A Veterans Day reminder - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Peetster · 11-11-2003, 05:54 AM

Published in the Washington Times' Editorial Section, Nov 11 '03

It was true during the days of British Imperialism that the Crown's soldiers were viewed as "second-class citizens". They were expected, however, to protect the population from external threats with their lives if necessary. To some extent, these sentiments still can be found in America, especially in more "liberated" circles.

Quote:

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool — you bet that Tommy sees!

— Rudyard Kipling's "Tommy"

reconmike · 11-11-2003, 07:10 AM

Thanks for the post this poem Peester,

It is a sad but true state of affairs in this country how vets are treated.

And to my fellow brothers and sisters of military service some do value the sacrifice we have made.

Bill O'Rights · 11-11-2003, 07:51 AM

We can listen as the D.J. plays "America The Beautiful", or "God Bless America", on the radio today, and feel all warm and fuzzy as though we've done some sort of patriotic duty...as veterans wait months to see a V.A. doctor, or sit in homeless shelters.

I enjoyed that poem Peetster, but I can see that not a whole lot has changed after all these years. But, I suppose that I should be grateful that at least this one day has been set aside to honor the vets.

*edit*I do note, as I type this, that after 21 "views" the only responses are from vets. Eh, I'm sure that'll change shortly.

cchris · 11-11-2003, 08:30 AM

My Dad signed up for duty underage only to be sent to Darwin after the first wave of Japanese bombers had tried to take My Country away from the simple folk that set the standard.
He came back with issues but I will never forget the struggles that continue to plague us.
Keeping the peace after that makes the most impact.
There is nothing wrong with expressing feelings especially the need to talk about and feel proud about Vets.

filtherton · 11-11-2003, 10:40 AM

I always think of this on veteran's day.

http://zoysia.uml.edu/archives/peace/0348.html

Quote:

A veteran remembers

By Howard Zinn, 11/11/99

Let's go back to the beginning of Veterans Day. It used to be Armistice Day, because at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month of 1918, World War I came to an end.

We must not forget that conflict. It revealed the essence of war, of all wars, because however ''just'' or ''humanitarian'' may be the claims, at the irreducible core of all war is the slaughter of the innocent, organized by national leaders, accompanied by lies. World War I was its epitome, as generals and politicians sent young men forward from their trenches, bayonets fixed, to gain a few miles, even a few yards, at frightful cost.

In July 1916 the British General Douglas Haig ordered 11 divisions of English soldiers to climb out of their trenches and move toward the German lines. The six German divisions opened up with their machine guns. Of the 110,000 who attacked, more than half were killed or wounded - all those bodies strewn on no man's land, the ghostly territory between the contending trenches. That scenario went on for years. In the first battle of the Marne there were a million casualties, 500,000 on each side.

The soldiers began to rebel, which is always the most heroic thing soldiers can do, for which they should be given medals. In the French Army, out of 112 divisions, 68 would have mutinies. Fifty men would be shot by firing squads.

Three of those executions became the basis for the late filmmaker Stanley Kubrick's antiwar masterpiece, ''Paths of Glory.'' In that film a pompous general castigates his soldiers for retreating and talks of ''patriotism.'' Kirk Douglas, the lieutenant colonel who defends his men, enrages the general by quoting the famous lines of Samuel Johnson: ''Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.''

The supposed moral justification of that war (the evil Kaiser, the Belgian babies) disintegrated quickly after it ended with sudden recognition of the 10 million dead in the mud of France and the gassed, shellshocked, and limbless veterans confronting the world.

The ugliness of that war was uncomplicated by the moral righteousness that made later wars, from World War II on, unsullied in our memory, or at least acceptable. Vietnam was the stark exception. But even there our national leaders have worked hard to smother what they call ''the Vietnam syndrome.'' They want us to forget what we learned at the Vietnam War's end: that our leaders cannot be trusted, that modern war is inevitably a war against civilians and particularly children, that only a determined citizenry can stop the government when it embarks on mass murder.

Our decent impulse, to recognize the ordeal of our veterans, has been used to obscure the fact that they died, they were crippled, for no good cause other than the power and profit of a few. Veterans Day, instead of an occasion for denouncing war, has become an occasion for bringing out the flags, the uniforms, the martial music, the patriotic speeches reeking with hypocrisy. Those who name holidays, playing on our genuine feeling for veterans, have turned a day that celebrated the end of a horror into a day to honor militarism.

As a combat veteran myself, of a ''good war,'' against fascism, I do not want the recognition of my service to be used as a glorification of war. At the end of that war, in which 50 million died, the people of the world should have shouted ''Enough!'' We should have decided that from that moment on, we would renounce war - and there would be no Korean War, Vietnam War, Panama War, Grenada War, Gulf War, Balkan War.

The reason for such a decision is that war in our time - whatever ''humanitarian'' motives are claimed by our political leaders - is always a war against children: the child amputees created by our bombing of Yugoslavia, the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children dead as a result of our postwar sanctions. Veterans Day should be an occasion for a national vow: No more war victims on the other side; no more war veterans on our side.

Howard Zinn is professor emeritus at Boston University and author of ''A People's History of the United States.''

This story ran on page A27 of the Boston Globe on 11/11/99.
© Copyright 1999 Globe Newspaper Company.

This op-ed got him fired from the globe. Funny, that they'd fire a veteran for expressing his views on veteran's day. Nowadays it seems that many people think that veterans fought so we could have a day off from school or work.

Ustwo · 11-11-2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Our decent impulse, to recognize the ordeal of our veterans, has been used to obscure the fact that they died, they were crippled, for no good cause other than the power and profit of a few.

Glad he was fired. He should have been

eple · 11-11-2003, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
Glad he was fired. He should have been

''

grrr....

Good article filtherton. Militarism takes many disguises, but this one is pretty obvious. What is the point of remembering the sacirfice made by soliders if it is only used to support the ones responsible for the wars in the first place? We honour our soliders in Norway too, but the point is never to support militarist paradigms, rather to remember the madness and evil of war.

Bill O'Rights · 11-11-2003, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
Glad he was fired. He should have been

Why?

Ustwo · 11-11-2003, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by eple
''

grrr....

Good article filtherton. Militarism takes many disguises, but this one is pretty obvious. What is the point of remembering the sacirfice made by soliders if it is only used to support the ones responsible for the wars in the first place? We honour our soliders in Norway too, but the point is never to support militarist paradigms, rather to remember the madness and evil of war.

Sorry but lets not over generalize here. I'm glad that dolt was fired, since I rather doubt the population of England was fighting for the wealth and power of the few.

There are times you need to defend yourself from the aggressive nature of others and yes that can be glorious. War brings out the best and worst in men, it is the greatest trail there is, and to belittle the sacrifice of a nation as nothing but a maiming for the good of the powerful is disgusting.

War is as much a part of human nature as sex, you can't wish it away.

seretogis · 11-11-2003, 01:47 PM

It's sad that we have to designate one day as a day to remember those who fought and died for our freedom. I'm going to snatch a saying from the tree huggers and say, "Veteran's Day is every day!"

reconmike · 11-11-2003, 03:00 PM

Howard Zinn is a jackass, just another kissie kissie tree hugging professor.

I am also glad he was shit-canned for his drivel, I would love for him to come down to my local VFW and rant his BS.

I did a little research on the esteemed Mr Zinn, and he was a bombardier in the air force.

I havent been able to find if he was EVER on the ground in combat or just dropping bombs killing indiscriminatly,
he talks like an expert on the subject when his "combat"
job entailed opening airplane bomb doors.

Ustwo · 11-11-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by reconmike

I havent been able to find if he was EVER on the ground in combat or just dropping bombs killing indiscriminatly,
he talks like an expert on the subject when his "combat"
job entailed opening airplane bomb doors.

He might have been on the push button side of the war, and he might now be a dirt loving hippie, but being in a bomber wasn't safe or fun.

reconmike · 11-11-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
He might have been on the push button side of the war, and he might now we a dirt loving hippie, but being in a bomber wasn't safe or fun.

I didnt say it was safe or fun, and I have seen how much flak a bomber will take.
But I am still searching as to where he flew and how many sorties.

eple · 11-12-2003, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reconmike
I didnt say it was safe or fun, and I have seen how much flak a bomber will take.
But I am still searching as to where he flew and how many sorties.

*I decided a personal attack would work here. It didn't*

MahlerIsGod · 11-12-2003, 01:49 AM

Thanks filtherton. I hadn't read that before.

DukeLeto · 11-12-2003, 08:09 AM

What is disgusting, UsTwo, is when "the sacrifice of a nation" really is nothing more than "maiming for the good of the powerful."

Pointing out when this is true is not disgusting.

It is honest.

Conclamo Ludus · 11-12-2003, 08:40 AM

War is absolute hell. That is why I commend anyone who gets themselves within range of it. I don't care if you are Howard Zinn or Jessica Lynch. I thank all our veterans for serving their duty.

filtherton · 11-12-2003, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo

War is as much a part of human nature as sex, you can't wish it away.

You make it sound as if war is inevitable. "Human nature" is a silly way to define it, it implies that we have no choice in the matter. It makes it sound like a world without war couldn't exist with humans in control. Maybe that is how you feel. Say what you want about the heroic deeds of soldiers, but right now i think that war is always the result of greed and selfishness.

And i think zinn is right in claiming that most wars are/were unjust and for the benefit of the people in power. For every "war against fascism" there is at least one or two vietnams. Why should he be fired for pointing that out?

Quote:

from reconmike
Howard Zinn is a jackass, just another kissie kissie tree hugging professor.

You say that as if it is relevant.
And who are you? Some random person posting on an internet message board. I don't know you very well, but i trust his credentials over yours any day.

Quote:

I am also glad he was shit-canned for his drivel, I would love for him to come down to my local VFW and rant his BS.

Would you guys beat him up for claiming that some of you fought in unjust wars?

Quote:

I did a little research on the esteemed Mr Zinn, and he was a bombardier in the air force.

I havent been able to find if he was EVER on the ground in combat or just dropping bombs killing indiscriminatly,
he talks like an expert on the subject when his "combat"
job entailed opening airplane bomb doors.

Would you be questioning his credentials if you agreed with him? Besides, i didn't know you had to be infantry to have an opinion on veteran's affairs. Maybe you could go down to your vfw and rant your BS about the credibility bombadiers lack because they have no direct man to man combat experience.

reconmike · 11-12-2003, 04:43 PM

First of all this was a veterans day thread, how did it turn into an anti-war/ Zinn thread?

quote:
You say that as if it is relevant.
And who are you? Some random person posting on an internet message board. I don't know you very well, but i trust his credentials over yours any day.

I am sure I have seen more horrors of war first hand from my vantage point then Zinn has, but I digress.

quote:
Would you guys beat him up for claiming that some of you fought in unjust wars?

Beat him up? Ofcourse not, but laugh him out of the place, sure.

quote:
Would you be questioning his credentials if you agreed with him? Besides, i didn't know you had to be infantry to have an opinion on veteran's affairs. Maybe you could go down to your vfw and rant your BS about the credibility bombadiers lack because they have no direct man to man combat experience.

I already have been there with a copy of his little rant,
and I recieved comments raging from,

was he ever on the ground,

in WW1 during treanch warfare thats how they fought

and my favorite was.... wanna buy a french rifle nearly new, never been fired only dropped once.

The wonderful Mr. Zinn will be at Rutgers here in Jersey in April next year, I am looking forward to attending and asking him some questions.
Maybe even invite him down to my VFW which is only 2 miles away.

Mephisto2 · 11-12-2003, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
Sorry but lets not over generalize here. I'm glad that dolt was fired, since I rather doubt the population of England was fighting for the wealth and power of the few.

Well, for starters WWI was touted as a war to protect small nations and in support of self determination. It wasn't. It was mostly due to treaty obligations, a naval arms race and an enormous amount of arrogance and pomposity in the political and military leadership circles of the main protaganists.

I recommend you read some of the following books for a more detailed insight into this conflict.

The Guns of August by Barbara W Tuchman
1914 by Lyn Macdonald
1915 - the death of innocence by Lyn Macdonald
Dreadnought - Britian, Germany and the coming of the Great War by Robert K Massie
The Arming of Europe and the Making of the First World War by David G Herrmann
The Lions of July - Prelude to War, 1914 by William Jannen Jr
The Pity of War by Niall Ferguson
The Peacemakers by Margaret Macmillan
First World War by Martin Gilbert

And yes, I have read them all. I think you'll find that such simplistic sweeping generalizations are no more appropriate to examining WWI, than saying something like "America is a war-mongerer".

Also, for the record, 40,000 Irishmen died during WWI. Many of them brave Ulster protestants massacred during the Somme, but many more Irish nationalists who signed up under the mistaken promise that supporting the British Crown would result in Irish independence. Obviously it did not, and the Irish War of Independence then broke out around 1919-1922.

Mr Mephisto

debaser · 11-12-2003, 05:56 PM

Quote:

The soldiers began to rebel, which is always the most heroic thing soldiers can do, for which they should be given medals.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.

Zinn is not a moron or a tree-hugger, he is a dreamer. He wants the end of war, and that is noble. It is also about as likely as me giving birth to bull. War is not a part of human nature, it is a part of the human condition. That will never change. The minute we all throw down our guns, strap on our sandals and start singing "Kumbayah", someone will pick up his gun and take advantage of the situation. Wash, rinse, repeat.

It is a strange situation find ourselves in. We must constantly work for peace with the full knowlege that we will never achieve it. Exit Sisiphus stage left.

That being said, I wish to thank, from the bottom of my heart, all the veterans who have served before me. Mighty big boots to fill guys...

And I leave you with a quote:

Quote:

Originally posted by John Stewart Mill
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. "

Mephisto2 · 11-12-2003, 06:02 PM

Aren't "Op Ed" pieces specifically meant to engender debate and a sense of controversy?

I wonder if I quoted some of the claptrap transmitted on Fox News everynight would my post be welcomed in an equivalent manner?

I think his piece was interesting, provocative and right on some points, wrong on others. In other words, it did exactly what it was meant to do.

Back to "Remembrance Day"...

Do you Americans traditionally pause of a minute's silence at 11am on Nov 11th?

Mr Mephisto

debaser · 11-12-2003, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto

Back to "Remembrance Day"...

Do you Americans traditionally pause of a minute's silence at 11am on Nov 11th?

Yes, we face to the West as well.

Mephisto2 · 11-12-2003, 08:52 PM

Why the west? The war in the Pacific I presume?

Mr Mephisto

Peetster · 11-13-2003, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
I wonder if I quoted some of the claptrap transmitted on Fox News everynight would my post be welcomed in an equivalent manner?
Mr Mephisto

I suggest that there is some difference between the typical OpEd piece and a quote from noted poet Rudyard Kippling.

Bill O'Rights · 11-13-2003, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto

Back to "Remembrance Day"...

Do you Americans traditionally pause of a minute's silence at 11am on Nov 11th?

Mr Mephisto

I remember, as a young child, in the late sixties, doing this. I was from a small town in southwestern Pennslvania where tradition still ran strong. Sadly, I don't think that we Americans do this any longer, even in the remotest of regions, to the best of my knowledge.

Veterans day has become about "White Sales" at J.C Penney's.

Sparhawk · 11-13-2003, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill O'Rights
I remember, as a young child, in the late sixties, doing this. I was from a small town in southwestern Pennslvania where tradition still ran strong. Sadly, I don't think that we Americans do this any longer, even in the remotest of regions, to the best of my knowledge.

Veterans day has become about "White Sales" at J.C Penney's.

I was at Arlington National Cemetery for Veteran's Day 2002. It was raining, windy, miserable- and one of the prouder moments in my young life.

Bill O'Rights · 11-13-2003, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparhawk
I was at Arlington National Cemetery for Veteran's Day 2002. It was raining, windy, miserable- and one of the prouder moments in my young life.

Sadly, I fear that there are few who would understand the meaning behind the words that you have written. I do.

*Stands back, comes to the position of attention and renders Sparhawk the proper hand salute*

Mephisto2 · 11-13-2003, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peetster
I suggest that there is some difference between the typical OpEd piece and a quote from noted poet Rudyard Kippling.

What?

I was not referring to the poem at all.

Mr Mephisto

Peetster · 11-13-2003, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr Mephisto
What?

I was not referring to the poem at all.

I lost track of what was being refered to as "Claptrap". Sorry.

Mephisto2 · 11-16-2003, 06:16 PM

NP

It was an interesting thread whilst it lasted!

Mr Mephisto

11-11-2003, 07:10 AM	#2 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	Thanks for the post this poem Peester, It is a sad but true state of affairs in this country how vets are treated. And to my fellow brothers and sisters of military service some do value the sacrifice we have made. __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him?

11-11-2003, 07:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	We can listen as the D.J. plays "America The Beautiful", or "God Bless America", on the radio today, and feel all warm and fuzzy as though we've done some sort of patriotic duty...as veterans wait months to see a V.A. doctor, or sit in homeless shelters. I enjoyed that poem <i><b>Peetster</i></b>, but I can see that not a whole lot has changed after all these years. But, I suppose that I should be grateful that at least this one day has been set aside to honor the vets. <i>edit</i>I do note, as I type this, that after 21 "views" the only responses are from vets. Eh, I'm sure that'll change shortly. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. Last edited by Bill O'Rights; 11-11-2003 at 07:54 AM..

11-11-2003, 08:30 AM	#4 (permalink)
cchris Junkie Location: Sydney	My Dad signed up for duty underage only to be sent to Darwin after the first wave of Japanese bombers had tried to take My Country away from the simple folk that set the standard. He came back with issues but I will never forget the struggles that continue to plague us. Keeping the peace after that makes the most impact. There is nothing wrong with expressing feelings especially the need to talk about and feel proud about Vets. __________________ There's a fine line between participation and mockery

11-11-2003, 01:47 PM	#10 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	It's sad that we have to designate one day as a day to remember those who fought and died for our freedom. I'm going to snatch a saying from the tree huggers and say, "Veteran's Day is every day!" __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

11-11-2003, 03:00 PM	#11 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	Howard Zinn is a jackass, just another kissie kissie tree hugging professor. I am also glad he was shit-canned for his drivel, I would love for him to come down to my local VFW and rant his BS. I did a little research on the esteemed Mr Zinn, and he was a bombardier in the air force. I havent been able to find if he was EVER on the ground in combat or just dropping bombs killing indiscriminatly, he talks like an expert on the subject when his "combat" job entailed opening airplane bomb doors. __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him?

11-12-2003, 01:49 AM	#15 (permalink)
MahlerIsGod At The Globe Showing Will How Its Done Location: London/Elysium	Thanks filtherton. I hadn't read that before. __________________ "But a work of art is a conscious human effort that has to do with communication. It is that or its nothing. When an accident is applauded as a work of art, when a cult grows up around the deliciousness of inadvertent beauty, we are in the presence of the greatest decadence the West has known in its history."

11-12-2003, 08:09 AM	#16 (permalink)
DukeLeto Upright Location: Minneapolis	What is disgusting, UsTwo, is when "the sacrifice of a nation" really <i>is</i> nothing more than "maiming for the good of the powerful." Pointing out when this is true is not disgusting. It is honest. __________________ "I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)." -- Thomas Paine

11-12-2003, 08:40 AM	#17 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	War is absolute hell. That is why I commend anyone who gets themselves within range of it. I don't care if you are Howard Zinn or Jessica Lynch. I thank all our veterans for serving their duty. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

11-12-2003, 04:43 PM	#19 (permalink)
reconmike Thank You Jesus Location: Twilight Zone	First of all this was a veterans day thread, how did it turn into an anti-war/ Zinn thread? quote: You say that as if it is relevant. And who are you? Some random person posting on an internet message board. I don't know you very well, but i trust his credentials over yours any day. I am sure I have seen more horrors of war first hand from my vantage point then Zinn has, but I digress. quote: Would you guys beat him up for claiming that some of you fought in unjust wars? Beat him up? Ofcourse not, but laugh him out of the place, sure. quote: Would you be questioning his credentials if you agreed with him? Besides, i didn't know you had to be infantry to have an opinion on veteran's affairs. Maybe you could go down to your vfw and rant your BS about the credibility bombadiers lack because they have no direct man to man combat experience. I already have been there with a copy of his little rant, and I recieved comments raging from, was he ever on the ground, in WW1 during treanch warfare thats how they fought and my favorite was.... wanna buy a french rifle nearly new, never been fired only dropped once. The wonderful Mr. Zinn will be at Rutgers here in Jersey in April next year, I am looking forward to attending and asking him some questions. Maybe even invite him down to my VFW which is only 2 miles away. __________________ Where is Darwin when ya need him?

11-12-2003, 06:02 PM	#22 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Aren't "Op Ed" pieces specifically meant to engender debate and a sense of controversy? I wonder if I quoted some of the claptrap transmitted on Fox News everynight would my post be welcomed in an equivalent manner? I think his piece was interesting, provocative and right on some points, wrong on others. In other words, it did exactly what it was meant to do. Back to "Remembrance Day"... Do you Americans traditionally pause of a minute's silence at 11am on Nov 11th? Mr Mephisto

11-12-2003, 08:52 PM	#24 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	Why the west? The war in the Pacific I presume? Mr Mephisto

11-16-2003, 06:16 PM	#31 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	NP It was an interesting thread whilst it lasted! Mr Mephisto