A Veterans Day reminder
 

Published in the Washington Times' Editorial Section, Nov 11 '03

It was true during the days of British Imperialism that the Crown's soldiers were viewed as "second-class citizens". They were expected, however, to protect the population from external threats with their lives if necessary. To some extent, these sentiments still can be found in America, especially in more "liberated" circles.

Thanks for the post this poem Peester,

It is a sad but true state of affairs in this country how vets are treated.

And to my fellow brothers and sisters of military service some do value the sacrifice we have made.

We can listen as the D.J. plays "America The Beautiful", or "God Bless America", on the radio today, and feel all warm and fuzzy as though we've done some sort of patriotic duty...as veterans wait months to see a V.A. doctor, or sit in homeless shelters.

I enjoyed that poem <i><b>Peetster</i></b>, but I can see that not a whole lot has changed after all these years. But, I suppose that I should be grateful that at least this one day has been set aside to honor the vets.

<i>*edit*</i>I do note, as I type this, that after 21 "views" the only responses are from vets. Eh, I'm sure that'll change shortly.

My Dad signed up for duty underage only to be sent to Darwin after the first wave of Japanese bombers had tried to take My Country away from the simple folk that set the standard.
He came back with issues but I will never forget the struggles that continue to plague us.
Keeping the peace after that makes the most impact.
There is nothing wrong with expressing feelings especially the need to talk about and feel proud about Vets.

I always think of this on veteran's day.


http://zoysia.uml.edu/archives/peace/0348.html
This op-ed got him fired from the globe. Funny, that they'd fire a veteran for expressing his views on veteran's day. Nowadays it seems that many people think that veterans fought so we could have a day off from school or work.

Glad he was fired. He should have been :)

''

grrr....


Good article filtherton. Militarism takes many disguises, but this one is pretty obvious. What is the point of remembering the sacirfice made by soliders if it is only used to support the ones responsible for the wars in the first place? We honour our soliders in Norway too, but the point is never to support militarist paradigms, rather to remember the madness and evil of war.

Why?

Sorry but lets not over generalize here. I'm glad that dolt was fired, since I rather doubt the population of England was fighting for the wealth and power of the few.

There are times you need to defend yourself from the aggressive nature of others and yes that can be glorious. War brings out the best and worst in men, it is the greatest trail there is, and to belittle the sacrifice of a nation as nothing but a maiming for the good of the powerful is disgusting.

War is as much a part of human nature as sex, you can't wish it away.

It's sad that we have to designate one day as a day to remember those who fought and died for our freedom. I'm going to snatch a saying from the tree huggers and say, "Veteran's Day is every day!"

Howard Zinn is a jackass, just another kissie kissie tree hugging professor.

I am also glad he was shit-canned for his drivel, I would love for him to come down to my local VFW and rant his BS.

I did a little research on the esteemed Mr Zinn, and he was a bombardier in the air force.

I havent been able to find if he was EVER on the ground in combat or just dropping bombs killing indiscriminatly,
he talks like an expert on the subject when his "combat"
job entailed opening airplane bomb doors.

He might have been on the push button side of the war, and he might now be a dirt loving hippie, but being in a bomber wasn't safe or fun.

I didnt say it was safe or fun, and I have seen how much flak a bomber will take.
But I am still searching as to where he flew and how many sorties.

*I decided a personal attack would work here. It didn't*

Thanks filtherton. I hadn't read that before.

What is disgusting, UsTwo, is when "the sacrifice of a nation" really <i>is</i> nothing more than "maiming for the good of the powerful."

Pointing out when this is true is not disgusting.

It is honest.

War is absolute hell. That is why I commend anyone who gets themselves within range of it. I don't care if you are Howard Zinn or Jessica Lynch. I thank all our veterans for serving their duty.

You make it sound as if war is inevitable. "Human nature" is a silly way to define it, it implies that we have no choice in the matter. It makes it sound like a world without war couldn't exist with humans in control. Maybe that is how you feel. Say what you want about the heroic deeds of soldiers, but right now i think that war is always the result of greed and selfishness.

And i think zinn is right in claiming that most wars are/were unjust and for the benefit of the people in power. For every "war against fascism" there is at least one or two vietnams. Why should he be fired for pointing that out?

You say that as if it is relevant.
And who are you? Some random person posting on an internet message board. I don't know you very well, but i trust his credentials over yours any day.


Would you guys beat him up for claiming that some of you fought in unjust wars?

Would you be questioning his credentials if you agreed with him? Besides, i didn't know you had to be infantry to have an opinion on veteran's affairs. Maybe you could go down to your vfw and rant your BS about the credibility bombadiers lack because they have no direct man to man combat experience.

First of all this was a veterans day thread, how did it turn into an anti-war/ Zinn thread?

quote:
You say that as if it is relevant.
And who are you? Some random person posting on an internet message board. I don't know you very well, but i trust his credentials over yours any day.

I am sure I have seen more horrors of war first hand from my vantage point then Zinn has, but I digress.

quote:
Would you guys beat him up for claiming that some of you fought in unjust wars?

Beat him up? Ofcourse not, but laugh him out of the place, sure.

quote:
Would you be questioning his credentials if you agreed with him? Besides, i didn't know you had to be infantry to have an opinion on veteran's affairs. Maybe you could go down to your vfw and rant your BS about the credibility bombadiers lack because they have no direct man to man combat experience.

I already have been there with a copy of his little rant,
and I recieved comments raging from,

was he ever on the ground,

in WW1 during treanch warfare thats how they fought

and my favorite was.... wanna buy a french rifle nearly new, never been fired only dropped once.

The wonderful Mr. Zinn will be at Rutgers here in Jersey in April next year, I am looking forward to attending and asking him some questions.
Maybe even invite him down to my VFW which is only 2 miles away.

Well, for starters WWI was touted as a war to protect small nations and in support of self determination. It wasn't. It was mostly due to treaty obligations, a naval arms race and an enormous amount of arrogance and pomposity in the political and military leadership circles of the main protaganists.

I recommend you read some of the following books for a more detailed insight into this conflict.

The Guns of August by Barbara W Tuchman
1914 by Lyn Macdonald
1915 - the death of innocence by Lyn Macdonald
Dreadnought - Britian, Germany and the coming of the Great War by Robert K Massie
The Arming of Europe and the Making of the First World War by David G Herrmann
The Lions of July - Prelude to War, 1914 by William Jannen Jr
The Pity of War by Niall Ferguson
The Peacemakers by Margaret Macmillan
First World War by Martin Gilbert

And yes, I have read them all. I think you'll find that such simplistic sweeping generalizations are no more appropriate to examining WWI, than saying something like "America is a war-mongerer".

Also, for the record, 40,000 Irishmen died during WWI. Many of them brave Ulster protestants massacred during the Somme, but many more Irish nationalists who signed up under the mistaken promise that supporting the British Crown would result in Irish independence. Obviously it did not, and the Irish War of Independence then broke out around 1919-1922.

Mr Mephisto

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.

Zinn is not a moron or a tree-hugger, he is a dreamer. He wants the end of war, and that is noble. It is also about as likely as me giving birth to bull. War is not a part of human nature, it is a part of the human condition. That will never change. The minute we all throw down our guns, strap on our sandals and start singing "Kumbayah", someone will pick up his gun and take advantage of the situation. Wash, rinse, repeat.

It is a strange situation find ourselves in. We must constantly work for peace with the full knowlege that we will never achieve it. Exit Sisiphus stage left.

That being said, I wish to thank, from the bottom of my heart, all the veterans who have served before me. Mighty big boots to fill guys...

And I leave you with a quote:

Aren't "Op Ed" pieces specifically meant to engender debate and a sense of controversy?

I wonder if I quoted some of the claptrap transmitted on Fox News everynight would my post be welcomed in an equivalent manner?

I think his piece was interesting, provocative and right on some points, wrong on others. In other words, it did exactly what it was meant to do.

Back to "Remembrance Day"...

Do you Americans traditionally pause of a minute's silence at 11am on Nov 11th?

Mr Mephisto

Yes, we face to the West as well.

Why the west? The war in the Pacific I presume?

Mr Mephisto

I suggest that there is some difference between the typical OpEd piece and a quote from noted poet Rudyard Kippling.

I remember, as a young child, in the late sixties, doing this. I was from a small town in southwestern Pennslvania where tradition still ran strong. Sadly, I don't think that we Americans do this any longer, even in the remotest of regions, to the best of my knowledge.

Veterans day has become about "White Sales" at J.C Penney's.

I was at Arlington National Cemetery for Veteran's Day 2002. It was raining, windy, miserable- and one of the prouder moments in my young life.

Sadly, I fear that there are few who would understand the meaning behind the words that you have written. I do.

*Stands back, comes to the position of attention and renders Sparhawk the proper hand salute*

What?

I was not referring to the poem at all.

Mr Mephisto

I lost track of what was being refered to as "Claptrap". Sorry.

NP

It was an interesting thread whilst it lasted!

Mr Mephisto