Ahhh ! Stop saying it! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

prosequence · 12-08-2003, 03:50 PM

Canada is NOT a "Bilingual" Country.
In actual fact, only New Brunswick is bilingual.
Not Ontario, not Quebec... none of them.
And definately not Canada !

Sorry had to get that out.

Easytiger · 12-08-2003, 04:17 PM

Do you feel better now?

prosequence · 12-08-2003, 04:19 PM

Yeah, a little, if only some others (namely politicians) would realize it.

Bob Biter · 12-08-2003, 04:22 PM

Please describe why only New Brunswick is bilingual.

Canada has laws for bilingual instructions, directions and warnings on pretty much all of its products. Francophones are spread out all over the country, although granted more concentrated in Quebec. Both national languages are taught in schools.

prosequence · 12-08-2003, 04:38 PM

New Brunswick is the only official bilingual province. No other province has adopted (or were forced) to become bilingual.

Also taught in schools, Maliseet, Yukranian, German, Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, Punjabi and Spanish.
Does not make them official languages.... although there is enough oriental populace in BC to push to have it Bilingual there, Japanese/Chinese and English.
I wonder why they haven't fought for it? I'm sure they would get the same funding the Francophones did.

Bob Biter · 12-08-2003, 05:40 PM

If Japanese and Chinese became official languages, I would have absolutely no problem with it. In fact I hope they do at some point. Diversity is what makes this country great. I guess one way to go about it would be to teach English and Japanese / Chinese as mandatory languages in provinces were they are prevalent, while teaching English and French in the provinces were they would be most pertinent. Also, all schools should offer at least one other language, but unfortunately funding for education is another headache.

As for New Brunswick, what exactly makes them an "officially bilingual" province? Is it the native francophone / anglophone ratio? I mean, Canada is "officially bilingual". As splck said in the other thread, actual distribution differs.

What I meant by English and French being taught in schools is that they are both mandatory. Other languages are not, although I would be more than happy if they were. Understanding another language is key to understanding other cultures.

rogue49 · 12-08-2003, 05:48 PM

It's interesting that you say this...I guess that's the "official" stance,
however...when I was up in Canada, there were MANY things listed with both English & French.
Shit...even an "Egg McMuffin had also a Eeuf McMuffin phrase on the package at McD's

I know you don't like the French aspect, but it is a part of your culture or at least marketing.
The US doesn't have any other language really shown nationwide and in the volume yours does.
The only time you see it, it in "certain" cultural areas where that nationality makes up the majority.

Sparhawk · 12-08-2003, 05:59 PM

I don't think countries can be bilingual. Next time I see Canada hanging around the pub I'll ask him(her?).

prosequence · 12-08-2003, 06:10 PM

I'll double check but two years ago Canada was not Officially Bilingual, I don't recall the status changing. If you can point me to the legislature that changed it I would appreciate it. No offense but I'm hoping your wrong, I would hate to think they changed the status without general populace knowing.
As for New Brunswick, Richard Hatfield (the premier at the time) agreed to table the legislature to make N.B the only official province. It was supposed to set an example for the rest of the provinces and also help him get re elected (large acadian base) and make him popular with the francophones.
Not even Quebec is bilingual, they are a "french" province, which personally pisses me off.

james t kirk · 12-08-2003, 06:14 PM

New Brunswick is very bilingual.

You can walk in any store, restaurant, McD's, Tim Hortons and speak english. The next guy behind you in line will speak french and at the drop of a hat, the guy will switch languages.

It truly is a bilingual province.

Montreal is a close second.

My boss is an anglo montrealer living in Toronto. My client is a francophone living in Quebec.

I have to laugh when they get together. The english guy speaks french to the french guy who answers in english.

It's like this game that they play (speak the other guy's language). It's really something to see. They are both proficient at the other language and can switch from one to the other at a drop of a hat. It's truly a Canadian thing.

My french is good enough to get my point across or figure out what the other guy is saying sometimes, but i am not proficient enough yet to play such word games.

Bob Biter · 12-08-2003, 06:24 PM

JTK, this is exactly what I like to see: when an anglophone and francophone speak to each other in the listener's native tongue. It shows that people can truly go beyond idiotic cultural stereotypes and actually learn something. It helps communication and is a good thing.

irateplatypus · 12-08-2003, 07:17 PM

the U.S. State Dept lists Canada as having both English and French as languages. I am unsure whether this refers to official languages or just the ones most commonly spoken.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2089.htm

Something i ran across on one of your government's websites seems to indicate that Canada is, by law, bilingual.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/O-3.01/...html#rid-88163

From the Preamble:

"WHEREAS the Constitution of Canada provides that English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada;"

splck · 12-08-2003, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rogue49
It's interesting that you say this...I guess that's the "official" stance,
however...when I was up in Canada, there were MANY things listed with both English & French.
Shit...even an "Egg McMuffin had also a Eeuf McMuffin phrase on the package at McD's

I know you don't like the French aspect, but it is a part of your culture or at least marketing.
The US doesn't have any other language really shown nationwide and in the volume yours does.
The only time you see it, it in "certain" cultural areas where that nationality makes up the majority.

The reason packaging has two languages on it is not marketing or culture but rather it's the law.

neddy65 · 12-09-2003, 06:58 AM

I have found that in order to get a gov't job you must speak both official languages so that you can serve people in the laguage of thier choosing. So far so good I say but, and this is the crux of the matter in my opinion, for the most part when you reach an agent of the gov't on the phone you are speaking to a francophone who speaks english(sorta) but would be far more comfortable adressing you in french. You will almost never reach an anglophone who speaks french(sorta). Don't get me wrong, I am all for cultural diversity and applaud our biligual status but I have found more emphasis is placed on anglophones learning french then the other way around.
If I travel through the northern and eastern most parts of New Brunswick I am more likely to be spoken to in french than in english and there is less chance the person who is waiting on me can speak english.
A final note--- In the francophone school here in Fredericton the students may not speak english> Not in the halls, not in the lunch room and especialy not in the classrooms. Something to think about eh?

silent_jay · 12-12-2003, 11:12 PM

i lived in Montreal for 10 months and didn't have a hard time communicating at all. I am glad that Canada has both French and English, as part of my ancestory involves French. Vive le Canada!!!

OFKU0 · 12-13-2003, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus

"WHEREAS the Constitution of Canada provides that English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada;"

From my understanding Canada is not an Officially Blilngual country however both French and English are recognizes as Official languages.

New Brunswick is the only Officially Bilingual province by status.

The Federal government is officially bilingual meaning everything done is in both languages equally.

There is alot of angst going on here in Ottawa because the mayor has lied again concerning Ottawa becoming Officially Bilingual. He has said numerous times that 'practical' bilingualism where warranted is functioning and doesn't support the Official tag.Now since there is Liberal premier in Ontario,the very powerful French lobby seems to have gotten there way.

The problem is that no one is willing to explain what exactly the end result will be concerning the word'official'. Everyone in support of the 'official' tag is saying we will tell you after it becomes entrenched in law. That is not fair especially since the amount of francophones in the amalgamated city of Ottawa is about 10%.

If it gets to the point in which some people have suggested that being,..private companies, convienient stores etc,..have to have all bilingual staff,..Ottawa will go back to being a government town.Already rumblings from the tech sector (Nortel) say if the 'official' status affects the way they do business, they will pullout. That is bad news since the tech sector in Ottawa has almost the same amount of employees as does the different levels of government.

Bob Biter · 12-14-2003, 04:33 PM

Again, actual distribution differs depending on location. Quebec has more francophones, so naturally you're more likely to be served in French, except in a few places like Montreal (where I've lived most of my life and where there's a clear divide between the anglophone and franchophone areas) and Hull (right next to Ottawa). Any province wishing to adopt official bilingual status must look at the French/English ratio. I suppose that's why New Brunswick did this, since said ratio is more even than say Quebec or Ontario.

Like I've said before, Canada has two official languages that must be used in every federal publication, as well as pretty much all products sold or issued in the country. This way, anyone (who can communicate in French or English, of course) can understand labels and government forms and all manners of official documents. Businesses who want to survive here must use both languages, since it gives them access to a larger market and is the law. As a translator, I've seen the results of such practices.

Basically, knowing both languages not only makes you better educated, but also increases your marketability. I wish everyone would be motivated to learn at least both of our national languages, but then again, I have many pipe dreams.

silent_jay · 12-18-2003, 05:52 PM

I wish i would have learned french as a child or teenager it definitle ymakes you more marketable to employer especially if you want work in Ottawa

prosequence · 12-22-2003, 01:55 PM

The official word is in.
Only New Brunswick is "officially" bilingual.
The federal government offices are bilingual as well.
But to my relief CANADA is NOT bilingual !
This came from my MLA after trying to navigate the website and not finding specific information.

silent_jay · 12-22-2003, 08:29 PM

Canada may not be "officially" bilingual but if you want a good job in the nations capital good luck without it. by good i mean government.

prosequence · 12-24-2003, 04:53 PM

Work for the government... hmmm I rather have them work for me. And by work I don't mean to try and come up with more ways to screw me in taxes and such.
I think it's ridiculous to have to be bilingual to work in the government, there's no need for it, think of the thousands of translators you are putting out of business, not to mention who the hell really listens to any politician anyway.
As a quote I heard one time said :

"How do you now a politician is lying? His lips are moving."

Monre · 12-24-2003, 05:52 PM

Quebec really should be Bilingual. I've visited it on many occasians and pretty much all conversations on the streets are in french. It may not be offical but it doesn't really change anything becuase all businesses run in french too.

silent_jay · 12-24-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Monre
Quebec really should be Bilingual. I've visited it on many occasians and pretty much all conversations on the streets are in french. It may not be offical but it doesn't really change anything becuase all businesses run in french too.

??????did you confuse quebec and ontario?

Bob Biter · 12-25-2003, 11:06 PM

Prosequence, bilingual government workers are not putting translators out of work. Why? Because many of them ARE translators. I was one myself and there has never been a shortage of work. The reason bilingual government employees are favoured is because every Canadian citizen should be able to access federal services in either French or English, our country's two official languages.

As I've said before, actual distribution of francophones and anglophones vary greatly, which explains why, for example, one is most likely to hear French in Quebec and English in Ontario.

Monroe, I too wish Quebec could be entirely bilingual. I wish all Canadians could speak French and English fluently (it would sure greatly cut down the separatist sentiment), but as you've said, the reality of things often makes this unnecessary. Someone who grows up in a French-speaking town is not very likely to learn English, unless said person would want to communicate with anglophones and vice-versa. By the way, how would you feel if a francophone wished that every province was bilingual as well?

12-08-2003, 03:50 PM	#1 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Ahhh ! Stop saying it! Canada is NOT a "Bilingual" Country. In actual fact, only New Brunswick is bilingual. Not Ontario, not Quebec... none of them. And definately not Canada ! Sorry had to get that out. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

12-08-2003, 04:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Yeah, a little, if only some others (namely politicians) would realize it. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

12-08-2003, 04:22 PM	#4 (permalink)
Bob Biter Non-smokers die everyday Location: Montreal	Please describe why only New Brunswick is bilingual. Canada has laws for bilingual instructions, directions and warnings on pretty much all of its products. Francophones are spread out all over the country, although granted more concentrated in Quebec. Both national languages are taught in schools. __________________ A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.

12-08-2003, 04:38 PM	#5 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	New Brunswick is the only official bilingual province. No other province has adopted (or were forced) to become bilingual. Also taught in schools, Maliseet, Yukranian, German, Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, Punjabi and Spanish. Does not make them official languages.... although there is enough oriental populace in BC to push to have it Bilingual there, Japanese/Chinese and English. I wonder why they haven't fought for it? I'm sure they would get the same funding the Francophones did. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

12-08-2003, 05:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
Bob Biter Non-smokers die everyday Location: Montreal	If Japanese and Chinese became official languages, I would have absolutely no problem with it. In fact I hope they do at some point. Diversity is what makes this country great. I guess one way to go about it would be to teach English and Japanese / Chinese as mandatory languages in provinces were they are prevalent, while teaching English and French in the provinces were they would be most pertinent. Also, all schools should offer at least one other language, but unfortunately funding for education is another headache. As for New Brunswick, what exactly makes them an "officially bilingual" province? Is it the native francophone / anglophone ratio? I mean, Canada is "officially bilingual". As splck said in the other thread, actual distribution differs. What I meant by English and French being taught in schools is that they are both mandatory. Other languages are not, although I would be more than happy if they were. Understanding another language is key to understanding other cultures. __________________ A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.

12-08-2003, 04:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
Easytiger Insane Location: Tigerland	Do you feel better now?

12-08-2003, 05:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	It's interesting that you say this...I guess that's the "official" stance, however...when I was up in Canada, there were MANY things listed with both English & French. Shit...even an "Egg McMuffin had also a Eeuf McMuffin phrase on the package at McD's I know you don't like the French aspect, but it is a part of your culture or at least marketing. The US doesn't have any other language really shown nationwide and in the volume yours does. The only time you see it, it in "certain" cultural areas where that nationality makes up the majority.

12-08-2003, 05:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	I don't think countries can be bilingual. Next time I see Canada hanging around the pub I'll ask him(her?). __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

12-08-2003, 06:10 PM	#9 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	I'll double check but two years ago Canada was not Officially Bilingual, I don't recall the status changing. If you can point me to the legislature that changed it I would appreciate it. No offense but I'm hoping your wrong, I would hate to think they changed the status without general populace knowing. As for New Brunswick, Richard Hatfield (the premier at the time) agreed to table the legislature to make N.B the only official province. It was supposed to set an example for the rest of the provinces and also help him get re elected (large acadian base) and make him popular with the francophones. Not even Quebec is bilingual, they are a "french" province, which personally pisses me off. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

12-08-2003, 06:14 PM	#10 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	New Brunswick is very bilingual. You can walk in any store, restaurant, McD's, Tim Hortons and speak english. The next guy behind you in line will speak french and at the drop of a hat, the guy will switch languages. It truly is a bilingual province. Montreal is a close second. My boss is an anglo montrealer living in Toronto. My client is a francophone living in Quebec. I have to laugh when they get together. The english guy speaks french to the french guy who answers in english. It's like this game that they play (speak the other guy's language). It's really something to see. They are both proficient at the other language and can switch from one to the other at a drop of a hat. It's truly a Canadian thing. My french is good enough to get my point across or figure out what the other guy is saying sometimes, but i am not proficient enough yet to play such word games.

12-08-2003, 06:24 PM	#11 (permalink)
Bob Biter Non-smokers die everyday Location: Montreal	JTK, this is exactly what I like to see: when an anglophone and francophone speak to each other in the listener's native tongue. It shows that people can truly go beyond idiotic cultural stereotypes and actually learn something. It helps communication and is a good thing. __________________ A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.

12-08-2003, 07:17 PM	#12 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	the U.S. State Dept lists Canada as having both English and French as languages. I am unsure whether this refers to official languages or just the ones most commonly spoken. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2089.htm Something i ran across on one of your government's websites seems to indicate that Canada is, by law, bilingual. http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/O-3.01/...html#rid-88163 From the Preamble: "WHEREAS the Constitution of Canada provides that English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada;" __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

12-09-2003, 06:58 AM	#14 (permalink)
neddy65 Loves green eggs and ham Location: I'm just sittin' here watching the world go round and round	I have found that in order to get a gov't job you must speak both official languages so that you can serve people in the laguage of thier choosing. So far so good I say but, and this is the crux of the matter in my opinion, for the most part when you reach an agent of the gov't on the phone you are speaking to a francophone who speaks english(sorta) but would be far more comfortable adressing you in french. You will almost never reach an anglophone who speaks french(sorta). Don't get me wrong, I am all for cultural diversity and applaud our biligual status but I have found more emphasis is placed on anglophones learning french then the other way around. If I travel through the northern and eastern most parts of New Brunswick I am more likely to be spoken to in french than in english and there is less chance the person who is waiting on me can speak english. A final note--- In the francophone school here in Fredericton the students may not speak english> Not in the halls, not in the lunch room and especialy not in the classrooms. Something to think about eh? __________________ If you're travelling at the speed of light, and you turn the headlights on, do they do anything? My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father, prepare to die! Drink Dickens' Hard Cider because nothing makes a girl smile like a Hard DIckens' Cider!

12-12-2003, 11:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	i lived in Montreal for 10 months and didn't have a hard time communicating at all. I am glad that Canada has both French and English, as part of my ancestory involves French. Vive le Canada!!! __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

12-14-2003, 04:33 PM	#17 (permalink)
Bob Biter Non-smokers die everyday Location: Montreal	Again, actual distribution differs depending on location. Quebec has more francophones, so naturally you're more likely to be served in French, except in a few places like Montreal (where I've lived most of my life and where there's a clear divide between the anglophone and franchophone areas) and Hull (right next to Ottawa). Any province wishing to adopt official bilingual status must look at the French/English ratio. I suppose that's why New Brunswick did this, since said ratio is more even than say Quebec or Ontario. Like I've said before, Canada has two official languages that must be used in every federal publication, as well as pretty much all products sold or issued in the country. This way, anyone (who can communicate in French or English, of course) can understand labels and government forms and all manners of official documents. Businesses who want to survive here must use both languages, since it gives them access to a larger market and is the law. As a translator, I've seen the results of such practices. Basically, knowing both languages not only makes you better educated, but also increases your marketability. I wish everyone would be motivated to learn at least both of our national languages, but then again, I have many pipe dreams. __________________ A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.

12-18-2003, 05:52 PM	#18 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	I wish i would have learned french as a child or teenager it definitle ymakes you more marketable to employer especially if you want work in Ottawa __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

12-22-2003, 01:55 PM	#19 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	The official word is in. Only New Brunswick is "officially" bilingual. The federal government offices are bilingual as well. But to my relief CANADA is NOT bilingual ! This came from my MLA after trying to navigate the website and not finding specific information. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

12-22-2003, 08:29 PM	#20 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Canada may not be "officially" bilingual but if you want a good job in the nations capital good luck without it. by good i mean government. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

12-24-2003, 04:53 PM	#21 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Work for the government... hmmm I rather have them work for me. And by work I don't mean to try and come up with more ways to screw me in taxes and such. I think it's ridiculous to have to be bilingual to work in the government, there's no need for it, think of the thousands of translators you are putting out of business, not to mention who the hell really listens to any politician anyway. As a quote I heard one time said : "How do you now a politician is lying? His lips are moving." __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

12-24-2003, 05:52 PM	#22 (permalink)
Monre Banned	Quebec really should be Bilingual. I've visited it on many occasians and pretty much all conversations on the streets are in french. It may not be offical but it doesn't really change anything becuase all businesses run in french too.

12-25-2003, 11:06 PM	#24 (permalink)
Bob Biter Non-smokers die everyday Location: Montreal	Prosequence, bilingual government workers are not putting translators out of work. Why? Because many of them ARE translators. I was one myself and there has never been a shortage of work. The reason bilingual government employees are favoured is because every Canadian citizen should be able to access federal services in either French or English, our country's two official languages. As I've said before, actual distribution of francophones and anglophones vary greatly, which explains why, for example, one is most likely to hear French in Quebec and English in Ontario. Monroe, I too wish Quebec could be entirely bilingual. I wish all Canadians could speak French and English fluently (it would sure greatly cut down the separatist sentiment), but as you've said, the reality of things often makes this unnecessary. Someone who grows up in a French-speaking town is not very likely to learn English, unless said person would want to communicate with anglophones and vice-versa. By the way, how would you feel if a francophone wished that every province was bilingual as well? __________________ A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.