Comatose Woman's Parents Hope for Legal Help
 

I want the opinion of the politics board on this issue. All I can say is that if I'm in a vegetative state with no real hope of leading a normal life, I want the plug pulled ... and you TFP'ers better help me. I don't give a flying fuck what anyone wants to do for me, I'll take my chances with the hereafter. In addition, any society that allows people to go on with no hope of recovery is screwed up. You wouldn't let your dog live like that. Her parent's forced her to live staring at the ceiling for 10 years and want her to spend more time that way. May they suffer what they brought upon her.

I don't know all the medical facts, but it sounds like her doctors think that what the parents are clinging to - that she's making sounds and motions - are just reflexive actions and don't indicate that she has any chance in hell of coming out of the vegetative state. I sympathize with them, but sometimes you have to be strong enough to just let someone go. What kind of life would she want? It's sad, but I think they ought to let her go.

P.S. Everyone should have a living will.

This is the reason I have a living will....if I ever get into that situation, let me die.

Watch the Video of her, she moves her eyes to stimuli, she is hardly a vegtable. So starving to death is not justified.

Where's this video?

If she's capable of responding (tracked down some video with google) why don't they ask her what her wishes are? Is she capable of, for instance, blinking once for yes and twice for no?

<a href="http://host85.ipowerweb.com/~friendso/vid.html">http://host85.ipowerweb.com/~friendso/vid.html</a>

Yeah, I saw the video, if that's all my life is, kill me.

Same here.
I'd much rather be dead.

Then write it down, she didnt.

Good advice - everyone should have a living will. If you don't some do-gooder or some extreme legalistic organization can tie things up for years - just like this case.

The starving to death brings us to another dilemma. Why can't we just give the terminally ill a shot to let them pass. Damn, we are brutal to our own kind.

If I got a chance of comming back I sure as hell want to take it.

Either she is a veggie and it doesn't MATTER if she lives or dies, OR she isn't and has a chance of comming out of it.

Too bad she is responsive and is not a veggie. But dont let that fact enter into it.

reacting to stimuli is one thing. I don't think following movement is all that important. Cognitive ability is. What in that realm has she shown FEL?

If any, than yeah maybe she should live. But if she hasn't shown any true awarness and intelligence then she should be euthanized.

But not starved, starving is cruel. She needs a shot.

I agree with LD and FEL. If you don't want this to happen to you, have a living will. Do you really expect your parents or someone who loves you to "do the right thing"? No, they are going to try to save you in any way possible.

My mother ended up having to remove both of her parents from life support. Her father had a stroke followed by a heart attack. Her mother had a massive heart attack. Neither really had any real hope of recovering. She "did the right thing." I'd expect anyone else in my family to respect me enough to let me die with dignity.

Data I've not seen in the media on this issue; Is there or is there not brain activity corresponding to any cognitive abilitiy? Such information would crucial to making an informed decision.

A plant reponds to stimulus, doesn't mean it's thinking.

2Wolves

There is a side story to this.
There are people who suspect that her husband is the one responsible for her being choked until her brain was damaged.
He is her guardian, he is the one asking to have her feeding tube removed, and he is the one who will get a very large life insurance settlement when she dies.
Her parent want to be able to hand feed her but he is refusing even that or to let them get close to her.
It's all kind of suspicious.

This is exactly right; the husband has another "wife" in waiting. He is looking for some cash. There are doctors that think she has a chance to come out of this if they give her time. He is afraid of that and wants her gone.

Fuck him.

We don't know for a fact that he choked her. Did he have a history of abuse?

And the new wife in the wing thing.... It's been 13 years. There are few people who can remain faithful to a vegetable for that long. He needed to move on with his life.

If he got engaged 2 or 3 months after the accident, yeah there would be something there, but it was many years.

And there are many doctors who agree that she should be allowed to die. More than think she can pull out of it. If there wasn't the removal from feeding tubes wouldn't have been possible.

Well now. I had some opinions nicely formatted in my own little brain. Until, that is, I read further down the thread. WTF is going on here?! Are there no criteria for accurately measuring her "vegetative state"? After 10 years is there really any chance of Terri coming "out of it"? What are Michael Schiavo's real motives? Can we, as a society, really just let her simply starve to death? Argh...too many questions.

First of all, allow Michael to simply walk away. Let him walk away, and get on with his life with his "other woman", with whom he has a child. But, and this is a mighty big but,....no life insurance payouts. He's done, he's clean, he's finished with it. Then his true motives will surface.

Next off, I don't know that Terri's parents are the best choice for her guardianship, either. It's a little hard for them to look on this objectively. It's not that I think that a lack of objectivety on their part is necesarily a bad thing...I just don't think that it's in Terri's best interest, at this point.

It all looks a little sketchy to me. There's only one thing that I do know for certain, and that's that I am going to call my attorney first thing next week and have a Living Will drawn up. Oh, and then hope to hell nothing happens to me over the weekend. But, if it should, for the love of whatever god(s) you pray to, don't let 'em stick me on some machine to languish for a decade, and then starve me!!!

According to her Mom & Dad. From the reports I've seen no one else is bringing up the "He choked her" story except individuals tied to Mom & Dad.

Are Mom & Dad having a Munchhausen(sp?) Syndrome moment?

2Wolves

From what I understand what money there is in insurance was used up by medical bills a long time ago. Medical experts have been telling the parents for years that she is nothing more than a vegetable but they insist differently - I think if I were the husband, under these circumstances, I'd go to court and let them take back legal responsibility for her and her medical bills and see if they still feel the way they are acting like they do now. I bet you'd see a totally different reactiuon than the face they are showing on TV.

[[[poof]]]

Cruel and unusual punishment. If half of what I've read and heard about this situation is true, cruel and unusal punishment I would wish for Michaell Schiavo. I could buy his "I'm carrying out her wishes" bit if he hadn't taken the effort to obtain funds intended for her care. At what point did he remember her wishes? He sued to get those funds. Michael Schiavo began withholding nutrition and hydration shortly after winning $1.2 million on her behalf in a medical malpractice lawsuit. If he doesn't want to be burdened by his marital oath, hey, that's his business. Get involved with someone else. Have some kids. Go ahead and divorce your wife first though, would you. Makes anything you got to say about who possibly gets better to comunicate what alot more believable. I smell a skunk and the wind is blowing from his direction. The Florida House made a move to give the Jebbster power to feed Terri. Expect the Senate to approve it and put it on the Guv's desk toot suite. If you have a preference to live or die, make it known now. You can still alter that document and change your mind at a later date if you want. Do your part to keep the courts out of your business please.

This is my understanding from the media, as well. I think the same (footing the bill) should apply if Jeb steps in.

Holy Fuck... will you let this woman die in peace already.

Starving to death is not dying in peace.

Maybe not for you or me, but what about a vegetable?

You know for a fact that she doesnt feel pain? He moves her eyes to stimulus, and no one was able to post if she has any brain activity. If anyone can post that she is brain dead, then, well, she is still being starved to death.

I read that half of her brain has turned to luquid, and there is no way she will ever recover. People in the Flordia senate are using her for political gain. The only problem is, their stated beliefs are that the husband should make decisions in these types of cases. The congressmen go on and on about the sanctity of marriage until it doesn't suit them. The politicians don't care about her life.

After 10 years there is no reasonable possibility of her coming out of it. Its a vegitative state, not a coma. A coma can be recovered from, vegitative means your brain doesn't work.

I believe in Euthanasia but when the family agrees. But the parents want her to live, and the husband is questionable. Had she a living will, and a more merciful way for her to die, I would be all for it. But not one person showed that she is brain dead, and her actions show that she is not, and her own parents want her to live, then keep her alive. The husband stands to gain nothing or loose nothing if she remains alive, where she is in no pain, why does he want her to starve, horribly to death? He is very questionable.

PARTS OF HER BRAIN HAVE LIQUIFIED!!!!
THEY ARE LIQUID! Look in your coffee cup in the morning and try to picture its contents somehow magically turning into functional brain matter. The odds that your coffee is going to somehow magically start thinking for itself are about the same as the odds that this woman is going to make any kind of recovery. I'm sorry, but what kind of people want to prolong the life of a person who is only alive technically? According to every doctor i've heard speak on this subject there is no hope for this woman.
If you believe in a soul, for god's sake let her's move on.

I heard a story on NPR last night about this. Those videos that the parents have been publicizing are highly misleading. What the doctors said was that even though she might look like she's responding, the brain activity (or lack of it) shows that she's not processing anything. Her brainstem (the part that keeps you breathing and your heart beating) is still alive, but all the higher functioning areas of the brain - the parts that process emotion, ideas, thoughts, memory, the parts that make up your personality - are basically soup. There's no way she could learn to feed herself, because there's no way she can learn anything.

And Jeb Bush really crossed the line. This is a high profile, high publicity case, and the injunction is going to be overturned in court. I wouldn't want some damn politician having say over whether I live or die just because it'll help his poll numbers.

I feel so badly for the parents, but they need to face reality and let her go. They're hanging on to her for their own sake, and not for hers. She's been gone for a long time, and it sounds like they're just seeing what they want to see.

So what. Its their child. Are you so cavalier about human life that you just tell them 'its for the best' and pull the plug?

I personally don't think shes ever coming out of it but starving someone to death is NOT an acceptable answer. Either the law should allow euthanasia or not, but trying to 'back door' it by forced starvation is barbaric.

I have to agree with this. I just can't see letting someone starve to death. We wouldn't do this to our pets, why do it to our peers?

I agree that forced starvation is not the best answer - euthanasia would be kinder. But until they legalize euthanasia, we should keep this poor woman's soul tethered to her useless body because it makes the parents feel better? The parents aren't just objecting to the method of death, they're laboring under the delusion that this woman communicates and could be taught to take care of herself. Fine - give them the chance to be proven wrong. But if it turns out that she IS in fact a vegetable and can't learn anything, as almost all of the doctors not paid by the parents have said, it seems to me that starvation would be a far kinder fate than lingering for the rest of your life in a vegetative state. Her higher order brain functions are gone. She will experience physical discomfort but won't suffer - the part of the brain that interprets stimuli as "suffering" on an emotional level is gone. (To be fair, she's not suffering now, either, for the exact same reason.) None of this would be an issue if legislators would quit being so bullheaded and legalize euthanasia for cases like this.

I'm by no means cavalier about human life, but there's a difference between being physically alive and being ALIVE, and I think you have to ask what this woman would have wanted, not what her parents want. If she didn't have a living will, it's basically a matter of what the husband says she would have wanted vs. what the parents want.

My brother was hit by a car in April. He was in a coma for two weeks, and during those two weeks we had to think not just about what would happen if he came around - all the rehabilitation and pain and recuperation - but what Josh would want if he just...lingered. What kind of life would he be able to have? Would it be a life worth having? At the end, as his body systems shut down one by one and he "coded" we had to make the decision to tell them to stop working on him and let him go, or keep him on life support. I love my brother fiercely, and we understood each other on a level that few people do. And I knew that he would rather die than live crippled, let alone brain damaged as he would be after his body crashed, and he would smack me up in the next life if I let him be hooked to machines for the rest of his life. I want my brother back more than anything in the world. If he had lived I would have done anything to take care of him - quit my job, move to LA, push him around the skate park every day in a wheelchair, anything. But that's what I want. Not what he would want. And I have to respect his wishes, no matter how painful it is for me or the rest of my family. I was the one who told them to stop, because my mom just couldn't do it. I was the one who held his hand while he died.

So am I "so cavalier about human life"? I would have to say no. But there are some things that are more important than just keeping someone alive.

Why is it any more barbaric than any other death? She'll most likely die of dehydration before she starves. When you die from dehydration you just fall asleep and never wake up. How is that barbaric?
The point of removing someone from life support is to let them die from whatever is killing them. Being removed from a respirator means you get to suffocate, that may seem barbaric, but it is also fairly common. It is certainly not the worst way to go. I think it is way more barbaric, borderline torture, to keep someone alive, just barely, for your own selfish reasons.

lurkette, this being so close to your experience you are uniquely qualified to make an honest assesment. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks, JBX, but I don't pretend to understand what this woman's parents are going through. It's their daughter, and I can understand how they'd want to hope against hope that she could come back. None of us knows all of the story, but from what I've heard her cerebral cortex is just...gone. There's no recovery from that, and if it's true, then the parents are just deluded, and it would be kinder to just let her go. Everything they've seen, that I've read about, that they're interpreting as trying to communicate sounds like reflexes that they're just interpreting as what they want to see.

But to really cover all the bases, it seems like what might be best is to have a third party, or maybe a panel of medical specialists who aren't paid for by the parents or the husband or the special interest groups, make an unbiased assessment of her case and see if she does have any chance at recovery. I thought that's what the judge was supposed to do, but apparently that's not good enough for the Florida legislature. :rolleyes: There's SO much spin being put on this thing by right-to-life and right-to-die and disabled rights advocates that it's hard to judge from the outside. But having been there with my brother, I know how tempting it is to hold onto hope that somehow this person you love could come back to you as they were before. But from what I've heard, it's just not gonna happen in this case.

It's sad the this woman who hasn't done anything wrong will most likely starve to death or something equally worse while some bastard who's on death row will get a painless injection for the sake of humane treatment. free country indeed...

I feel bad for the poor girl. After 10 years I would (personally) hope someone pulled the plug... lurkette: your story was touching, thank you for sharing.

I'm bumping the Schiavo case discussion since today is the day her feeding tube is supposed to be removed. The federal government is now getting involved:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7212079/
--------------------
GOP leaders step in to keep Schiavo alive
House subpoenas planned to halt removal of her feeding tube
Chris O'meara / AP

MSNBC staff and news service reports
Updated: 9:15 a.m. ET March 18, 2005

WASHINGTON - Working against the clock, House Republican leaders tried to prevent doctors in Florida from removing the feeding tube Friday from Terri Schiavo, a brain-damaged woman at the center of a battle between her husband and her parents.

“This inquiry should give hope to Terri, her parents and friends and the millions of people throughout the world who are praying for her safety,” House Speaker Dennis Hastert, Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Government Reform Committee chairman Tom Davis said in a joint statement issued overnight. “This fight is not over.”

In a two-pronged approach, the House committee was issuing congressional subpoenas to stop doctors from disconnecting the tube, saying the case is part of Congress' look at federal health care policy.

Separately, an attorney for Schiavo's parents will ask a federal judge in Tampa to block the removal and review the actions of state courts. Such habeas corpus appeals seek to require the government to justify its actions.

“We are going to ask him to issue a stay because in this case, state action would be used to end the life of an innocent, disabled woman,” said the attorney, David Gibbs.

Protesters expected
Police in Pinellas Park, Fla., meanwhile, readied for the hundreds of protesters expected to show up outside Schiavo’s hospice as the hours slipped away before the scheduled 1 p.m. ET removal of her feeding tube.

The legislative effort came after lawmakers in both Washington and Tallahassee failed in attempts to pass legislation to keep her husband, Michael Schiavo, from having the tube pulled despite heavy lobbying by Schiavo’s parents.

The Florida House on Thursday passed a bill 78-37 to block the withholding of food and water from patients in a persistent vegetative state who did not leave specific instructions regarding their care. But hours later, the state Senate defeated a different measure 21-16, and one of the nine Republicans voting against indicated that any further votes would be futile.

In a last-ditch attempt to stop the court-ordered removal, the U.S. House Government Reform Committee decided early Friday to start an investigation into Schiavo’s case.

In their statement, the Republican leaders said the subpoenas will "require hospice administrators and attending physicians to preserve nutrition and hydration for Terri Schiavo to allow Congress to fully understand the procedures and practices that are keeping her alive."

The Senate will investigate as well, the statement said.

Health care justification
The Government Reform Committee — the same committee that forced Major League Baseball players and officials to testify Thursday about steroid use — justified the inquiry as a government priority.

The GOP leadership statement said the investigation would look "into the long term care of incapacitated adults, an issue of growing importance to the federal government and federal healthcare policy."

It was not immediately known when the subpoenas would be delivered to Schiavo’s hospice and doctors, or whether the Florida health care providers would recognize them. A possible penalty for not recognizing the subpoena is to be held in contempt of Congress, a GOP leadership aide said.

“Everything is a longshot,” said Gibbs, attorney for Schiavo’s parents, Bob and Mary Schindler.

Bush brothers 'in favor of life'
As part of the last-minute flurry of activity, the Florida judge who approved the withdrawal of food and water from Schiavo denied a request from the state to keep her alive. The state appealed that decision to the Florida Supreme Court, which promptly dismissed it. The U.S. Supreme Court also denied another appeal.

At the White House, President Bush left little doubt where he stands.

“The case of Terri Schiavo raises complex issues,” he said in a statement. “Yet in instances like this one, where there are serious questions and substantial doubts, our society, our laws and our courts should have a presumption in favor of life. Those who live at the mercy of others deserve our special care and concern.”

His brother, Gov. Jeb Bush, long has supported the parents’ efforts and urged lawmakers to act before it was too late.

The president on Friday left for Florida for a previously scheduled visit to talk about his Social Security reform ideas.

Background to the case
Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped because of a chemical imbalance, and court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, says she told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, and say she could get better.

The court found that it was Terri Schiavo’s wish not to kept alive in her current state and issued an order to remove the feeding tube Friday. Michael Schiavo’s attorney, George Felos, wouldn’t comment on when and how the removal will take place or whether Michael Schiavo would visit his wife before it happened.

Doctors have said it could take a week or two for Terri Schiavo to die once the tube that delivers water and nutrients is removed.
----------------

This just bugs the hell out of me. Why is the government getting involved? Because this is an emotional case with well-connected litigants. They have no business interfering. Florida courts have found several times that 1. there's NO hope for recovery, and 2. there's clear and compelling evidence that she would have wanted to be removed from life support if there was no hope for recovery.

The parents say there's cognitive activity - it's wishful thinking. She looks blissed out because she has NO FUCKING CEREBRUM! She responds the same way to her parents as she does to a mylar balloon - reflexively. You can't just regrow a cerebrum. The therapies that the Schindlers' doctors are suggesting have been widely disproven, and there's nothing on the horizon that could even hope to bring her back from a persistent vegetative state.

A lot of disabled people are protesting, saying "doctors claimed I'd never be able to put two words together, and look at me now!" Sure, medical science does not always get the prognosis right; but there's a difference between the brain rewiring itself to get around damage, and regrowing an essential part of the brain that's been missing for a decade. You can't generalize from anecdotal accounts of recovery.

At what point does "respect for life" become the willful torture of a human being to make us comfortable about our notions of life, death, hope, recovery, etc? Just because someone really, really wants to believe that recovery is possible doesn't make it so. And Congress can intervene all it wants, but that's not going to help this woman - it's only going to prolong her non-being.

Part of me says it doesn't really matter - it's not like she's suffering. But there's a consciousness that's essentially trapped in a completely useless body and mind. Let the poor woman go.

If it were as clear cut as that, then you would get no argument from most conservatives. However, there are medical opinions on both sides of the issue. Would it not be best to side twith the presumption of life?

Clear and compelling? Her husband's word does not constitute clear and compelling. Sorry.


BTW, y'all know that Hitler began his murdering by killing the handicapped for both their own good and the country's good.

Did you miss the part where she has no solid conscious brain matter left?

For over 4 years now judges have reviewed medical evidence and testimony and none of them have agreed that Schiavo is not in a persistent vegetative state. I'm sure I could pay a doctor to claim she is really a man, but that medical opinion isn't going to hold up in the face of a ton of other medical opinions stating she is a woman.
It actually has to go the other way here. The husband is the legal guardian. He is legally bound to follow what he believes is the wish of his wife. You need clear and compelling evidence that his word (and the word of his brother and sister in law), stating that Terry made it clear she would not want to be kept alive in this state, is wrong.

For over 4 years, legal battles have been fought almost exclusively based on suspicion of the husband. In that time, accusations have been made but ultimately there is no evidence that the husband is not doing what he believes is the wish of his wife. Suspicion lacking any evidence should have long ago been dismissed as a reason to prevent him from doing what he is legally bound to do.

Because people want to 'err on the side of life' with their emotions we now have set precedent where the government can usurp a spouses responsibility over the quality of life wish from their wife/husband. Thanks alot for violating the sacrament of marriage with your emotions.

Terri Schiavo Can Still be Rehabilitated, Nobel Prize-Nominated Doctor Says

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by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
March 7, 2005

Clearwater, FL (LifeNews.com) -- Despite the contention of Terri Schiavo's estranged husband Michael and courts that have allowed him to starve her to death, a doctor nominated for the Nobel Prize says he believes medical therapies are still available that could help Terri party recover from her disabled state.

Dr. William Hammesfahr is an internationally recognized expert on cases of brain-injured patients. He has been identified in helping patients with chronic brain injuries from many causes actually leave long term disability, and return to work.

Terri Schiavo's injury, hypoxic encephalopathy, is a type of stroke that he treats every day with success.

"We, and others I know, have treated many patients worse than Terri and have seen them regain independence and dignity," Hammesfahr said.

"There are many approaches that would help Terri Schiavo," Dr. Hammesfahr explained. "I know, because I had the opportunity to personally examine her, her medical records, and her X-rays."

"It is time to help Terri, instead of just warehousing her," he added. "She would have benefited from treatment years ago, but it is not too late to start now."

This isn't the first time Hammesfahr has discussed Terri's plight.

Last year, he explained that, after examining Terri, he believed that she could eventually eat and drink on her own. He also said he believes Terri would be able to talk and have good use of one arm and one hand should be given proper rehabilitative treatment.

Hammesfahr also said he thought Terri would eventually be able to transfer herself from a wheelchair to a bed.

"The patient is not in a coma," concluded Hammesfahr said after observing Terri. "She responds to specific people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal praise."

He says Terri's eyes clearly fixate on her family and she tries to follow the simple commands her parents give her.
"She looks at you, she can follow commands," Hammesfahr said.

Dr. Hammesfahr was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology in 1999.

So here's where y'all stand:

You hold vigils outside of the Central Prison for coldblooded killers waiting to be executed, croc tears and all, but are silent when a women is about to be starved to death.

Good luck explaining that one to your God.

1. None of the medical experts who have reviewed Schiavo's case debate that she is in a persistent vegetative state (PVS) - the only disagreement is whether she could eventually learn to swallow on her own. That is what "recovery" means in this case - not that she would ever have cognitive function or consciousness, but whether she could be rehabilitated to the point where she could SWALLOW. What the fuck kind of life is that?!? And all of the medical experts who have been called in by people OTHER than the parents have agreed that even this small level of recovery is basically impossible.

2. The husband's words were not the only words considered by the court - they listened to testimony from dozens of her friends and acquaintances, after which they (the court) found "clear and compelling" evidence (which is actually a pretty high legal standard) that she would not want to be kept in a PVS.

Further, the husband is not "advocating" for anything - he has turned over guardianship of her to the courts and left it up to them to decide; this matter is not really between the parents and the husband, as it has been framed, but between the parents and the courts, who have found over and over and over and over AND OVER that the woman is not coming back and that she would not want to "live" like this.

Please understand that this is not about disability - it's not like she's a quadriplegic, or has Down's Syndrome, or has localized brain damage that renders her incapable of communicating. THE PART OF YOUR BRAIN THAT MAKES YOU HUMAN IS GONE!

http://biology.about.com/library/org...blcerebrum.htm
Cerebrum

Function:

* Determines Intelligence

* Personality

* Interpretation of Sensory Impulses

* Motor Function

* Planning and Organization

* Touch Sensation

Do you want to see how much of the brain the cerebrum makes up?
[img]http://eduweb.brandonu.ca/~science/diagrams/cerebrum_1.gif[img]

Educate yourself before you go comparing me to Hitler.

She has asked not to be given life prolonging treatment.

If a criminal serving a life sentence asked to be killed, I'd have no issue with that.

But thanks for telling me "where I stand".

You shouldn't presume to know where people stand. It can only make you look foolish.

And this is a prime example of my statement above. You lump me in with a group of people that denounce the death penalty because I side with spousal responsibility. Not very logical of you.


And those who have no problem explaining away collateral damage in the form of civilian deaths during war should have no problem explaining to god how they were comfortable with it happening? Good luck explaining that one also.

None of the expert cited by her husband. Let's be clear here.


Wow, what a guy. The parents have repeatedly asked for him to turn over guardianship to them. But instead, he turns it over to a colorless entity.

Why not turn het over to her parents care? Oh, that's right. Then the money awarded to him from the malpractice suit will not be his. And of course her life insurance policy money will have to be on hold before it reaches his account.


.

Perhaps you should educate yourself in history. I didn't call you Hitler, I was just making the point that the murder of millions of people began under a regime that would have sided with your argument in this case.

Not only is there no money left having been spent on medical treatment and the defense of her legal right, but he turned down a $1 million payment to walk away. So again, these "suspicions" concerning the husband are entirely baseless.

Oh that's such a huge distinction, and so very relevant. Thank you for clarifying :rolleyes:

The husband turned down more money than he would have received in life insurance. Is it beyond comprehension that he would be genuinely fighting for what he believes are his wife's wishes, and not for material gain?

The evidence on that is murky at best, and you know it

You're siding with death. Spousal responsibilty just provides a convient cover.

So am I incorrect with where you stand on the issues?

Didn't think so

No. It is not even remotely murky. And you should know it, but you just up and decided that you didn't want to believe it.

I love that line. Just because it shows the slant so well.

NCB. Let her go to God. Why make her sit in a sensory free prison like that for over a decade? You deserve a kick in the ass by her one day when you two meet.

Michael didn't turn over control to her parents because they want only one thing, to keep her breathing. He moved it to the court becuase they have no preconceived decision made.

BTW, I never have been to a prison vigil.

The history is what it is. You probably didn't know that Hitler began by killing off the handicaped in the name of humanity (and country too). When you understand that, and look at how this case is going, does it not at least give you pause? I'm not saying that it's an opinion altering fact, but it should at least send a chill down your spine.


Anyways, it looks as if she'll be starved begining today. Time to celebrate a victory in the name of compassion I reckon'

I'll take my chances. But I would like to be a fly on the walls of Heavan when her and hubby meet.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...e/11104326.htm
The bastard is probably just holding out for more money.
http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/.../0-picture.gif
One BILLION Dollars!

hmmm, simple excuse for you. you're one of the 'life at all costs' person, right? I noticed that you didn't touch on the last portion of my first reply to you though.



then you shouldn't think so much. FYI, I have a spouse with a potentially fatal condition. I've already steeled myself for the difficult decision I may have to make but I hope it never comes about. You presume too much based on emotions when you couldn't possibly fathom the enormous responsibility that comes with the decision being made.

You ARE incorrect on where I stand on this issue. You can obfuscate all you like, it still comes down to the spousal responsibility to fulfill the last request. It's not about siding with life or death no matter how much you try to make it that.

and would you kick yourself in the ass if you saw her thank him for it?

Im not going to debate anybody on this...Im only giving my opinion here.....rush to death? Its been 15 years.....her parents need to let her go

Ooh isn't this rich.
 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/sc...ged/index.html
Congress has supoenaed a vegetable.
Yeah.....

Congressman Delay: Thank you for coming Mrs. Schiavo. Please, in your own words, tell us all about your plans for the future once we miraculously reverse the jello that is your conscious mind.

Schiavo: ....


If you're a fetus, conservatives raise hell to make sure you get born

if you're in a vegetative state or prolonged coma, conservatives raise hell to keep the machines pumping

If you have a horribly debilitating and painful condition that ensures you have a long and painful death, conservatives make sure we do all we can to make that death as long as possible.

For everyone else, we don't give a fuck about you. Once you're out of the womb and healthy, Lock and Load.

I cannot believe they are asking them to bring that poor woman up there....if they wanna see her so bad why dont they get their butts on a plane to florida?

jeezy creezy that is just fucking insane.

Likewise, this isn't a debate I care to enter. However, I do have a living will (that my wife could legally override). I have also left explicit instructions with my wife that I would not wish to be kept alive under similar circumstances. I couldn't care less if she shacked up with another guy under similar circumstances, but I'd never forgive her if she let me lay there for one year, let alone 15.

My parents are also as Catholic as it gets, I've explained to them that they do not get a vote. I expect that they would still disagree with my wife, but would not pursue it.

Yes,

I saw the recent development as well.

All I can say is that I think her parents care more for themselves than for her.

I sincerely doubt that a living would have made a difference to them.

Yes, I probably would. However, I prefer to err on the side of life, but that's just the primitive God fearing Catholic in me

I think that's a little too mean spirited. Since none of us (assuming, considering the odds) have never been in a position of having a child in this situation, perhaps it's best to reserve judgement on them. My heart breaks for them.

Don't you think she would have enjoyed being in heaven these last 13 years rather than be trapped in a decomposing mass of flesh?

You believe in an afterlife, so do most (if not all) of the people who want to keep her body alive. You know she will have a better existance there than here in a worthless mass. Why would you be so cruel?

Why do you want that woman to die so badly? Why the bloodlust?. Is she suffering? None of us know. Is she aware? None of really know. Did she want to die? None of us really know.

Look, no one wants her to suffer needlessly. However, if this is such a clear cut case, that's one thing (yes, Manx, I saw your statement on the "expert" . But I could find mine as well to say the opposite), but it's not. There is doubt here.

That said, I just prefer to err on the side of life. Call me what you will.

I don't *want* her to die. I support her husband who knew and loved her better than anyone else. His decision is enough for me to want to support.
He knows everything that went on in her life.

Because it is not up to man to decide when someone dies. God has given us tools to help prolong life here on Earth and we are to use them. When God wants her in heaven he will take her. Until then, man should do everything he can with the tools God has given so that she may continue to live, no matter what people may call the life she has. It is HER life and to some people they couldn't care less. Just because it isn't a normal life, since she lives in a hospital bed and has less brain function than a normal person, some people argue that she should die. And not just die, but starve to death.


--ps, about her enjoying the last 13 years in heaven...In the concept of eternity, 13 years is nothing.

13 years like that is an eternity here on earth.

BTW. God didn't give us those tools. We made them ourselves. Free will, ya know.

Just heard that a judge blocked the removal of the tube until later this month. Have;t seen it in print yet though.

I know my history quite well, thanks, and I also know that the systematic killing of handicapped people because of the assumption that they are inferior, and systematic eugenics programs that try to "breed" defects out of the population, are a far cry from attempting to carry out what the court has OBJECTIVELY deemed were a woman's wishes regarding her own life and death. It's a pretty clear distinction, and bringing up Hitler only clouds the issue. Perhaps that's the point?

I hope her parents are happy....and since they seem to think she'll live another 30 or 40 years as long as she has the tube....I hope they enjoy another 30-40 years of seeing her having to lie in a bed, accomplishing nothing, depending on other things and other people to keep her going, watching her not be able to do anything for herself, or communicate in any way, I hope it does their hearts good everytime they walk in that hospital room to know that once again they've been instrumental in keeping her in that vegetative state.

EXACTLY why her wishes to die in this circumstance should be respected. IT'S HER LIFE. Not her parents'.

Um, sorry, it's not just "less brain function" - it's essentially NO higher brain function. Her limbic system is intact, so she continues to breathe, her heart beats, and she can react reflexively to stimuli, but in all reality, she is no longer alive. It's not like a person who couldn't feed themselves but wanted to live...she can't WANT anything. The part of her brain that "wants" disappeared 13 years ago.

Let.
Her.
Go.

This poor woman is just a political football. It's a damn shame.
Judge blocks removal of feeding tube from Schiavo

But then again...
Header at the top of CNN.com
>
BREAKING NEWS

AP: Case judge reinstates order to remove Terri Schiavo's feeding tube. Details soon.

I have still yet to read her wishes to die in this situation.

Has anyone considerd the cost?

Who is paying for all her care?

The husband?

The parents?

The state (taxpayers)?

I'm just curious and wonder how much that plays into it.

If the parents are paying for all her costs, maybe Michael should just walk away and wash his hands of it.

Shame on the politicians for trying to milk it. That's just wrong. If the state is paying for it, then the people need to know. They may change their views when they find out money s being flushed down the toilet while everyone'e medicaid is being cut.

If the husband is expecting some kind of insurance pay off, then, that's messed up too. I would imagine it would go to the medical bills which would be enormous. Must be in the millions already if not tens of millions.

Anyone know or have info on this?

If the arguement is truly based on that logic then she should have died 15 years ago. It is man's intervention that allows her to live.

NCB: Thanks for invoking Goodwin's Law.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050318/D88TII400.html

Update. Looks the Mullahs have spoken and the party of death will get their wish. I pray that God takes her quickly.

Mullah's? Party of Death eh?

Don't worry. The American Taliban will do something to get a feeding tube shoved back down her throat to continue her agony.

as it should. It's not that I don't feel badly for them, I certainly do. Ask yourself, would you let your child live in a state where they could do nothing on their own, maybe not even eat, talk, communicate, even understand whats on TV?

stated by her husband. a relationship that has dealt with and been respected for centuries even with this issue.

blah blah blah, party of death crap.

God probably would have taken her quickly 7 years ago before her parents decided they knew better and pushed to have her brain dead body made into a shrine

No link, but just heard this on the news:

From Tom DeLay - "She is not being kept alive, she is alive...yada-yada-yada".

If she isn't being "kept alive", why would she die with the tube removed? What a maroon.

Also, they are saying no person has every recovered from a Persistent Vegetative State, ever. That doesn't leave much room for her chances now does it?

What is up with congress? We had the baseball bullshit waste-of-time yesterday and then we get this today.

I hope voters remember this waste of time and money come next election cycle, but they won't.

not with crappy opinion pieces like this one from peggy noonan.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/column.../?id=110006442

In America today all big stories have three dimensions: a legal angle, a public-relations angle and a political angle. In the Schiavo case some of our politicians seem not to be fully appreciating the second and third. This is odd.

Here's both a political and a public-relations reality: The Republican Party controls the Senate, the House and the White House. The Republicans are in charge. They have the power. If they can't save this woman's life, they will face a reckoning from a sizable portion of their own base. And they will of course deserve it.

This should concentrate their minds.

OK, a slight correction here.

The news is saying she is not comatose, she is in a PVS--so the headline for the thread is a tad misleading.

People have come out of comas, no one has ever come out of PVS.

Also, apparently how long it takes for her to die now that the feeding tube is removed is subjective--not right away, maybe a week, maybe two, they aren't really sure when and they aren't really sure "how" she will die.

Well, it looks like it's been done. According to the news (NPR - no link, live radio), the tube has been removed.

Hopefully, we've all been given pause for thought and will spark discussion with our loved ones about living wills, DNRs etc.

On another note, Congress is messed up and needs a reality check: I mean really, subpoena her to DC? What are they thinking? Same with the "steoids" questioning. That was hardball?

Oh, I guess there is a news link afterall - http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._damaged_woman

Voters have no memories of what is done at the start of a new term. All they know is what they are told by the commercials. Most people vote party line anyways.

congress' subpeona is nothing more than a federal attempt to subvert the florida courts.

well they do have to look out for those 'activist' judges...

Don't count your non-interfering Republicans before the hatch: The feeding tube has been removed atleast 1 time in the past, only to be replaced by a new "law" from Jeb Bush that was subsequently found to be unconstitutional.

And even when she is finally allowed to die, the Jeb Bush contingent will continue to try and eliminate our rights to end our lives when found in such a state.

Because, ya know, it's exactly like the death penalty. And Hitler.

I'd play it on the safe side and not proactively pull the feeding tube.

My limited understanding on an important part of this situation, is that from a point early on in the past 15 year issue - therapuetic treatment was denied Terri. Could it have been that with treatment, progress could have been made? Seems like both sides should be more willing to allow for some latitude ... why won't can't Judge Greer entertain more opinions form medical experts.

Also, I am not convinced of the husband's purity of intention here, even if there is little left of the settlement funding for him. Even if he said no to the million bucks. Strikes me as though he stuck into following through - he has no way out at this point.

I'm not a fan of dealing out the ultimate finality - death.

btw rock on NCB and Lurkette both!

You know... we would never agree to kill an 8 month old child, but if they are left alone they would not be capable of feeding themselves... but if we stopped feeding our 8 month old child, its a horrible horrible offense and considered criminal! It will be interesting to see the precedent this sets for euthanasia in this country. Its a snowball effect.... we just keep on cheapening the dignity of human life.