Day of extreme contrast in Middle East - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

popo · 10-04-2003, 03:15 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/04/in...st/04ISRA.html

Israeli Officer Is Charged in 4 Killings in West Bank
By GREG MYRE

Published: October 4, 2003

JERUSALEM, Oct. 3 — The Israeli military has filed manslaughter charges against an army officer in the killing of four Palestinians, including three children, at an outdoor food market last year, the army said Friday. The indictment says the four were killed when the officer, identified only as a lieutenant, ordered the firing of tank shells and machine guns to enforce a curfew.

Palestinians and human rights groups have accused Israeli troops of unprovoked shootings of civilians during the past three years of fighting, but say such cases are seldom investigated.

B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group, said this case was the ninth time in the past three years that the military had indicted troops on charges of illegally using deadly force. The cases are at various stages in Israel's military courts, and none have been resolved, the group said.

In the latest indictment, the Israeli officer is accused of ordering tank crews to fire shells and machine guns to drive Palestinians off the street during a curfew on June 21, 2002, in Jenin, in the northern West Bank.

The shooting killed a 6-year-old girl, Sojud Shohaneh, along with two boys, brothers ages 13 and 5, and a 53-year-old man. Five Palestinians were hurt, three of them children.

...

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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._nm/mideast_dc

Palestinian Woman Suicide Bomber Kills 19 in Israel
1 hour, 11 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!

By Matt Spetalnick

HAIFA, Israel (Reuters) - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew herself up in a busy restaurant in the Israeli city of Haifa on Saturday, killing 19 people including three children and sparking new calls in Israel to exile Yasser Arafat (news - web sites).

The attack just before the Yom Kippur fast day provoked an international outcry and Israeli government ministers demanded action to remove the Palestinian president. Palestinian leaders appealed to the world to prevent any assault to remove him.

The Islamic Jihad movement said it was behind the attack, in which the bomber struck as families sat down for lunch on the Jewish sabbath at the Maxim restaurant, owned by a Christian Arab and a Jewish family and frequented by Arabs and Jews.

"Suddenly we heard a tremendous explosion. We saw smoke pour out of the restaurant and the windows shattered," said witness Navon Hai. "There wasn't much we could do. Families were dead around the tables, there were children without limbs."

Wires and roofing material were left dangling. Windows were shattered on all sides of the restaurant and shoes and bloody clothing littered a nearby parking lot. Dazed people wandered around in swimming trunks after leaving the beach.

The bomber's severed head with a long mane of dark hair lay on the floor in the center of the restaurant, surrounded by other body parts and bloody clothes. A black and white checkered baby carriage stood amid the wreckage.

Police said the dead included three children and a security guard, and that about 50 people were wounded. A number of Israeli Arabs were also thought to be among the dead.

Islamic Jihad named the bomber as Hanadi Tayseer Jaradat, 29, from the West Bank city of Jenin. It said she was avenging the killing of her brother and cousin, Islamic Jihad members, by Israel in the three-year-old Palestinian uprising for statehood.

The Israeli army said she was the fifth women to carry out a suicide bombing since the revolt began.

FIRST BOMBING IN WEEKS

The attack dealt a new blow to a stalled U.S.-backed peace "road map." It was the first since twin attacks killed 15 people on September 9 and the first since Israel's cabinet decided in principle on September 11 to "remove" Arafat.

The bombing followed an increase in tension this week after Israel decided to build a new stage of its barrier with the West Bank which will cut deep into Palestinian territory.

Arafat condemned the attack and said it would give Israel a pretext to obstruct international peace efforts.

Prime Minister-designate Ahmed Qurie, whose government is obliged to rein in militants under the road map, urged militants to "fully halt these actions that target civilians."

"That is too little and too late," said Jonathan Peled, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, demanding action not words.

Israel blamed Arafat for the violence and is likely to mount a tough response to the suicide bombing. "Arafat has become a living obstacle to peace. It is imperative that we get rid of him," Israeli Science Minister Eliezer Sandberg told Reuters.

"If Israel reaches the conclusion that it must take serious action, it will have to do it and the world will have to accept it," said Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

The Palestine Liberation Organization (news - web sites)'s executive committee appealed to the world not to permit an Israeli assault to prise Arafat out of his West Bank headquarters, urging it to prevent any "crimes...against President Arafat personally."

About 30 Arafat supporters including some foreigners later went to his compound in the city of Ramallah to act as "human shields," witnesses said.

President Bush (news - web sites) said the attack was despicable. He urged the Palestinians "to fight terror, which remains the foremost obstacle to achieving the vision of two states living side by side in peace and security."

Britain, France and Germany also condemned the bombing. The United Nations (news - web sites) said such attacks harmed the Palestinian cause.

The Palestinians say it is hard to end violence when Israel continues to track and kill militants in air strikes and keeps in place army blockades that restrict Palestinians' movement.

Palestinian witnesses said Israeli troops shot dead a militant and a nine-year-old boy in the Tulkarm refugee camp in the West Bank. Israeli military sources confirmed the death of the militant but said they had no reports of a boy being killed.

chavos · 10-04-2003, 04:11 PM

Contrast? All i see it wasteful deaths, and inhuman disregard for life.

popo · 10-04-2003, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
Contrast? All i see it wasteful deaths, and inhuman disregard for life.

While one people try and right the wrongful deaths of innocents, I can guarantee that there were no attempts to arrest those responsible for the bombing.

chavos · 10-04-2003, 04:46 PM

read what you post...the first article mentions that the IDF has several such indicents under review with no outcome from any of them, and allegations of more atrocitires. I sympathize with isreal, i really do...it's not right to ask a regular army to have to do what the IDF does...but the outcome is suffering on both sides. mothers weap for their dead children on both sides of the green line. i don't see the contrast in the articles you posted here.

popo · 10-04-2003, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
read what you post...the first article mentions that the IDF has several such indicents under review with no outcome from any of them, and allegations of more atrocitires. I sympathize with isreal, i really do...it's not right to ask a regular army to have to do what the IDF does...but the outcome is suffering on both sides. mothers weap for their dead children on both sides of the green line. i don't see the contrast in the articles you posted here.

Look for the 9 incidents of Hamas/Islanic Jihad members being indicted and when you don't find them, you'll see the contrast.

chavos · 10-04-2003, 06:47 PM

Quote:

The shooting killed a 6-year-old girl, Sojud Shohaneh, along with two boys, brothers ages 13 and 5, and a 53-year-old man. Five Palestinians were hurt, three of them children.

Quote:

Police said the dead included three children and a security guard, and that about 50 people were wounded. A number of Israeli Arabs were also thought to be among the dead.

Says it all. People are dying becuase there has been an unwillingness to find peace, on both sides. Frankly, my instinct is to favor isreal, but when you ask an army to control a civilian/guerilla population, you will have wrongful deaths....and an indictment is not likely to console that family. I'm all for backing a secure and safe isreal, but i can't be blind to palestinian suffering. it is not that 6 year old's fault that her people don't have a good government that has the rule of law. thus my original statement. for whatever cosmetic difference an indictment might provide, it is whitewash on a conflict that has gone on too damn long.

Nad Adam · 10-05-2003, 01:47 AM

I no longer care one way or the other, personaly I feel like suicidebombing all religous fanatics be they muslims, christians, jews or whatever.

HarmlessRabbit · 10-05-2003, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by popo
While one people try and right the wrongful deaths of innocents, I can guarantee that there were no attempts to arrest those responsible for the bombing.

It's crazy to try to justify either position. Both the Palestinians and the Israelis are slaughtering innocent people in the name of what they think is right. Personally, I hold the Israelis slightly more responsible, because they are the organized government and they are the ones with the power to stop. Arafat really can't stop the terrorists if they choose to ignore him. Israel's army would absolutely stop killing innocent people if ordered to do so.

But, overall, it's like trying to say whether a punch in the face or a kick in the balls is better. They both suck.

The_Dude · 10-05-2003, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nad Adam

I no longer care one way or the other, personaly I feel like suicidebombing all religous fanatics be they muslims, christians, jews or whatever.

I agree.

I dont think either sides want to compromise and a start of mediation falls shorty. I dont see a solution in the near future

jeenyus · 10-05-2003, 11:01 AM

CAn't we get along? GOD DAMNIT!!!!
*lays on floor and cries*

Maybe not....

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-05-2003, 04:28 PM

I think its tough to hold Israel to a higher standard. After an attack they go in to round up militants, and seriously the IDF gets ambushed from all sides because they are in enemy territory; thats all fair and good because they are regulars and not civilians. It becomes a problem when you have Palestinian civilians hurling rocks and shooting at them, are you seriously going to ask them to not return fire? I am glad to hear that Israel is finally policing within their ranks, no excuse for murder like that.

Food Eater Lad · 10-05-2003, 05:00 PM

How about Israel not build anymore settlements and when people scream about Israel's aggressive actions for stealing land, they wont have any ammo?

HarmlessRabbit · 10-05-2003, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I think its tough to hold Israel to a higher standard. After an attack they go in to round up militants, and seriously the IDF gets ambushed from all sides because they are in enemy territory; thats all fair and good because they are regulars and not civilians. It becomes a problem when you have Palestinian civilians hurling rocks and shooting at them, are you seriously going to ask them to not return fire? I am glad to hear that Israel is finally policing within their ranks, no excuse for murder like that.

The targeted assassinations and bulldozing of the houses of dead bombers (and in some cases their relative's houses as well) is not what I would consider the defensive actions of a just government. As I said, I think both sides suck. Israel, though, as the mature adult in this fight, has a responsibility to make the first move.

popo · 10-05-2003, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
The targeted assassinations and bulldozing of the houses of dead bombers (and in some cases their relative's houses as well) is not what I would consider the defensive actions of a just government. As I said, I think both sides suck. Israel, though, as the mature adult in this fight, has a responsibility to make the first move.

Israel, as the mature adult has made countless first moves.

1) They accepted a 2 state solution with an international Jerusalem

2) They offered back the occupied territories in return for peace, IMMEDIATELY after seizing them in 1967

3) As part of Oslo, somewhere in the range of 98% of Palestinians fell under PA control

4) They have already given back 93% of the land won in a defensive war (Sinai) and have offered back 100% of Gaza and 97% of WB.

Each time, Israel has been met with war. After a 50 year war, it's time for the kids to grow the fuck up.

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-05-2003, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
The targeted assassinations and bulldozing of the houses of dead bombers (and in some cases their relative's houses as well) is not what I would consider the defensive actions of a just government. As I said, I think both sides suck. Israel, though, as the mature adult in this fight, has a responsibility to make the first move.

Agreed, but I was more talking about when they move in to arrest militants and what not. I whole heartedly agree that firing hell fire missles at cars in traffic is not a bright idea, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Killconey · 10-05-2003, 10:56 PM

Until both sides manage to come to an agreement and stop fighting, this will continue to be a Catch 22. Israel and Palestine are engaged in more than a simple battle for land, they are fighting on behalf of their gods and on behalf of their pride as a nation. This higher calling inspires both sides to greater violence and lessens the possibility for peace. Now we have a Newton's law war where every action is met with an (relatively) equal and opposite reaction. The only way to stop this war is to stop all action and that just might be impossible.

hobo · 10-07-2003, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by popo
While one people try and right the wrongful deaths of innocents, I can guarantee that there were no attempts to arrest those responsible for the bombing.

Maybe because they blow themselves up...

Both sides suck though. Maybe if someone could stop the flow of weapons into the area, they wouldn't be able to kill so much.

10-04-2003, 03:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
popo Psycho	Day of extreme contrast in Middle East http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/04/in...st/04ISRA.html Israeli Officer Is Charged in 4 Killings in West Bank By GREG MYRE Published: October 4, 2003 JERUSALEM, Oct. 3 — The Israeli military has filed manslaughter charges against an army officer in the killing of four Palestinians, including three children, at an outdoor food market last year, the army said Friday. The indictment says the four were killed when the officer, identified only as a lieutenant, ordered the firing of tank shells and machine guns to enforce a curfew. Palestinians and human rights groups have accused Israeli troops of unprovoked shootings of civilians during the past three years of fighting, but say such cases are seldom investigated. B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights group, said this case was the ninth time in the past three years that the military had indicted troops on charges of illegally using deadly force. The cases are at various stages in Israel's military courts, and none have been resolved, the group said. In the latest indictment, the Israeli officer is accused of ordering tank crews to fire shells and machine guns to drive Palestinians off the street during a curfew on June 21, 2002, in Jenin, in the northern West Bank. The shooting killed a 6-year-old girl, Sojud Shohaneh, along with two boys, brothers ages 13 and 5, and a 53-year-old man. Five Palestinians were hurt, three of them children. ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._nm/mideast_dc Palestinian Woman Suicide Bomber Kills 19 in Israel 1 hour, 11 minutes ago Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo! By Matt Spetalnick HAIFA, Israel (Reuters) - A Palestinian suicide bomber blew herself up in a busy restaurant in the Israeli city of Haifa on Saturday, killing 19 people including three children and sparking new calls in Israel to exile Yasser Arafat (news - web sites). The attack just before the Yom Kippur fast day provoked an international outcry and Israeli government ministers demanded action to remove the Palestinian president. Palestinian leaders appealed to the world to prevent any assault to remove him. The Islamic Jihad movement said it was behind the attack, in which the bomber struck as families sat down for lunch on the Jewish sabbath at the Maxim restaurant, owned by a Christian Arab and a Jewish family and frequented by Arabs and Jews. "Suddenly we heard a tremendous explosion. We saw smoke pour out of the restaurant and the windows shattered," said witness Navon Hai. "There wasn't much we could do. Families were dead around the tables, there were children without limbs." Wires and roofing material were left dangling. Windows were shattered on all sides of the restaurant and shoes and bloody clothing littered a nearby parking lot. Dazed people wandered around in swimming trunks after leaving the beach. The bomber's severed head with a long mane of dark hair lay on the floor in the center of the restaurant, surrounded by other body parts and bloody clothes. A black and white checkered baby carriage stood amid the wreckage. Police said the dead included three children and a security guard, and that about 50 people were wounded. A number of Israeli Arabs were also thought to be among the dead. Islamic Jihad named the bomber as Hanadi Tayseer Jaradat, 29, from the West Bank city of Jenin. It said she was avenging the killing of her brother and cousin, Islamic Jihad members, by Israel in the three-year-old Palestinian uprising for statehood. The Israeli army said she was the fifth women to carry out a suicide bombing since the revolt began. FIRST BOMBING IN WEEKS The attack dealt a new blow to a stalled U.S.-backed peace "road map." It was the first since twin attacks killed 15 people on September 9 and the first since Israel's cabinet decided in principle on September 11 to "remove" Arafat. The bombing followed an increase in tension this week after Israel decided to build a new stage of its barrier with the West Bank which will cut deep into Palestinian territory. Arafat condemned the attack and said it would give Israel a pretext to obstruct international peace efforts. Prime Minister-designate Ahmed Qurie, whose government is obliged to rein in militants under the road map, urged militants to "fully halt these actions that target civilians." "That is too little and too late," said Jonathan Peled, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, demanding action not words. Israel blamed Arafat for the violence and is likely to mount a tough response to the suicide bombing. "Arafat has become a living obstacle to peace. It is imperative that we get rid of him," Israeli Science Minister Eliezer Sandberg told Reuters. "If Israel reaches the conclusion that it must take serious action, it will have to do it and the world will have to accept it," said Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. The Palestine Liberation Organization (news - web sites)'s executive committee appealed to the world not to permit an Israeli assault to prise Arafat out of his West Bank headquarters, urging it to prevent any "crimes...against President Arafat personally." About 30 Arafat supporters including some foreigners later went to his compound in the city of Ramallah to act as "human shields," witnesses said. President Bush (news - web sites) said the attack was despicable. He urged the Palestinians "to fight terror, which remains the foremost obstacle to achieving the vision of two states living side by side in peace and security." Britain, France and Germany also condemned the bombing. The United Nations (news - web sites) said such attacks harmed the Palestinian cause. The Palestinians say it is hard to end violence when Israel continues to track and kill militants in air strikes and keeps in place army blockades that restrict Palestinians' movement. Palestinian witnesses said Israeli troops shot dead a militant and a nine-year-old boy in the Tulkarm refugee camp in the West Bank. Israeli military sources confirmed the death of the militant but said they had no reports of a boy being killed.

10-05-2003, 01:47 AM	#7 (permalink)
Nad Adam Psycho Location: Sweden	I no longer care one way or the other, personaly I feel like suicidebombing all religous fanatics be they muslims, christians, jews or whatever. __________________ Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. - Psalms 137:9

10-05-2003, 11:01 AM	#10 (permalink)
jeenyus Banned	. CAn't we get along? GOD DAMNIT!!!! lays on floor and cries Maybe not....

10-05-2003, 04:28 PM	#11 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I think its tough to hold Israel to a higher standard. After an attack they go in to round up militants, and seriously the IDF gets ambushed from all sides because they are in enemy territory; thats all fair and good because they are regulars and not civilians. It becomes a problem when you have Palestinian civilians hurling rocks and shooting at them, are you seriously going to ask them to not return fire? I am glad to hear that Israel is finally policing within their ranks, no excuse for murder like that. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

10-05-2003, 10:56 PM	#16 (permalink)
Killconey Crazy Location: Various places in the Midwest, all depending on when I'm posting.	Until both sides manage to come to an agreement and stop fighting, this will continue to be a Catch 22. Israel and Palestine are engaged in more than a simple battle for land, they are fighting on behalf of their gods and on behalf of their pride as a nation. This higher calling inspires both sides to greater violence and lessens the possibility for peace. Now we have a Newton's law war where every action is met with an (relatively) equal and opposite reaction. The only way to stop this war is to stop all action and that just might be impossible. __________________ Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

10-04-2003, 04:11 PM	#2 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	Contrast? All i see it wasteful deaths, and inhuman disregard for life.

10-04-2003, 04:46 PM	#4 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	read what you post...the first article mentions that the IDF has several such indicents under review with no outcome from any of them, and allegations of more atrocitires. I sympathize with isreal, i really do...it's not right to ask a regular army to have to do what the IDF does...but the outcome is suffering on both sides. mothers weap for their dead children on both sides of the green line. i don't see the contrast in the articles you posted here.

10-05-2003, 05:00 PM	#12 (permalink)
Food Eater Lad Banned	How about Israel not build anymore settlements and when people scream about Israel's aggressive actions for stealing land, they wont have any ammo?