Strange Famous

It is my honest, and total and belief, that the political state of America has been for a number of years hijacked by a Right Wing agenda that it's people do not support. Fueled by capital, a bipartisan system of two right wing parties, a media that is constantly far to the right of the American people, through the lack of choice, through outright lies, through bribery and threat and indoctrination, the forces of money and state power have piece by piece stolen America from its people and its ideals.

I dont mean that the American people are fundamentally Democrat rather than Republican, there is no majot ideological difference between the two parties, which are both conservative and love capital and hate the working class - the American elections are merely elections of personalities, not principles, not policies, not ideology.

It is my belief that:

The majority of American people do not want to outlaw gay marriages, they say that people should be free to marry who the wish and the state doesnt have the right to stop them

The majority of American people support a free choice for women with regards to abortion, they acknowledge that the state does not have the right to tell women what to do with their own bodies, and that all women should be supported in taking this most difficult choice.

The majority of American people believe that wealthy corporations and individuals should pay more tax than people struggling to get by.

The majority of American people, while they support their troops, believe in peace, they do not want to fight in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kora, Vietnam, or anywhere else. The American people understand that the only just war is a war of self defence, and that conquest is never just.

The American people believe in and support universal health care for all, funded by the state, from the cradle to the grave.

The American people want more funding on their school system which is struggling terribly, rather than more cruise missiles.

The American people believe in welfare, in unemployment insurance, in helping the homeless get back on their feet, in religious and cultural freedom for all people of all colour and creeds.

These are the ideals which made America the greatest and most powerful nation in the world, these are the ideals which drew millions of immigrants to America, to start a fresh,to live from Year Zero.

These are the ideals of the people, and no presidential candidate from either main party has ever supported these ideals, not in the lifetime of any poster on this board. The forces of capital have captured America, but it can be reclaimed, it must be reclaimed for America to remain what it set out to be.

A land of opportunity and freedom, not patriot acts and the jack boot. A land of enterprise and creativity, not the sweat shop and the fat cat corporation, a land of beauty not a land of pollution, a land of the free rather than the land of the fearful.

The American people reject utterly the crooked Washington stuffed shirts that are shoved before them every 4 years, that is why so many people dont bother to vote, and those who do often do so on basic prejudices, media manipulation, or family tradiotion. They reject the two corporate parties, the reject the trail of dirty money that feeds these beasts, they reject the billionaires, the gangsters, who have taken over their country. It is time for all American people who love peace, justice, freedom, enterprise, freedom from exploitation, freedom from the police state, the nanny state, the jack boot, the spook in the dark suit from the Anti-American Activities board... it is time to not just reject these ideals which sicken the stomach of the working class, but to constructively begin to rebuild a new America, an America that excludes the likes of Enron, Haliburton, Bush, Cheney, Clinton and Kerry and the rest of the swine who tussle to dip their snouts in the trough.

Maybe it will not happen tomorrow, but soon, a fight is coming, between the working people of America and the forces of the state and capital, and already the tools of domination and terror melt from the hands of the state, already the people go stronger and more confident... within ten years , twenty certainly, the capitalist state of America shall fall and replaced by the people's republic of America. This is not hyperbole, this is not me trying to goad people or start a debate, this is WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN... the American people can no longer tolerate a leadership, capital and the state, whose actions are so alien to the American way of life, to human deceny, to the interests of all working class people.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

fuzyfuzer

i'll accept your position but i can't agree with it

i always sit next to that line the government that governs least governs best

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"Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

Kadath

I think I've said this very thing before, but here goes again:

SF, I like you. You're the strong left arm. But you really don't have a grip on American thought. You aren't here.

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it's quiet in here

Lebell

Question:

Why are you, a British citizen, so concerned with telling Americans they need to "reclaim" their country?

I mean, to the casual observer, it would seem like you're an American when you are not.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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seretogis

Are you suggesting that you are a time traveler and have seen the future state of the US, Strange Famous? If so, I think that explains your position on a wide variety of issues.

I don't see how the people of the US would fight a battle against big government, and then replace it with an equally (if not moreso) corrupt socialist government.

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perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Bookman

So what is American thought as it agrees or disagrees with SF's post?

Stare At The Sun

I couldn't have said it better myself. And the last time i checked, america is a lot better off than the UK. Make all the predictions you want. Time will tell.

EDIT:

I will feed the troll.

The majority of American people do not want to outlaw gay marriages, they say that people should be free to marry who the wish and the state doesnt have the right to stop them

Not so much, most people are pretty closed minded it seems. I highly doubt you could find more than 10% of people that support it in the bible belt(the midwest) and most places, the elected officials are going against it. Most people don't really support it. On tfp, it might be different though, as we are a lot more open minded. as people on forums like this are.


The majority of American people support a free choice for women with regards to abortion, they acknowledge that the state does not have the right to tell women what to do with their own bodies, and that all women should be supported in taking this most difficult choice.

I'd say its about 50/50.


The majority of American people believe that wealthy corporations and individuals should pay more tax than people struggling to get by.

I would agree to a point. People don't deserve to be taxed an insane amount. The gov needs to reduce its crazy spending, and cut taxes.


The majority of American people, while they support their troops, believe in peace, they do not want to fight in Afghanistan, Iraq, Kora, Vietnam, or anywhere else. The American people understand that the only just war is a war of self defence, and that conquest is never just.

Again, most are split 50/50. Giver or take.

The American people believe in and support universal health care for all, funded by the state, from the cradle to the grave.

Bullshit. Plain and simple. Most people believe in helping others out, but universal, not so much. Mostly because this kinda shit costs way to much money, and that means taxes. Americans HATE taxes.

The American people want more funding on their school system which is struggling terribly, rather than more cruise missiles.

Yes, in theory. Again, locally here, school leveys fail all the time, and yet, ohio usually votes republican and hence in favor of military spending..

The American people believe in welfare, in unemployment insurance, in helping the homeless get back on their feet, in religious and cultural freedom for all people of all colour and creeds.

Welfare? Most people hate it and view them as no good bums. Welfare should only be used if the people are working, or looking. Welfare was never meant to last this long, and most people hate it. It's money out of my pocket to support some crack whore and her 12 kids. It's bullshit. Other freedoms...yes.

Strange Famous

Because the interests of working people all over the world are united. America is where capitalism is at its most developed, and thusly the closest to self destruction

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Lebell

So you are claiming that you understand the interests of Americans better than the Americans posting here?

Isn't that more than slightly elitist and condescending?

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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meepa

Man... I don't neccesarily agree or disagree with a lot of your views. I am a pretty leftist kind of guy... But I'm telling you, as an American, you really do not have a grasp on what the typical American citizen is like. I have a feeling all you do is talk to either idealistic students or fellow socialists. There are TONS, and I mean serious elephant-sized shitloads, of people who are absolutely nothing like you in the U.S. If you think there is a surging amount of worker-animosity that is going to rise up against the capitalists and try for some revolution, you have got your head in the clouds.

I would say the vast majority of Americans are very centrist... Whether they lean a little to the left or right, it doesn't matter. They don't want change... they especially don't want the kind of massive change you always say they do. There are loud people on the fringes, both left and right, that would try to convince everyone that they are more numerous than they seem. And I would guess, if anything, more people lean towards the traditional, Christian right than anything. And this is coming from a leftist in Washington state... one of the most liberal and -the- most secular state in the Union.

Tomservo

I'd say it's closer to the truth than we'd like to think. Many millions of Americans have never formed a proper opinion on an issue of political or moral interest outside of what's been handed down by parents, teachers, priests, so on. A foreigner likely is a better source for a breakdown of our leanings, although I truly don't believe most of the claims made here. Being a lefty myself (And a moderate one at that), I consistently find myself at odds with a lot of folks in regards to my beliefs. *And I live in California*.

Then again, I can't get anyone to agree that the death penalty isn't the problem, it's the courts that are flawed!

Stare At The Sun

Give this man a prize.

sprocket

Let me throw this out there.. The news media in America is most definately NOT right wing biased. This has been the case for years. News outlets have for a long time been VERY VERY left wing. Fox News comes the closest to being partial to the right wing... and thats about it. The only media outlet that has a conservitive/republican twist is talk radio.

Quote:

I dont mean that the American people are fundamentally Democrat rather than Republican, there is no majot ideological difference between the two parties, which are both conservative and love capital and hate the working class - the American elections are merely elections of personalities, not principles, not policies, not ideology. The majority of American people do not want to outlaw gay marriages, they say that people should be free to marry who the wish and the state doesnt have the right to stop them

Well thats an interesting one. Its basically just the religious right getting in the way. The poloticians dont want to lose that demographic by supporting gay marriage. Think about it.. 10% of the population is gay, the non religious portion of the straight population is probably just apathetic, and the religious right (bigger percentage of the pop than homosexuals) is adamantly opposed to such a thing. They're going with the voters. Keep it banned and they only piss of 10% of the people.

Quote:

The majority of American people support a free choice for women with regards to abortion, they acknowledge that the state does not have the right to tell women what to do with their own bodies, and that all women should be supported in taking this most difficult choice.

Any woman today has the right to make that choice. Abortion is legal. I dont see it going anywhere soon.

Quote:

The majority of American people believe that wealthy corporations and individuals should pay more tax than people struggling to get by.

I personally dont believe this. I loved Forbes flat tax idea. In any case, this is already true today. Corperations and wealthy individuals pay a considerable amount of the taxes. I forget the statistic, but something like the richest 20% of the populations pays over 50% or 60% (mabye higher) of the taxes in this country.

Quote:

The American people believe in and support universal health care for all, funded by the state, from the cradle to the grave.

I would stand against any such legislation. If our government is filled with such crooked criminals as you claim, why would you surrender control of our medical system to these people. I think the majority of Americans feel the same way. Not many are all that opposed to the idea of nationalized healthcare. They just realize that our government has a piss poor chance at doing it right.

Quote:

The American people want more funding on their school system which is struggling terribly, rather than more cruise missiles.

Privatize more education, and school vouchers. Give the people a choice. Yes, look at our education system, the underpaid teachers, classrooms without enough books, etc. Can you not see the disaster that would be nationalized healthcare if it were ever to come about in the US?

Quote:

These are the ideals of the people, and no presidential candidate from either main party has ever supported these ideals, not in the lifetime of any poster on this board. The forces of capital have captured America, but it can be reclaimed, it must be reclaimed for America to remain what it set out to be. A land of opportunity and freedom, not patriot acts and the jack boot. A land of enterprise and creativity, not the sweat shop and the fat cat corporation, a land of beauty not a land of pollution, a land of the free rather than the land of the fearful. The American people reject utterly the crooked Washington stuffed shirts that are shoved before them every 4 years, that is why so many people dont bother to vote, and those who do often do so on basic prejudices, media manipulation, or family tradiotion. They reject the two corporate parties, the reject the trail of dirty money that feeds these beasts, they reject the billionaires, the gangsters, who have taken over their country. It is time for all American people who love peace, justice, freedom, enterprise, freedom from exploitation, freedom from the police state, the nanny state, the jack boot, the spook in the dark suit from the Anti-American Activities board... it is time to not just reject these ideals which sicken the stomach of the working class, but to constructively begin to rebuild a new America, an America that excludes the likes of Enron, Haliburton, Bush, Cheney, Clinton and Kerry and the rest of the swine who tussle to dip their snouts in the trough.

Ill agree with most of this. Most people don't trust washington. I will say rejecting the billionares is a bad idea. Trickle down economics work. The billionares provide the people with jobs. I reject criminals who would prey upon others. Rich people are no exception. I do reject the notion that somehow the common man or working class man who turns to crime is somehow more noble than the white collar wealthy criminal. As if he only turned to crime because of the "sorry lot" that was handed to him in life. Criminals are criminals no matter what their income, and they should all be punished according to their cime. Thats kind of off topic, but I just feel there is an anti-wealth character to your post, as if all the wealthy are somehow oppressors of lower income people.

Quote:

Maybe it will not happen tomorrow, but soon, a fight is coming, between the working people of America and the forces of the state and capital, and already the tools of domination and terror melt from the hands of the state, already the people go stronger and more confident... within ten years , twenty certainly, the capitalist state of America shall fall and replaced by the people's republic of America. This is not hyperbole, this is not me trying to goad people or start a debate, this is WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN... the American people can no longer tolerate a leadership, capital and the state, whose actions are so alien to the American way of life, to human deceny, to the interests of all working class people.

Well, I think your getting a bit overdramatic. I am deffinatley in the catagory of working class. Its not the government or corperations that are to blame for my social status. In fact I would consider my status to be very transient. You seem to assume that the mindset of most people in this country is that of oppression. Even with the problems in this country and the gvmnt corruption etc, there is hardly a feeling of oppression in America (in most places). Most people have a great amount of freedom to go about there lives and pursue what they wish to pursue.

I have to run to school now or I would rant on a bit more

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Tophat665

So far, so good, but, when a Brit says it's time to reclaim America, we start really liking our second ammendment.

I disagree. There is a fundamental difference between the republican and demorcratic parties. I'll elucidate when I have a nice, pithy way to encapsulate a distinction that would be difficult to perceive from the far left in Europe.

Not exactly. The majority of Americans are in favor of civil rights for gays, but it gets to be closer to even when you talk about marriage. We are the descendants of people who left/were thrown out of Europe largely for extreme religious beliefs. Marriage is the closest approach of religion and governance in this country, and it hasn't ocurred to a distressingly large number of people that a religious ceremony may be have the same name as a govrenment document and be entirely separate. One people figure that out, it's a question of constitutionality.

Pretty close to 50/50 there

The majority of people work for wealthy people and corporations and are too easily convinced that raising those taxes puts their livelihoods in jeopardy.

Flattery will get you nowhere. You have this exactly backwards.

The American People believe that health care is their right, but are unwilling to pay for it.

While it is true that I think you're right that a majority of Americans are in favor of higher school budgets, the system as it stands make that mean higher local taxes, which Americans without school aged childeren and those who can afford a private education for their childeren are nearly universally against. Cruise missiles don't enter into it - that's just a strawman.

Academically, maybe. Practically, Americans are easily dissuaded from footing the bill for this by anecdotes of people who cheat the system.

Again, academically. I think if you tack "except Muslims and freaky cult people" onto that, you'd get a solid majority.

Enough... SF, I am glad we have you around - your outlook is often refresing and always interesting - but please don't presume to speak for my country.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

archer2371

Yeah, while I appreciate the fact that you are someone I can test some really good debating skills against, and your viewpoints are always fun to read, I'm never bored, you just don't grasp how most Americans think. That just simply has to do with the fact that you don't live here. Americans are pretty centrist for the most part and realize that too much sway to the right or to the left is a bad thing. Just look at the amount of Liberals and Conservatives have been elected into the office of President, it's split almost 50/50 (only accounting for the fact the the Conservatives have a slight edge because we're on an odd numbered POTUS right now). To incite that the workers will rise up against the "ruling class of america" is a pipe dream. It's simply not true, and you don't speak for, as you say, most Americans.

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theusername

As already said, the majority of americans are moderate centrists. There are more Democrats than Republicans and more Independents vote Republican than Democrat.

The media, besides fox news, is entirely biased towards the left.

Americans HATE HATE HATE taxes and big government. We dont like gay marriage. In California, one of the most liberal states, gay marriage was voted down by the people in a proposition.

You make good points but you simply aren't in touch with the average american, only the New England liberal elite.

When a liberal faces a conservative its 50-50. When a moderate faces a conservative or vice versa its 60-40. That is how our country works.

Tophat665

Rather that reiterate my post, let me merely point out that I was raised by New England liberals.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Tomservo

It's amusing how attracted to nonsense people can be. For some reason, folks of all political interests believe the line that the MEDIA is controlled by liberals, leftists, socialists. I need not remind anyone of Rush Limbaugh's huge contract and prescence in all media (Until fired for his ridiculous comments by ESPN), nor Bill O'Reilly, nor Sean Hannity, even forgetting Ann Coulter. These folks pepper the radio dial, the tv screen, and the bestseller lists. Is this to be denied? Of course not. Toss in convert Dennis Miller if you like, he's rattling the saber as loud as anyone for righties on TV. Fox News isn't arguably right wing, either, the content consists of about 75% Republican talking points, which is no secret to ANYONE. This isn't to deny that the O'Reillys of the world have no genuine interest in the country or individual thoguhts, but they ARE media. RADIO is media. PRINT is media. The Wall Street Journal is media. Hell, the #1 movie in the country is a right-wingers' dream, a hellfire and damnation spectacle of *truly* Biblical proportions directed by a true right-winger! What area of media remains? Music? I doubt liberals or conservatives en masse would claim Britney and 50 Cent.

Please, someone, tell me how radio, print, television, and movies avoid the "media" title.

Additionally, government has grown larger and larger since the Republicans have been in power- House, Senate, Presidency... over 2 Trillion dollars annually! So, if we hate big government and taxes so much, why the hell do we keep electing people who make it bigger? I understand the "talking point" says Democrats tax and spend, but reality says otherwise. Even California's new Governor, a Republican, of coure... pushed for (and got) an additional $15B to help balance the budget.

The one thing everyone agrees on- Americans are generally more moderate. This is why Bill Clinton succeeded- he was a moderate Democrat, not a liberal.

filtherton

Don't any of you remeber when i made SF an honorary american? Jesus, typical american memory, though.

SF, i think you've got it all wrong about americans. From where i stand i can see that there are a lot of very intelligent, compassionate and hard working americans.
There are also a whole lot of greedy, shortsighted, xenophobic, racist, discriminatory, belligerent, jingoistic, self-righteous/insecure(great combo!), selfish, spiteful, hateful, sheeplike, and materialistic people here too.

I think that sometimes you give us too much credit. America has always worshipped the almighty dollar bill. Don't you think it would be more accurate if we wrote "In the dollar we trust" on our churches instead of "In god we trust" on our dollars? If the majority of americans want to do something, you can bet that somebody's making money off of it. That is what america is all about.


FYI: the media isn't left or right. The media is centrist. Appealing to the majority means more money for advertisers. Anyone who complains about how the majority of media is biased against them is just looking for something to pewl about.

Lebell

I make the interesting observation that you had three positive adjectives to ascribe to your countrymen and fourteen negative ones.

Is your slip showing?

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Kadath

I make the observation that you modestly called your own observation "interesting." I will admit that several of filtherton's adjectives are more or less redundant, or at least similar (xenophobic and racist and discriminatory, selfish and materialistic, spiteful and hateful) and could have been combined into one. What other positive adjectives would you ascribe to us?

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Superbelt

We're an ambitious and resourceful people, in general.
And I believe those two attributes are why we are where we are on the world stage now.

[edit]reread that, seemed like it could be interpreted another way.
The way I wrote it: meaning world superpower/leader[/edit]

filtherton

Does the idea that you might be seeing my slip turn you on, baby?

Actually, since there are already plenty of cheerleaders for america here, i was just trying to point out that americans don't shit sunshine, that there are many undesirable things about americans and american attitudes. I didn't think i needed to point out all of the great things about americans because i'm pretty sure that many americans are so full of their own americanness that to praise them would be the equivalent of preaching to the choir.
I did have to mention a few positive things to pre-empt the predictable "why do you hate america?" line. Although i guess it still wasn't enough.

Redundant shmedundant, the words are still accurate. I could've just said "dumb" and had the same effect as far as some people are probably concerned.

Kadath

Just for the record, I love the word "shmedundant."

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Lebell

To paraphrase a quote I hardly remember, "The reason I talk to myself is that I'm the most interesting person in the room"

Anyway, I would have added at least generous and kind, while saying fewer bad to underscore my belief that, while there are bad things about Americans, the good things generally outweigh them, not the other way around.



I don't know...are you posted in "Portraits" or "Exhibition"?

And yes, "America hater" did cross my mind, but I was trying to be somewhat diplomatic and still make the point.

I guess I don't understand why you felt it important not only to emphasize, but to HAMMER on the fact that while there is some good, there REALLY is a lot of BAD about Americans.

Anyway, I hope it doesn't seem that I'm trying to start a fight over it, it just struck me as I was reading it.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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shakran

In my experience as someone who actually lives in the USA, Americans don't take to people from other countries telling us how to run our lives. Hell, our country exists because we didn't want England telling us what to do. The almost universal response to advice from other nations is "piss off," whether that advice is good or not.

In the first place, you're wrong about the media. As a whole, the respectable media is not biased either way. People like to look at things like Rush Limbaugh, call him the news media (he's not), and then say the media slants to the right. Or they look at Al Franken, call HIM the news media (he's not) and then say it slants to the left.

The truth is that good reporters give you the facts and leave it to you to interpret them.

I think it would be very difficult for me, were I from another country, to look at the relatively few American media outlets available across the pond and make a judgement on the American media as a whole. To presume to do so weakens your case significantly.

filtherton

Don't get me wrong. I am very glad that i'm american. Despite all the bullshit it's still better than most. I just think sometimes we americans go overboard patting ourselves on the back. Thought maybe the other extreme might provide some contrast.

sailor

Wow. Interesting thread, one of the best Ive read in a while...

I dont want to rant, most of what I would say has already been said. To paraphrase:

1) Yes, there is a lot of bad about Americans. There is also a lot of good.

2) Not everyone is as socialist as you SF.

3) Many (if not most) of SF's points are wrong, or at least less-than-accurate.

4) SF isnt an American, and as such, his views are affected mainly by what he sees and reads in the media. He doesnt live here, and thus doesnt experience or understand it. This means two things: don't tear him a new asshole over it, but at the same time, he probably shouldnt be making claims that he understands the American way of life, and thus shouldnt be damning it so vehemently.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

smooth

sailor, SF is a communist.

Lebell, if filtherton had included generous and kind as descriptors, hard lefties [commies like me, at least] would have snorted him off the board.

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Lebell

In this case, I believe your jibes and jocular jests are not far from the mark.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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cj22009

SF your way off base here you idea's are not what America was founded on. People think america was founded on democracy that is wrong. Our country was founded on capitalism law rule not majority rule. I for one don't believe that the goverment should take money from one person and give it to somebody else just because one has more than the other. There is a big problem in the country with that they call people that a rich fortunate. Every wealthy person I know was not fortunate they work hard for what they have and ussually do good things in return to help the economy like give people jobs and spend that hard earned money on cars and houses and even there company. I think they should be given tax breaks for doing things like this. Thats just what I think im not rich either btw

jwoody

I think us brits should just face up to the the fact that we probably aren't going to reclaim the americkas any time soon.

It'll be another 12 years before I'm eligible to nominate myself as presidente.

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sailor

Seemed more socialist from what I read, but hey, Ill take your word for it

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

Strange Famous

Marx used the words socialist and communist interchangably, although he did have a concept of "higher" socialism and the socialism that would be necessary in the world immeditaly after capitalism was crushed... it was Lenin who made the dinstinction between socialism and communism - and insofar as meaning I am a Leninist, I am not really - Lenin betrayed the spirit of revolution, and failed to understand that communism cannot exist without total and open democracy - he destroyed the revolution in trying to save it from counter revolutionies in my opinion.

As for me not being able to say this because I am not America - I disagree for two reasons -

1, the ideals of working class people are united across all capitalist borders, capitalist is most vulnerable in America because America is the most developed capitalsim

2, specifically, American's are people with no real nationality, certainly you can be a patriotic American, but there is no real blood and earth nationalism, or at least if there is it can only exist in the Indians - nearly all Americans families have settled there recently enough for them to be tied to the places they came from, America was not founded on democracy, or freedom, but on greed and rebellion and fanaticism... but it remains a blank canvas - you can talk about American's rejecting and repelling England, the truth is most Americans ARE English, just a few stages removed.

People may attach labels to themselves, I am a capitalist... but how many really believe in capitalism as a moral good? And how many just see it as the way the world is or the only way it can be because that is drummed into them all the time by the media, the school system, the state?

Many Americans say they hate communism, but they mean they hate Stalinism... any right mind person hates Stalinism, all communists hate Stalinism, and recognise Soviet Russia as a undemocratic, unsocialist, repressive and often brutal capitalist state.

Whatever label people have, I believe the ideals I talked about are the ideals of most common Americans, they are ideals that not any single party represents, they are ideals the press and schools and state do not represent, the whole organised body of American society stands radically to the Right of the American people and this balance must and will be addressed very soon... withing 20 years certainly. America lead the social capitalist revolution which conquered industrial capitalism, and so it has the position now to lead the communist revolution.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Bill O'Rights

OK...I don't have time to argue all of your points, so I'll just pick this one, for the time being. Sorry SF, I am an American, and America most certainly is my nationality. The first "O'Rights" stepped off of the boat from Manheim Germany in 1722. I have no ties to Deutschland. I speak just enough German to get my face slapped by some frueliens in Frankfurt. So, I am an American, by blood, by heritage and by destiny. And, by the way, I'm also pretty damn proud of it.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

james t kirk

Dude, have you ever been to Europe?

I was in Britain a few years back, from which my father's family emmigrated in the late 1700's to Canada.

It was a wierd feeling being there.

I went to a wedding in a church outside of Oxford that was almost a thousand years old. A THOUSAND YEARS OLD. The Brits were all very nonchalent about it all, and I was amazed that the place was still standing. (Even though it smelled pretty musty I remember.)

Anyway, a strange feeling came over me while in Britain. Although it's not home, I had the feeling I was where I had a history, a geneological tie to something. I imagined hundreds of generations of my family sprang from this place.

In essence, I had returned home. I had returned to that swamp that a long time ago (in a galaxy far far away) my ancestors crawled out of.

I can't explain it better than that.

And I consider myself a pretty patriotic Canadian to boot, but after all, North America never belonged to the Europeans.

reconmike

Get real, did Europe ever belong to the Europeans?

If we must check lineage, did the Europeans just sprout out of the ground there?

It is called evolution, humans have been migrating before there were boundries.

Who was the first human anywhere? That would make them native, everyone else is an immigrant now wouldn't it?

How long will the people of the United States have to be here before they are considered natives? 2000 years, 5000 thousand?

Now back to the original post:

Strange Famous you could not be farther from reality in anything you have posted about MY country if you were in alpha omega in the solar system.

The majority of people want to ban gay marriage, this is why it will not pass anywhere including Massachusets.

The majority of America believes that you pay your share .

I would love to go point by point through your pointless babble, but thats just what it is babble, but I have neither the time or patience to do so.

And in closing I would like to say that the majority of the people in the United Kingdom would like to bring back a total monarchy
which is ruled by a king, everyone else that is not of noble blood should be peasants and farm for the good of the kingdom.

That is ofcourse if not out conquering lands in the name of the crown.

__________________
Where is Darwin when ya need him?

fuzyfuzer

i persanally think that somthing that you are missing is that the working class in general is not unhappy and a people that are not unhappy are not going to throw the system out the window because it invites chaios and that would mean that they are not going to be happy in essence to risky

you also say that we are all immegrants from some place which is true but a part of the past when i go to europe i am looked at as a dirty American (France ) not as guy that used to be from that country and i can say that about almost any eurpean country because i have leaniage from 16 of them

America has its own people now and we like having the oppertunity to make more money than we could ever imagine (although it is a small one) and we are risk takers socialism seems like the easy and safe way out and that is just not american

__________________
"The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited"

"Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

irateplatypus

that is just the problem. you cite things that are statistical in nature and ignore their factual basis. instead you replace measureable reality with your perception formed on the other side of the ocean.

without being too caustic, let me say with complete honesty that you are completely disconnected with American societal thought. you see us fight between our own left and right, but your viewpoint is really off the scales over here.

i could go on and on... but i won't. suffice it to say, when you use your socialistic lense try to describe the average American (no matter their political affiliation)... you're barking up the wrong tree.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Jizz-Fritter

Do you expect me to read all that shit?