One More Thing about Moore - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Endymon32 · 12-31-2003, 02:30 AM

Class Clown
Author: Lee
The following originally appeared in Front Page Magazine.
Michael Moore: Class Clown
By Lowell Ponte

Quote:

MILLIONAIRE LEFTIST MICHAEL MOORE lives in an America different from yours and mine, and not just because wealth has given him an insular life of privilege on liberal Manhattan’s Upper West Side.

In Moore’s myopia, the America he sees in Chapter 9 of his latest bestselling book Dude, Where’s My Country? is populated by Leftists like himself. In this "Liberal Paradise" 57 percent of his fellow citizens believe that abortion should be legal "in all or most cases," 86 percent say they agree with the "goals" of the Civil Rights movement and 83 percent agree with the "goals" of the environmental movement, and similar majorities support most other "progressive" ideas.

To paint this portrait of Americans, Moore uses mostly Left-of-Center pollsters who used heavily colored, fuzzy questions to produce the pink sepia picture of vague agreement they wanted on these and other liberal issues. Heck, who doesn’t favor the most noble "goals" of equality and a clean environment? The public debate on such things has been mostly over means, not ends.

But during the most recent elections in 2002, the Voter News Service consortium of the nation’s biggest networks and newspapers suppressed and did not report its voter exit polling – until days ago. It’s easy to see why, given the hard Left bias of these media.

Those un-slanted, suppressed VNS exit polls reveal that America has moved sharply to the Right. The evenly-split electorate of 2000 had by 2002 shifted 51-46 Republican. Those calling themselves "conservatives" grew from 30 percent to 34 percent, more than a third of the entire electorate.

"Even more importantly," wrote John Fund of the Wall Street Journal, "the number of self-identified ‘liberals’ shrank in 2002 despite all the frantic efforts of Michael Moore and Al Franken to whip up the troops."

Those willing to call themselves "liberals" in these 2002 exit polls shrank to only 17 percent – roughly one voter in six – while conservatives increased to include more than one voter in three.

Moore’s self-deluded book has spent the past 10 weeks on the liberal New York Times Nonfiction Bestseller List (bumped down to #4 this week by fellow Lefty Al Franken’s competing anti-American screed). But, truth be told, a Politically Correct author can climb this list with only a few thousand book sales in the right (that is, the Left) bookstores. The larger question with this, as with all of Michael Moore’s books and film "documentaries," is whether they should be listed as Nonfiction or as fiction.

Moore faces what Karl Marx called internal contradictions. If the nation were as Leftist as he claims, his book would be nothing more than a simpleton repetition of common beliefs.

But Moore knows that his fellow Americans elected Republicans to run the Senate, House and White House and are likely to do so again in 2004. The aim of his latest propaganda polemic is to rationalize and then reverse this, to achieve "regime change" in the United States.

Americans vote Republican, contrary to their own self-interest, writes Moore, because wealthy capitalist oil men have hypnotized them with an illegitimate war in Iraq, fear of terrorists, and a few crumbs from a tax cut (given mostly to the wealthy) that feeds the American Horatio Alger myth that we all can succeed.

"Horatio Alger Must Die," writes Moore. Americans should stop trying to become rich. Instead they should desert the War on Terror and enlist in the Class War. Our best chance for a halfway pleasant life, he argues, is to tax all wealth away from the rich and redistribute it to ourselves in the form of welfare, government healthcare and other benefits.

"You are never going to be rich" like Horatio Alger, writes Moore. "The chance of that happening is about one in a million." (This means that in our nation of 293 million people, we have only 293 millionaires.…when in fact we have literally millions of citizens with a net worth in excess of a million dollars – and would have millions more if government greed and excessive taxation could be ended…but is it fair to apply logic to an utterly irrational hyper-Leftist ideologue like Moore?)

The problem with this pudgy messenger born 49 years ago into a working class family in Flint, Michigan, is that Michael Moore IS that one in a million who, in the jargon of Leftspeak, "won life’s lottery."

This high school dropout and former editor of the Leftist magazine Mother Jones has become very, very wealthy by playing class clown to frustrated Leftist baby boomers.

In "Dude, Where’s My Country?" he mocks readers by writing about the huge windfall President George W. Bush’s stimulative tax cuts have given him. He has set up a website where readers can help him decide where to spend his tax cut.

(Actually, he has already decided to spend it "to defeat George W. Bush" and the Republican Party. Those visiting his website are merely given a chance to recommend anti-Republican candidates as recipients of Mike’s largesse…if the new Campaign Finance Law allows such expenditures.)

But Michael Moore is very secretive about his own private life and how many dollars he makes. The amount of his income might be embarrassing to this foe of capitalism. Somebody might ask how this self-proclaimed champion of the proletariat justifies keeping, after taxes, millions and millions of dollars for himself instead of giving it all to the poor. Or some fellow socialist might ask why Moore takes this tax cut at all instead of telling the big government he loves so much to keep the money, government being so much better at spending our money than we are.

"Michael Moore would never withstand the scrutiny he lays on other people," says his former manager Douglas Urbanski. "You would think that he’s the ultimate common man. But he’s money-obsessed."

"He was the most difficult human being I’ve ever met," Urbanski, who today manages stars such as Gary Oldman, continues. "There was no one who even came close."

"He’s careless with his facts, hysterical in debate and, most basically, a guy trying to make a star out of himself," says famed film critic Richard Schickel, who shares some of Moore’s political views but sees the filmmaker’s disreputable tactics as helping bolster the other side.

"He’s a self-aggrandiser," Schickel described Moore to the Times of London. "And, perhaps, the very definition of the current literary term, ‘the unreliable narrator’. This guy either can’t or won’t stick to the point, build a logical case for his arguments. It’s all hysteria – but, I think, calculated hysteria."

Like the huckster who runs every shell game, Michael Moore prefers to misdirect his readers’ attention elsewhere. Look at the Bush family, he writes, and its friendship with the bin Laden family and Saudi royal family.

(Moore’s next documentary, "Fahrenheit 911," scheduled to come out next year to influence the election, reportedly will focus on such purported links and use them to imply that the Bush family was somehow responsible for 9-11. It reportedly is being produced by Mel Gibson’s company Icon Productions.)

But why should not two Presidents from a Texas oil family be friends with the oil-rich American allies of the House of Saud? The bin Ladens are a very large family with one black sheep, the 17th child named Osama born not to a wife but to a mistress who has been disowned by other family members both for his terrorism and his attacks against the House of Saud. To be friendly with the Saudi royal family is to be the enemy of Osama bin Laden.

So how would Michael Moore prevent terrorism? "Stop being terrorists," he writes, giving the usual Leftist examples of America doing evil around the world and thereby angering people.

Who does Michael Moore support for President in 2004? "Oprah Winfrey." Or, more precisely, because he fears that President Bush will use future terrorist incidents as pretext for creating a police state in America, he will support anybody who can defeat the incumbent President.

Middle age, as the saying goes, is when a narrow waist and a broad mind change places. As disheveled and bloated in mind as he is in body, Moore faces his 50th birthday this coming April and is showing signs of turning from a free-spirited critic of the Democratic Party who in 2000 supported Ralph Nader into just another dour, narrow-minded Democratic Party apparatchik robot.

(Nader, having taken four years of curses from Democrats who blame his 92,000 votes in Florida for Al Gore’s 2000 presidential loss, announced this week that he will not run again as a Leftist third party candidate in 2004.)

Moore is smart enough to know that Democrats will lose in 2004 unless they can peel off moderate and even some Republican votes. In one chapter in his book, he envisions conversing with his future granddaughter named Ann Coulter Moore.

To win converts, Moore uses all his wit and charm to produce a guide Leftists can use to win over that conservative brother-in-law with whom they debate once each year at Thanksgiving. Moore suggests ways to build bridges across the political spectrum, above all by appealing to conservative "self-centeredness" by showing how liberal social policies will make them richer and happier.

"What you will encounter in the conservative mind is fear," writes Moore to his fellow Lefties. "Fear of crime. Fear of enemies. Fear of change. Fear of people not exactly like them. And, of course, fear of losing any money on anything."

He does not mention fear of Leftists, who are just as eager to impose their morality on everybody else by using the bayonets of government power as are the "evil right-wing preachers" feared by the Left. (Moore, who as an Irish-American boy considered becoming a Catholic priest, makes clear that he despises George W. Bush for his devout Christian values and faith.)

"You know there are many things about conservatives that we like and believe in ourselves – even though we usually wouldn’t be caught dead saying them out loud," writes Moore in the most winning (and for him hard to write) passage of this book.

"Say them out loud" to your conservative brother-in-law, Moore advises his comrades. "Tell him you, too, are afraid of being a victim of crime and want to prevent criminals from getting away with their actions…. Tell him you don’t like freeloaders, either…. Tell him how dependable conservatives are. When you need something fixed, you call your redneck brother-in-law, don’t you?…. Conservatives are organized, on-time, efficient, well-groomed, and consistent. These are all good qualities and attributes…."

Moore also advises Lefties to admit to that brother-in-law that the Left has – gasp – "made mistakes." Among Moore’s own confessions:

"Mumia probably killed that guy…." Not just a "guy," Michael, but a cop helpless on the ground into whom Mumia emptied a gun.

"Drugs are bad." Agreed.

"Men and women are different." Darn, and just when we thought the Left could be eliminated in one generation by urging them all to engage only in same-sex relationships!

"It’s really a bad idea to have sex before you’re eighteen." Michael clearly sees that big 5-0 rising like a full moon over his life, but age brings greater wisdom and judgment to most of us.

"MTV sucks…." Moore continues, giving far more detail than my quick thumbnail extracts here. "Granola is bad for you. It is filled with sugar and fat…. The sun is good for you…. People who commit violent crimes should be locked up…. Your children do not have a right to privacy…. Not all unions are good, and, in fact, many of them are just plain lousy…. SUVs are not inherently evil…. Getting back to nature is a dumb idea…. Bill O’Reilly makes a few good points…. Animals don’t have rights…. Nixon was more liberal than the last five presidents we’ve had…. Too many of us [on the Left] hold a hoity-toity view of religion….This arrogance is a big reason the lower classes will always side with the Republicans."

Is Moore mellowing and becoming more moderate? Or is he merely using this outreach as a cynical tactic to seduce enough conservative and Republican votes to keep a fast-sinking Democratic Party afloat in 2004?

Throughout his career in print and film, beginning with his documentary "Roger & Me" to his error-filled Academy Award-winning documentary "Bowling for Columbine," Moore has been accused of using lies and deception to advance his immediate political and personal agenda. Entire websites such as moorelies.com exist just to track what critics call his history of deceit and dishonesty.

The good news for Michael Moore is that he can now answer his own question: "Dude, Where’s My Country?" Weeks ago he toured five cities and was greeted everywhere with huge standing-room-only crowds of young people who cheered wildly at his every word as if he were a rock star or movie idol.

"We are socialists," a similar idol who shares Moore’s politics told just such a cheering crowd in one of these cities. "We are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property….and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions."

Michael Moore’s country, where these adoring crowds cheered him wildly last month, was Germany.

It doubtless helped that Moore dressed in a brown jacket reminiscent of the brown garb of that other idol who like Moore swayed and hypnotized crowds of America-hating Leftist young people.

"I thought it was almost like a kind of cult," said truck driver Max Klemmt after watching Moore spew his anti-American venom in Berlin. "He says somebody is crap and everyone cheers."

"Please, stop this God Bless America stuff," Moore told the overheated "Old Europe" Berlin crowd. "There should be a rule that you’re not allowed to bomb another country unless you can find it on the map." By comparison with what a reviewer for the Leftist London Guardian scornfully called Moore’s "cliché-ridden….paint-by-numbers polemics," his friends the Dixie Chicks almost seem pro-American.

The other idol and cult leader whose socialist politics closely parallel Moore’s was the head of the Nazionalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei, the National Socialist German Worker’s Party usually referred to in its abbreviated form, Nazi. The Moore-like attack on capitalism was made by Adolf Hitler in a speech on May 1, 1927. To read other such Hitler quotes and learn more about Hitler’s Leftist socialist politics, click here.

Germany today has a population of about 84 million, only 28 percent that of the United States. Michael Moore’s previous best-seller, Stupid White Men, came out with a total of only a million copies in the United States, but in Germany with scarcely a quarter of our population the same book sold 1.2 million copies. His new book, published with a German title that translates "Full Cover, Mr. Bush," reported the November 17 Wall Street Journal, had a huge initial print run in Germany of 200,000 copies, with more to come.

(In Germany, as the September 29th Wall Street Journal reported, every kind of crackpot anti-American conspiracy book – like the Andreas von Bulow tome alleging, Howard-Deanlike, that President Bush was somehow involved in or had foreknowledge of 9-11 – nowadays sells like hotcakes.)

So, Michael, you need never again ask "Dude, Where’s My Country?"

You found it, amid the sweaty torchlight parades, beer halls, swastikas, brown shirt socialists, goose-steppers and hypnotized screaming crowds of freedom-hating, America-hating former East Germans too young and uneducated to remember the nightmare into which the last socialist demagogue like yourself led their blinkered culture. Welcome to the cabaret, Michael Moore. Welcome home to your true country.

Too bad they impose confiscatory taxes on rich folks like you. But what’s sauce for the goose-stepper is sauce for the gander. This is what you want for all of us.

I would just like to point out that the man telling Americans that they will never be millionaires and that they should just give up is a man from a working class family in Flint, Michigan that, er um, how do I say this with a straight face, grew up to be a MILLIONAIRE.

He is his own proof that he is full of, how do you say it? Crap?

SLM3 · 12-31-2003, 02:50 AM

Trolling.

SLM3

Superbelt · 12-31-2003, 04:24 AM

He lives above a Baby Gap.

Not exactly penthouse living.

nanofever · 12-31-2003, 08:20 AM

Now that is some un-bias reporting, don't you agree Endymon ?

floydthebarber · 12-31-2003, 08:29 AM

All this claptrap doesn't change my mind about the man. He strikes a chord with many Americans, I'm sure that's what bugs the conservative right.
He's popular...get over it.

Lebell · 12-31-2003, 09:47 AM

Thanks for a good read, Endy.

Endymon32 · 12-31-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
He lives above a Baby Gap.

Not exactly penthouse living.

LOL yes, he does, in a million dollar apartment above a Baby Gap. See how Moore twists the truth...

Endymon32 · 12-31-2003, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nanofever
Now that is some un-bias reporting, don't you agree Endymon ?

Didnt say it was unbiased, just commented on how Moore defeats his own argument.

Endymon32 · 12-31-2003, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by floydthebarber
All this claptrap doesn't change my mind about the man. He strikes a chord with many Americans, I'm sure that's what bugs the conservative right.
He's popular...get over it.

If he and his veiws are so popular, why are they, er , not popular? I mean did you read his "payback Tuesday"article? O wait, he took it down after the polls showed that he was wrong. Did you read his article about how Bush is un popular? O wait he took it down after Bush's populartity soared. Did you read his Wesly Clark article? O he also took that down after Clark looked like a bad choice.

Sure, he is popular...

floydthebarber · 12-31-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endymon32
If he and his veiws are so popular, why are they, er , not popular? I mean did you read his "payback Tuesday"article? O wait, he took it down after the polls showed that he was wrong. Did you read his article about how Bush is un popular? O wait he took it down after Bush's populartity soared. Did you read his Wesly Clark article? O he also took that down after Clark looked like a bad choice.

Sure, he is popular...

I'm not here to defend the man, his books, his movies, or his articles. All I said was that he is popular...get over it.

madp · 12-31-2003, 04:23 PM

I have a friend, Fred Armeson (who is actually a SNL cast member right now) who, while trying to make a name for himself in "The Biz" made several fake, satirical documentaries. In one of them, he tries to force his way in to Moore's New York office with cameras rolling exactly like more did at the GM offices in "Roger and Me," and he gets bum-rushed out of Moore's office just like Moore did from the GM offices! Truly priceless and hilarious.

For documentation of Moore's innacuracies and outright lies, visit:

www.spinsanity.com

Endymon32 · 12-31-2003, 04:25 PM

But that sight has an agenda....thats all anyone says about websites that show Moore for what he is. Instead of arguing the data.

Endymon32 · 12-31-2003, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by floydthebarber
I'm not here to defend the man, his books, his movies, or his articles. All I said was that he is popular...get over it.

And I am saying that he is not as popular as he thinks, as evidenced by majority of people that idendtify themselves as republican or conservative in this nation.

madp · 12-31-2003, 04:29 PM

Lol!

Well, if anyone is unfamiliar with Spinsanity, I will insist that they visit the site before making such a judgment. Spinsanity calls bullshit on both the right and the left when they start spinning the facts to fit their rhetoric. It's a good place to when you're trying to digest the news of the week.

Strange Famous · 01-01-2004, 08:25 AM

I thought this was going to be about Mandy Moore for some reason. She's pretty hot.

How many character assasinations of Michael Moore does one forum need?!

The Conservatives who hate Moore should heed the wise words of the Imfamous Mobb Deep!

"Calling my name, you're only giving me props
Plus the fans that you got wondering what got you hot"

All of this is just more publicity for Michael Moore, and more book sales.

madp · 01-01-2004, 09:56 AM

"Character assassination" is based on innacuracies and lies. What you have witnessed would be more accurately described as an "expose."

Mobb Deep's barely literate. Why would anyone care what he thinks?

Strange Famous · 01-01-2004, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by madp
"Character assassination" is based on innacuracies and lies. What you have witnessed would be more accurately described as an "expose."

Mobb Deep's barely literate. Why would anyone care what he thinks?

There are two of Mobb Depp man! Havoc and Prodigy... this is what you get for trying to look hip and as if you know about all this new music the kid's listen to these days!!!

Nah, Im only joking, thats not meant as a diss or personal attack, But how is it an expose? What does it tell us that we dont know or that effects the validity of what Michael Moore is actually talking about? (ie guns are bad, Bush is a crook, corporate America is crooked...)

madp · 01-01-2004, 10:37 AM

The Moore information is an expose' because he has represented his work as "documentary," yet it has now been exposed as staged, contrived, and/or doctored. This is a well established fact. It is not "character assassination;" it is truth.

Whether or not you agree with Moore's misguided politics is irrelevant to his integrity as a filmmaker and political "journalist."

Endymon32 · 01-01-2004, 10:59 AM

And I am the only one that sees a man that came from a middle class family, with no college education that grows up to be a multimillionaire, living the American dream, trying to talk others out of DOING JUST THAT?

Moore is a joke.

Endymon32 · 01-01-2004, 11:01 AM

It seems that Mikey changes his tune about Osama bin Laden quite often. On September 12, 2001, Osama bin Laden was a monster created by the CIA.

Quote:

WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden!

Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA!

Don’t take my word for it — I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us.

The, conveniently, on October 3, 2003, he was a harmless man on in a cave on dialysis.

Quote:

Dear "Mr. President," who attacked the United States on September 11th—a guy on dialysis from a cave in Afghanistan, or our friends, the Saudi Arabians?

And let us not forget that in Dude, Where's My Country? Moore speculates that the 9/11 attackers were part of the Saudi air force.

Quote:

I would like to throw out a possibility here: what if September 11 was not a "terrorist" attack but, rather, a military attack against the United States? George, apparently you were a pilot once - how hard is it to hit a five-storey building at more than 500 miles an hour? The Pentagon is only five stories high. At 500 miles an hour, had the pilots been off by just a hair, they'd have been in the river. You do not get this skilled at learning how to fly jumbo jets by being taught on a video game machine at some dipshit flight training school in Arizona.

You learn to do this in the air force. Someone's air force.

The Saudi air force?

What if these weren't wacko terrorists, but military pilots who signed on to a suicide mission? What if they were doing this at the behest of either the Saudi government or certain disgruntled members of the Saudi royal family? The House of Saud, according to Robert Baer's book Sleeping With the Devil, is full of them. So, did certain factions within the Saudi royal family execute the attack on September 11? Were these pilots trained by the Saudis? Why are you so busy protecting the Saudis when you should be protecting us?

So, we've gone from OBL being a "monster" to a guy on dialysis in a cave to the 9/11 attacks being a plot by the Saudi air force. Then, on December 14, 2003, OBL was magically back to being behind 9/11 again.

Quote:

Meanwhile, anybody know where the guy is who killed 3,000 people on 9/11? Our other Frankenstein?? Maybe he's in a mouse hole.

So, it seems that Mike just can't make up his mind whether he thinks OBL was behind 9/11, whether it was the Saudi air force, whether or not OBL is a guy in a cave on dialysis, or whether he is a "monster" who killed 3,000 people.

Why, it's almost as if Mike really doesn't have much of a logical, consistent position on this issue, and keeps changing his tune depending on what he perceives is the best way to smear President Bush. Perish the thought.

Strange Famous · 01-01-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by madp
The Moore information is an expose' because he has represented his work as "documentary," yet it has now been exposed as staged, contrived, and/or doctored. This is a well established fact. It is not "character assassination;" it is truth.

Whether or not you agree with Moore's misguided politics is irrelevant to his integrity as a filmmaker and political "journalist."

Lets talk about the facts then.

Did Moore "stage" America's gun problem? Did he invent that?

Did Moore "stage" the gross insensitivity of the NRA holding a gun rally after a high school massacre?

Did Moore "make up" the fact that guns are widely available to American kids?

Endymon32 · 01-01-2004, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
Lets talk about the facts then.

Did Moore "stage" America's gun problem? Did he invent that?]

Nope but why did he not interview anyone with creditiantials to speak on the issues? Why did he not go to the areas with the most shootings and talk to people there? Why did he only go to safe white towns and make them look foolish? Washington DC has the highest gun murder rate in America, did Moore go there? Did he speak of the strict gun control laws in DC and how they didnt work? Nope, he did nothing to merit journalistic investigation.

Quote:

Did Moore "stage" the gross insensitivity of the NRA holding a gun rally after a high school massacre?]

Yes he did stage that, actually that is one of his biggest lies. He cut and edited Heston's speach. You obviously dont read anything posted that you disagree with. In fact I posted this about three times, and this is the lie that Moore is most often called on. The most blatant, lie.

Quote:

Did Moore "make up" the fact that guns are widely available to American kids?

Widley available? Please define that? You, like Moore, live in a black and white world, and you fail to realsie that the Kids that do manage to get guns rarely get legal guns. In fact in all of the Moore's pet shootings, the guns were obtained by illegal means, and the parents were either drug offenders, or dangereoulsy unaware of their child's psyhological out look.
The Colombine shooters got their guns illegally from a community member, who was, get this AN ANTI GUN ACTIVIST? LOL Why that fact was not in Moore's "unbiased" film is suspect.
The child that shot that girl in BFC was living in a crack home, and used an illegal gun that he took from his crack using parent to shoot up a fellow student. Then Moore goes on to blame DIck Clark for giving the crack head a job? Clearly that is the reason the youngster killed. Pardon me while i laugh my ass off.
Please Strange Famous, explain to me why crime in America is going down five years in a row, while in England it is skyrocketing? I mean you guys have strict gun laws and guns have been popping up all over the place.
Please tell me the stats on the wide access American kids have to guns please.

And then go and read the actual links that show that Moore is a liar, or do you just like to look stupid?

Strange Famous · 01-01-2004, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endymon32

Yes he did stage that, actually that is one of his biggest lies. He cut and edited Heston's speach. You obviously dont read anything posted that you disagree with. In fact I posted this about three times, and this is the lie that Moore is most often called on. The most blatant, lie.

Are you saying that the Rally did not take place?

Endymon32 · 01-01-2004, 11:34 AM

Yes I am Thats exactly what I am saying. The NRA meeting was cancelled, and the only people that went to Columbine were NRA members that had to be their for administrative purposes. IT was these people that Cheston, as president of said orgainisation gave a speech too. The speech was then edited by Moore to give the opposite meaning of what was said. Moore took clips from an NRA meeting that was shedulaed a year prior to the COlombine shooting as given to members of the NRA. He then clipped that speech with another speech given 8 months later in Flint Michigan for a ROCK THE VOTE rally, one that Moore even attendted.
If you look at the clip in the film, you can see Heston's clothes change from blue to red, and you can see "BUSH" banners and flags in the audience. It was incredibly sloppy work, and stupid too, for Moore to do something like that.

Strange Famous · 01-01-2004, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endymon32
Yes I am Thats exactly what I am saying. Moore took clips from an NRA meeting that was shedulaed a year prior to the COlombine shooting as given to members of the NRA. He then clipped that speech with another speech given 8 months later in Flint Michigan for a ROCK THE VOTE rally, one that Moore even attendted.
If you look at the clip in the film, you can see Heston's clothes change from blue to red, and you can see "BUSH" banners and flags in the audience. It was incredibly sloppy work, and stupid too, for Moore to do something like that.

" Ten days after Columbine, Charlton Heston held an NRA pro-gun rally in Denver. During the rally he stated, “I have a message from the mayor, Mr. Wellington Web, the mayor of Denver. He sent me this, and it says don’t come here. We don’t want you here. I say to the mayor, this is our country. As Americans we are free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. Don’t come here? We’re already here!”

http://www.utm.edu/research/philfilms/1/bowling.htm

Endymon32 · 01-01-2004, 11:47 AM

You are quoteing from the work in question? Man you really dont know how to make a point do you?

Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting ), whose place and date had been fixed years in advance.

Fact: At Denver, the NRA cancelled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' voting meeting -- that could not be cancelled because the state law governing nonprofits required that it be held. [No way to change location, since under NY law you have to give 10 days' advance notice of that to the members, there were upwards of 4,000,000 members -- and Columbine happened 11 days before the scheduled meeting.] As a newspaper reported:

In a letter to NRA members Wednesday, President Charlton Heston and the group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, said all seminars, workshops, luncheons, exhibits by gun makers and other vendors, and festivities are canceled.

All that's left is a members' reception with Rep. J.C. Watts, R-Okla., and the annual meeting, set for 10 a.m. May 1 in the Colorado Convention Center.

Under its bylaws and New York state law, the NRA must hold an annual meeting.

The NRA convention April 30-May 2 was expected to draw 22,000 members and give the city a $17.9 million economic boost.

"But the tragedy in Littleton last Tuesday calls upon us to take steps, along with dozens of other planned public events, to modify our schedule to show our profound sympathy and respect for the families and communities in the Denver area in their time of great loss," Heston and LaPierre wrote.

Fact: Heston's "cold dead hands" speech, which leads off Moore's depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was his gesture of gratitude upon his being given a handmade musket, at that annual meeting.

Fact: When Bowling continues on to the speech which Heston did give in Denver, it carefully edits it to change its theme.

Here is a link to the acutal speech Heston gave and what appeared on BFC.
http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html

Strange Famous · 01-01-2004, 11:52 AM

so the NRA held a Rally, only a few days after the Columbine tragedy?

if they are required to hold one, i would suggest they should have moved it somewhere.

Your articles and comments may prove that Moore doctored and edited the speech to make it appear misleading, what you cannot deny is that the NRA where there.

Endymon32 · 01-01-2004, 11:52 AM

Quoting the work in question to proof the validity of the work in question? LOL Poor poor poor argument skills.

Lebell · 01-01-2004, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
" Ten days after Columbine, Charlton Heston held an NRA pro-gun rally in Denver. During the rally he stated, “I have a message from the mayor, Mr. Wellington Web, the mayor of Denver. He sent me this, and it says don’t come here. We don’t want you here. I say to the mayor, this is our country. As Americans we are free to travel wherever we want in our broad land. Don’t come here? We’re already here!”

http://www.utm.edu/research/philfilms/1/bowling.htm

And if you did some research, you would learn:

-The Denver NRA convention was planned YEARS ahead of Columbine and thousands of people had made reservations to attend, yet the NRA CANCELLED the convention and ALL EVENTS except the annual shareholders meeting, (which they were obligated to have by NRA byrules).

-Moore EDITED the speech you quote, for maximum shock value. In context, Heston was saying correctly that the NRA was ALREADY in Denver, as our members live there as well and were grieving as well as everyone else. Unfortunately, NRA members were somehow supposed to feel responsible for the insane actions of two young men. (I wonder, were the manufacturers of black trench coats also somehow responsible?).

Endymon32 · 01-01-2004, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
so the NRA held a Rally, only a few days after the Columbine tragedy?

if they are required to hold one, i would suggest they should have moved it somewhere.

Your articles and comments may prove that Moore doctored and edited the speech to make it appear misleading, what you cannot deny is that the NRA where there.

They WERE there. It was not a rally, but an administrative voting meeting that they could not legally cancel or change. But that doesnt mean a thing to you or to Moore, as long as you can misquote and believe what you want. And what is wrong with the NRA having an administrators confrence and expressing their condolences to the community?

Endymon32 · 01-01-2004, 11:56 AM

The fact that Moore had to edit three speaches to get the desired results speaks highly of how the NRA cared about the community and how small Moore's point was in that he had to go to such great lengths to fabricate his point.

Endymon32 · 01-01-2004, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
so the NRA held a Rally, only a few days after the Columbine tragedy?

if they are required to hold one, i would suggest they should have moved it somewhere.

Your articles and comments may prove that Moore doctored and edited the speech to make it appear misleading, what you cannot deny is that the NRA where there.

For the fifth time, no they didnt have a rally. As much as you and Comrade Moore would like to make the claim that they did, they did not. Sorry that history doesnt agree with what you would like it to be.

redravin40 · 01-01-2004, 07:41 PM

I think this horse has been pretty much flogged to death.
Folks lets try to keep a level of decorum here.
A polite society is built on respect for even the people you disagree with.

12-31-2003, 08:20 AM	#4 (permalink)
nanofever Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe. Location: UCSB	Now that is some un-bias reporting, don't you agree Endymon ? __________________ I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

12-31-2003, 08:29 AM	#5 (permalink)
floydthebarber Insane Location: ?	All this claptrap doesn't change my mind about the man. He strikes a chord with many Americans, I'm sure that's what bugs the conservative right. He's popular...get over it. __________________ wish you were here

12-31-2003, 09:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Thanks for a good read, Endy. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-31-2003, 04:23 PM	#11 (permalink)
madp Insane Location: New Orleans/Chicago	I have a friend, Fred Armeson (who is actually a SNL cast member right now) who, while trying to make a name for himself in "The Biz" made several fake, satirical documentaries. In one of them, he tries to force his way in to Moore's New York office with cameras rolling exactly like more did at the GM offices in "Roger and Me," and he gets bum-rushed out of Moore's office just like Moore did from the GM offices! Truly priceless and hilarious. For documentation of Moore's innacuracies and outright lies, visit: www.spinsanity.com __________________ why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

12-31-2003, 04:29 PM	#14 (permalink)
madp Insane Location: New Orleans/Chicago	Lol! Well, if anyone is unfamiliar with Spinsanity, I will insist that they visit the site before making such a judgment. Spinsanity calls bullshit on both the right and the left when they start spinning the facts to fit their rhetoric. It's a good place to when you're trying to digest the news of the week. __________________ why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

12-31-2003, 02:50 AM	#2 (permalink)
SLM3 Insane	Trolling. SLM3

12-31-2003, 04:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	He lives above a Baby Gap. Not exactly penthouse living.

12-31-2003, 04:25 PM	#12 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	But that sight has an agenda....thats all anyone says about websites that show Moore for what he is. Instead of arguing the data.

01-01-2004, 08:25 AM	#15 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I thought this was going to be about Mandy Moore for some reason. She's pretty hot. How many character assasinations of Michael Moore does one forum need?! The Conservatives who hate Moore should heed the wise words of the Imfamous Mobb Deep! "Calling my name, you're only giving me props Plus the fans that you got wondering what got you hot" All of this is just more publicity for Michael Moore, and more book sales. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-01-2004, 09:56 AM	#16 (permalink)
madp Insane Location: New Orleans/Chicago	"Character assassination" is based on innacuracies and lies. What you have witnessed would be more accurately described as an "expose." Mobb Deep's barely literate. Why would anyone care what he thinks? __________________ why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

01-01-2004, 10:37 AM	#18 (permalink)
madp Insane Location: New Orleans/Chicago	The Moore information is an expose' because he has represented his work as "documentary," yet it has now been exposed as staged, contrived, and/or doctored. This is a well established fact. It is not "character assassination;" it is truth. Whether or not you agree with Moore's misguided politics is irrelevant to his integrity as a filmmaker and political "journalist." __________________ why are you wearing that stupid man suit?

01-01-2004, 10:59 AM	#19 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	And I am the only one that sees a man that came from a middle class family, with no college education that grows up to be a multimillionaire, living the American dream, trying to talk others out of DOING JUST THAT? Moore is a joke.

01-01-2004, 11:34 AM	#24 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	Yes I am Thats exactly what I am saying. The NRA meeting was cancelled, and the only people that went to Columbine were NRA members that had to be their for administrative purposes. IT was these people that Cheston, as president of said orgainisation gave a speech too. The speech was then edited by Moore to give the opposite meaning of what was said. Moore took clips from an NRA meeting that was shedulaed a year prior to the COlombine shooting as given to members of the NRA. He then clipped that speech with another speech given 8 months later in Flint Michigan for a ROCK THE VOTE rally, one that Moore even attendted. If you look at the clip in the film, you can see Heston's clothes change from blue to red, and you can see "BUSH" banners and flags in the audience. It was incredibly sloppy work, and stupid too, for Moore to do something like that. Last edited by Endymon32; 01-01-2004 at 11:39 AM..

01-01-2004, 11:47 AM	#26 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	You are quoteing from the work in question? Man you really dont know how to make a point do you? Fact: The Denver event was not a demonstration relating to Columbine, but an annual meeting ), whose place and date had been fixed years in advance. Fact: At Denver, the NRA cancelled all events (normally several days of committee meetings, sporting events, dinners, and rallies) save the annual members' voting meeting -- that could not be cancelled because the state law governing nonprofits required that it be held. [No way to change location, since under NY law you have to give 10 days' advance notice of that to the members, there were upwards of 4,000,000 members -- and Columbine happened 11 days before the scheduled meeting.] As a newspaper reported: In a letter to NRA members Wednesday, President Charlton Heston and the group's executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre, said all seminars, workshops, luncheons, exhibits by gun makers and other vendors, and festivities are canceled. All that's left is a members' reception with Rep. J.C. Watts, R-Okla., and the annual meeting, set for 10 a.m. May 1 in the Colorado Convention Center. Under its bylaws and New York state law, the NRA must hold an annual meeting. The NRA convention April 30-May 2 was expected to draw 22,000 members and give the city a $17.9 million economic boost. "But the tragedy in Littleton last Tuesday calls upon us to take steps, along with dozens of other planned public events, to modify our schedule to show our profound sympathy and respect for the families and communities in the Denver area in their time of great loss," Heston and LaPierre wrote. Fact: Heston's "cold dead hands" speech, which leads off Moore's depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was his gesture of gratitude upon his being given a handmade musket, at that annual meeting. Fact: When Bowling continues on to the speech which Heston did give in Denver, it carefully edits it to change its theme. Here is a link to the acutal speech Heston gave and what appeared on BFC. http://www.hardylaw.net/Bowlingtranscript.html Last edited by Endymon32; 01-01-2004 at 11:51 AM..

01-01-2004, 11:52 AM	#27 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	so the NRA held a Rally, only a few days after the Columbine tragedy? if they are required to hold one, i would suggest they should have moved it somewhere. Your articles and comments may prove that Moore doctored and edited the speech to make it appear misleading, what you cannot deny is that the NRA where there. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-01-2004, 11:52 AM	#28 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	Quoting the work in question to proof the validity of the work in question? LOL Poor poor poor argument skills.

01-01-2004, 11:56 AM	#31 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	The fact that Moore had to edit three speaches to get the desired results speaks highly of how the NRA cared about the community and how small Moore's point was in that he had to go to such great lengths to fabricate his point.

01-01-2004, 07:41 PM	#33 (permalink)
redravin40 Loser Location: With Jadzia	I think this horse has been pretty much flogged to death. Folks lets try to keep a level of decorum here. A polite society is built on respect for even the people you disagree with.