boatin

After a month of reading largely the same opinions from the same people (including me!), howzabout we try something different?

What would it take for you to switch your position on something involving Iraq? Use your imagination, and be as outlandish as necessary.

For example: I believe that we shouldn't have rushed into the war on the basis that Iraq had WMD. If we found a cavern with rows of scuds full of VX, I would concede that Bush was right and I was wrong.

Going the other way: I believe that it's good to have the Iraqi people have a chance for self-rule. If we leave in 2 years (or whatever) and a massive civil war breaks out that kills millions, then I would concede that self rule might not have been the best thing.

What are your opinions, and what would it take to change them? If your opinions can't be changed, well... perhaps there is another thread for you?

Dragonlich

Well, if we don't find WMDs, I'll suspect they were handed over to Syria, of very well hidden. If that turns out to be false, I'll accept that. But, because my goal in supporting the war wasn't the WMDs, but the Iraqi people, I wouldn't care.

If the Iraqi people decide to use their freedom to kill each other, so be it. We tried to help them, and they'd fuck up themselves. They're allowed to do that. But somehow I doubt it'll happen this way.

To be totally cynical: if the Iraqis fuck up after this, and kill each other... at least we got rid of Saddam, and a potential threat to the world. And at least we tried...

maximusveritas

If we find all the WMD that we said Saddam had(or prove they had been destroyed), if we are able to restore our relationship with our allies and not become further isolated, if we are able to keep more moderates from becoming extremists, if we can bring about a stable and hopefully democratic Iraq, and if we are able to revive the economy here in the US...
Then, I will say this war has been a success and will give the Bush administration the credit it deserves for pulling off the impossible. At this point, however, I'll gladly take 1 of those ifs.

Pacifier

No, I also think they won't kill themselves, but I think that they could decide to get rid of the US in their land. Especially the Shiites don't trust the USA (which i can understand somehow)

And he was such a big thread.....


And for admitting that you're wrong, well that is always difficult. Look at some threads here people happily point their fingers at other nations to show their errors but are ridiculously blind when it comes to the errors of their nation.

But some how that quite normal I think, but still ridiculous

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— Albert Einstein

BBtB

I am never wrong. But really folks. I think the whole point is if you have enough evidence on your side for your posistion then you don't need to worry. Like I personally am in support of the war but I think it should have either happened 10 years ago OR at this point we should have waited a little longer. The reasoning behind that is basically wether or not he has any weapons of mass destruction (and it took me a second to figure out what WMD were.. then I was like ooooh) he is a bad man. His own people hate him. Maybe not all of them but enough. So if we DO find WMD then I can say "well thats all the more reason" and if we don't then.. well I never used that in my argument anyway. Beyond that I believe he does have them but he is good at hiding them and it may take us years till we come across the big stores. Plus as someone else mentioned he very easily could have passed some/all them off to other countries.

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"I would like about three fiddy"

guthmund

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Dragonlich

Gothmund: in the last 10 years, we've had UN sanctions, and Iraq ignoring them; in the last 10 years, we've had 9-11 and the resulting quest for security; in the last 10 years, the US has elected Bush; most importantly, in the last 10 years, we've had no Soviet Union to fight against, and we've had an ever increasing new threat of Muslim extremism and terrorism.

The_Dude

when you try a whole bunch arguing for a side, it's kinda hard defending the other side.

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QuasiMojo

I kinda like this take
WE KNOW NOTHING

What we are talking about here is a classic case of
THEM vs US.
We(US) don't understand Them(THEM)
They(THEM) don't understand us (US)

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AzAbOv ZoBeLoE

rock_bottom

I believe that invading Iraq, Afganistan or wherever was basically needed... but heck, our biggest investment - by far - in Afganistan was $3b oil pipeline, the guy we installed falls right into line... for now. This is how Sadam, Osama and everyone else started out, and that ended with 9/11. So I'm worried that our actions will cause us more terrorism - not less - in the future.
What would prove me wrong? Well, I'll admit that there's not a 100% chance that another 9/11 will occur - just too complex to pull off. But I certainly think there will be a lot of anti US feeling, and more terrorist attacks on a smaller scale. I guess I'd be proved wrong if the new Iraq and Aganistan governments turn out to be decent once we take our troops out.

JumpinJesus

I've been wrong numerous times. I honestly believed that our alienation of most NATO and UN nations would have led to much more hostile reactions to our going into Iraq.

On the Iraq war, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, Hussein did agree to the terms of the cease fire in 1991. By disregarding those terms, he broke the cease fire. One could argue that this was not a separate war, but just a continuation of Desert Storm after the breaking of the cease fire by Iraq.

On the other hand, regardless of what I've been told, I truly believe that George W. Bush's actions were those of avenging his father. I realize criticizing the president is not popular right now, but here goes: I don't think Bush is intelligent enough to think beyond what he is told to think by the power structure in Washington. I believe his reasonings were as simple as, "You hurt my daddy, now I hurt you."

Understand, I am fully aware that my simple belief does not mean I'm right nor do I claim that I am right. It's just what I believe.

I'm always willing to change my mind if proven wrong or if other circumstance illuminate themselves.

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4thTimeLucky

Ok, here goes. Completely out of character:

Yeeeha!
- Democracy is the only fair and equitable way to run a country and sometimes you have to inflict a little pain to make good things happen. (see surgery and S&M).
- Saddam has a Masters degree in Military History, clearly has a fetish for dangerous weapons, wants to be the most powerful ruler in the Middle East and hates the US. Quite some danger methinks.
- Saddam has brutalised, swindled and subjugated the Iraqi people for twenty or so years now. If you saw your neighbour beating up his wife, would you just sit back and watch?
- Iraq has contravened more UN resolutions than I can remember. A vote for war is a vote for the UN.
- The whole Arab region won't achieve prosperity and democracy by passivity. They need strong American intervention to ensure that there is peace and that they have the assistance and firm guiding hand to embrace better forms of government and fulfill their potential.
- The Dixie Chicks/French say it's wrong, so it must be right.

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I've been 4thTimeLucky, you've been great. Goodnight and God bless!

smooth

This point becomes increasingly reasonable to me everytime I hear one-liners like "...the capture [or surrender] of [x] who is suspected in the assassination attempt of the former president George Bush..."

boatin

thank you, 4thTimeLucky. That was the spirit I was hoping for!

This is turning out to be harder than I thought.

smooth

Once we bust OPEC with Iraqi oil output and gas drops back to 50 cents per gallon I'm going to pull my 4-Runner out of the garage and run it all over the damn country in four wheel drive.

Since I won't feel like boycotting anyone anymore (except for people who espouse anti-war, UN-American viewpoints) I'll probably drive it over to the local Wal-Mart and buy some Nike's made in a sweatshop in Iraq that pays its workers $2 bucks a day.

Hell, since my professor won't need her U.S. flag to make a point anymore I might just rip the "Made in China" tag off it and hang the damn thing off the back of my Toyota like the rest of the people in my town!

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KillerYoda

This might be fun, I'm starting to worry I'm angering too many people pointing out past USA mistakes. Time for Bizarro KillerYoda to speak:

I'm glad we invaded Iraq. Who cares if they haven't done anything lately? They gased like 300,000 Kurds a decade or so ago, that's enough proof for me. Sure, Americans killed tons of Indians when we founded this great country, but we're allowed to by God. Manifest destiny, motherfuckers!

We didn't invade to take their oil either, we went to free the people, so they can live the American dream...looting! It's all about saving people. We're gonna give them food to help end starvation. We'll get oil in return, through the "Oil for food" program, but that's just an added, unforeseen bonus.

George W. Bush knows what he's doing. He may not have left the country more than 3 times before becoming President even though his dad was head of the CIA, Vice-President, and President, but you have to trust his "good ol' boy" ideals. Cause he was born in Texas, just like me! Well, technically New Haven, Connecticut, but he owned the Texas Rangers baseball team, and even though I'm an Astros fan, you got to love someone that owns any baseball team.

God bless America, fuck the Dixie Chicks!

/end KillerYoda in War-Supporter Mode

That was fun.

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