Libertarians vs Liberals vs Conservatives - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sun Tzu · 08-27-2003, 10:39 PM

There is something that continues to puzzle me as time goes on, I’m not claiming to be a political expert, and this is my view as I understand things. If I’m way off that’s why I’m asking.

I see Democrats or Liberals desiring social freedom, and heavy government intervention on America’s economic management.

I see Republicans or Conservatives desiring less government intervention with economic management, but desire to see a certain level of moral behavior carried by Americans; even if that means possibly having to enforce it.

I don’t understand how the lines were drawn that way. Some of the libertarian mindset makes sense (the drug issue is a problem), but I don’t see them ever getting anywhere; almost as if votes in that direction are wasted.

I’m curious to hear from both sides on this. If the libertarian party feels there should be less government involvement on both issues why aren’t they appealing? What is their major problem?

Phaenx · 08-27-2003, 11:10 PM

Third parties tend to be a "sponge" in terms of votes. I think the basic mindset people have that aren't a republican or a democrat is to look at both sides nominees, and pick the lesser of two evils. They do this because they know there's no way the guy they really want in office will ever make it. This country is just dominated by two parties.

It is hard to say why, but I think this may be at least one of many reasons. Very interesting though.

Xell101 · 08-27-2003, 11:16 PM

We need more hippies, smart ones this time that can actually figure out what it is they are protestings and trying to make everyone aware of, instead of degradating into a group of useless unamerican boneheads.

To briefly explain how I came to that comment, the Libertarian way of thinking makes a lot of sense, the libertarian party has some pretty wacky ideas that arne't exactly as "extreme" as the way of thinking would go to suggest they would end up being. Why? All the political parties end of basically toning down eventually into a similar way of thinking designed to operate around the same cultural May Pole. Hippies realized there was something foul going on, they didn't clearly determine what so they just became another problem to get run over and lead to more stupid people.

seretogis · 08-28-2003, 08:17 AM

The reason that people vote Democrat or Republican instead of Libertarian is because Libertarian solutions to problems are tough, and require thinking and work. Why save money for retirement if Democrats and Republicans offer government handouts? Why work on sending your child to a private school if Democrats and Republicans will just raise your taxes and throw more money at public schools?

The LP is not a party of convenience, and until they somehow find a way to wake up voters they will never have much political influence.

2wolves · 08-28-2003, 09:36 AM

Pure Libetarianism is about as do-able as pure communism or pure capitalism. An ideal better suited for angels than humans.

2Wolves

Sun Tzu · 08-28-2003, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2wolves
Pure Libetarianism is about as do-able as pure communism or pure capitalism. An ideal better suited for angels than humans.

2Wolves

In what way? Kind of the Gremlins story; given responsibility with accountability we'd screw it up. Total quality management and strong leadership is one thing; but small groups of people dictating how things are going to be is what the founding of America was supposed to prevent wasnt it?

There's allot of debate right now about interpretation of what the founders meant. Do you think they understood that it had the potential to evolve into something bigger or more?

Willy · 08-29-2003, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 2wolves
Pure Libetarianism is about as do-able as pure communism or pure capitalism. An ideal better suited for angels than humans.

2Wolves

Agreed.

Ideal systems could work in a perfect world. In the real world, compromises have to be made. That said, I consider myself a moderate libertarian, and I would definitely vote libertarian if I didn't have a clear preference between the republican and democrat nominees, or if my "lesser of two evils" preference was far ahead in the polls. In a close election though, I will always vote for the major party candidate that I prefer, because I know a libertarian isn't going to win the election, and I want to use my vote for my favorite of the guys that could actually get elected. I'm sure there's some people that voted for Ralph Nader in the last election that would have liked to see him elected, but now wish they would have voted for Gore.

JcL · 08-29-2003, 11:24 PM

Arnold defines himself as libertarian - and he's doing quite well in the polls. Obviously much can be attributed to his fame as opposed to positions at this point - but in California especially the thought of retaining our liberal social positions but taking a more conservative approach to our financial issues after Davis wrecked it with overspending is appealing.

Anyways, you can still find libertarians in the other political camps. And they aren't necessarily without popularity. However if you're speaking purely of a third party as opposed to actual political leanings, then yes, libertarians definitely are not going to be getting very far in this country.

Sun Tzu · 08-30-2003, 03:49 AM

Do you think its their stance on drugs? I know people who consider themselves Conservatives, but merely becauase of the way the taxes are handled not the social side.

Thank you for the input, but I still dont understand (outside of legalizing drugs) why Americans wouldnt want this party.

seretogis · 08-30-2003, 10:11 AM

I can't imagine that it would be the Libertarian stance on drugs. I don't know of many intelligent adults who think that the "war on drugs" is actually working. They go out each weekend and have no problem finding a supply of x, weed, coke, or whatever else they are in the mood for.

JcL · 08-30-2003, 10:15 AM

With the electoral college, and now with the media, the US simply is not setup in a political position that welcomes a third party. Now, the idealogy of that party can still be found present in politicians of the other parties.

So I don't think the lack of popularity for the libertarian party has anything to do with actual specific issues - which is a shame but how the system works.

smooth · 08-30-2003, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JcL
Arnold defines himself as libertarian - and he's doing quite well in the polls. Obviously much can be attributed to his fame as opposed to positions at this point - but in California especially the thought of retaining our liberal social positions but taking a more conservative approach to our financial issues after Davis wrecked it with overspending is appealing.

Anyways, you can still find libertarians in the other political camps. And they aren't necessarily without popularity. However if you're speaking purely of a third party as opposed to actual political leanings, then yes, libertarians definitely are not going to be getting very far in this country.

Where are you getting that information? Everyplace I've seen Arnold define his political ideology it has been under the Republican flag.

Arianna is our Indi candidate. Simply because Arnold claims he's an outsider to politics doesn't make him a libertarian--although people here who might not be paying attention could start thinking the few issues he has spoken about place him in tandem with their ideology.

JcL · 08-30-2003, 01:51 PM

I believe he said that he was somewhat of a libertarian in some interview somewhere...

But even if I'm confusing that, just look at his issues. Liberal on social issues and conservative for fiscal ones.

Willy · 08-31-2003, 07:22 AM

Most Libertarians support drug legalization to some extent.

Take a look at this test.... http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi/purity.cgi if you want to know what extreme libertarianism is about. As I have said before, any political concept can be taken too far.

I scored a 50 btw.

Thagrastay · 08-31-2003, 08:40 AM

The Democratic Party in the United States was formed as a vehicle for the agrarian lifetyle that was prdominant at the time. The Republican Party was a third dark horse party and was the vehicle by which Abraham Licoln gained the presidency. Third Party politics in the US are possible- Jesse Ventura was elected Governor of Minnesota on an independent ticket.
Unfortunately, the Democratic Party no longer represents the "Common Man' in America and no longer speaks for the unprotected. It has become, sadly more of a Socialist movement and the main thrust of the Huge Government ideal. It has been called "Plantation Thinking": we are the slaves, the Government is the Plantation and we work for the Plantation Owners who house and feed us and on occassion extend us liberties.
The Republican Party had for a while there, a very Libertarian outlook to it's position- small central government, state's rights, independence and pursuit of happiness, etc. But that whole scenario was exploded because of the oppression that was the norm in the industrial atmosphere of the early 20th century. Too much exploitation of the workers, too little control of the corporations. It is still that way.
Libertarians are the third party and in the shadow of the other two because they lack a vehicle which will allow them to come to the forefront- they need PR. they need a strong figure which people can rally around on a grass roots type of swell and launch them into the social consciousness.
The founders of the nation clearly understood the directions it was possible for this country to go in and gave us great warning to stay the course they began. Their biggest concern at that time was becomin re-colonized by the european interests and avoiding that occurrence. But withing 20 years of gaining our independence from Britain, we handed them our econopmy to run. Andrew Jackson foiled their plot, and Lincoln weathered the fallout and held the country together. Things went horribly wrong, however, in 1913 when we became a slave state to the European money.

rogue49 · 08-31-2003, 12:05 PM

If the Libertarians could ever get their message clear,
and back it up and center it with charismatic leader.

They would become the most likely third party.

Personally, I tend to be mostly libertarian
with a bit of Dem & GOP mixed in.

Unfortunately, both of the main parties have become glutted & corrupted,
only concerned about pork.

08-27-2003, 10:39 PM	#1 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Libertarians vs Liberals vs Conservatives There is something that continues to puzzle me as time goes on, I’m not claiming to be a political expert, and this is my view as I understand things. If I’m way off that’s why I’m asking. I see Democrats or Liberals desiring social freedom, and heavy government intervention on America’s economic management. I see Republicans or Conservatives desiring less government intervention with economic management, but desire to see a certain level of moral behavior carried by Americans; even if that means possibly having to enforce it. I don’t understand how the lines were drawn that way. Some of the libertarian mindset makes sense (the drug issue is a problem), but I don’t see them ever getting anywhere; almost as if votes in that direction are wasted. I’m curious to hear from both sides on this. If the libertarian party feels there should be less government involvement on both issues why aren’t they appealing? What is their major problem? __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

08-27-2003, 11:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Third parties tend to be a "sponge" in terms of votes. I think the basic mindset people have that aren't a republican or a democrat is to look at both sides nominees, and pick the lesser of two evils. They do this because they know there's no way the guy they really want in office will ever make it. This country is just dominated by two parties. It is hard to say why, but I think this may be at least one of many reasons. Very interesting though. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

08-28-2003, 08:17 AM	#4 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	The reason that people vote Democrat or Republican instead of Libertarian is because Libertarian solutions to problems are tough, and require thinking and work. Why save money for retirement if Democrats and Republicans offer government handouts? Why work on sending your child to a private school if Democrats and Republicans will just raise your taxes and throw more money at public schools? The LP is not a party of convenience, and until they somehow find a way to wake up voters they will never have much political influence. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

08-29-2003, 11:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
JcL Crazy Location: Simi Valley, CA	Arnold defines himself as libertarian - and he's doing quite well in the polls. Obviously much can be attributed to his fame as opposed to positions at this point - but in California especially the thought of retaining our liberal social positions but taking a more conservative approach to our financial issues after Davis wrecked it with overspending is appealing. Anyways, you can still find libertarians in the other political camps. And they aren't necessarily without popularity. However if you're speaking purely of a third party as opposed to actual political leanings, then yes, libertarians definitely are not going to be getting very far in this country. __________________ "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

08-30-2003, 03:49 AM	#9 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Do you think its their stance on drugs? I know people who consider themselves Conservatives, but merely becauase of the way the taxes are handled not the social side. Thank you for the input, but I still dont understand (outside of legalizing drugs) why Americans wouldnt want this party. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

08-27-2003, 11:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
Xell101 Junkie	We need more hippies, smart ones this time that can actually figure out what it is they are protestings and trying to make everyone aware of, instead of degradating into a group of useless unamerican boneheads. To briefly explain how I came to that comment, the Libertarian way of thinking makes a lot of sense, the libertarian party has some pretty wacky ideas that arne't exactly as "extreme" as the way of thinking would go to suggest they would end up being. Why? All the political parties end of basically toning down eventually into a similar way of thinking designed to operate around the same cultural May Pole. Hippies realized there was something foul going on, they didn't clearly determine what so they just became another problem to get run over and lead to more stupid people.

08-28-2003, 09:36 AM	#5 (permalink)
2wolves Psycho Location: Just outside the D.C. belt	Pure Libetarianism is about as do-able as pure communism or pure capitalism. An ideal better suited for angels than humans. 2Wolves

08-30-2003, 10:11 AM	#10 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	I can't imagine that it would be the Libertarian stance on drugs. I don't know of many intelligent adults who think that the "war on drugs" is actually working. They go out each weekend and have no problem finding a supply of x, weed, coke, or whatever else they are in the mood for. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

08-30-2003, 10:15 AM	#11 (permalink)
JcL Crazy Location: Simi Valley, CA	With the electoral college, and now with the media, the US simply is not setup in a political position that welcomes a third party. Now, the idealogy of that party can still be found present in politicians of the other parties. So I don't think the lack of popularity for the libertarian party has anything to do with actual specific issues - which is a shame but how the system works. __________________ "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

08-30-2003, 01:51 PM	#13 (permalink)
JcL Crazy Location: Simi Valley, CA	I believe he said that he was somewhat of a libertarian in some interview somewhere... But even if I'm confusing that, just look at his issues. Liberal on social issues and conservative for fiscal ones. __________________ "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth then lies." - Nietzsche

08-31-2003, 07:22 AM	#14 (permalink)
Willy Insane	Most Libertarians support drug legalization to some extent. Take a look at this test.... http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi/purity.cgi if you want to know what extreme libertarianism is about. As I have said before, any political concept can be taken too far. I scored a 50 btw. Last edited by Willy; 08-31-2003 at 07:28 AM..

08-31-2003, 08:40 AM	#15 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	The Democratic Party in the United States was formed as a vehicle for the agrarian lifetyle that was prdominant at the time. The Republican Party was a third dark horse party and was the vehicle by which Abraham Licoln gained the presidency. Third Party politics in the US are possible- Jesse Ventura was elected Governor of Minnesota on an independent ticket. Unfortunately, the Democratic Party no longer represents the "Common Man' in America and no longer speaks for the unprotected. It has become, sadly more of a Socialist movement and the main thrust of the Huge Government ideal. It has been called "Plantation Thinking": we are the slaves, the Government is the Plantation and we work for the Plantation Owners who house and feed us and on occassion extend us liberties. The Republican Party had for a while there, a very Libertarian outlook to it's position- small central government, state's rights, independence and pursuit of happiness, etc. But that whole scenario was exploded because of the oppression that was the norm in the industrial atmosphere of the early 20th century. Too much exploitation of the workers, too little control of the corporations. It is still that way. Libertarians are the third party and in the shadow of the other two because they lack a vehicle which will allow them to come to the forefront- they need PR. they need a strong figure which people can rally around on a grass roots type of swell and launch them into the social consciousness. The founders of the nation clearly understood the directions it was possible for this country to go in and gave us great warning to stay the course they began. Their biggest concern at that time was becomin re-colonized by the european interests and avoiding that occurrence. But withing 20 years of gaining our independence from Britain, we handed them our econopmy to run. Andrew Jackson foiled their plot, and Lincoln weathered the fallout and held the country together. Things went horribly wrong, however, in 1913 when we became a slave state to the European money. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

08-31-2003, 12:05 PM	#16 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	If the Libertarians could ever get their message clear, and back it up and center it with charismatic leader. They would become the most likely third party. Personally, I tend to be mostly libertarian with a bit of Dem & GOP mixed in. Unfortunately, both of the main parties have become glutted & corrupted, only concerned about pork.