jewels

Full article: Thor Halvorssen: United Nations: It's Okay to Kill the Gay

What are the politics behind this? While I understand that there are many nations that are perpetual human rights violators, I don't understand why the greater powers don't stand up.

What am I missing?

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Slims

IMHO it draws a pretty clear line between the countries who value life and those who do not.

I am not at all surprised at the breakdown.

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mixedmedia

I don't know what to say. it's depressing. but not terribly surprising.
I suppose we could have done things differently in the past to avoid this.
but it's a little late for that now.

sorry to be so morose but I can't think of a way to be optimistic about it.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

tasineah

I wonder how you all would feel if we non straights started executing the heterosexuals of the world. I can betcha there wouldnt be apathy...

piss my britches right off of me when I hear shit like this and the apathetic learned helpless crap of the heterosexual priveleged...

Hektore

Bullshit likes this makes me ashamed to be a human being.

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mixedmedia

I would feel about the same way.
I'm not apathetic in the least. I'm just tired.
I'm really tired of hearing about people dying for nothing and I don't give a fuck who they sleep with. You're upset that people aren't expressing an appropriate amount of outrage about something that matters to you? Well take a ticket and get in line.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

SecretMethod70

Look, I agree this is absolutely horrible, but I don't know what people expect of the UN here. The five permanent members of the Security Council have no veto power over a vote like this, so there's nothing to be done. This is the international version of a Republican Congress voting against equal marriage rights. I obviously strongly disagree with the vote, but when you consider the make up of the UN General Assembly it's not all that surprising, just like it wouldn't/won't be surprising to see a Republican Congress vote against equal marriage rights.

I think there's a decent argument that many of these countries shouldn't have been allowed to be voting members of the UN, but it's unfortunately too late for that at this point.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

jewels

So does this mean that every country has an equal vote? If so, that's interesting. The article seems to pinpoint the majority of anti-gay sentiment came from the smaller, less civilized nations.

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

The_Dunedan

It does. However, the UN assigns each nation a vote, no matter how atrocious their records on the subject at hand. The UN is also remarkably unwilling to label any act committed by non-white persons as Genocide (that's something only Evil White People do, nevermind Darfur). If you're looking for the UN to actually take a meaningful stand in favour of Human Rights, forget it. The UN, being a Democracy, is effectively run by the majority in any vote (the obvious exception being US vetoes on matters Israeli), and that "majority" in the UN is composed in the main of tin-horn dictatorships, petty theocracies, corporatist kleptocracies, and various forms of majoritarian Statism. None of these are economic/social systems renowned for defending Human Rights, let alone the Rights of their respective minorities. There's a -reason- that UN peacekeepers have been so heavily involved in drug/human trafficking, prostitution, and turning blind eyes to every manner of abuse: because the victims are people whom their country's UN Representatives wished gone.

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--Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

Derwood

Upholding their own Declaration of Human Rights would be a good start

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FoolThemAll

If that's the most striking parallel to be drawn, then we're doing pretty damn well.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

SecretMethod70

We, as in the US? Yes, I don't think anyone would argue that we're doing pretty damn well in terms of freedom relative to the rest of the world.

jewels: Yes, on matters that are decided by the UNGA, each member country gets one vote. The thing to remember is that not all countries of the world are members of the UN - they have to be accepted in. I think that's a reasonable place to identify what went wrong. Accepting a country into the UN allows the other member countries to have more influence and provides a safe forum for diplomacy, but it seems they* forgot to pay attention to the balance of the organization while adding new countries.

*Of course, "they" is the already existing list of UN member states (candidate states are recommended by the UNSC and voted on by the UNGA), so this is somewhat of a chicken and the egg issue.

Derwood: Of course. Unfortunately, just like the US legislative branch doesn't always uphold its constitution, the UN can clearly lose sight of its goals as well.

---

The UN has been going through some serious growing pains over the last couple decades as it shifts it has shifted its focus to peacekeeping. It doesn't help that the member countries which are most able to help the UN achieve its goals are also often the least willing to provide that help (US included). In short, I agree that the UN is broken (I don't think it's unfixable, but it does need an overhaul), but the US and other western nations bear the brunt of that fault, as much as we'd like to pretend that's not the case. This extends beyond our lack of willingness to participate our fair share, but also to our (and others') willingness to manipulate the UN system for our own interests (can you say vetoing any and every condemnation of Israel? - of course, that also has a lot to do with the flawed concept of a permanent veto in the first place).

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

mixedmedia

Because, honestly, I don't know much about the UN, I could only assume that this vote was made possible by those with the most power in the UN putting human rights issues lower on the 'prioritized list of favorable characteristics' than other interests. And from what you're saying I guess that's pretty close to the truth. If I could remember one right now, I might add one of those quotes about 'the company you keep' here.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

SecretMethod70

I assume you mean favorable characteristics of membership? If so, yes. That said, I don't remember if recommending a state for membership is considered a substantive or procedural matter, so it's possible that the P5 don't have veto power over that issue. In which case, I imagine it's pretty easy to find 9 of the 15 UNSC members to recommend any given state, and the more that happens and those states get accepted by the UNGA, the more likely it is that the next state will be accepted too. Currently, all internationally recognized states are members of the UN (it has been that way for awhile, though I don't remember how long exactly). It's a nice ideal, and there are benefits, but as we can see it is not without its downsides.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

mixedmedia

Yes. Like I said, I know very little about how membership into the UN is decided. By my thinking, it would seem that a nation would have to show (at least) the motivation to adhere to the principles set forth in the UN charter to be up for election. Of course, looking again at the member nations, I suppose that isn't the case.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

SecretMethod70

Theoretically they do, but that's clearly not what has happened in practice :/

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

GreyWolf

To western and/or more socially advanced societies, this is indeed a sad, sad situation. But it really should be expected from the UN. Far from living up to its initial premise, the entire organisation has degenerated into a group of voting blocs, the most cohesive of which is the Islamic bloc. Whereas much of the rest of the world tends to vote with an eye to their own best interests, many (not all) of the "Islamic" states have self-identified as Islamic-first, geographic region second. As a result, their religious-centric view results in a large bloc of common votes, many of which don't represent that many people.

There are other examples and this is not to say this decision is strictly an Islamic one... very conservative, non-Islamic nations also supported it.

But consider, the 5 most populous nations in the world: China, India, USA, Indonesia & Brazil, representing over 3.2 billion people only have 5 votes between them in the General Assembly. So do Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, and the United Arab Emirates, with a total population of 12 million, giving them a vote more than 250 times that of the first 5 nations on a proportional basis. Without looking at the actual vote, I would bet that the latter 5 voted as a bloc.

With this disproportionate representation, it is easy for conservative societies and/or the regional or sectarian voting blocs to approve policies that are actually unacceptable to the majority of the world; as happens all too frequently, sad to say.

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mrmacq

UN deletes gay reference from anti-execution measures - Pink News

but hold on
(i just knew there was something wrong here)

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnically, racial or religious group, as such:
Convention on Genocide

now seems to me
those strange fruit down south
hanging from the trees
is a bit more in tune with the UNs meanings

should there have been a un presence?
no matter that country's attitude?

or is that somehow different?
(we shall await somewhat patiently)

perhaps its this one we should be discussing
"
Signatories to the UN declaration on sexual orientation and gender identity

The proposed United Nations declaration on sexual orientation and gender identity is a Dutch/French-initiated, European Union-backed statement presented to the United Nations General Assembly on 18 December 2008.

The statement, originally intended to be adopted as resolution, prompted an Arab League-backed statement opposing it. Both statements remain open for signature and neither of them has been officially adopted by the United Nations General Assembly.

The proposed declaration includes a condemnation of violence, harassment, discrimination, exclusion, stigmatization, and prejudice based on sexual orientation and gender identity that undermine the integrity and dignity. It also includes condemnation of killings and executions, torture, arbitrary arrest, and deprivation of economic, social, and cultural rights on those grounds.

ah heh heh

lets see where the yanks voted?

anyone?

(The United States became the 63d nation to sign the convention, which was adopted by the UN General Assembly in December 1984 )
U.S. signs UN convention against torture | US Department of State Bulletin | Find Articles at BNET

but back to it

In the declaration text, para 7 that "we recall the statement in 2006 before the Human Rights Council by fifty four countries requesting the President of the Council to provide an opportunity, at an appropriate future session of the Council, for discussing these violations." and para 8 that "we commend the attention paid to those issues by special procedures of the Human Rights Council and treaty bodies and encourage them to continue to integrate consideration of human rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity within their relevant mandate.", indicate The Yogyakarta Principles which provide definitions in detail on sexual orientation and on gender identity as a document on international human rights law,[1] despite the Principles are not referred directly."
UN declaration on sexual orientation and gender identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

now why some feel it pertinent to accuse
based solely on their detestation of the UN
the supposed failings thereof ?.....

well i remain confused

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never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards

mixedmedia

I have to admit you have me confused, too.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

mrmacq

not to worry
heres the intro
The UN has a remarkable track record of doing virtually nothing when presented with mass killings or genocide. "Never again!" was the cry after the holocaust. Since then, the world has witnessed a dozen more never agains with strong condemnation from the UN coming after the corpses pile up. A resolution of the sort that was voted on in the General Assembly is significant for its clarity of message: "It's okay to kill the gays."

but obviously thats under a different heading than genocide
as this poster quoted blog would have you think

the "gay thing"
was only thrown up for vote recently
"Signatories to the UN declaration on sexual orientation and gender identity

The proposed United Nations declaration on sexual orientation and gender identity is a Dutch/French-initiated, European Union-backed statement presented to the United Nations General Assembly on 18 December 2008."

-----------

Nations on four continents are coordinating the statement, including: Argentina, Brazil, Croatia, France, Gabon, Japan, the Netherlands, and Norway. The reading of the statement will be the first time the General Assembly has formally addressed rights violations based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

------------

"In 1948 the world's nations set forth the promise of human rights, but six decades later, the promise is unfulfilled for many," said Linda Baumann of Namibia, a board member of Pan Africa ILGA, a coalition of over 60 African lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) groups. "The unprecedented African support for this statement sends a message that abuses against LGBT people are unacceptable anywhere, ever."
United Nations: General assembly to address sexual orientation and gender identity - Statement affirms promise of Universal Declaration of Human Rights
oops
sorta throws a wrench into the ops statement
-----------
"Today, dozens of countries still criminalize consensual homosexual conduct, laws that are often relics of colonial rule,"
----
oh my

The statement also builds on a long record of UN action to defend the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. In its 1994 decision in Toonen v. Australia, the UN Human Rights Committee -- the body that interprets the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), one of the UN's core human rights treaties -- held that human rights law prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation.

damn eh?

but lets let them blather on
on how its the UNs fault
instead of looking inward

(dont make me post it)

So far, 55 countries have signed onto the General Assembly statement. Others include: Andorra, Armenia, Australia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Canada, Cape Verde, the Central African Republic, Chile, Ecuador, Georgia, Iceland, Israel, Japan, Liechtenstein, Mexico, Montenegro, New Zealand, San Marino, Serbia, Switzerland, the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Uruguay, and Venezuela. All 27 member states of the European Union are also signatories.
United Nations: General assembly to address sexual orientation and gender identity - Statement affirms promise of Universal Declaration of Human Rights

so whos suspiciously absent?

try as i might
cant find their name as a signatory
please someone help me out
tell me its not so

__________________
never stop questioning,curiosity has its own rewards