Aladdin Sane

I've come to the conclusion that political debate/argument/discussion is not interesting. Why? In 25 years of political discussions I have never seen someone actually concede that the other side is right on a major issue. Those involved are, in reality, only talking to themselves and their supporters. All is vanity.

Have you ever seen someone actually change their opinion as a result of a political debate/discussion? If so, I would like to hear about it.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

filtherton

Its like climbing a mountain. You do it because it's there. IOW many people find it to be a highly agreeable recreational activity. Arguing for the sake of argument is as american as apple pie. Very few things that are said here have any importance to anybody in terms of actual worldly politics. It's not like any of us are in a position to implement our personal idea of effective foreign policy. Nor will arguing on the internet bring any of our other political desires closer to fruition.

I think the main reason i shove my face in around here is to test my positions. Check for any leaks. Get an idea of what the dissenters think. Further define where i stand and whether i'm full of shit or not.

I agree that most political debate in it's current form is not interesting. Too many people with nothing to say screaming at the top of their lungs. Anyone with the mind for it and enough knowledge on an issue can succesfully argue either side of said issue and be right regardless of which side they choose.

There's so much gray area in politics. You need not just facts, but idealogy. Facts are handy when they support your idealogy, but they aren't essential. So many political discussions some down to a simple difference in perspective. Unfortunately for political discussions, perspective is more often the result of experience and/or the media than the result of rational discussion. Facts have little do with it. "I believe what i believe and i'll be damned if i let any kind of logic sway my opinion" defines many discussions.

I guess to answer your question. Depending on the person, the point varies. For most people it seems that preaching to the choir and sniping at the opposition is the point.

Superbelt

I also like doing this as a recreational activity.

Though I do have some hope that I could be influencing people. There are plenty of lurkers in this forum who don't post or hardly post. I think they are open to either side and a good argument could sway them one way.
I post and argue for those people.

mml

I simply like to hear myself speak.



Actually I like to be challenged. If the ideals that I hold to be true, are not tested, then they hold no weight.

__________________
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

Sparhawk

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Lebell

This:

And this:





To be honest, I've modified slightly my position on abortion and I'm less of a Bush supporter than I was, but since I've been doing this awhile (having debates, that is), there are very few arguments I haven't heard.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

HarmlessRabbit

There's a relevant Emerson passage:
(from my favorite essay)
http://emerson.thefreelibrary.com/Es...rst-Series/2-1

fnaqzna

Man... that's awesome. Thanx Harmless.


Edit... FWIW, on this and a few other boards I frequent, the political discussions almost the same. Each of the communities are polarized.

The best arguments are the ones that surprise me. Like many, I'll categorize everyone that posts and have a picture in my mind of the type of person they are. I really enjoying reading an argument, or a position that I didn't expect. Painting people black or white is extremely dull. Finding the shades of gray is the best reason to argue.

feelgood

You'd be surprised at how many times Canadian government changes their position. For example, in early 90's we used to have a party called The Reform Party of Canada which is pretty much pro-western theme. Now, it has evolved into Canadian Alliance and now, it's merged with the conservatives.

The funny thing about it was that the Reform party used to hate the Conservatives.

But yeah, you're right most parties don't change jack. The liberals have been same for the last century...

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Yakk

I can't think of a political position I haven't moved at least a bit in the last 5 years.

Yes, there are foaming-at-the-mouth fanatics out there. But, they aren't in the majority.

Did I change my political positions during debates? Nope, not all that often. But, the debates had impact on my beliefs.

People also need to be aware of what other beliefs are out there. At one point, I couldn't cocieve of someone rationally having political beliefs that where opposed to my own: how could I rationally hold my beliefs and someone else rationally hold the opposite beliefs? The answer is, easy, it happens all the time.

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Bobaphat

I just think its fun personally. Also, if there is anyone listening who is undecided, it gives them the opportunity to have some insight into either arguement before forming an opinion

__________________
--size matters not-- yoda

dy156

I have a friend who used to be to the right of me, and now sends me "Bushisms of the day" emails. People can change their opinions and viewpoints, but they are more likely to do so with changes in their personal life than through discussion. Still, I think sounding off on here is beneficial, because occasionally someone will say something that leads me to look at an issue in a different light. If this happens to me, I bet it happens to others too. I also think this is a good way to get educated about the various viewpoints out there more efficiently than listening to news talk radio or TV.

Tophat665

I like to see if I can come up with good turns of phrase (not often).

I actually had my opinion of the Israeli conflict shifted somewhat over the past couple years, mostly through political arguments, but somewhat through just growing up a little bit.

Put a Democrat in the Whitehouse, and I will have more conservative views on somethings, put Democrats in Congress enough to control both houses, and I will actually go right of center to try and keep things where they belong.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Sparhawk

That sounds like a pretty honest reaction - I think a lot of Americans have a natural inclination towards the center and "balance" - when it gets out of whack too far there is a drive to restore it.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Mephisto2

I have changed my mind several times in the past.

I still consider myself left of centre and a "liberal", but my opinion on certain topics change as I grow older, learn more, experience more etc.

For example, I originally supported the invasion of Iraq (unlike the vast majority of my friends and, to be honest, the world outside the US) because I believed what Blair told the British public. I never trusted Bush and it turns out I was right. Now, I think the war was a mistake, a cynical extension of Bush's personal politics onto the world stage and something that has caused more harm than good; and removing Hussein (WMD's or not) was inarguably a good thing.

That's just one example.

If your opinion can't be changed, especially in the face of facts or personal experience, then you're a silly person.

Mr Mephisto

kutulu

There are always people on the fence trying to figure out where they stand on a particular issue. A good arguement might sway them.

irseg

I enjoy it because 98% of the time hearing the other side of the story reaffirms how wrong they are and how right I am. The other 2% of the time prompts me to think about and reconsider my views.

A friend of a friend is staying at my house for a few days. He's currently writing a book on the merits of socialism. My views, on the other hand, pretty much fall in line with those of Ayn Rand. This is gonna be interesting.

Aladdin Sane

My experience says the fence-sitters stay there. So does everyone else. It's all about vanity. Period.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Lebell

Oye Vey!

That's worse than me and my friend and I thought we were diametrically opposed on some issues.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

tecoyah

I think it is the Jerry Springer effect. Usually I just watch the interactions and laugh. But there are things to be learned, even from a polar opposite. I dislike the current administration, and many of its policies, but have gained much insight into why others think it is a good thing. This has helped me to understand the politics of the politics far better, and opened my eyes to some of my own misunderstandings and misinterpretations.
The problems occur when someone gets pissed and starts flaming, makes for a downward spiral and kills a thread pretty quick.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Strange Famous

Well I have, when I was 17 I used to be very conservative, I was against immigration, I supported the death penalty, I thought homosexuality was morally wrong, I believed totally in the market with a minimum safety net provided by the state - I used to be really into Talcott Parson's view of society.

Then I read some Marx, and in the arguments we used to have in sociology class, it was just like I started to see everything from a totally different perspective - and I went from being one of the furthest right in our class to be the furthest left - all through university I studied Marxism as much as I could, and we got really into depth into it in my Masters degree - I dont look at Das Kapital as a bible as some people do, but I do see it as a scientific statement of why things are the way they are, and a guide to the way things logically will have to move in the future.

The main reason I post here is honestly because I want people to see things how I do, because not in an arrogant sense, but I really think I am right, or that Marx was right, I want to try and make other people see the flaws and hypocrisies of capitalism and the capitalist state. Also, I do like to test my own arguments, and see how people come back at me.

I mean, the place I used to post politics stuff at, we would have debates on whether or not George Bush would receive the death penalty when found guilty of war crimes, I have never posted anywhere where there are so many right wing people here - and it is interesting to see how other people understand the world too.

I think most people who would come to a board like this are going to be quite passionate about their political world view, and it will be quite deeply entrenched in them, so it is hard for people to say "ok, youre right I'm wrong" because they really dont see it. I mean, Im not saying the war in Iraq is wrong because I want to be trendy or I think its what a left wing person should say, I really feel it in my heart and it makes me angry that it is happening, I want everyone else to be as angry as I am, to reject the leaders who took us there as much as I do... but at the same time, I think if any person is not at least prepared in principle to reverse or modify their view on something, they are missing out a part of the point of the debate - because if no one is prepared to modify their view, it just becomes two sides shouting slogans and soundbites.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

llama8

The point is that in a democracy you have the RIGHT to voice your opinion. A big point, many should listen to, is that you also have a RESPONSIBILITY to allow others to voice their rights.

On the subject of debates not changing views. I always classed myself as a fan of "new labour" and what it stands for. However it took a speech from a man known as Alan Simpson MP (If your interested he's a 'traditional' labour MP with Nottingham South as his constituency). He spoke to me alot of home truths and it caused me to actually look at the world I live in and changed alot of my views.

So where am I now? I'd place myself as a traditional Socialist. I believe we all have a duty to help each other. No one should have a right to exploit others for their own capital gain. The worlds wealth should be in the hands of the many as opposed to the few and rich people do not automatically imply the need for people to live in poverty.

Anyway just a few points from my head.

nanofever

I now agree with you that people don't change their minds by reading politics threads. Before reading your post, I did infact believe that people changed their minds in politics threads. You changed my mind with a post about how politics threads can't change people's minds.

__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

ARTelevision

I'm of the opinion important issues should occasionally be discussed.
However for the most part, I have little interest in debate.

__________________
create evolution

mml

That is awefully sad Art, as you generally bring a unique spin on topics. I am one who feels that debate an essential part of learning. I have many ideas, beliefs and biases. When I am forced to defend them, I am must evaluate them carefully and hopefully learn whether or not they truly are valid.

Discussion is good, but debate forces you to defend your beliefs. That being said, much of what we see on Politics is glib, hasty and partisan and has little to do with real debate. But, I cannot say I have not learned from these discussions and the rare true debates.

irateplatypus

wow... TFP has the most right-wingers of any board you've posted on? dang

i have admitted i've been wrong on a couple points here on TFP. but, those have been on points that are more specific and factual than overarching political ethos or philosophy.

i enjoy reading other's opinions... but i'll admit that it is rare for me to change my opinion in a major way. even though i dont' often change my political stance, TFP has helped me better understand how others have come to theirs.

the main reason i post and rebut is the satisfaction of debate. after taking several programming and logic classes, i have begun to see arguments arranged in the same fashion. without regard to political stance, some poster's remarks would compile... others would most certainly not.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

ARTelevision

What is sad is that debate is so often conducted for self-serving reasons. Stating one's position and considering the positions stated by others avoids the pitfalls of disputation that engulf us.

Of course, the requirement of actually listening to the positions stated by others, considering them, and thinking about their implications are personal responsibilities that obviate the necessity for incessant and continual public histrionics.

__________________
create evolution

tecoyah

I only post here to piss off platypus.

Actually, although I tend to have a different take on politics, posting debate with those of different leaning political positions, makes for quite a bit of enlightenment. Not just into politics either.
This forum is a great place to study the psyche of a diverse population, and develop theories as to the "why" of opinion.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

BlueGoose

I actually conceded a point yesterday; it's rare, but I did.
Some one layed into me real hard about abortion last year, showed me pictures and facts and basically it completely changed my opinion on the legality of the issue and before that I had been pretty much pro-abortion without a second though.
I've seen people have their opinions flat out 180'd over debates and conversations on politics. Perhaps it's not as often as we all want for both sides, but that's how things are.

ganon

I like to learn. Everyone here has seen my stupid posts when I got all pissy, but really I come here to learn. Some of the ideas expressed are so foreign to my thinking, that I will never even know of them if I don't come here and dig them up.

__________________
"My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

madsenj37

Besides the fact that I have a politics degree and would like to believe it has relevance...
No one ever conceds on an issue but that does not mean they do not change their mind over time, it just means they do not change their mind in one defining moment. I used to think killing was only acceptable in self-defense before I came to college. After four years, I can no longer say the same. My definition of defense has changed and the self has been extended to society. This is just one example. Me now and me four years ago would be in disagreeance (is that a word?). It takes time for an opinion to form or change. Also, discussing the other side of our opinions means that we do not make later decisions uninformed or one sidedly (in theory at least). John Stuart Mill has a better explanation of this.

__________________
"Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

jcookc6

I believe it is good to discuss politics, because there are people who are truly undecided and like to hear both sides of the story. Maybe no one changes thier opinion, but it good to hear the other sides point of view.

sprocket

Someone on this board referred to debating politics as mental masturbation.

Like regular masturbation, it doesnt actually accomplish a whole lot, but it can be fun at times.

Fap on!

__________________
Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

Wax_off

I seems to be really important to engage those who oppose you. In this increasingly polarized political environment the sides seem to be talking to each other less and less. Discussion/argumentation, even if it doesn't change anyone's minds still allows you to see how other people think (if they're thinking that is, but that's another thread.)

Getting to know how your opponents think is really important. That's why I watch Fox news every once in a while, even though they're all total neo-con tools (yes, even the "liberal" ones.)

theusername

95% of the time my opiinion doesnt change. One thread never changes my opinion but over time I will occasionally switch on an issue. Keep in mind im only 18 so im still deciding for myself whats right and wrong in the political world.

sportsrule101

It helps time go by faster at work

__________________
winning isn't everything but
losing isn't anything