Zeld2.0

haha damn well said pennington

smooth

Yes, but if you moved there with 30 million white people you might start to rethink that and wonder when the hell the local services are going to be in English.

rodgerd

It's pretty fucking ironic that a bunch of people who turned up, exterminated most of the locals, imposed their own language on the natives, imposed their religion, and stole the land, are now whining about other people showing up with languages and religions they find strange and frightening.

The only thing that would be more ironic is if the writer whining about Spanish was is Texas, New Mexico, or California.

Mojo_PeiPei

The way I see it with the Native Americans, it was war they lost... get over it already.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

rodgerd

Then stop bitching at the Latinos showing up and taking over the southern states.

Can't have it both ways.

Mojo_PeiPei

Well I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree. The settlers came here way back when and flourished in a generation. Those border jumpers are low class fodder.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Pennington

The settlers came here way back when and flourished in a generation.

The settlers were also given free land.

Those border jumpers are low class foder.

So all Mexican immigrants are border jumpers? Are they all predesposed to be part of the lower class? I fail to see how this isn't a racist statement.

Mojo_PeiPei

Well aren't we talking about the border jumpers and such?

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Pennington

Title of the thread "Rant on immigration."

Mojo_PeiPei

I have no beef if you come here LEGALLY and become naturalized.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Pennington

There are many immigrants that came over legally and don't speak english, my grandfather being one of them.

Charlatan

Let's face it... America needs its immigrants.

1) Who else will take the low paying wages in the service industry?
2) Who else will help stop the falling birthrate?

Get over it. Immigrants are an essential part to the growth of North America.

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- Old Man Luedecke

stinkynutz

that's just wrong, man.

I moved here from Russia when i was 12. I'm here illegally, but it's not like I had a say in it. (I'll leave the details out of this) It was not up to me.
so I sorta do fit the definition of a "border jumper."
But I sure as hell am not "low class fodder." Stereotyping people like that is simply wrong.
Since I got here, knowing very little English, i've accomplished a lot. More than a lot of Americans that were born here. In fact, many of so called "border jumpers" are far more hard-working and determined than those who are american citizens by birth.

hiredgun

You sound exactly like Ed Norton's neo-nazi character from American History X. I'm not trying to flame or piss you off, I'm seroius, those are practically words out of his mouth.

venusinfurs

why do so many people in America speak spanish..Well, maybe cus a nice 1/3 of it used to be part of Mexico or a Spanish territory...

fuck P.C. and i am sick of right winged extremist Christians and Muslims.

Strange Famous

The article above is deeply distasteful to me, and is not an accurate picture of America. The writer of the article is clearly a racist, and should be censored and prevented from publishing this sort of thing.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

And for people to talk about "American" values being white, Christian, English...

this is incredible. The values of American people from time immemorial were the values of the Indians, to live at one with nature, to worship nature - the heathens that have invaded in recent times, dispossessing the Indians, mocking their God, stealing their land.... their values, the Christian God, the Englsih language - are totally alien to the values of the real American people.

The modern America has always been a melting pot of different cultures, from the start the immigrants and settlers were not exculsively white, English, protestant - they came from all over Europe, and later all of the world, and what has made America so powerful is that it in the past was a land of opportunity for people of all cultures... of course, now we see the mentality from some immigrants, that now they get in, they do not want any more immigrants.

And an edit, for the poster of the topic - if you live in Florida, your language is FRENCH, not English, FRENCH was the official language of Florida as it was settled, not English, FRENCH.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Boo

What specifically do you find as deeply distasteful? Please support your statement.

Please understand that I come here to read the opinions of other people. I attempt to understand why they have made their comments, what fueled their emotions. I value their opinion, even though I may disagree with it.

An accurate picture of America, based on what? I have lived in 9 states, each of them have a solid conservative core that believes that the language ought to be English. Not to threadjack - /My RANT - They also believe that it is more expensive to convert all the daily government documentation to multiple language (and train gov people to read translate them) than to teach the immigrant basic english. That immigrants don't deserve a better break, education, home loan or any other benefit than a Freeborn American. They also believe that America has the right to be a little choosy about who it lets in. That America needs teachers, doctors, professionals, not just service related fields.

Yes, some of the comments are raw. Read their words a year from now and see if they have gained any wisdom.

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Back button again, I must be getting old.

Lebell

You sure are quick to want to censor people.

I'm glad you're not the grand po-bah.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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auswegian

Why should immigrants adapt to American culture /language/etc anyway? I thought America was supposed to be about freedom and liberty and all that.

As for the flag and Uncle Sam, I hardly see how those symbols would offend any newcomers, from my experiences immigrants often take pride in the nationalistic symbols of their new homeland.

I don't think the writer is a racist, just an angry, frightened person who can't cope with change and so clings to his traditions. It's perfectly normal, and its healthy for a democracy to have these sort of people speaking up. Their cause is probably doomed, so let them rant and rave if they want, it's their right.

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stevie667

if i can take a leaf out of the british book of imigration, you'll always have some bitchy immigrant who thinks that the tinyest little thing is offensive (remember the george cross on the traffic wardens hat), and because of the sheer stupidity of the leaders, they'll bend over double to try and sort this thing out so that this particular guy can be happy, but everyone else won't be. we've had councils ban the english flag because it was thought it might offend other nationalities (who were allowed to fly theirs).

immigrants shouldn't have to learn the language and culture, thats their right, but i have a big thing against them bitching when about our customs when they make no attempt to try and intergrate.

Strange Famous

"invasion", "conquest", "genocide" would be rather more appropriate terms. if this is your logic than every resource in the world belongs to whoever is strong enough to take it by brute force.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Strange Famous

There is no wisdom in this article, merely hostility, mean spiritedness, heterophobia and disgust.

Is this how the "land of the free" should prove itself so? By forcing those who come in to worship Your god, to speak your language, to subscribe to your cultural values?

Religion should be an individual choice, there is no place for religious indoctrination in any school or public building - it is not for the state to determine who the individual calls God.

Language is a key tie to people's culture, their difference, and inviduality - attempting to destroy language and create conformity is akin to cultural vandalism, it is a hate crime.

Immigrants - all white American's are immigrants - should not be so quick to want to close the gates as soon as they are inside. The persecution, poverty, famine that most of the people who came to America fled from still exists in the world - whats the difference, that the people starving or being persecuted arent so white now?

The article at the start is designed at one thing, dehumanizing outsiders, "oh, they are not like us, they dont speak like us, they come here to take our jobs, they come here to get welfare to take our taxes..." this is the worst kind of politics, and yes it should be censored. When public words seek to do harm, or incite harm, on groups in society, especially the most vulnerable groups, they should be censored.

And sad is it may be, the St George's cross is a racist symbol now, because racist groups have captured it and made it their own - it doesnt mean pride in England, it means soccer hooliganism, racism, skinheads and hate.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Tomservo

I agree to some degree. There are lots of dangerous drivers in the San Fernando Valley (where I live) who simply cannot READ that the sign says "STOP" or "Speed Limit 35".

There's no excuse to not learn the language native to the land you choose to inhabit. Most of us when traveling abroad find it fun and interesting to learn a bit of the French, Japanese, Italian, so on. We celebrate this difference in culture because we respect the difference. Not in our backyard, though.

"Nehmen ein stuch papier raus!" (All I recall from German class)
"Quando ero piccolo, leggevo i libri della favola. Un giorno, mentre guardavo un film, mi sono ricordato i buoni libri." (I suck at Italian)

Lebell

It's been a few years since I've read Sir Winston's "History of the English Speaking People", but as I recall, England went through some conquerings with the Saxons, Angles, Normans, etc.

Are you 100% positive you're a native Briton, Strange Famous? Or are you just a victorious squatter on lands that originally belonged to someone else??

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Strange Famous

Of course, the British Isles were invaded and populated many times by different tribes; the case is rather less blurred with America though.

It was a land populated by the Indians, invaded by the Spanish, and then the rest of Europe, in modern history - the difference with Briton is that by and large the cultures of the various tribes and invadors, over time, merged into each other - where as in America one culture virtually destroyed and dispossed another.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Lebell

Of course the case is less blurred...but only be virtue of the fact that the British have had about a 1000 years, give or take a few hundred to blend together.

America has had, what, about 200 years, give or take a few depending on what area of the country you're in?

Heck, even in Briton you still get groups that strongly identify as cultural groups; e.g. the Welsh, the Scotts, the Irish, etc.

My own feeling is that our "melting pot" is our greatest strength and our greatest weakness.

As you've correctly pointed out, in Briton, there is a blending. This is what allows the decendants from all those tribes from so long ago to live in relative harmony today

But isn't this exactly what the original author wants immigrants to do?? Blend and make ONE culture instead of creating what amounts to tribal enclaves?

But for this, he is called "racist".

Well, if THAT is some people's definition of racist; to want a unified culture where differences are celebrated, but not focused on, where we speak one unifying language in our official business, where immigrants are welcomed but not catered too, then sign me up. I must be "racist" too.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Strange Famous

The article is not talking about a blending of cultures, it is saying "you are not welcome in America unless you educate your children in places where they pray to our God, unless you stip practising all those un-American customs you have where you come from, unless you speak like us, unless you want to sing our anthem and salute our flag"


I mean, when you read this, how do you reconcile it to your statements of a "melting pot" of "celebrating differences"?

The article is mean to create hostility to people who look different, act different, talk different, pray to different Gods... a state has the right to the rule of law, but not to tell people what to believe of what their culture should be. People who come to America should be subject to American law, if English is not their strongest langauge, there should be support for them to learn, and also support so that they can actually understand the law and what they are entitled to,,, because we understand that when one says "all offical documents in English" this means that if you speak Spanish you probably wont be able to claim welfare/benefits that you are entitled to, that you may be exploited in the workplace because you dont understand your rights and no one seems to represent you.

American culture is unique, because it has no real roots in history of the land, but it is a constant flux of so many different influances, and this has been a great strength of America. The goal is to encourage this, the goal is that the American dream be as open now to people who are hopeless and cannot find their home in their own land as it was 150 years ago.

The article demonstrates a staggering or willful ignorance of history, refusing to accept that the "American culture" that they talk of IS the culture of immigrants. America was not a Christian country, it was filled with people who worshipped nature, America is not a capitalist country, it was filled with peasants who lived form the land, America is not a democratic country, it was filled with tribal communist societies. Everything that this article calls America is the European incarnation of America, a very recent and modern creation.

Again, this article leaves a bad taste in my mouth, it is hateful and hostile - filled with statements that amount to saying "you are not welcome, your kind are not welcome"

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Lebell

We must be reading different articles.

Because I see the flag, the anthem, the national motto, etc. to BE our culture that we have built.

And we welcome those who want to come here and celebrate it with us.

But I also do not welcome those who want to come here and want us to accommodate them at the expense of that culture.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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SLM3

This has been an interesting thread. As a Canadian, I am fiercely proud of the fact that my country is considered multicultural, and not a melting pot. I've learnt so much of other cultures do to this fact and have myself become a broader minded person because I've learned to adapt to their culture as they adapt to mine. Visiting communities and partaking in their traditional activities has produce a number of great experiences for me.

I, for one, am glad I don't get to be lazy while others struggle just to fit my preferences. I hope that never changes.



SLM3

Lebell

Don't take this personally, but your post about Canada is the ultimate irony and reason I don't want that particular brand of "multiculturalism".

I have no desire to go through down here with four or five distinct cultures what you go through up there with two.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Boo

We welcome new people to America every day. We participate in exchange programs. We support charity programs all over the world.

You continually speak of your being in touch with mainstream America, but you continually make outlandish statments. Statements that show you are uninformed as to the feelings of Americans.

Is it wrong to ask someone from an impoverished nation or a political refugee to learn enough of your language so that they can integrate sucessfully in to the day to day requirements of being a citizen WITHOUT catering to their every need. If I were in their shoes I would GLADLY go to night school and learn a bit of the native tongue so that I could vote, earn a wage and purchase a home under the safety of the American flag. I would also make sure that my children could speak the language of their heritage. CITIZENSHIP HAS RESPONSIBILITIES!

I see no mention of religion in my response. I have no idea what so ever why you would post this. I do however agree with your statement and add:
And also the right to choose to NOT worship the god, sun, devil ar tree.

Already answered the language issue, please keep your thoughts together. Hate crime, I don't hate another language or that a person uses it and I hope that the culture has the backbone to not lose its language. Ever hear of BILINGUAL?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=BILINGUAL

Under your thought process, ALL AMERICANS ARE IMMIGRANTS. Even the "Native Americans", they got here sometime from somewhere.

I am NOT an immigrant, I was born here.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=immigrant

A cross means different things to different people. If you have personally taken it upon yourself to change your internal meaning of the cross, then its on you.

You are so quick to censor. Everyone is inciting a riot or belittling someone else.

I, like others am glad you are not in charge. Your statements reveal that you have not tolerance for any opinions but your own.

Citizenship has responsibilities. Google it.

SLM3

Which two distinct cultures would that be?



SLM3

Lebell

You're not serious, right?

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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SLM3

Thanks for the overly condescending end to this thread for me, Mr. Super Moderator. It's been a blast.



SLM3

Lebell

I'm sorry you took it that way, but I was being completely serious.

To me the problems that Canada has with the competing French and English cultures is so obvious, I simply couldn't believe you were being serious.

Again, I'm sorry that you took offense.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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SLM3

Do you really think French culture is what contrasts English culture the most out here in Vancouver, Edmonton, and Calgary?




SLM3

Lebell

Could you rephrase that? I don't understand the question.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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stevie667

um, they're actually different countries, and the Irish republic isn't part of Great Britain anyway.

as for the idea of britain merging together from several different cultures over several thousand years is also rather stupid. over history, there have been several instances where the indigenous culture has been merged with an invading one over a few hundred years, only for the process to be repeated again (romans, saxons, vikings), and it was only really after the normans that the culture settled down and evolved how it is today, so no bitching about time already.

Lebell

The last time I looked at a map, Scotland and Wales were firmly in the UK, as was Northern Ireland.

And I'm sorry, but I don't see that you provided any argument against what I said other than, "I don't agree", which is valid as far as it goes, but not convincing to me.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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