Harman

Who can tell me what they really think about Bush.

pan6467

W. is one of those frat boys who lives on daddy's name. I think he's just one of those guys who is simple minded and does what he's told, without question. Someone who's tried to branch away from daddy but never could. And one of those guys who'd rather be out hunting or fishing and out partying with the guys than face any responsiblity.

I don't think he's evil although those around him are. I think W. thinks he's doing the best job he can and that daddy and Uncle Dick and the guys would never do anything to hurt him or the country.

In all honesty, I think W.'s a very likeable guy, and deep down is a caring person. BUT, I think he is just a puppet, doing what he is told and has no idea what is truly going on.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Bill O'Rights

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

tecoyah

I'll Pass.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

onetime2

I think...

Bush understands the complexities of the war on terror.

He's a terrible public speaker when he has to stick to a script but is very good when he speaks from the heart and doesn't try to get across the "talking points" his advisors push on him.

He has tremendous vision as far as the impacts his current actions will have in the future.

He has not done a good job communicating the overall plan to combat terrorism but I believe the plan is sound.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

Seaver

honest: 1.Marked by or displaying integrity; upright: an honest lawyer.
2. Not deceptive or fraudulent; genuine: honest weight.
3. Equitable; fair: honest wages for an honest day's work.

honoust: ?

I agree with bill on this one though... has flamefest written all over it so I'm passing.

pan6467

O yee of little faith. lol Just teasing ya Bill.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Peetster

Faith has nothing to do with this. The track record of Politics threads that start like this is documented.

Bookman

GWB is another Skull & Bones-Masonic figure elected (well not actually) to lead our country. The only problem w/ him & all before him is that the presidential motives never really benefit those who struggle in this American system. Just the rich and those politically ($$$$$) connected.
I dont really think he knows what he is doing.

debaser

I think the lack of foresight in his foriegn policy is without precedent.

Being a "nice guy" and a good 'ol boy does not make up for kicking this country back into the diplomatic stone age. Neither does a 28 dollar tax break.

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Harman

I was just curious about how Americans tought about him. Here in Europe GWB hasn't got a great image. Even worse! With Bill Clinton the bridge between the US and the rest of the world became closer. And now it hasn't been further away than ever.

Bill O'Rights

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

floydthebarber

I tend to agree with this.

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wish you were here

seretogis

Such subjective comparisons are not helpful in any sort of logical debate.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

HarmlessRabbit

What does that have to do with the politics board, Seretogis?

Mojo_PeiPei

I like Bush. Unlike most politicians he does what he thinks is best for the country. I like that he isn't a pollster, and I like the fact that he has some stones. As far as the 'He has sent America back to the diplomatic stone age", I call bullshit. Bush and his policies just revealed Europe and the rest of the haters for who they are.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

debaser

"haters"?

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shakran

I think Bush is a life-long underachiever who frankly is not very intelligent, does not want to know what is going on (he's said this many times, and is proud of the fact that he doesn't expose himself to the news), and who has surrounded himself with some very dangerous people. These people realize that he's not very bright and are using that, and the fact that Bush won't read a newspaper, to completely control what Bush learns. Everything Bush knows comes from his advisors (he's admitted - no - bragged about that as well). As such, they can tell him anything they need to in order to do what it is they want to do.

I also think that last night's press conference was very revealing:

1) he never actually answers the question that he's asked.

2) despite three seperate journalists telling him that one of the biggest criticisms about him is that he never admits when he's wrong, he couldn't come up with ONE SINGLE MISTAKE he's ever made. He has the image of himself as an infallible leader.

3) He admitted that there was nothing Saddam could have done to avoid war. He said that even if he'd known, as he does now, that there were no WMD's, he would have attacked Iraq anyway. This proves that we have a warmonger - or at least a foolish and ignorant puppet who's strings are being pulled by warmongers - on our hands.

4) He is completely incapable of thinking on his feet. Every answer he gave was stumbling, vague, and in the end did not answer the question. He even stumbled and struggled for words to talk about the issue (freedom of iraqis) that he claims to be so passionate about.

In short, this is a man who is not a good president - in fact he is the Peter Principle poster child. The only way he rose to the position he has now is through the influence of his family. He'd never have made it on his own merit.

Mojo_PeiPei

I thought it was more eloquent then asshats or something else.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Mojo_PeiPei

Just to answer #3 he never said he would've attacked Iraq, his words were along lines that he would've worked through the UN to address the situation.

And as said in the past, just because you are a bad speaker doesn't mean that you are a bad president.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Bill O'Rights

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Bill O'Rights

shakran, Mojo_PeiPei calls you on this. Can you back it up...with credible sources? Fair's fair.



Mojo_PeiPei, can you likewise backup your assertion?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Rodney

He's doomed, that's what I think of him. Without making any other value judgment, that's what I think after last night's press conference.

I am involved in an nonprofit organization that hired a new executive a couple of years; this organization consists largely of volunteers, many of whom also support the organization with donations. The new exec consulted no one in the wider organization on decisions; made up her mind on her own, proceeded unilaterally, and never reconsidered. I asked her if she ever had doubts or uncertainty, and she said no.

Well, after she pretty much ran the organization into the ground, we booted her out of there, not without a lot of bitterness. And she hates our guts, because in her mind she was doing the right thing. Because if anything went wrong, it was somebody else's fault, not hers. The rest of us eventually saw reality when the money stopped coming in and key people started quitting, but she never did.

Anyway, I saw Bush making the same moves last night. He thinks he's showing strength by doing so, but he's really showing weakness. He could not admit to a mistake, could not name something he could have done better, saw no reason to say he was sorry about anything. Now that's a man wrapped up in fear, not strength -- a strong man can admit mistakes and grow by them. And however you feel about Bush and Iraq, you must admit that mistake were made. People are only human -- kind of redundant statement, but it needs to be said.

Bush couldn't say he was sorry about September 11. You might ask, what does he need to be sorry about? Well, that it happened. That the government wasn't on top of it. That the whole apparatus of government wasn't somehow better. Doesn't matter what happened under whose watch, he was the guy in charge when it happened. And if he _had_ apologized -- nobody in power has done so -- it would have been a massive catharsis that would have helped a lot of people feel better, _and_ it would have increased his popularity, at least short-term. He thinks that taking responsibility and making the apology shows weakness, but it actually would demonstrate strength -- maybe not to the Beltway pundits who are in a world of their own, but to the great majority of Americans who still think that strength and the willingness to be humble in combination are an American core value.

But he didn't apologize, and didn't admit error in any way. Assuming that he actually believes that, combine that attitude with a volatile situation and you've got a train wreck coming -- in Iraq, maybe even in the economy. The only question is when.

Mojo_PeiPei

THats what Bush said on that issue
full transcript here http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentSe...=1079420334037

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

onetime2

Seems to me that he admits he makes mistakes. Obviously any answer to what "the biggest" mistake he's made since 9/11 would be scrutinized to no end. Rather than give an off the cuff answer which would undoubtedly have been torn apart he decided not to answer it on the spot. Sounds like he may be a bit smarter than many give him credit for.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

JohnnyRock

I think, and this is just my opinion, that Bush is at heart a good man. He is just not a leader. He is trying to impress his father and really doesn't have a grasp on the job and all it entails [thus the need for Cheney to sit in on hte commission hearings]. SOme of this comes from skating by on his father's reputation and money and some of this comes from just not being quick-thinking enough under pressure [more or less he admitted it yesterday]. One listen to the press conference last night I believe sums the case up for anyone who is looking for a change.

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Not only do I not know the answer...I don't even know what the question is!!!

OFKU0

There are similar sentiments in Canada concerning Bush also. The Bush adminisration didn't like it at all that Canada initially passed on military involvement in Iraq. (Passed on by the numbers the U.S wanted, Canada has troops in Iraq, Afganistan and Kosovo). The issue of sending troops to Iraq was debated in parliament and found that the so-called proof was shaky at best: hence no major involvement.

Then Paul Cellucci, the U.S ambassador to Canada gave several scathing speeches pretty much accusing Canada of turning it's back on America. Insulting to say the least. We are polite people. We like to be asked rather than being told what to do. We are proud people, not puppets.

As far as Bush goes. I don't think he has a clue as to how his foreign policy decisions are changing the world for the worse, not better. But that isn't totally his fault, a lot has to do with the agendas of those who are advising him.

I really don't want to criticize Bush and classify him as some sort of an idiot, but I have to wonder at times if he fully realizes exactly the depth and circumstance as to his actions, or inactions concerning what he perceives as making the world a better place by his standards.

Personally as President, I think he is out of his league on a world stage.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

shakran

"Even knowing what I know today about the stockpiles of weapons, I still would've called upon the world to deal with Saddam Hussein"

Unless you plan to change what he means by "deal with Saddam," then he would have gone for the attack whether he knew about WMD's or not.

Here's another bit to back that up. Anyone remember back just before we attacked Iraq? Bush told Saddam "you must disarm, or we will disarm you." Saddam bullshitted around for awhile and finally destroyed a bunch of weapons. As he was destroying them, Bush released another statement, saying that Saddam must disarm AND leave the country, or we'd attack. Bush changed the rules mid-game to guarantee that Saddam wouldn't meet the conditions.

Mojo, your source is the same as mine, and we're interpreting it two different ways. I do not see where "call upon the world to deal with Saddam" means "work with the UN and get them stop Saddam."

I stand by my Statement. Bush has proven many times that he was going after Saddam whether he was justified or not. As we can clearly see today, and frankly as anyone who actually examined the data could have seen before the invasion, he wasn't justified.

The United States has, under President Bush's watch, become an invasion force. We have attacked a soveriegn nation that has NEVER attacked us. They didn't attack us in the first gulf war, and they didn't attack us this time.

We went to war on the flimsiest possible evidence, which has now been all but 100% proven to be a load of crap. Bush & Co. wanted a war, and they were gonna get one no matter what.

mml

Contrary to popular belief, I think that Bush is a very well meaning, thoughtful man who trusts his instincts and believes in going with his "gut feeling" rather than spending large amounts of time "sweating the details". He makes the big decisions and allows others to put them in action. By all accounts he is very personable and has strong convictions. He believes that approaching government in the manner one approaches running a business will ulitmately benefit the nation. He has a strong religious faith and believes intently in Neo-conservative ideals. He is both a Yalie and a cowboy and this allows him to connect with a wide variety of people. He is arrogant (like most politicians) and believes he knows what is best for the nation and dislikes people questioning him or his decisions. This trait, even when he is right about something, tends to create resentment and thus he has become a highly divisive individual.(Something that he never thought he would be.)

He believes in promoting business at almost any cost and in doing so is willing to do great damage to the environment, to education, to a myriad of social programs in the belief that in the long run we will be able to repair this damage and in fact improve the condition of all these things. Short term pain for the masses, will give us all long term gains.

I personally believe he misguided. I do not think he is a Machievellian(sp?) figure, but I do believe that many who surround him are. His lack of intellectual curiosity concerns me greatly, and the like-mindedness of his closest advisors denies him a variety of opinions from which to learn. Dissenting voices are not encouraged (Paul O'Neil is gone an Powell is almost always the odd man out and will be gone if Bush wins a second term).

I think President Bush has made innumerable poor decisions on economic, environmental and social issues. I disagree with his handling of the War on Terror and the manner in which he approached the Iraq War. I personally believe that he has done severe damage to the image of the United States. He has unneccessarily offened long time allies and his poor communication skills are frankly an embarassment.

I believe that this country can and should find a more capable man to serve as our President.

Overall: well-meaning, misguided man who thinks more of his abilities than he has a right.

__________________
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

shakran

Sorry, but wrong. He has never, not once, not ever, admitted to making a mistake while in office. As for not answering it on the spot, if you noticed, he didn't answer ANYTHING on the spot. Most of the questions he answered were not the ones that were asked. The whole q/a session was a big game of "did you make a mistake?" "Saddam is a bad man."


Yes, it is his fault, for purposely not informing himself on what's happening, and relying on those advisors to tell him everything. This also makes a great situation for Cheney and Rumsfeld, because they can call the shots, start wars with anyone they want, and generally have a wonderful time playing Army with real human lives, but in the end, it will be the ignorant leader who gets the blame.

Bush SHOULD get the blame because it's his fault that he's ignorant and it's his fault that he listens to these warmongers, but there's something apalling about Cheney and Rumsfeld being able to do this without getting in any hot water over it.


Oh, and one thing I forgot to add in my initial sum up of Bush. He's immature as hell. He allowed "freedom toast" on Air Force One. It was a juvenile anti-french craze that swept the country when France decided that fighting Iraq was not justified. If the idiots at the local deli want to do that, that's fine, but the President of the United States should be at a higher level than infantile insults.

onetime2

He admitted last night that he has made mistakes that's the point of the quote I attached.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

Mojo_PeiPei

I've always wondered this, but how does Bush getting his information solely from his advisers make him ignorant or stupid/misinformed? I mean call me crazy but I would think that the way intelligence is brought to him is about 10x better then anything anybody gets. How is him not listening to the media a problem? I don't get it? How would him getting news after the fact from public sources help? Where else is he supposed to get his information from? The New York Times? Newsweek? The people that get the information the government wants them to report? The people that get the news after shit has already gone down? Shakran you saying is completely retarded, sorry and no offense to you personally, I just have no idea how a reasonably informed person could say something so nieve and stupid.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

smooth

I don't see Bush as unintelligent.

Rather, I view his bumblings (such as word mispronounciations and folksy sort of pronouncements) to be a carefully orchestrated manuever to garner maximum support from the population.

For those of you abroad who wonder just what the hell is going on here, I'll present my analysis.

Most of the US population is still contained within small, rural cities--between 25,000 and 50,000 people.

There is a prevalent idea among the working class to be skeptical of the educated class--so we see a divide between those living in urban, professional regions and rural, working class regions.

An overwhelming proportion of US citizens identify with Christian values (~90% last time I looked at the figures). A vocal minority of that group are politically active and well-organized. While the majority don't want to impose their values on the rest of the population, the minority does, and, since the values are very similar, the majority of the people don't try to stop religious trends instigated by the minority.

When Bush speaks in a folksy manner, makes mistakes many people envision any other regular folk could make, and places the cherry on top of being a reborn Christian who is just trying to walk his religious sojourn in life, that creates a powerful affinity between him and a huge majority of the population--along with an incredibly powerful, well-organized, and politically active minority.

Behind the scenes, however, he doesn't share working class interests, although it appears like he is one of "us." He shares the interests of the corporate class, and regardless of whether he is "controlled" by them, he does things that benefit the corporate class because he is part of it. He shares the same values and acts accordingly.

When educated liberals point out that his actions are not in the long-term interests of the country (meaning that they are not in the interests of the majority of the population--the working class), it is perceived by them as another attack on the common folk by the ivory tower people.

Educated conservatives enter the foray and make two simultaneous arguments: one directed at other educated professionals justifying the logic of their actions and one directed at the working class arguing that liberals are destroying the values of the country (both moral and religious), anti-american, and engaging in class warfare. Banking on the skepticism of the working class toward professionals, they are able to claim that educated liberals really aren't in touch with them nor do they want to be. Their position gives the working class a feeling of political efficacy, since someone needs to be guarding the henhouse. Based on this, educated conservatives get a pass on their economic vision, which in reality, runs counter to the needs of the working class.

That's how I see it.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Mojo_PeiPei

Rick James: Cocaine's a hell of a drug

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

shakran

Actually, no he did not. He said he's confident he's made mistakes. That's not a definite statement saying "I made mistakes." That's a statement that he believes he has probably made mistakes.

Because without multiple sources you cannot verify the truth in what you learn. In short, he's surrounded himself with yes-men and he believes everything they say.

Nope. Used to be that way, but then 24 hour news services with world-wide resources and realtime satellite uplinks came around. Now, the world, including our own government, turns into CNN to see what's happening.



Because if his advisors are lying to him, reading the facts in an independent source might give him the heads up. You know, for every president before this one, there was a dedicated staff that read through the major newspapers in the US and clipped important articles for the president to read, because sometimes advisors lie, sometimes they get it wrong, and often times journalists have the whole story. Bush, of course, is not interested in that.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Are you saying all media sources are compromised, and are puppets of the government? This IS the United States we're talking about, right?

Well let's see, if he bothered to tune into CNN or MSNBC he could get the news as close to (and in many cases closer to) real time as he can get it from his own agencies. What you're saying is, frankly, apallingly ignorant. You're suggesting that surrounding yourself with people who all think the same way and then believing without question everything they tell you is a great way to run a country. You're suggesting that confirmation sources are NEVER necessary. You're even suggesting that anyone who thinks they are is "retarded," which, by the way, is a needlessly insulting term that automatically weakens your already groundless argument.

pan6467

Am I missing something or are you trying to flame out a thread?

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Bill O'Rights

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Mojo_PeiPei

I think you're missing something. I was trying to be cute and build off of what smooth said, incinuating that Bush's speaking problems come from his cocaine usage. Sorry.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

irateplatypus

i butchered your post to only the portions i wanted to respond to because of it's length. my apologies...

in response to the quotes i've cited... i'm disappointed that you seem to making a direct linkage from rural peoples to "bumblings." true, we in the south and plains states do have a distinctive dialect... but it takes no more liberty with proper english than do the dialects found in New York and Boston.

i felt your argument was well-formed and well-articulated... though i think that to a devoted republican the division of society into classes (or social constructs?) such as educated and working is a foreign notion.

i suppose your proposition is plausible and even logical considering the premises on which is it based. i don't agree... but that goes w/out saying these days

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

boatin

Between Smooth and Shakran, we have some well thought out critique.

With Pan6467's observation of flaming, we have another data point.

Is there anyone on the 'other' side who wants to counter? My belief is that we won't see it. It seems so often that someone will make a series of good points, and someone counters by sticking his fingers in his ears and saying 'i can't hear you'.

Too frustrating for words.

edit: posted at same time as platypus. egg on my face :O) Although I would love to see an explaination for why someone disagrees... The 'two americas' phenomonon is well documented, Smooth's explaination seems to lay some groundwork for how Bush plays into that. Does anyone disagree with that?