Palestinians Choose Their Own Leaders - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Four Fingers · 10-09-2003, 06:30 AM

Or so they say.

Following the discussion surrounding the Road Map to Peace in the Middle East, Bush declared that he'd pressure Israel to leave all occupied territories, but only after the Palestinians form a semi-democratic government. Yassir Arafat, the self-confessed totalitarian leader of the Palestinian Authority, believed it was in his interest to comply - or at least create the illusion that he does.

In complete disregard to actual democratic practice, Arafat himself appointed the "democratic prime minister." Nonetheless, the Americans were satisfied with the appointement of this PM, Abu Mazen (known to non-Arabs as Muhammed Abbas). While he used to take part in terror activities against Israel, he was considered different from Arafat in that that he never cooperated directly in acts against America or Jordan. Further more, he was always considered moderate in his views, and was one of the chief advocates of peace talks with Israel.

Interestingly, neither the Americans nor Yassir Arafat seemed to care what the so-called Palestinian people wanted. Indeed, the Israeli goverment dismissed Abu Mazen's administration, saying it's nothing less than "Arafat's puppet show." A couple of weeks later, Abu Mazen resigned from his position as Prime Minister. The PA blamed Israel and the US, although in Palestinian circles fingers were pointed at Arafat's people, who refused to pass any power or authority to Abu Mazen.

Next in line was Abu Ala. Alas, I don't know how his non-Arab name. Abu Ala struggled a bit harder than Abu Mazen. He was ready to give up on certain responsibilties, and even offered alternative goverment formations. Nothing worked. Today - just an hour ago, as a matter of fact - Abu Ala issued his resignation. This time he didn't even bother to blame Israel or the US.

In my opinion, this shows that either 1) the Palestinian people are too weak in character to demand a goverment consisting of their own representatives, or 2) that Arafat is too strong a dictator to allow anyone to challenge his rule. Either way, I recommend to all the tilted forumers who can see the correlation between democracy and peace, to unanimously support Israel in this conflict.

It is obvious that both the Jews and the Arabs want peace. But while the Jews elect their leaders, the Arabs do not.

Four Fingers · 10-09-2003, 06:32 AM

Alright, I found out that Abu Ala is known to the west as Ahmed Quarea (not sure about the spelling).

Arc101 · 10-09-2003, 08:16 AM

The massive demonstrations sweeping the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the 24-hour vigil at Yasser Arafat’s embattled Ramallah headquarters are a referendum by the Palestinian people with a simple message to Israel and the United States, Yasser Arafat is the democratically elected Palestinian leader. Palestinians have reinstated their trust in Arafat and within hours have given him something the United States and Israel have tirelessly tried for months to take away—his legitimacy, authority, and the support of his people.

There are several lessons to be learned from the events of the past few days. Ariel Sharon's countless attempts to eliminate Arafat have failed. With every attempt, Arafat emerges stronger and Palestinians rally behind him. And just when Arafat's fame and international spotlight fades, his old foe Sharon thrusts him back into living rooms all over the world.

Despite what Israelis believe Arafat may be involved in, the fact that the majority of Israelis support the idea of forcefully removing an elected leader and even assassinating him is a troublesome revelation of what kind of society "democratic" Israel has become. No one denies that Israelis are afraid to go to cafés, malls, or ride buses. Equally, Palestinians are afraid to walk to school, sleep in their beds and shop in markets. Killing Arafat will not end the violence as Sharon and his hawks want Israelis to believe. His death or exile won’t stop Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or the Al Aqsa Brigades from carrying out suicide bombings. Ending the occupation, giving an entire nation freedom and a future to live for, will. Both peoples have felt the pain of the loss of life and share a fear of the future. But Israelis have the power to bring an end to the violence, to come out and demand that they live in security by securing the freedom of their neighbors and ending their suffering. Israelis can end the suicide bombings by taking away the one issue which Hamas garners its support from—the occupation. Hamas wants nothing more than to see Arafat and the Palestinian Authority (PA) he created disappear so that it can take over Palestinian society. They have played on the mood of Palestinians, using their frustration with Arafat and his PA's willingness to deal with Israeli and U.S. dictates and peace plans that neglect Palestinian rights to gain support for their actions. This weekend Hamas continued to play on the peoples’ emotions issuing a statement condemning Israel's decision to eliminate Arafat. It is time Israel and the United States learn, just as Hamas has, to read the Palestinian people.

chavos · 10-09-2003, 09:39 AM

i would be very cautious about making statements such as "the palestinians are weak in character." Overbroad generalizations are the last thing this kind of discussion needs. It's a fractured society, and it doesn't take much to be the only game in town...and Arafat knows this.

Four Fingers · 10-09-2003, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arc101
The massive demonstrations sweeping the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the 24-hour vigil at Yasser Arafat’s embattled Ramallah headquarters are a referendum by the Palestinian people with a simple message to Israel and the United States, Yasser Arafat is the democratically elected Palestinian leader.

I don't follow. Did the demonstrations in Moscow in the 1940s imply in any way that the Russian people wanted Stalin?

A demonstration never represents what the majority of people think. Even if 100,000 men were marching in the streets, it still leaves more than a million people that weren't. Further more, what if 100,000 men wanted to demonstrate against Arafat? Would it be safe for them? Obviously not.

There's only one way to determine what most of the people want: anonymous ballot. And that's the exact reason why Yasser Arafat hasn't had one for more than eight years.

Quote:

Ariel Sharon's countless attempts to eliminate Arafat have failed.

Surely, if Sharon wanted to eliminate Arafat he could easily do so with a press of a button. And yet he doesn't. Maybe, just maybe, you're misinterpreting his actions?

I believe Sharon doesn't want to kill Arafat. He probably thinks that such an action would result in a new war with the Arab countries that surround Israel. Of course, I might be wrong as well - but at least my theory explains why Sharon hasn't ordered the killing of Arafat yet.

Your theory is in contradiction with reality. Wishful thinking, some would say.

Quote:

Killing Arafat will not end the violence as Sharon and his hawks want Israelis to believe. His death or exile won’t stop Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or the Al Aqsa Brigades from carrying out suicide bombings.

The Al Aqsa Brigades are a branch of the Patah forces, which are direct subbordonates of Yasser Arafat. In other words, Al Aqsa Brigades carry out suicide bombings whenever Yasser Arafat tells them to. Thus, your initial claim is already fully debunked.

But I rather take a different approach here. During peace talks in 1995, Israel suffered from a series of suicide attacks. In 1996, newly-eleceted PM Netanyahu halts peace talks. Bombings stop. In 2000, PM Barak continues peace talks, going even more to the left than his predecessors. What follows is the largest series of bombings Israel has ever experienced.

So it looks like going towards Arafat's demands will bring more terror - not less.

Quote:

Ending the occupation, giving an entire nation freedom and a future to live for, will.

Arafat founded the PLO in 1964, three years before the occupation began. So clearly the occupation has little to do with the terror.

Four Fingers · 10-09-2003, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
i would be very cautious about making statements such as "the palestinians are weak in character." Overbroad generalizations are the last thing this kind of discussion needs. It's a fractured society, and it doesn't take much to be the only game in town...and Arafat knows this.

You are right, of course. I won't edit it, but I'd like everybody to know that I don't actually think that the Palestinians have a certain weakness as a people. It just bothers me to see people ruled by a dictator blame the US and Israel for their troubles. It's probably wrong to judge...

The people of Iran are about to revolt against their totalitarian rulers, as reports show. I just hope that this will encourage people in other countries to do the same.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-09-2003, 06:20 PM

Arafat is a joke and the only reason he is leader is no one can stand up to the power he posesses(sp?). Sharon would've been smart to have Arafat killed when Israel rolled into Lebanon back in the 80's. Abu Mazen seemed like a decent guy, it says alot that Israel was willing to deal with him, he is what palestine needed... go figure Arafat fucked that up.

Sun Tzu · 10-10-2003, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Four Fingers

Either way, I recommend to all the tilted forumers who can see the correlation between democracy and peace, to unanimously support Israel in this conflict.

It is obvious that both the Jews and the Arabs want peace. But while the Jews elect their leaders, the Arabs do not.

I support Israel's right to exsist. I support Israel to stop expanding in areas that are internationally recognized as belonging to another populus, as well as a dismantlement process that is long overdue.

As far as the Palestinians voting: this is only a guess I have'nt been over there since Sharon visited the Temple Mount, but I would tend to think that aside if Arafat did/or didnt have his thumb on the arab population, going through several checkpoints (not uncommonly harrassing) and negotiating an imposed curfew would severely dampen the flow of the voting process.
Not that Israel would have any reason to do that.

**I want to comment that when I say Israel; Im not referring to all Israeli's or Jews; but the current adminstration there and the power behind it.

Four Fingers · 10-10-2003, 04:45 AM

65% - that's about two thirds - of the Israelis say they support the current administration. Heck, if you don't believe in polls (like me, actually), just look at the general elections: Sharon's party is twice as big as it's largest opponent. I'd say the current administration represents the Israeli people. You can't seperate the two things. That's the idea behind democracy.

Sadly, you can't say the same thing about dictatorship.

As to your point about checkpoints interfering with the democratic process of voting... Well, first of all, checkpoints stand between cities. Have voting booths in every city, and the problem is solved. Also, I don't think the Israelis would mind letting go for one day. They've done it before. I accept that I'm hypothesizing here, but look at it this way: if Sharon is so keen to get rid of Arafat, why interfere in any attempt to remove him?

mb99usa · 10-10-2003, 07:51 AM

I have to admit upfront that I do not posses much knowledge on the area or what the true root of the conflict is. This said I think the US has too large a role in that area of the world. We would not tolerate either of those countries trying to tell us how to run America so why should we expect them to want or even tolerate our presence there.

From what I have seen America is becoming what we say we are against. An international bully. We throw ourselves into every other countries business but tell them to stay away from us.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-10-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mb99usa
I have to admit upfront that I do not posses much knowledge on the area or what the true root of the conflict is. This said I think the US has too large a role in that area of the world. We would not tolerate either of those countries trying to tell us how to run America so why should we expect them to want or even tolerate our presence there.

From what I have seen America is becoming what we say we are against. An international bully. We throw ourselves into every other countries business but tell them to stay away from us.

We need a large role in this area of the world because its a thorn in the side of Western Civilization at this point in time. Further more we started out in Israel as political support for a new democratc government, but stepped further in once the Soviets get into the Arab camp. Also we police the region because it is part of our strategy of global dominance, that way other countries don't have to get involved their and they have less of a military presence.

Sun Tzu · 10-10-2003, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Four Fingers
65% - that's about two thirds - of the Israelis say they support the current administration. Heck, if you don't believe in polls (like me, actually), just look at the general elections: Sharon's party is twice as big as it's largest opponent.

I made that comment because another member stated that too many people use the Israel as if its a single entity when engaged in these discussions, I was attemtping my best not to offend anyone as this subject has allot of emotion behind it. I strive to say what I believe and hopefully maintain an atmosphere that doesnt take the conversation to bad place. The fact is is an extremely heated subject and I think more are starting to understand what it has the potential of becoming. I will make such clarifications from time to tme to hopefully take fuel away from someone that is looking for reasons to flame.

I dont know if I believe in polls myself, and like everything else rely on what I see on TV, read, or hear on the radio as it has become entirley too dangerous to go there. (which is too bad; it may not be the most asthetically pleasing place, but full of interesting places too visit)

As far as Israel releasing the grip for a day and it being effective; it's a good question. Without going into the reasons of why the checkpoints are there (another discussion) if several deaths have happend because hospital access was not granted I see problems associated with other things.

10-09-2003, 06:30 AM	#1 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	Palestinians Choose Their Own Leaders Or so they say. Following the discussion surrounding the Road Map to Peace in the Middle East, Bush declared that he'd pressure Israel to leave all occupied territories, but only after the Palestinians form a semi-democratic government. Yassir Arafat, the self-confessed totalitarian leader of the Palestinian Authority, believed it was in his interest to comply - or at least create the illusion that he does. In complete disregard to actual democratic practice, Arafat himself appointed the "democratic prime minister." Nonetheless, the Americans were satisfied with the appointement of this PM, Abu Mazen (known to non-Arabs as Muhammed Abbas). While he used to take part in terror activities against Israel, he was considered different from Arafat in that that he never cooperated directly in acts against America or Jordan. Further more, he was always considered moderate in his views, and was one of the chief advocates of peace talks with Israel. Interestingly, neither the Americans nor Yassir Arafat seemed to care what the so-called Palestinian people wanted. Indeed, the Israeli goverment dismissed Abu Mazen's administration, saying it's nothing less than "Arafat's puppet show." A couple of weeks later, Abu Mazen resigned from his position as Prime Minister. The PA blamed Israel and the US, although in Palestinian circles fingers were pointed at Arafat's people, who refused to pass any power or authority to Abu Mazen. Next in line was Abu Ala. Alas, I don't know how his non-Arab name. Abu Ala struggled a bit harder than Abu Mazen. He was ready to give up on certain responsibilties, and even offered alternative goverment formations. Nothing worked. Today - just an hour ago, as a matter of fact - Abu Ala issued his resignation. This time he didn't even bother to blame Israel or the US. In my opinion, this shows that either 1) the Palestinian people are too weak in character to demand a goverment consisting of their own representatives, or 2) that Arafat is too strong a dictator to allow anyone to challenge his rule. Either way, I recommend to all the tilted forumers who can see the correlation between democracy and peace, to unanimously support Israel in this conflict. It is obvious that both the Jews and the Arabs want peace. But while the Jews elect their leaders, the Arabs do not. __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest." Last edited by Four Fingers; 10-09-2003 at 06:33 AM..

10-09-2003, 06:32 AM	#2 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	Alright, I found out that Abu Ala is known to the west as Ahmed Quarea (not sure about the spelling). __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

10-09-2003, 06:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Arafat is a joke and the only reason he is leader is no one can stand up to the power he posesses(sp?). Sharon would've been smart to have Arafat killed when Israel rolled into Lebanon back in the 80's. Abu Mazen seemed like a decent guy, it says alot that Israel was willing to deal with him, he is what palestine needed... go figure Arafat fucked that up. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-10-2003, 04:45 AM	#9 (permalink)
Four Fingers Crazy	65% - that's about two thirds - of the Israelis say they support the current administration. Heck, if you don't believe in polls (like me, actually), just look at the general elections: Sharon's party is twice as big as it's largest opponent. I'd say the current administration represents the Israeli people. You can't seperate the two things. That's the idea behind democracy. Sadly, you can't say the same thing about dictatorship. As to your point about checkpoints interfering with the democratic process of voting... Well, first of all, checkpoints stand between cities. Have voting booths in every city, and the problem is solved. Also, I don't think the Israelis would mind letting go for one day. They've done it before. I accept that I'm hypothesizing here, but look at it this way: if Sharon is so keen to get rid of Arafat, why interfere in any attempt to remove him? __________________ "Always do right - this will gratify some and astonish the rest."

10-10-2003, 07:51 AM	#10 (permalink)
mb99usa Keep on rolling. It only hurts for a little while. Location: wherever I am	I have to admit upfront that I do not posses much knowledge on the area or what the true root of the conflict is. This said I think the US has too large a role in that area of the world. We would not tolerate either of those countries trying to tell us how to run America so why should we expect them to want or even tolerate our presence there. From what I have seen America is becoming what we say we are against. An international bully. We throw ourselves into every other countries business but tell them to stay away from us. __________________ So, what's your point? It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

10-09-2003, 08:16 AM	#3 (permalink)
Arc101 Addict Location: Nottingham, England	The massive demonstrations sweeping the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the 24-hour vigil at Yasser Arafat’s embattled Ramallah headquarters are a referendum by the Palestinian people with a simple message to Israel and the United States, Yasser Arafat is the democratically elected Palestinian leader. Palestinians have reinstated their trust in Arafat and within hours have given him something the United States and Israel have tirelessly tried for months to take away—his legitimacy, authority, and the support of his people. There are several lessons to be learned from the events of the past few days. Ariel Sharon's countless attempts to eliminate Arafat have failed. With every attempt, Arafat emerges stronger and Palestinians rally behind him. And just when Arafat's fame and international spotlight fades, his old foe Sharon thrusts him back into living rooms all over the world. Despite what Israelis believe Arafat may be involved in, the fact that the majority of Israelis support the idea of forcefully removing an elected leader and even assassinating him is a troublesome revelation of what kind of society "democratic" Israel has become. No one denies that Israelis are afraid to go to cafés, malls, or ride buses. Equally, Palestinians are afraid to walk to school, sleep in their beds and shop in markets. Killing Arafat will not end the violence as Sharon and his hawks want Israelis to believe. His death or exile won’t stop Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or the Al Aqsa Brigades from carrying out suicide bombings. Ending the occupation, giving an entire nation freedom and a future to live for, will. Both peoples have felt the pain of the loss of life and share a fear of the future. But Israelis have the power to bring an end to the violence, to come out and demand that they live in security by securing the freedom of their neighbors and ending their suffering. Israelis can end the suicide bombings by taking away the one issue which Hamas garners its support from—the occupation. Hamas wants nothing more than to see Arafat and the Palestinian Authority (PA) he created disappear so that it can take over Palestinian society. They have played on the mood of Palestinians, using their frustration with Arafat and his PA's willingness to deal with Israeli and U.S. dictates and peace plans that neglect Palestinian rights to gain support for their actions. This weekend Hamas continued to play on the peoples’ emotions issuing a statement condemning Israel's decision to eliminate Arafat. It is time Israel and the United States learn, just as Hamas has, to read the Palestinian people.

10-09-2003, 09:39 AM	#4 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	i would be very cautious about making statements such as "the palestinians are weak in character." Overbroad generalizations are the last thing this kind of discussion needs. It's a fractured society, and it doesn't take much to be the only game in town...and Arafat knows this.