Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Politics


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-05-2004, 01:16 PM   #1 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
Superbelt's Avatar
 
Location: Grantville, Pa
Iraq's future. Civil War looming?

With all the problems we have had lately, with cities like Falluja all over Iraq, us losing over 600 actual soldiers. Thousands more injured. We have lost 16 soldiers this month alone and we are less than 5 days in.

Now the Coalition has called for the arrest of this Cleric Al Sadr Very powerful man, we called him an outlaw. I'm not judging whether or not he is. I only care about the backlash. This guy commands many thousands of Iraqi's. This guy is a powderkeg and I see the Coalition tempting him with matches. The Clerics have been very helpful so far in-as-much as they haven't told their people to wage war against the occupiers.

I don't think it is possible to capture him. The result of any attempts will be either the deaths of our forces or the massacre of hundreds to thousands of his supporters to get to him.

If we go through with this either way, it's civil war. I don't think there are any bones about that. I don't think there will be any real stability in Iraq for a very long time. Its going to be hell and if it ever does stabilize it will be under a Theocracy. Most of the other clerics are only barely holding back. They are doing so mostly because of our promised withdrawl date I believe. If we get involved in a war with Al Sadr's followers I don't see how we can realistically pull out in under 3 months. That should bring the rest of them into a free-Iraq coalition against us as well.

Does anyone else really see the future of Iraq any other way than this? Why?
Superbelt is offline  
Old 04-05-2004, 01:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
Addict
 
Arc101's Avatar
 
Location: Nottingham, England
The situation is totally fucked up and it will only get worse. The withdrawal, if it actually takes place will only happen once America is happy that it has Iraq’s puppet government under control. This government will have to kill everyone who opposes it – like Saddam did, or it will get overthrown and a religious government will take over like Iran. I don’t see the ‘freedom & democracy’ that Bush promised happening in Iraq – it will take generations to achieve that, if ever.
Arc101 is offline  
Old 04-05-2004, 01:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
Devoted
 
Redlemon's Avatar
 
Donor
Location: New England
Looming? Sounds like it might be happening. Over on a link in Instapundit.com, he links to this guy in Iraq:
Quote:
A coup d'etat is taking place in Iraq a the moment. Al-Shu'la, Al-Hurria, Thawra (Sadr city), and Kadhimiya (all Shi'ite neighbourhoods in Baghdad) have been declared liberated from occupation. Looting has already started at some places downtown, a friend of mine just returned from Sadun street and he says Al-Mahdi militiamen are breaking stores and clinics open and also at Tahrir square just across the river from the Green Zone. News from other cities in the south indicate that Sadr followers (tens of thousands of them) have taken over IP stations and governorate buildings in Kufa, Nassiriya, Ammara, Kut, and Basrah. Al-Jazeera says that policemen in these cities have sided with the Shia insurgents, which doesn't come as a surprise to me since a large portion of the police forces in these areas were recruited from Shi'ite militias and we have talked about that ages ago. And it looks like this move has been planned a long time ago.

No one knows what is happening in the capital right now. Power has been cut off in my neighbourhood since the afternoon, and I can only hear helicopters, massive explosions, and continuous shooting nearby. The streets are empty, someone told us half an hour ago that Al-Mahdi are trying to take over our neighbourhood and are being met by resistance from Sunni hardliners. Doors are locked, and AK-47's are being loaded and put close by in case they are needed. The phone keeps ringing frantically. Baghdadis are horrified and everyone seems to have made up their mind to stay home tomorrow until the situation is clear.

Where is Shitstani? And why is he keeping silent about this?

I have to admit that until now I have never longed for the days of Saddam, but now I'm not so sure. If we need a person like Saddam to keep those rabid dogs at bay then be it. Put Saddam back in power and after he fills a couple hundred more mass graves with those criminals they can start wailing and crying again for liberation. What a laugh we will have then. Then they can shove their filthy Hawza and marji'iya up somewhere else. I am so dissapointed in Iraqis and I hate myself for thinking this way. We are not worth your trouble, take back your billions of dollars and give us Saddam again. We truly 'deserve' leaders like Saddam.
Unverified, but scary and plausible.
__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.
Redlemon is offline  
Old 04-05-2004, 07:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
Mencken
 
Scipio's Avatar
 
Location: College
via Josh Marshall. . .

Quote:
From today's Nelson Report ...

Gloom...has been building over Iraq. Increasingly, the Wise Heads are forecasting disaster. Wise Heads say they see no realistic plan, hear no serious concept to get ahead of the situation. Money, training, jobs...all lagging, all reinforce downward spiral highlighted by sickening violence. There seems to be no real "if", just when, and how badly it will hurt U.S. interests. Define "disaster"? Consensus prediction: if Bush insists on June 30/July 1 turnover, a rapid descent into civil war. May happen anyway, if the young al-Sadr faction really breaks off from its parents. CSIS Anthony Cordesman's latest blast at Administration ineptitude says in public what Senior Observers say in private...the situation may still be salvaged, but then you have to factor in Sharon's increasing desperation, and the regional impact.
Note: "quagmire"...when you are in a bad situation you created yourself, and would quit in a minute if you could, but which if you did, it would make everything else worse. So you can't...and it gets worse anyway. (Apologies to Bierce...)

1. Comes word from Very Senior Foreign Policy Observers that the situation now unfolding in Iraq is "a qualitative change of very profound significance. The chances of something like a general breakdown after the July 1 transfer is accelerating." The Observation continues: "Even if [dissident cleric Muqtada] al-Sadr is arrested, the whole question is whether the Shi'ia majority is comfortable with continued U.S. occupation." The suggested answer seems to be "no".

-- the Observer goes on to warn that, on the basis of personal soundings within the Administration, the conviction arises that the White House has "no concept of how to manage the crisis, no plan in place likely to work." This Observer last week relayed a concern that President Bush was not being given accurate reports from Iraq, but today, one assumes that even a President who prides himself on not reading the newspapers now grasps that things are not necessarily proceeding to our advantage, to borrow an historic phrase.
I believe the Nelson Report is some kind of insider news cheat sheet passed around the beltway. Doesn't seem to be available online.

Somehow, the words "stay the course" don't quite do the situation justice.
__________________
"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."
Scipio is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 09:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
42, baby!
 
Dragonlich's Avatar
 
Location: The Netherlands
Al Sadr is not at all a "very powerful" man. Compared to the many other clerics, he's a small fringe figure. There will be an arrest, and it will be resisted by his supporters. These will be wounded or killed, but this will not inflict "hundreds to thousands" of casualties.

You really shouldn't blow this situation out of proportion. Most Iraqis still appear to dislike these extremists (especially those in Fallujah), and most wouldn't shed a tear for them.

But still, this is a very tense situation, where one false move could trigger even more hatred, now amongst the "normal Iraqi's". If handled correctly, it will (unfortunately) result in a small number of deaths, but then the "revolt" will stop, when these people realize there's nothing to gain and a lot to lose.
Dragonlich is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 12:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
Upright
 
Location: Austin, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
Al Sadr is not at all a "very powerful" man. Compared to the many other clerics, he's a small fringe figure.
Sadr is not the top dog, true, but he isn't exactly a fringe figure either. Only two clerics have more power than he does, and while both of them are in our camp for now, any moves that result in Shia deaths will make the fence they are straddling more and more narrow. Even Sistani cannot back an occupying force that is killing Shias and retain credibility.

This situation has to be handled very delicately, and I fear that even if this ends badly for Sadr, which it probably will, it will also end badly for us.
LRave is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 02:36 PM   #7 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
Superbelt's Avatar
 
Location: Grantville, Pa
Story in my paper today.

Blackrock Mercenaries hold off hundreds of attacking Iraqi militia in Najaf.

Najaf is the city that Sadr is starting to shore up I believe.
Superbelt is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 03:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
Superbelt's Avatar
 
Location: Grantville, Pa
Is this an "Oh shit" situation or what.

Quote:
A Pentagon source has said up to 130 US troops have been killed in fierce fighting in Iraq.

The large scale battle, described as "intense", has taken place in the town of Ar Ramadi, 20 miles west of Fallujah.

Sky News' David Chater said: "None of this is official yet - none of it is confirmed."

But he added: "It sounds very much like this is being carried out by men who are militarily trained."

Chater described the attack as "highly sophisticated".
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...1130577,00.htm

The only confirmation so far is this one source. If I had another source this would deserve a new thread.
Superbelt is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 05:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
Women want me. Men fear me.
 
crewsor's Avatar
 
Location: Maryland,USA
I see reports of a dozen. I sure as hell hope 130 is not accurate.

CNN link
__________________
We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.
crewsor is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 05:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
Superbelt's Avatar
 
Location: Grantville, Pa
Same here. I hope it isn't 130.
I have been seeing most stories now hovering between a dozen and 20 some.
I hope Sky is wrong.
Superbelt is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 06:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Seaver's Avatar
 
Location: Fort Worth, TX
There is no way the Military could hide 130 deaths today.

If it is correct it'd be affirmed within hours. I'm willing to bet my life savings its full of shit.
Seaver is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 06:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
Mencken
 
Scipio's Avatar
 
Location: College
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...047720,00.html

The lede:

Quote:
As many as 12 US marines have been killed in fierce fighting in Iraq between Coalition forces and what is thought to have been Saddam Hussein loyalists.


Earlier reports put the death toll after the "intense" battle as high as 130.
__________________
"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."
Scipio is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 08:12 PM   #13 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
Superbelt's Avatar
 
Location: Grantville, Pa
I've seen the official, confirmed number to have been 18 dead.
So, it's at least that. In one day.
Superbelt is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 08:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
130 people said to be dead total.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 08:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
 
Superbelt's Avatar
 
Location: Grantville, Pa
Ok, well, that number of Iraqi's won't mean jack over here. But 18 is still high for us. I think the 112 iraqi deaths, if confirmed, will get plastered all over the media over there. I don't think that will be good for us. Already the Sunni's and Shi'ites are starting to put aside their differences, but it is to unite against us. For example, Sistani is now publicly supporting Sadr.

If I had any friends or family over there anymore, the friends who were there are now out for various reasons, I would be extremely worried for them right now.
Superbelt is offline  
Old 04-06-2004, 10:47 PM   #16 (permalink)
Mencken
 
Scipio's Avatar
 
Location: College
Quote:
130 people said to be dead total.
Well, total, yes, but that news source did have a preliminary account that American casualities alone might be that high. Obviously that account was way off base.
__________________
"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."
Scipio is offline  
Old 04-07-2004, 10:09 PM   #17 (permalink)
Comment or else!!
 
KellyC's Avatar
 
Location: Home sweet home
IMO. The US should get the hell out, let them/watch them kill each other.
__________________
Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe?
Me: Shit happens.
KellyC is offline  
Old 04-08-2004, 02:19 AM   #18 (permalink)
Upright
 
Quote:
Originally posted by KellyC
IMO. The US should get the hell out, let them/watch them kill each other.
agreed.. whatever we do there is just a waste. It kills me to hera people say we should pretty much just hold a gun to their head til they figure out that democracy and freedom is the way to go.. its just not going to work.
LpClint is offline  
Old 04-08-2004, 02:24 AM   #19 (permalink)
undead
 
Pacifier's Avatar
 
Location: Duisburg, Germany
Quote:
Originally posted by KellyC
IMO. The US should get the hell out, let them/watch them kill each other.
no way!
you made the mess and now it's your job to solve it.
__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein
Pacifier is offline  
Old 04-08-2004, 03:59 AM   #20 (permalink)
Insane
 
Location: ?
Quote:
Originally posted by Pacifier
no way!
you made the mess and now it's your job to solve it.
No doubt. You shit in your bed, now you have to lie in it.
__________________
wish you were here
floydthebarber is offline  
Old 04-08-2004, 04:14 AM   #21 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Pulling out would only reinforce the paper tiger belief of the US that terrorists have held for 30 years. It's time to put guns to terrorists' heads since the alternative is to allow them to continue putting their guns to ours.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 04-08-2004, 06:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
Pulling out would only reinforce the paper tiger belief of the US that terrorists have held for 30 years. It's time to put guns to terrorists' heads since the alternative is to allow them to continue putting their guns to ours.
Ah, but what's the exit strategy?

If the USA had free and fair elections tomorrow, the Shiites, who are the numerical majority, would win. This would turn Iraq into a religious state like Iran, and would probably start a civil war with the Kurds.

So, the reality is that for all the posturing, the USA won't allow free and fair democratic elections in Iraq for a long time. I assume part of the posturing on the part of the Shiite clerics has been because they realize that the USA power handover is structured to keep them out of majority power.

I suspect that when Iraq does get to elections, that that will be structured in some complicated electoral way to allow power to be divided, perhaps by splitting each region into it's own "state". I don't know how the USA is going to prevent a Shiite president though.

So, onetime2, what do you see as the exit strategy that will leave a majority muslim country with a USA-friendly government?
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 04-08-2004, 09:11 PM   #23 (permalink)
Mencken
 
Scipio's Avatar
 
Location: College
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
Pulling out would only reinforce the paper tiger belief of the US that terrorists have held for 30 years. It's time to put guns to terrorists' heads since the alternative is to allow them to continue putting their guns to ours.
Well, we've all seen how well that's worked out for Israel...
__________________
"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."
Scipio is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 04:59 AM   #24 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Wouldnt it be interesting if by our very presence in Iraq, we are responsible for a Sunni/ Shi'ite reconciliation. If the two major religious sects in Iraq combined against the U.S. we would be in one hell of a world of hurt.
I see this as a dreadful situation, the only way we can hope for peace in Iraq is if these two factions cooperate, yet if they do, it will not bode well for our forces.

Any thoughts?
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 05:03 AM   #25 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Ah, but what's the exit strategy?

I suspect that when Iraq does get to elections, that that will be structured in some complicated electoral way to allow power to be divided, perhaps by splitting each region into it's own "state". I don't know how the USA is going to prevent a Shiite president though.

So, onetime2, what do you see as the exit strategy that will leave a majority muslim country with a USA-friendly government?
Yeah it's a real complicated idea, splitting a country up by regions and allowing those regions (or districts or whatever you want to call them) to elect representatives who share power.

Quote:
Originally posted by Scipio
Well, we've all seen how well that's worked out for Israel...
And we've seen how well ignoring the situation and not responding to terrorist attacks has worked for us over the last 30 years. Until countries and leaders pay a price for their attacks they will continue to grow in intensity.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 06:39 AM   #26 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
Yeah it's a real complicated idea, splitting a country up by regions and allowing those regions (or districts or whatever you want to call them) to elect representatives who share power.
Nice oversimpification. If the plan is so simple, why isn't it in place now? The fact is, the Shiite majority would like nothing more than a religious state. And they are the majority. So, therefore, if the USA doesn't want a religious state, then Iraq can't be a democracy.
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 07:04 AM   #27 (permalink)
The Northern Ward
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Quote:
Originally posted by Scipio
Well, we've all seen how well that's worked out for Israel...
That bigass wall has been working well enough in my opinion, way more than trying to "understand the root causes." Being a pussy with them just makes people laugh at you.
__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy
Phaenx is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 07:46 AM   #28 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Nice oversimpification. If the plan is so simple, why isn't it in place now? The fact is, the Shiite majority would like nothing more than a religious state. And they are the majority. So, therefore, if the USA doesn't want a religious state, then Iraq can't be a democracy.
Not oversimplified in the least. Simple does not necessarily mean fast. In any voting mechanism you need a census and some way to verify the identity of the voters. That's why it's not in place right now.

In a democracy all people are supposed to be represented. Voting by district, state, county, whatever is the best way to achieve that representation.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 01:40 PM   #29 (permalink)
Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate
 
Location: Los Angeles
This reminds me of Henry Kissinger's books on Vietnam...

That a nation not used to democracy with no pluralistic tradition (in Vietnam's case, the Confucian teachings stress one truth, not multiple truths that can be shared, thus making it all or nothing in beliefs) and no identity or common ground that can be shared (not to mention bitter sects/enemies).... it can be a shit hole trying to make a democracy.

Ngo Dinh Diem was to be the democratic leader of South Vietnam... he went autocratic but kept the country in check.
Zeld2.0 is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 03:59 PM   #30 (permalink)
Junkie
 
james t kirk's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Nice oversimpification. If the plan is so simple, why isn't it in place now? The fact is, the Shiite majority would like nothing more than a religious state. And they are the majority. So, therefore, if the USA doesn't want a religious state, then Iraq can't be a democracy.
I never thought I would agree with you, but I guess the stars must be in alignment today and the seven horsemen of the apocolypse are let loose.
james t kirk is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 04:11 PM   #31 (permalink)
Junkie
 
james t kirk's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto
I have a very good friend who comes from Syria.

She is educated, a lawyer, a Christian, and very very western. She lives half of the year in Toronto and half of the year in Damascus.

When discussing Afganistan once she told me that she wished that they would put the king back in power. I said that that would be the last thing they needed - another autocrat.

She said, no, you don't understand that the middle east doesn't work well with democracies like the west. All they have ever known is strongmen type leaders and all you can hope for is that he is a "good king".

Assad in Syria is very much like that. The archtypal "strongman". We in the west think that he is a brutal dictator, but the truth of the matter is that he, and the King of Jordan, and (gasp) even Saddam keep their countries working by suppressing any sort of uprising.

We tend to glamourize uprisings as a noble expression of the people, but in many cases they are extremists who want to merely set themselves up in power.

In Syria my friend told me that there was once a hard line muslim uprising (Assad is quite secular) and it was brutally put down.

Whether we like it or not, this is not as bad as the alternative.

As much as I dislike Bush, I think his idea of "Democracy in Iraq" was a noble idea. He and allot of people (wrongly) figured that if you just got rid of the strongman, that people would embrace democracy as we have in the west and live happily ever after.

Nice pipe dream, far from reality.

What you have is several different groups now striving to become pope of Iraq. Trying to fill the void and rewrite Iraq as they see fit.

I guess it comes down to the fact that you can not affect sociological changes at the end of an M-16. It takes hundreds of years and there must be a popular will amoung the people that that is indeed the way they will go.

When that happens, the people will naturally rise up and the old oppressive regime will be toppled.

We have seen it from the Magna Carta right on through to Soviet Georgia a few months ago.

Until the people rise up themselves, we are kidding ourselves thinking that we can hand them "democracy" on a silver platter and they will embrace.

Most Iraqis don't even know, or care, what democracy is.

They are too busy listening to the local Ayatollah.
james t kirk is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 04:17 PM   #32 (permalink)
Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate
 
Location: Los Angeles
james t kirk brings up a good point: if after hundreds and even thousands of years your society has lived under autocratic rule - sudden overnight freedom or democracy can cause a lot of problems

the world is mostly made up of autocratic nations and yes even in our own "backyard" (South America/Latin America) a good nubmer of countries are autocratic - many if not most have tried forms of democracy but the tradition of military strongmen and dictators has kept those nations so...

thats why we often use the word "Americanism" - a common set of values and beliefs that Americans in general share - in many nations, however, they have their own form

/shrug - good discussion on this stuff btw!
Zeld2.0 is offline  
Old 04-09-2004, 06:32 PM   #33 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by james t kirk
I never thought I would agree with you, but I guess the stars must be in alignment today and the seven horsemen of the apocolypse are let loose.
Heh, I completely agree with your post too. What's next, cats and dogs living together?
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 04-10-2004, 06:43 AM   #34 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by james t kirk

All they have ever known is strongmen type leaders and all you can hope for is that he is a "good king".

Until democracy is tried no one can "know" that it can't work. Just because that's all they've known, it doesn't mean that it's all that will work.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 04-10-2004, 09:01 AM   #35 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
Until democracy is tried no one can "know" that it can't work. Just because that's all they've known, it doesn't mean that it's all that will work.
So you're in favor of making Iraq a Shiite-led country? Just checking.
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 04-10-2004, 09:47 AM   #36 (permalink)
Junkie
 
filtherton's Avatar
 
Location: In the land of ice and snow.
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
Until democracy is tried no one can "know" that it can't work. Just because that's all they've known, it doesn't mean that it's all that will work.
That's a pretty huge gamble, given the stakes.
filtherton is offline  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:21 AM   #37 (permalink)
Thats MR. Muffin Face now
 
losthellhound's Avatar
 
Location: Everywhere work sends me
Everyone talks about democracy, and how we have to get it to the countries of the middle east (like Iraq).. Who says they want it or need it?

These regions have a rich history spanning ten times the life of the "west" and America, and not with democracy. Who is to say that the common people will be served by democracy?

I remember pundits and journalists making snarky comments on the Loya Jirga, saying "thats not right, its not even an election" when this is a process that is time honored.

just a thought, but maybe we're going about this the wrong way...
__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death
losthellhound is offline  
Old 04-10-2004, 10:32 AM   #38 (permalink)
42, baby!
 
Dragonlich's Avatar
 
Location: The Netherlands
We didn't have democracy in the western world until quite recently, if you look back at the whole of history. There were brief periods of relative democracy (Greece, Romans, 19th century and onward), but these were (until recently) not universal. Therefore, I'd say that the "history of autocratic rule" is something that we experienced too.

I expect the people in the middle-east to be as good as us at building a lasting democracy. Perhaps it'll take time, but they'll get there. One essential first step seems to be a firm seperation of church and state, like in Turkey - a democratic Muslim country, one of the few examples. It *is* possible, and it's been done.
Dragonlich is offline  
Old 04-10-2004, 11:41 AM   #39 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Quote:
Originally posted by losthellhound
Everyone talks about democracy, and how we have to get it to the countries of the middle east (like Iraq).. Who says they want it or need it?
You raise a really good point. I see a couple of responses claiming that Iraqi's don't know what democracy is.

I think they might say they have seen the West practice it and don't want it. That's the irony of freedom--some people can choose not to exercise it (or cede their rights to someone else). While it may seem like they don't have control, uprising, even only to be killed, would be the only demonstration that they desire to take back their autonomy.

The bleeding edge of fem theory argues that women in the Middle East are using their burqas as shields against Western Freedom--which some of them feel is oppressive. That is, their wearing burqas is equivalent to our women bearing breasts. Now that seems bizarre to some of us, I'm sure, but that's research coming out of ME women's mouths to women interviewers--and I don't have anything to rebut it other than my own ideology.
smooth is offline  
Old 04-10-2004, 02:36 PM   #40 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
So you're in favor of making Iraq a Shiite-led country? Just checking.
SO long as it's led by a Shiite under the rules set forth in the constitution, absolutely.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
 

Tags
civil, future, iraq, looming, war

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:00 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360