

Yeah well I say fuck them. You guys can make all the concessions you want to those clowns, but the fact of the matter is change starts in the mosque, and aslong as the whole MidEast is being indoctrinated with hate against the west and more specifically America, the burden isn't on our shoulders.

Yeah well fuck them is a great attitude why our soldiers are dying for another country's ass.

The "fuck em" attitude people have at home tells me that people just don't give a shit and shouldn't claim a moral responsibility if they don't care about that country. This is the same attitude that causes people to "hate" our country so why not be the first to step up and help them stop "hating" our country by wiping the "fuck it" attitude out.

I don't have a fuck it attitude, as stated I have a fuck them attitude, big difference.

The Newshour with Jim Lehear had a big segment about this topic and one of the photographs clearly showed a man beaten to death packed in ice. The three-man panel discussing the issue with the moderator included a retied Lt. Coln who teaches "War Justice", an Arab newspaper editor and Seymour Hersh, an investigative reported for the "New Yorker". None of them contested the evidence in the photo's or the statements in Taguba's report. Of particular interest is this segment of the "New Yorker" article speaking about Taguba's report:


"...A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army’s prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not meant for public release, was completed in late February. Its conclusions about the institutional failures of the Army prison system were devastating. Specifically, Taguba found that between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of “sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib. This systematic and illegal abuse of detainees, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by soldiers of the 372nd Military Police Company, and also by members of the American intelligence community. (The 372nd was attached to the 320th M.P. Battalion, which reported to Karpinski’s brigade headquarters.) Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

There was stunning evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added—“detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence.” Photographs and videos taken by the soldiers as the abuses were happening were not included in his report, Taguba said, because of their “extremely sensitive nature.”

The photographs—several of which were broadcast on CBS’s “60 Minutes 2” last week—show leering G.I.s taunting naked Iraqi prisoners who are forced to assume humiliating poses. Six suspects—Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick II, known as Chip, who was the senior enlisted man; Specialist Charles A. Graner; Sergeant Javal Davis; Specialist Megan Ambuhl; Specialist Sabrina Harman; and Private Jeremy Sivits—are now facing prosecution in Iraq, on charges that include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty toward prisoners, maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts. A seventh suspect, Private Lynndie England, was reassigned to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, after becoming pregnant.

The photographs tell it all. In one, Private England, a cigarette dangling from her mouth, is giving a jaunty thumbs-up sign and pointing at the genitals of a young Iraqi, who is naked except for a sandbag over his head, as he masturbates. Three other hooded and naked Iraqi prisoners are shown, hands reflexively crossed over their genitals. A fifth prisoner has his hands at his sides. In another, England stands arm in arm with Specialist Graner; both are grinning and giving the thumbs-up behind a cluster of perhaps seven naked Iraqis, knees bent, piled clumsily on top of each other in a pyramid. There is another photograph of a cluster of naked prisoners, again piled in a pyramid. Near them stands Graner, smiling, his arms crossed; a woman soldier stands in front of him, bending over, and she, too, is smiling. Then, there is another cluster of hooded bodies, with a female soldier standing in front, taking photographs. Yet another photograph shows a kneeling, naked, unhooded male prisoner, head momentarily turned away from the camera, posed to make it appear that he is performing oral sex on another male prisoner, who is naked and hooded.

Such dehumanization is unacceptable in any culture, but it is especially so in the Arab world. Homosexual acts are against Islamic law and it is humiliating for men to be naked in front of other men, Bernard Haykel, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at New York University, explained. “Being put on top of each other and forced to masturbate, being naked in front of each other—it’s all a form of torture,” Haykel said.

Two Iraqi faces that do appear in the photographs are those of dead men. There is the battered face of prisoner No. 153399, and the bloodied body of another prisoner, wrapped in cellophane and packed in ice. There is a photograph of an empty room, splattered with blood.

The 372nd’s abuse of prisoners seemed almost routine—a fact of Army life that the soldiers felt no need to hide. On April 9th, at an Article 32 hearing (the military equivalent of a grand jury) in the case against Sergeant Frederick, at Camp Victory, near Baghdad, one of the witnesses, Specialist Matthew Wisdom, an M.P., told the courtroom what happened when he and other soldiers delivered seven prisoners, hooded and bound, to the so-called “hard site” at Abu Ghraib—seven tiers of cells where the inmates who were considered the most dangerous were housed. The men had been accused of starting a riot in another section of the prison. Wisdom said:

SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile. . . . I do not think it was right to put them in a pile. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its [sic] ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. . . . I left after that.

When he returned later, Wisdom testified:

I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open. I thought I should just get out of there. I didn’t think it was right . . . I saw SSG Frederick walking towards me, and he said, “Look what these animals do when you leave them alone for two seconds.” I heard PFC England shout out, “He’s getting hard.”

Wisdom testified that he told his superiors what had happened, and assumed that “the issue was taken care of.” He said, “I just didn’t want to be part of anything that looked criminal.”..."

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/

Until you get off of your ass and join up, you're making just as many concessions as any one of those whom you would label appeasers. You scream for war as if you had the courage to fight it yourself.

Exactly what filtherton said

If you say "fuck em" you're going to have to do something

Appeasement isn't just defined as giving concessions, its letting em do what they are doing and saying "fuck em" let em rot because clearly whats going on isn't working

Just because I am not in the armed forces doesn't mean I can't say fuck em'. I'm not going to romantize war or glorify it, I'm not even saying that war is the answer. Literally all I'm saying is fuck them. Tell the Arabs to piss off. If that means getting our oil from somewhere else until we can get a renewable source, cool. If it means pumping even more money into Israel, cool. Hell if it means knocking them upside the head and giving them a swift kick in the ass I'm down with that too.

Right now going to school, the only thing I'm able to do is vote for Bush in November, because I think he is best suited to handle this the way I want.

Dragonlich - you should probably qualify Muslim with "fundamentalist".

I'm intrigued by this though - what is gods name is a "fundamentalist"? Someone who takes the basics of a religion, then goes ahead and completely ignores all its teachings, and uses his (or her) beliefs as an excuse to kill people?

The whole situation out there is spirally out of control. Started with good intentions (well, kinda), badly planned, not particularly well carried out. Now the shit hits the fan. More poop coming the fans way soon, I'd expect.

Fuckin Rush Limbaugh is on the Radio trying to justify what happened. An overdose of pain killers would be too nice of a death for him.

Oh... and he claims there was no outrage when they showed the dead Americans on TV. Talk about revisionist history.

You can say fuck 'em. But in doing so without actually doing anything about it only makes you akin to one of those yappy little dogs who make a loud ruckus but consistently fail to throw down when the time comes to do so. I would suggest that you not endorse a cause that you yourself are unwilling to die for, all the while expecting your countrymen to sacrifice their lives. I would also suggest that you not criticise those who would oppose a war on the grounds that they don't not agree with it as appeasers. The difference between supporting a war from your lay-z-boy and opposing it all together is that the peaceniks don't want anyone to die for a given cause whilst the armchair commanders want other people to die for a given cause. Who's more committed?

How clintonesque, or was that cheney? "i would love to go to war and defend our freedoms, but i'm stuck going to school." Awwww, darn.

I think maybe it is time to tell the Israeli's to piss off. Maybe it is time to give them a whack in the head, you know, kinda like a reality check.But then who would replace them as the most important culture in the world, at least as far as indigenous arrogance goes? Afterall, I think it is a colossal embarrassment that the most powerful man in the world is nothing more than a puppet for Sharon and all the pro-Israeli advisors that "guide' him. That's Bush I'm speaking of. That's why you are voting for him.

Maybe it is time to put the Arabs at the top of the food chain. They have lots of oil that we need. American companies could get billions upon billions in contracts modernizing and developing Arab countries.Seems to me the Arabs have alot more to offer than the Israeli's do.But could we ever get over the incessant whining and complaining of the Israeli's in their never ending desire to monopolize victimhood? Or by that point would we even give a shit.

Yep going to school....

Tough rhetoric but no action has taught a lot to people in the world.

And why do we support Israel and not the Arabs? I'll never understand why we must make everything ideological. Ideological strategy in foreign policy? No thanks.

The Arabs have the thing we want, strategic interests, and as thus our policy of pissing them off is against our strategic interests. Thats how i see it - Israel matters little and should never have been supported in the way it has and is.

They did it first so we can do it too...way to sink to the lowest common denominator. Worst argument evar.

I think everyone here has done a pretty good job of denouncing what happened. So I want to
bring our attention to this Prick:


Limbaugh
I know there are a couple here who listen to Rush. Any thoughts, comments on what he said?
Calling it a frat prank, or no worse than a Britney Concert (said in an earlier episode)

I wonder how he would like getting phosphoric acid from a chemical light poured on him, or get
bit by a dog, raped, or sodomized with a broomhandle or chemical light.

After saying something like that, can any of you still support him?

Emotional release. I like that. Is Rush still addicted to something other than just plain stupidity?

But I must say, and I'm sure someone will take issue with this, Rush does have a point however ignorant it is.

Military personel (and not just Americans) have taken part in hazing type rituals as an initiation of acceptance by their peers for ages. Happens in sports also. Obviously these adolescent engagements still surface regardless of the severity concerning the situation, case in point.

The people who were involved in these actions probably had performed some type of stunts before, in whatever context, and instead of being chastised, were probably cheered on, not only by their peers but also by those in positions of authority. Or for those in a position of authority, maybe a wink,wink, nudge, nudge turn the other cheek attitude prevailed,..you know,..it's just kid's blowing off steam, no harm, no foul.

George Bush said the actions of these few involved were "un-American." Interesting choice of words considering many feel his actions regarding his war in Iraq is as equally un-American. I have to wonder when thinking of these soldiers and of George Bush, how far the apple falls from the tree.

EDIT; as of 2:30 p.m. today as stated on CNN, George Bush apparently knew nothing of the incidents at the Bagdad jail. According to Bush, Rumsfeld didn't tell him and will not accept Rummy's resignation nor will he fire him.

wow, emotional release...

wow

rush is on something to be able to honestly believe that, or even conceive it.

I can see the t-shirts now: I tortured prisoners for emotional release....

plain and simple, enemy or not, you don't treat people like that and i actaully applaud bush for calling the actions un-american. then again, like ofkuo said, a lot of others feel his actions are just as un-american..

Actually, without proper guidance, prisoner-guard relations can quickly turn into an us vs. them situation, which may result in the actions we saw photographed. I think the US military should have foreseen such abuses, given the large volumes of psychological research that has shown the likelihood of abuse in these instances. Furthermore, I think they should have taken steps to prevent it.

I don't think it's fair to turn the soldiers that did this into inhuman villains, as if we're somehow better than them. Research has shown that we are not. (FYI, a study into prisoner-guard behavior was conducted by a US university; a group of normal, regular-joe students was divided into two groups: guards and prisoners, and they would have to play the part for a week or so. The experiment was halted after 3 days, because the "guards" became too abusive...) Anyway, these were young soldiers, just barely adult. They weren't actively being watched by their commanding officers, and there probably was a lot of peer pressure involved.

One way the soldiers might have "justified" their actions: They were in a war zone for months, in fact longer than they had hoped for. These Iraqi insurgents were largely to blame for them *still* being there; they were also to blame for the deaths of their fellow soldiers. If it wasn't for those bastards, the soldiers could have been home already... One can see how such a mind-set, combined with the aforementioned prisoner-guard abusiveness, combined with lack of supervision, combined with peer pressure, combined with sheer stress, can lead to extremes. Calling those extremes "un-American" is pretty silly, seeing that those extremes are just plain human - we are not a nice species to begin with.

(Note: I'm not trying to excuse, just trying to understand.)

One problem with this thinking is that at least one of the accused guards is a prison guard at home so he wasn't new to the situation and several of those pictured were not "young" soldiers.

I think you are refering to the Stanford experiment (http://www.prisonexp.org/)?
It was halted after 6 day (two weeks were planned)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Prison_Experiment

Two soldiers (Ivan Frederick (37y) and Charles Garner (35y)) were guards in their civilian live. AFAIK Garner worked in the death row

Yep and that IMO makes it inexcusable to say "i didn't know no conventions..."

Yeah right...

BS. There is a huge difference between giving your buddy his "blood wings" and violating the Geneva convention. The issue here was a gross failure of leadership. In a disciplined unit the offending swine would have had their nuts crushed long before this became an issue.

I beg to differ. Now that the photos have been shown around the world, they have simply galvanized sentiment against us. What that means, where the rubber meets the road, is that now I have to deal with even more people who will be trying to kill me and my men.

Heads should roll, starting with the CO and the entire chain of command of the prison.

And it looks like one of those heads may end up being Donald Rumsfeld. He is being accused of sitting on this for several months without taking action.

I loathe Donald Rumsfeld, but I actually think he did the right thing in keeping this hush-hush. The potential fallout from this story is the death of American servicemen, so I think it would have been better handled internaly, as was happening prior to the break of the story (though not neccesarily to the satisfaction of the public).

I am not saying that the above reason even entered into his head, but a careful management of this story could have saved lives...

No, not in trouble for keeping this hush hush.

In trouble for knowing about the abuses and torture in the prison for several months. Reading the army reports on what was going on, and doing nothing about it.

I'm with you 100%. And it was leadership at every level which was sadly missing.

I didn't make an excuse, I made a point.

But now I am confused

Originally posted by debaser [/i]
[B]I loathe Donald Rumsfeld, but I actually think he did the right thing in keeping this hush-hush.

What I meant with the Rumsfeld comment is that, IMHO, the good of keeping it quiet (protecting our troops from potential reprisals) outweighs the good of being open with the information...

Yep, I agree. That's armed forces discipline. A friend told me about a case where a nuclear missile was mishandled in a silo. The silo workers then bungled another inspection. The entire chain of command was then removed and replaced.

I don't see a lot of discipline happening here. The armed forces can talk all they want, but unless commanders are being removed from command, I don't think the rank and file will get the message that the armed forces disapproves of their actions.

I understand what you are saying, but to coverup something and let it fester made things alot worse. And now, more humiliation,..panties on some guys head, Iraqi's forced to masturbate in front of female personel or risk being beaten, helicopters shooting and killing wounded unarmed civilians..etc.

Now the reprisals which may take place will be 10 times worse than if confronted immediately. At this level, I would expect a more logical line of thought.

Amazing...

The same thread in "Politics" is going better (read "more polite") than the thread in "General" (which I had to lock).

WTG "Politics"!