seretogis

Your argument, whittled down to one incredibly well thought-out remark. I don't see how any of us could have ever disagreed with you.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

apechild

I find it interesting.

So often we hear about a Palestinian who indiscriminately and brutally murders dozens of men, women, and children.

We then hear a proud proclamation of responsibility by a Palestinian group, and shortly thereafter we hear about Isreal arresting or killing members of that same group.

Then we hear about how neither side is doing enough for peace, that both are at fault, and the Israelis are just as guilty as Palestinians.

In case anyone has drifted off, let me reiterate:
Palestinian kills kids
Palestinian group gleefully boasts about killing kids
Israel defends
Observers condemn.

Moral relativism on such a scale is truly disturbing, people. Those who voted "Israel" in the above poll desparately need to acknowledge two basic moral truths: wanton, indiscriminate murder of civilians is wrong, self defense is right.

Got that?

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Skwerl. Its wuts fer dinner.

seretogis

Welcome to Politics, apechild.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

apechild

Hey, thanks for the warm welcome. Though I have to admit, I'm a bit discouraged by some of the remarks I've read here. There have been some really reckless comments made, and I feel that if someone makes a strong statement, such as Eple's "Those guys are a disgrace to the western world and to jews in general" he has a responsibility to support that statement with fact, reason, and sound logic.

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Skwerl. Its wuts fer dinner.

Ustwo

Something you will rarely see in politics.

Lebell

You can't have it both ways.

You can't condemn the Israelis for killing children (with sloppy targeting) while not condemning the Palestinians with intentional shooting and bombing of children.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Lebell

And THAT is why this is an internet chat board and not "Meet the Nation".

You will see the entire gambit of opinions from the informed to the uninformed, from the far left to the far right.

As long as you can keep it in that perspective, you can enjoy the conversation.

If you can't, then it is time to take a break from this forum.


Good luck!

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Astrocloud

Wow looks like Israel is "winning". Very interesting indeed.

I actually have dirt on Israel that nobody has brought up yet. This is really good dirt from an American-Jingoistic perspective (as if there is any other).

Israel is one of the US's "allies" that has been caught spying on the US. Here, whet your appetite with this cnn article:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/09/01/pollard/

kandayin

Self defense might be morally and legally right for you.
For me it's morally wrong and legally wrong as well, as in France, if you kill someone whether it was self defense or not is not relevant enough to get you acquitted, it may bring you circumstances but you can be sure that you'll be going to jail for a couple years. As far as the morally wrong goes, it's my opinion and i'm entitled to it, but I find that solutions that do not work are not morally right, and violent retaliation is obviously not a working solution, else the fight over there would have stopped a long time ago.
I may look very christian even though I'm atheistic but when someone hit you in the face show him the other cheeck is what is insuring my safety since years.

And on top of that, what they do is not self defence, it's retaliation.

Liquor Dealer

"I may look very christian even though I'm atheistic but when someone hit you in the face show him the other cheeck is what is insuring my safety since years.

And on top of that, what they do is not self defence, it's retaliation."

I hope that I live my life in a way that to some point follows Christian principles. BUT! If you hit me in the face you better have brought your lunch because one of us is in for an ass kicking, even if it takes all day. You can call it self-defense or you can call it retaliation, it makes no difference what you call it - it is what comes down when you choose to enter that space that is inside of the boundary established by the position of the tip of my nose. I hope my government goes about its business in the same manner. You fuck with the bull you get the horn.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Ustwo

Another reason to hate the French. They feel so guilty about being execution happy for so many centuries they go to the other extreme.

Mael

hell, if we invaded france, i'd sign up. how much fun would it be to march through the Arch du Triumph after their surrender monkey asses have been defeated. It's the only thing the Nazi's ever did that I thought wasn't evil. (edit: i mean that in a joking sorta way, not as a pro-nazi thing, just... eh, i think you get the drift?)

OFKU0

And remind me again who is morally correct and who isn't?

Aren't both sides murdering innocent civilians in the name of self defence? Perhaps the notion of self defence should be viewed through the eyes of those staring at a suicide bomber or Apache helicopters.

Terrorism is terrorism be it radical or state sponsored.

Got that?

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Ustwo

And people wonder why Israel is jumpy?

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Mojo_PeiPei

Palestinians don't murder in self defense. Look at groups like Al Aqsa and Hamas, you know the reason they aren't interested in peace??? Just like the rest of the Arab-Muslim world they DON'T WANT PEACE!!!! Their stated goal is the complete and total destruction of the state of Israel, you will never ever in a million years see peace aslong as the Arabs have that mentality. And if you say "But the Israeli's don't want peace either" you are a fool, Israel just wants to be left alone, thats all they've ever asked for until the whole ordeal got sooooo escalated, now they are neck deep in all this bullshit.

Also from the PM of Malaysia
Also
This could be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. Get fucking serious, if someone is trying to murder you in cold blood and you take them out first you are in the wrong? Seriously what kind of backwards Liberal Pinko bull shit is that???

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

OFKU0

Some would say also that the goal of the Isreali's is the complete and total destruction of Palestinians.

Unfortunately overgeneralizations from both sides seems to be the norm.There are proportionately as many Isreali's and Palestinians who want the other side rid of.

I would agree though that it would be foolish to say the Isreali's don't want peace.They do want peace.What they don't want is a Palestinian state no matter how many times they talk out of both sides of their mouths.

I don't think the Isreali's can comprehend the existence of a Palestinian state since then they would be side by side a country that would be within international law to protect itself from attacks from any other country including Isreal.

But if the Isreali's were smarter,they would happily have the country of Palestine next to them and the first suicide bomb in Isreal would be all the reason for a huge land grab.Anyone who thinks Isreal doesn't want to broaden its boarders is a fool.And the settlements are taking to long in the quest for more land.

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" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

westothemax

What about another civil war?

Astrocloud

There is no doubt in my mind that certain right-wing elements wanted a civil war during the Clinton era. It was all over conservative talk radio that I *AHEM* never listen to.

If you remember those black helicopters (piloted by none other than a combination of Clinton's body guards, the UN and Chinese spies) were really the first wave of gun-control enthusiasts starting a civil war over the second amendment and the abortion issue.

Of course the black helicopters disappeared as soon as Bush took office... I guess Bush 'figgerd' that a civil war wasn't to his liking. No, gotta save the ammo to finish his daddy's war in Iraq.


Oops, did I just say that? Well I guess I just don't see another civil war coming anytime soon. (Oh no, I hear them copters... better go get the shotgun.)

Ustwo

Yes, its quite obvious you don't listen to most things.

If you knew what you were talking about, you would know the Black Helicopter crowd was worried about Bush I, the new world order, and the UN, long before Clinton came onto the radar.

Or maybe we just had real problems with deal with and fringe nuts weren't getting press.

Astrocloud

Gee whiz, aren't you the little flamer today? Perhaps you'd like it better on my block list?

Lebell

Why don't we all calm down before some mod somewhere has to excercise modly powers?

Because that would truly suck.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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james t kirk

Wow,

There are as many votes to conquor Canada as North Korea.

Looks like Diefenbaker was right after all.

Ustwo

Heh sorry but politics does get me a bit worked up since it does affect me directly, unlike say sports.

When I see grossly uninformed people spouting off about which they know nothing it gets me a bit upset.

I do try to be nice

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

prosequence

Where the USA option ?

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And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

pocon1

I don't want to conquer any country, I just want to knock down all of the dictatorships and give the populace some real representation in their government. Most people are not necessarily evil, but they have limited ways to act out. But I do have to ask the people who voted against the U.S. Is that really what you want? Do you want to see our noses bloodied and our country torn down? I am asking you to answer honestly because even though I read a lot, and follow the news, I am still an American. I don't want your rants about how George Bush pisses you off, I just want to know if you really, truly, think the best thing for the world is for us to be crushed and sent home bloody. For instance, even though France has massive economic ties with Iraq, and that is why they blocked us at every turn in the U.N., I still do not believe that that is a good reason to go to war with them. Talk like that to me is foolish and nonsensical. France is a democracy and they can make their own decisions. On the other hand, if America had a change of leadership during the next election, and a more diplomatic president was elected, would you change your opinion of America?

thejoker130

I would much prefer ther NOT be another war thank you very much. Actually i think we should bomb texas...they have oil after all. Then we should declare war on domestic terrorists like the kkk and then the militia groups that harbor guys like Timothy Mcveigh.

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MrSmashy

Lawrence of Arabia was WWI.

MrSmashy

You're right. We hear about Palestinian extremists who have gained greater sympathy and support from the community as the situation escalates and other avenues of protest dissapear...which is the goal of the extremists who have been able to manipulate the situation to where the majority of Palestinians might let their sympathies drift toward extremist views due to lack of percieved options. Its like that recent poll said, most support suicide bombings but would also like both sides to move to peace if possible.

However, we don't tend to hear about the Israelis doing the same because they have a recognized state aparatus doing this. We don't hear about Israel's support of human right violating militias in Lebannon etc...because it makes them look bad. While I agree that Israel is a little more careful about trying to keep the civillian casualties down since they have a greater understanding of how to look good internationally than some dumbfuck Islamic psychos who have been able to use this last intifada to shore up support do, that doesn't mean that Israel doesn't torture etc...etc...often without good proof. Nor does it explain away collective punishment acts that are against the geneva convention (such as destroying the homes of suicide bombers etc...), economic discrimination and abuse, the movement of new settlers into land that was the west bank etc...etc...

Quote:

We then hear a proud proclamation of responsibility by a Palestinian group, and shortly thereafter we hear about Isreal arresting or killing members of that same group.

Well, who could be against that. Except for the fact that Israel has a bad habit of taking out innocents when they do and not caring....I mean after all they aren't Israelis.

Quote:

Then we hear about how neither side is doing enough for peace, that both are at fault, and the Israelis are just as guilty as Palestinians. In case anyone has drifted off, let me reiterate: Palestinian kills kids Palestinian group gleefully boasts about killing kids Israel defends Observers condemn.

Nothing personal, but whenever someone brings up killing kids or something else along those lines, it always seems to me to be a signal to try and get people listening to shut off their brain and accept all in this kind of 'Won't somebody think about the children' kind of automaton way.

What you've got there is a one sided and totally incomplete representation of what you think the debate should be, carefully crafted to lead people to the inevitable conclusion that you are right. Put that way, who could disagree with what you come up with, but since that representation is fundamentally wrong your conclusions are that much weaker.

Want some example of how they are wrong....well, there are too man. Here's a sample.

Palestinians do not kill kids. Radical religious groups that have some active support and a unfortunately high amount of tacit support or sympathy within the larger community (mostly during periods where peace seems impossible) kill a number of people with sucide bombings. These are civillians and far too often include children.

Quote:

Moral relativism on such a scale is truly disturbing, people. Those who voted "Israel" in the above poll desparately need to acknowledge two basic moral truths: wanton, indiscriminate murder of civilians is wrong, self defense is right. Got that?

Got what? Both sides are defending themselves in different manners...although I agree that since suicide bombings began with this recent intifada that Israel's tactics are preferred. Why don't we arm the Palestinians as well as the Israelis and see if they can afford the kind of more precise strikes and attacks against military targets that the Israelis can?