george w. bush and how not to plagiarize your autobiography - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

roachboy · 11-15-2010, 09:41 AM

this is really pretty funny. read on...

Quote:

George Bush accused of borrowing from other books in his memoirs

Former US president's Decision Points contains anecdotes seemingly lifted from books by several authors

* Chris McGreal in Washington
* guardian.co.uk, Sunday 14 November 2010 19.24 GMT

George W Bush Former president George Bush has been accused of borrowing from other books in his memoirs. Photograph: Al Behrman/AP

George Bush's memoirs were billed as offering "gripping, never before heard detail" of his time in the White House.

Now it appears that Decision Points is not so much the former president's memoirs as other people's cut and pasted memories.

Bush's account is littered with anecdotes seemingly ripped off from other books and articles, even borrowing without attribution – some might say plagiarising – from critical accounts the White House had previously denounced as inaccurate.

The Huffington Post noted a remarkable similarity between previously published writings and Bush's colourful anecdotes from events at which he had not been present.

Bush borrows heavily from Bob Woodward's account Bush at War, which the White House criticised as inaccurate when it was published in 2002. He also appears to take chunks from a book written by his former press secretary Ari Fleischer.

Bush recounts a meeting between Hamid Karzai and a Tajik warlord on the Afghan president's inauguration day, which he used as an example of hope for the future of the country.

The former president writes: "When Karzai arrived in Kabul for his inauguration on 22 December – 102 days after 9/11 – several Northern Alliance leaders and their bodyguards greeted him at an airport.

"As Karzai walked across the tarmac alone, a stunned Tajik warlord asked where all his men were.

"Karzai responded: 'Why, General, you are my men. All of you who are Afghans are my men.'"

The Huffington Post notes that the account and the quote are lifted almost verbatim and without attribution from a New York Review of Books article by Ahmed Rashid.

Bush also lifts a quote from an interview John McCain gave to the Washington Post on Iraq and then presents it as though McCain had said it to him.

Even where Bush is present and is quoting himself, he appears to have had his memory jogged by the accounts of others without finding much to add.

Many of the borrowed lines are taken from Woodward's Bush at War, with the former president's accounts of meetings bearing a striking similarity to Woodward's.

Bush's publisher has suggested that only confirms the accuracy of Decision Points. Others have suggested it is a reflection of two traits the former president was often criticised for – lack of original thought and laziness.

Bush also quotes Woodward's writings almost word for word in places. Where Woodward writes: "The second option combined cruise missiles with manned bomber attacks," Bush says: "The second option was to combine cruise missile strikes with manned bomber attacks."

And where Woodward's book says: "The third and most robust option was cruise missiles, bombers and what the planners had taken to calling 'boots on the ground'," Bush says: "The third and most aggressive option was to employ cruise missiles, bombers and boots on the ground."

Bush manages to remember exactly the same shouts as Woodward from the crowd at Ground Zero after the 9/11 attacks – "Do not let me down!" and "Whatever it takes" – even though there must have been a slew of them.

He appears to have borrowed from the memoirs of Fleischer in relating an anecdote about a hospital visit to meet injured survivors of the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon.

Striking similarities between Decision Points and other writings, uncovered by the Huffington Post website

• In Decision Points, Bush describes the inauguration of Hamid Karzai, which he did not attend: "As Karzai walked across the tarmac alone, a stunned Tajik warlord asked where all his men were. Karzai said: 'Why, General, you are my men. All of you who are Afghans are my men.'"

•From Ahmed Rashid's The Mess in Afghanistan in the New York Review of Books, as related personally to him by Karzai: "As the two men shook hands on the tarmac, Fahim [the Tajik warlord] looked confused. 'Where are your men?' he asked. Karzai turned to him in his disarmingly gentle manner of speaking. 'Why General,' he replied, 'You are my men – all of you are Afghans and are my men …'"

• From Decision Points: "The second option was to combine cruise missile strikes with manned bomber attacks."

•From Bob Woodward's Bush at War: "The second option combined cruise missiles with manned bomber attacks."

• From Decision Points: "The third and most aggressive option was to employ cruise missiles, bombers and boots on the ground."

• From Bush At War: "The third and most robust option was cruise missiles, bombers and what the planners had taken to calling 'boots on the ground.'"

• Decision Points: "One man yelled: 'Do not let me down!' Another shouted straight at my face: 'Whatever it takes.'"

• From Bush at War: "'Whatever it takes,' they shouted. One pointed to [Bush] as he walked by and yelled out: 'Don't let me down.'"

• From Decision Points, quoting John McCain in a manner that suggests he is talking to the then president: "'I cannot guarantee success,' he said, 'But I can guarantee failure if we don't adopt this new strategy.'"

•From an interview by McCain with the Washington Post in 2007: "'I cannot guarantee success, but I can guarantee failure if we don't adopt this new strategy,' he said.'"

George Bush accused of borrowing from other books in his memoirs | World news | The Guardian

and a link to the huffington post story:

George Bush Book 'Decision Points' Lifted From Advisers' Books

if i could imagine cowboy george to be a person of principle, i'd be inclined to think of this as an exemplary act of cultural suicide, a kind of hara kiri in book form.

if i could imagine the plagiarism as a kind of confession, a revealing of bush's inner-most mediocrity, but staged with a degree of self-awareness, so a move directed at self-destruction, i'd admire it.

if i could imagine this as an act of political sabotage carried out by the ghost writers hired on to make the memoirs, i'd applaud it.

if i could imagine it as a conceptual action, it'd be kinda awesome.

but it's none of those things.

still, there's something remarkable about this newest moment in the ongoing saga of shabby, careless thinking typical of contemporary conservatism in general and of the bush people in particular.

it's remarkable in its intellectual and editorial laziness, characteristics that sum up the stifling mediocrity of the bush administration, which seemed full of people for whom this sort of lazy plagiarism that'd get a frat boy undergraduate suspended for a semester or more was a way of life. and its even more remarkable in it's cluelessness, both on the part of whomever wrote the "memoirs" but also on the part of whomever edited them.

but what do you think?
are you planning on reading bush's memoirs?
have you read them?
what did you think?

at this point i'm still thinking the only way i'd read this book is if i stole it from the crime section of a bookstore.

but maybe i'll read it. i just don't want to buy it.

kramus · 11-15-2010, 10:03 AM

I read a brief quote online regarding GWB's words and actions on 9/11. For me the language seemed both overwrought and very targeted towards a god-fearing middle america - at the same time it demonstrated no ability to lead or think in such a critical and (dare I say) historically pregnant juncture. Couldn't properly finish reading the article.

I'll stick to bits'n'bites doled out by literary masochists or desperate seekers of value who will steel their bellies and grip their noses and dive headlong into this latest bit of thoroughly filtered whatever. I'm pretty sure the book will lack any vestige of the personal charm and ability GWB must exhibit in person (he simply couldn't have been chosen to be the GOP's figurehead without possessing such attributes).

roachboy · 11-15-2010, 10:21 AM

i was thinking about this...when i taught university from time to time i'd get sucked into dealing with plagiarism. there had to be something that tipped it, though, a phrase or argument that you reading either recognized from somewhere or assumed could not possibly have come from the writer.

what mystifies me about this is that it seems the main sources cribbed from included woodward's book. so one of the most well-known journalistic accounts of the iraq war period bush white house.

a review from the front page of the ny review of books as a source?
collaged newspaper accounts that are accessible with rudimentary web searches?

if you are going to get away from plagiarism, you typically do not try to get caught.
this is like stealing from the textbook from the class you're taking.
(which has happened.)

you really have to wonder what's going on with this. it seems almost designed to implode, the memoir. like a conceptual action. the sort of thing that makes me wish i had been the person hired to ghost write. because i like to think i'd have done this. but of course if it's just the ghost writer, then that forecloses things a bit.
and there is the option, i suppose, should this get out of hand, of throwing the ghost writer under the bus.

or you might imagine that bush is staging himself as a kind of zelig character, someone utterly without qualities independent of the situation in which he finds himself, so a kind of pure function, someone who is, literally, just there. in which case, he should own up to the procedures.

and keep in mind that i have no problem with collage as a technique, no problem with tampering with the form of autobiography, no problem with mocking the conventions of literary "authenticity"---but this guy's not doing any of that.

what he is doing is the rounds of talk shows on each of which he brags about having written this himself.

it's very very strange.

Tully Mars · 11-15-2010, 12:09 PM

I really never thought he ran the first 6 years of his presidency I guess it's no surprise he'd let someone else write his autobiography.

SecretMethod70 · 11-15-2010, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I really never thought he ran the first 6 years of his presidency I guess it's not surprised he'd let someone else write his autobiography.

QFT

aceventura3 · 11-15-2010, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

this is really pretty funny. read on...

but maybe i'll read it. i just don't want to buy it.

So connecting the dots, when someone tells you what to think, then it is what you think? Read the books, read the article, then tell us about the theories of contemporary conservatism, until then isn't it all just your imagination? Gee, and the this talkly talk about intellectual curiosity. Imagine, doing your homework and putting your own thoughts together, perhaps we need a poll to prove Bush haters with an agenda actually have credibility.

roachboy · 11-15-2010, 01:18 PM

ace, dear, plagiarism doesn't require that one read the book. plagiarism is demonstrable empirically and both the guardian and huffington post articles provide that demonstration.

there's no argument about whether this occurred or not.
and it really is not important whether you like it or not.

the proof is there.
deal with that for once.

aceventura3 · 11-15-2010, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

ace, dear, plagiarism doesn't require that one read the book. plagiarism is demonstrable empirically and both the guardian and huffington post articles provide that demonstration.

there's no argument about whether this occurred or not.
and it really is not important whether you like it or not.

the proof is there.
deal with that for once.

You made your conclusion, are you certain? Or, like I suggested, "they" told you what to think and now that is what you think?

To me plagiarism is a serious charge, but like many "isms" some simply don't take them serious. Even if someone made that charge against you, I would do my own homework before agreeing with the conclusion. Is that step not necessary in your book?

roachboy · 11-15-2010, 02:08 PM

read the evidence, ace. an undergraduate would be thrown out of university for that stuff. i've seen it happen for less.

again, though, it's astonishing that people have argued it's woodward's book about the bush administration that's one of the major sources that are used without acknowledgment.

why would anyone would use the best-selling book about the administration to come out so far as a source to crib from?
it's like begging to get caught.

i'm curious about the explanation.

don't you find this strange, ace? even you must find it strange.

btw: how "serious" plagiarism is varies with context. like i said, a student at university would be thrown out for less than this. in the wider world, much depends on context, on questions like the kind of project is in question, in how that project is understood by cultural mediators, what the rules of the game for producing that kind of project are and who enforces them. my own relation to the idea of plagiarism varies alot with context.

but the rules of the game for a straight autobiography pretty clearly don't leave alot of space for plagiarism.
ironic relations to that form can.
but not if you play it straight.

there's something really odd happening here.
i don't have enough information yet to be able to figure out what it is. i suppose sooner or later we'll know.

ring · 11-15-2010, 02:34 PM

I do kinda wonder about the ghost writer/s & the editor who gave this the green light.

A masterminded collusion perhaps?
or just an even more pitiful ending... the cherry on top of Bush's pathetic history.

P.S. Your Zelig comparison is .....yes.

Wes Mantooth · 11-15-2010, 11:21 PM

Jesus Christ.

W, the gift that just keeps on giving. Honestly the man's presidency was like an 8 year long, never ending Christopher Guest mockumentary. The plagiarism in his own autobiography just makes for the perfect "where are they now" scene to tack on at the end and send the audience home with a smile.

Brilliant, I hope they start filming soon.

Tully Mars · 11-16-2010, 02:56 AM

So would that film be a crime drama or a comedy?

mixedmedia · 11-16-2010, 03:07 AM

I'm getting more and more confused about these real American values.

roachboy · 11-16-2010, 05:12 AM

it's hard to imagine "real american values" applying to a zelig, isn't it?
besides, those are for the little people.
when you're one of the high rollers, anything goes.
it's the little people's fault for not knowing that, really.

but then again, it's not unusual for the servants to take their fantasies about the lives of their masters far more seriously than they take the lives of their masters. think about samouri films. slaves who actually believed the construction they made for themselves to account for how those with power lived. they were useful then they weren't then they were tossed aside. they hung around for a while, got in a bunch of fights and eventually either became masters and abandoned what the samourai believed or they died out.

that's a nice story and i'm glad i told it.

aceventura3 · 11-16-2010, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

read the evidence, ace.

Is the only evidence, the evidence cited in the article?

If two people recount the same conversation or the same presentation of information and both put it in writing, is the second person guilty of plagiarism?

If a reporter conducts an interview (not a party to actual events) writes an account based on the interview and then the person who actually was involved writes an account of the events - how do you consider the later guilty of plagiarism?

Certainty is lacking in this accusation, in my opinion and before I would make a charge of plagiarism I would need more than what you presented, including actually reading both books.

---------- Post added at 05:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I'm getting more and more confused about these real American values.

If someone stole my work, I would file a lawsuit or seek some other form of recourse. If this is as certain as some think it is, it would be a simple matter to resolve. On so many occasions people would grand-stand about how Bush violated laws, lied, stole, and denied people rights. On every occasion the talk was nothing but talk, and no one every took action. Is that a liberal value - talk, talk, talk and do nothing?

Baraka_Guru · 11-16-2010, 09:57 AM

Even with plagiarism aside, intellectual dishonesty is an issue (though this isn't as much of a surprise):

Quote:

Bush memoir makes selective use of Iraq data

Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, November 16, 2010

In his memoir "Decision Points," former president George W. Bush passionately defends his 2003 decision to invade Iraq, citing, among other things, a Jan. 27, 2003, report to the U.N. Security Council by Hans Blix, the Swedish director of the U.N. inspectors who had spent two months looking for Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.

But Bush makes selective use of Blix's January report, citing elements that support the idea that Hussein was not cooperating and leaving out parts that indicate his government was. More to the point, however, Bush fails to mention two subsequent Blix pre-invasion reports in February and early March, weeks before U.S. bombs struck Baghdad. Those show Iraq cooperating with inspectors and the inspectors finding no significant evidence that Hussein was hiding such arms programs.

A bit of context: In summer and fall 2002, Bush had to be talked into going to the United Nations for a new resolution that, when passed in November 2002, called on Iraq to submit a "currently accurate, full and complete declaration" of weapons of mass destruction. It also opened the way for Blix to begin inspections where, as Bush writes, "the burden of proof rested with Saddam. The inspectors did not have to prove that he had weapons. He had to prove he did not."

Bush's goal for the U.N. inspections was described to Bob Woodward by Bush during an on-the-record interview on Dec. 10, 2003, in the residence portion of the White House. Bush told Woodward, according to a transcript, that he and British Prime Minister Tony Blair "have crafted a very intrusive inspection regime . . . which Blair and I were hoping would cause there to be a crumbling within the regime." That did not happen.

Instead, after a slow beginning in late November 2002, Blix's inspectors began work in earnest in January 2003 with 100 inspectors in Iraq. His Jan. 27 report to the Security Council was Blix's first major update on what he had found. In his book, Bush summed up the findings, saying Blix's teams "had discovered warheads that Saddam failed to declare or destroy, indications of the highly toxic VX nerve agent, and precursor chemicals for mustard gas." He also wrote, "The Iraqi government was defying the inspection process," citing Baghdad's "blocking of U-2 flights and hiding three thousand documents in the home of an Iraqi official."

Bush concluded with Blix's statement that day: "Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today of the disarmament that was demanded of it." In fact, Blix made that statement introducing his Jan. 27 report and related it to Iraq's attitude toward the 1991 U.N. resolution and subsequent ones that dealt with inspections. He compared Iraq's past cooperation as "withheld or grudgingly given," with that of South Africa, which decided to eliminate its nuclear weapons and welcomed inspections, and in that context said Baghdad had not yet "come to a genuine acceptance . . . of disarmament."

Bush left out that Blix later said, "Iraq has on the whole cooperated rather well so far" with inspectors. "The most important point to make is that access has been provided to all sites we have wanted to inspect and with one exception it has been prompt."

Blix on Jan. 27 also made less of the discovered warheads that were designed to deliver chemicals but had no such agents in them. He noted that there were only "a number," reported as 11 when the find had been publicized earlier that month. Blix reported that the Iraqis said the warheads had been overlooked in 1991 when about 2,000 were stored at that ammunition dump during the Persian Gulf War. Blix also said the Iraqis thereafter carried out their own investigation and later reported finding four additional chemical rockets at another site.

As for the VX, Blix said that "indications" pointed to Iraq having worked on problems of purifying and stabilizing the poison and perhaps weaponizing it, but that none of the agent was found. The mustard gas precursor chemicals? Blix said inspectors found only one - "a laboratory quantity of thiodiglycol" at one site.

Blix called the U-2 issue "a problem" because the Iraqis would not guarantee the safety of the U.N. aircraft, but he added, "I hope this attitude will change." It did shortly thereafter. The 3,000 pages of documents, not 3,000 documents, found in the search of a nuclear scientist's home worried Blix. But he told the Security Council that the Iraqis said it represented a researcher bringing papers from the workplace. Bush's attempt in his book to say that Blix's Jan. 27 report proved inspections were failing omits the two later prewar inspection reports that raised serious questions about whether U.S. intelligence and that of other countries were correct about Iraq's having prohibited weapons programs.

Blix reported on Feb. 14, 2003, that he had conducted 400 inspections at more than 300 sites without advance notice and without Iraqi interference. Although many proscribed weapons and items had not been accounted for, so far his inspectors had "not found any such weapons, only a small number of empty chemical munitions, which should have been declared and destroyed."

In his March 7, 2003, report, 12 days before the first U.S. and coalition attack, Blix reported on a "significant Iraqi effort underway to clarify a major source of uncertainty as to the quantities of biological and chemical weapons which were unilaterally destroyed in 1991," including the names of those who participated. In addition, "no underground facilities for chemical or biological production or storage were found so far," he said.

Bush mentions none of this, focusing instead on the U.S. and British inability to get a second U.N. resolution passed that would justify invasion.

In one of several passages in the book where he questions his decisions, Bush writes that he should have pushed harder on the intelligence, but adds, "at the time the evidence and logic pointed in the other direction." His most interesting personal reflection follows: "If Saddam doesn't actually have WMD, I asked myself, why on earth would he subject himself to a war he most certainly will lose?"

Hussein did not have those weapons and the inspections were beginning to show it, but neither Bush nor most Americans at the time were prepared to accept the idea that it is almost impossible to prove a negative.

Back in 2005, Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) accused the Bush administration of "cherry-picking intelligence" to justify going into Iraq. Bush responded by saying, "It is deeply irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war began." He should have remembered that as he wrote this section of his book.

Staff writer Bob Woodward contributed to this report.

Bush memoir makes selective use of Iraq data

roachboy · 11-16-2010, 10:22 AM

i'd be surprised at your rather pathetic arguments in defense of cowboy george if i expected intellectual integrity from you, ace.

but i don't.

Wes Mantooth · 11-16-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

So would that film be a crime drama or a comedy?

A comedy about bumbling criminals who seem to avoid getting caught in spite of themselves?

mixedmedia · 11-16-2010, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

If someone stole my work, I would file a lawsuit or seek some other form of recourse. If this is as certain as some think it is, it would be a simple matter to resolve. On so many occasions people would grand-stand about how Bush violated laws, lied, stole, and denied people rights. On every occasion the talk was nothing but talk, and no one every took action. Is that a liberal value - talk, talk, talk and do nothing?

no, it is not a liberal value.
What you have done is effectively prove my point that there are no liberals in Washington...none with the means to affect anything that liberals really care about, at least.

Baraka_Guru · 11-16-2010, 12:09 PM

True liberals are shouted down as socialists, so they don't even really get a chance to talk, let alone do anything.

Willravel · 11-16-2010, 12:56 PM

I read "My Life" by Bill Clinton and rather enjoyed it. It took me a while longer then I intended to ever read the autobiography of President Clinton, but so be it. I have no interest in reading "Decision Points". It was likely ghost-written in an attempt to either rehash dead, disproved arguments and push nonconservative propaganda. I've had my fill of that.

That said, if Bush did indeed plagiarize the work of someone else and profit from that plagiarism, I believe there are laws in place which he would be subject t.... I'm sorry, I can't get through that sentence without stabbing myself in the arm. The man is a liar, a fool, and a warmonger. I don't give two shits if he stole passages from people. He lied to congress and the American people to trick us into going to war, he ordered torture, he was likely involved in outing a CIA spy, causing the deaths of perhaps 90 people, and he significantly increased the surveillance state. He's a fucking war criminal and should be tried at The Hague along with his cohorts. He admitted to torturing in this very book.

matthew330 · 11-16-2010, 02:14 PM

undergrads have been thrown out of universities for plagiarizing less than a full sentence? Is that even possible, or were you just lying?
This is plagiarism:
Examples of Plagiarism - Academic Integrity at Princeton University
Similarities in stories of two people recounting the same event they were both part of is expected.

This obsession over every move George Bush makes is pathological.

Noone read this over there at the huffington post read this book and thought, hmm - this is so strangely familiar. Of course Bob woodward page 436 - He said: The third and most robust, and right here George says the third and most aggressive.
SLIMEBALL. They were looking for something, this is the best they could come up with. It wasn't a total waste of time, it doesn't take much to feed the left and get them worked into a frenzy (see above 30 posts for example).

....and Will, remember, you waterboarded your friend in your basement. Please.

silent_jay · 11-16-2010, 02:39 PM

aceventura3 · 11-16-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i'd be surprised at your rather pathetic arguments in defense of cowboy george if i expected intellectual integrity from you, ace.

but i don't.

I thought I was asking questions. You seemed to have some unique insight. I guess I was mistaken, sorry.

Willravel · 11-16-2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

....and Will, remember, you waterboarded your friend in your basement. Please.

I like how you lack the intellectual honesty to even begin to respond to any of my points, instead trying to drag up some irrelevant tidbit from months, perhaps years ago. It's even dawned on you that what Bush did was wrong now, and the cracks forming in your denial and dissonance are becoming caverns.

Erich "Mancow" Muller was waterboarded a few years ago on US soil with law enforcement present. Because it was consensual, it wasn't illegal. Maybe you're suggesting KSM consented to be kidnapped, held without trial and tortured? Maybe that's the last straw you're grasping at in your futile attempt at maintaining your delusion?

matthew330 · 11-18-2010, 04:31 AM

I’m suggesting that if you can re-create what the government did to KSM in your basement with a “friend”, than “enhanced interrogation” is the more appropriate description of that event. I challenge you to re-create any one of Saddam’s or Uday’s punishments in your basement. So it is relevant.
Fact is, if Bush’s technique was to go and fart on KSM during interrogation, you’d want him tried at the Hague for warcrimes. That the left tries to say KSM was “tortured” 487 times in 3 days by counting the droplets of water that touched his nose, shows what your real agenda is, and it isn’t a humanitarian mission. Trust me. There’s been a war-cry to have Bush in jail or impeached since the day he “stole” Florida.
But that’s not what this thread is about, so that’s why I kept my response to you very very short.

Silent Jay........SPONGEBOB!
/look at him go, cute little guy.

roachboy · 11-18-2010, 07:10 AM

gee, matthew, that'd all be real compelling had it any relationship with the facts. but you're among the most thoroughly committed to the reality-optional type of conservatism i've encountered. nothing penetrates the prefabricated conservo-memes that you dutifully repeat. i know that the fox news set has been arguing exactly the "point" that you try to, but they also presuppose that no-one's actually looked at the evidence.

but it's in the articles. have a look.

i still think there's something surreal about this, even as it is a pretty apt characterization of the shabbiness of conservative thinking in general.

Willravel · 11-18-2010, 12:22 PM

And again, not one point I've posted was responded to. I suspect Matthew is now well aware that he's totally wrong, but is simply going through the motions in a last ditch effort at self-deception. It has nothing to do with Bush or torture or even me.

matthew330 · 11-19-2010, 07:37 PM

What the fuck - I've got nothing better to do at the moment:

Not one of your points was responded to will? Find me one and I'll respond to it. As far as I can tell, the only point you had was that:
a. My life took you a long time to read
b. You have no interest in reading "Decision Points" (what this thread is about"
c. You can't get through a sentence without stabbing youself in the arm
or...
d. Bush is a liar fool, and warmonger, war criminal, lied to congress, tricked the AMerican people, caused the deaths of 90 people.

Option D would be the mother of all threadjacks, and basically the premise of every thread in politics over the last 8 years, so really where would you like me to begin. What is it that you think I owe you Will? Especially since you never responded to one of my rather straightforward points that was actually about the topic at hand.

And professor roachboy, it's amazing how much you know about fox news, considering you don't even watch it. If you did, you wouldn't have tried to make the accusation that my posts came from fox news. Your wrong, and I know, because I do watch fox news. It appears your content being told what fox news is, much like you were told about the plagarism in this book, got excited and ran to your buddies at TFP to tell them all about it. YOu should re-evaluate whose living in a prefabricated "meme" and whose presupposing things they haven't actually looked at. Me or you?

TheCrimsonGhost · 12-19-2010, 07:11 AM

Don't all the Bush bashers realize he isn't the president anymore? I mean come on, these people need to find something to do with their lives other than dwell on GW Bush, he was a hell of a lot better than our current president. That's a fact.

mixedmedia · 12-19-2010, 08:11 AM

oh, well thank you for shutting us all up with your rock solid facts.
sheesh.

roachboy · 12-19-2010, 08:23 AM

well, there we have it--republican "history" in a nutshell. whaddya talking about plagiarism? so he copied a whole bunch of stuff for this autobio? who cares? so he authorized the commission of war crimes. who cares? so his policies nearly took down the united states. who cares? he's not president any more and what matters is that stupid people be convinced that the fiasco(s) caused by the bush administration are actually the fault of the obama administration. now we're talking! its conservative reality substitute land! yay!

TheCrimsonGhost · 12-19-2010, 08:48 AM

lol, I love that I am assumed a republican because I think it's silly that people are still wasting time bashing George Bush when he has no power over anything anymore... Seems like there are some pretty ignorant minds around, I better watch what I say. For the record, I am not republican, have never voted republican, and have no problem with Obama other than the fact that he promised all his followers change that never came. Obama = Bush. Repulicans = Democrats. Politicians = Politicians. Until you realize this, you are indeed in the dark.

mixedmedia · 12-19-2010, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCrimsonGhost

lol, I love that I am assumed a republican because I think it's silly that people are still wasting time bashing George Bush when he has no power over anything anymore... Seems like there are some pretty ignorant minds around, I better watch what I say. For the record, I am not republican, have never voted republican, and have no problem with Obama other than the fact that he promised all his followers change that never came. Obama = Bush. Repulicans = Democrats. Politicians = Politicians. Until you realize this, you are indeed in the dark.

Well perhaps you ought to do a little reading and posting around here yourself before you start dropping the snide bombs. This place isn't your average political Internet dumping ground where you can piss on the living room floor and then split. If you've come here with something to say then let's hear it.

Willravel · 12-19-2010, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheCrimsonGhost

Don't all the Bush bashers realize he isn't the president anymore? I mean come on, these people need to find something to do with their lives other than dwell on GW Bush, he was a hell of a lot better than our current president. That's a fact.

Democrats don't say things like "Bush bashers". That's a fact.

Seaver · 12-19-2010, 01:10 PM

I have no intention of reading the book. I was too young to vote for him in '00, I was too blind to vote against him in '04, and I'll be paying for his clusterfuck until I retire.

Quote:

he was a hell of a lot better than our current president. That's a fact.

No.. that's an opinion.

Willravel · 12-19-2010, 01:36 PM

Yes, that was the joke.

Derwood · 12-19-2010, 03:00 PM

Wow, ace willfully ignoring facts? SHOCKING

debaser · 12-19-2010, 06:03 PM

I'm still shocked that the book didn't come with a package of crayons.

11-15-2010, 10:03 AM	#2 (permalink)
kramus loving the curves Location: my Lady's manor	I read a brief quote online regarding GWB's words and actions on 9/11. For me the language seemed both overwrought and very targeted towards a god-fearing middle america - at the same time it demonstrated no ability to lead or think in such a critical and (dare I say) historically pregnant juncture. Couldn't properly finish reading the article. I'll stick to bits'n'bites doled out by literary masochists or desperate seekers of value who will steel their bellies and grip their noses and dive headlong into this latest bit of thoroughly filtered whatever. I'm pretty sure the book will lack any vestige of the personal charm and ability GWB must exhibit in person (he simply couldn't have been chosen to be the GOP's figurehead without possessing such attributes). __________________ And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ... I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

11-15-2010, 10:21 AM	#3 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i was thinking about this...when i taught university from time to time i'd get sucked into dealing with plagiarism. there had to be something that tipped it, though, a phrase or argument that you reading either recognized from somewhere or assumed could not possibly have come from the writer. what mystifies me about this is that it seems the main sources cribbed from included woodward's book. so one of the most well-known journalistic accounts of the iraq war period bush white house. a review from the front page of the ny review of books as a source? collaged newspaper accounts that are accessible with rudimentary web searches? if you are going to get away from plagiarism, you typically do not try to get caught. this is like stealing from the textbook from the class you're taking. (which has happened.) you really have to wonder what's going on with this. it seems almost designed to implode, the memoir. like a conceptual action. the sort of thing that makes me wish i had been the person hired to ghost write. because i like to think i'd have done this. but of course if it's just the ghost writer, then that forecloses things a bit. and there is the option, i suppose, should this get out of hand, of throwing the ghost writer under the bus. or you might imagine that bush is staging himself as a kind of zelig character, someone utterly without qualities independent of the situation in which he finds himself, so a kind of pure function, someone who is, literally, just there. in which case, he should own up to the procedures. and keep in mind that i have no problem with collage as a technique, no problem with tampering with the form of autobiography, no problem with mocking the conventions of literary "authenticity"---but this guy's not doing any of that. what he is doing is the rounds of talk shows on each of which he brags about having written this himself. it's very very strange. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 11-15-2010 at 10:26 AM..

11-15-2010, 12:09 PM	#4 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	I really never thought he ran the first 6 years of his presidency I guess it's no surprise he'd let someone else write his autobiography. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 11-15-2010 at 12:36 PM..

11-15-2010, 01:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	ace, dear, plagiarism doesn't require that one read the book. plagiarism is demonstrable empirically and both the guardian and huffington post articles provide that demonstration. there's no argument about whether this occurred or not. and it really is not important whether you like it or not. the proof is there. deal with that for once. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-15-2010, 02:08 PM	#9 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	read the evidence, ace. an undergraduate would be thrown out of university for that stuff. i've seen it happen for less. again, though, it's astonishing that people have argued it's woodward's book about the bush administration that's one of the major sources that are used without acknowledgment. why would anyone would use the best-selling book about the administration to come out so far as a source to crib from? it's like begging to get caught. i'm curious about the explanation. don't you find this strange, ace? even you must find it strange. btw: how "serious" plagiarism is varies with context. like i said, a student at university would be thrown out for less than this. in the wider world, much depends on context, on questions like the kind of project is in question, in how that project is understood by cultural mediators, what the rules of the game for producing that kind of project are and who enforces them. my own relation to the idea of plagiarism varies alot with context. but the rules of the game for a straight autobiography pretty clearly don't leave alot of space for plagiarism. ironic relations to that form can. but not if you play it straight. there's something really odd happening here. i don't have enough information yet to be able to figure out what it is. i suppose sooner or later we'll know. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 11-15-2010 at 02:16 PM..

11-15-2010, 02:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	I do kinda wonder about the ghost writer/s & the editor who gave this the green light. A masterminded collusion perhaps? or just an even more pitiful ending... the cherry on top of Bush's pathetic history. P.S. Your Zelig comparison is .....yes. Last edited by ring; 11-15-2010 at 02:56 PM..

11-15-2010, 11:21 PM	#11 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	Jesus Christ. W, the gift that just keeps on giving. Honestly the man's presidency was like an 8 year long, never ending Christopher Guest mockumentary. The plagiarism in his own autobiography just makes for the perfect "where are they now" scene to tack on at the end and send the audience home with a smile. Brilliant, I hope they start filming soon. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

11-16-2010, 02:56 AM	#12 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	So would that film be a crime drama or a comedy? __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

11-16-2010, 03:07 AM	#13 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I'm getting more and more confused about these real American values. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

11-16-2010, 05:12 AM	#14 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	it's hard to imagine "real american values" applying to a zelig, isn't it? besides, those are for the little people. when you're one of the high rollers, anything goes. it's the little people's fault for not knowing that, really. but then again, it's not unusual for the servants to take their fantasies about the lives of their masters far more seriously than they take the lives of their masters. think about samouri films. slaves who actually believed the construction they made for themselves to account for how those with power lived. they were useful then they weren't then they were tossed aside. they hung around for a while, got in a bunch of fights and eventually either became masters and abandoned what the samourai believed or they died out. that's a nice story and i'm glad i told it. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-16-2010, 10:22 AM	#17 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i'd be surprised at your rather pathetic arguments in defense of cowboy george if i expected intellectual integrity from you, ace. but i don't. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-16-2010, 12:09 PM	#20 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	True liberals are shouted down as socialists, so they don't even really get a chance to talk, let alone do anything. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

11-16-2010, 12:56 PM	#21 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I read "My Life" by Bill Clinton and rather enjoyed it. It took me a while longer then I intended to ever read the autobiography of President Clinton, but so be it. I have no interest in reading "Decision Points". It was likely ghost-written in an attempt to either rehash dead, disproved arguments and push nonconservative propaganda. I've had my fill of that. That said, if Bush did indeed plagiarize the work of someone else and profit from that plagiarism, I believe there are laws in place which he would be subject t.... I'm sorry, I can't get through that sentence without stabbing myself in the arm. The man is a liar, a fool, and a warmonger. I don't give two shits if he stole passages from people. He lied to congress and the American people to trick us into going to war, he ordered torture, he was likely involved in outing a CIA spy, causing the deaths of perhaps 90 people, and he significantly increased the surveillance state. He's a fucking war criminal and should be tried at The Hague along with his cohorts. He admitted to torturing in this very book.

11-16-2010, 02:14 PM	#22 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	undergrads have been thrown out of universities for plagiarizing less than a full sentence? Is that even possible, or were you just lying? This is plagiarism: Examples of Plagiarism - Academic Integrity at Princeton University Similarities in stories of two people recounting the same event they were both part of is expected. This obsession over every move George Bush makes is pathological. Noone read this over there at the huffington post read this book and thought, hmm - this is so strangely familiar. Of course Bob woodward page 436 - He said: The third and most robust, and right here George says the third and most aggressive. SLIMEBALL. They were looking for something, this is the best they could come up with. It wasn't a total waste of time, it doesn't take much to feed the left and get them worked into a frenzy (see above 30 posts for example). ....and Will, remember, you waterboarded your friend in your basement. Please. Last edited by matthew330; 11-16-2010 at 02:23 PM..

11-16-2010, 02:39 PM	#23 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	... Last edited by silent_jay; 02-10-2011 at 11:12 AM..

11-18-2010, 04:31 AM	#26 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	I’m suggesting that if you can re-create what the government did to KSM in your basement with a “friend”, than “enhanced interrogation” is the more appropriate description of that event. I challenge you to re-create any one of Saddam’s or Uday’s punishments in your basement. So it is relevant. Fact is, if Bush’s technique was to go and fart on KSM during interrogation, you’d want him tried at the Hague for warcrimes. That the left tries to say KSM was “tortured” 487 times in 3 days by counting the droplets of water that touched his nose, shows what your real agenda is, and it isn’t a humanitarian mission. Trust me. There’s been a war-cry to have Bush in jail or impeached since the day he “stole” Florida. But that’s not what this thread is about, so that’s why I kept my response to you very very short. Silent Jay........SPONGEBOB! /look at him go, cute little guy.

11-18-2010, 07:10 AM	#27 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	gee, matthew, that'd all be real compelling had it any relationship with the facts. but you're among the most thoroughly committed to the reality-optional type of conservatism i've encountered. nothing penetrates the prefabricated conservo-memes that you dutifully repeat. i know that the fox news set has been arguing exactly the "point" that you try to, but they also presuppose that no-one's actually looked at the evidence. but it's in the articles. have a look. i still think there's something surreal about this, even as it is a pretty apt characterization of the shabbiness of conservative thinking in general. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-18-2010, 12:22 PM	#28 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	And again, not one point I've posted was responded to. I suspect Matthew is now well aware that he's totally wrong, but is simply going through the motions in a last ditch effort at self-deception. It has nothing to do with Bush or torture or even me.

11-19-2010, 07:37 PM	#29 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	What the fuck - I've got nothing better to do at the moment: Not one of your points was responded to will? Find me one and I'll respond to it. As far as I can tell, the only point you had was that: a. My life took you a long time to read b. You have no interest in reading "Decision Points" (what this thread is about" c. You can't get through a sentence without stabbing youself in the arm or... d. Bush is a liar fool, and warmonger, war criminal, lied to congress, tricked the AMerican people, caused the deaths of 90 people. Option D would be the mother of all threadjacks, and basically the premise of every thread in politics over the last 8 years, so really where would you like me to begin. What is it that you think I owe you Will? Especially since you never responded to one of my rather straightforward points that was actually about the topic at hand. And professor roachboy, it's amazing how much you know about fox news, considering you don't even watch it. If you did, you wouldn't have tried to make the accusation that my posts came from fox news. Your wrong, and I know, because I do watch fox news. It appears your content being told what fox news is, much like you were told about the plagarism in this book, got excited and ran to your buddies at TFP to tell them all about it. YOu should re-evaluate whose living in a prefabricated "meme" and whose presupposing things they haven't actually looked at. Me or you?

12-19-2010, 07:11 AM	#30 (permalink)
TheCrimsonGhost Upright Location: Los Angeles, CA	Don't all the Bush bashers realize he isn't the president anymore? I mean come on, these people need to find something to do with their lives other than dwell on GW Bush, he was a hell of a lot better than our current president. That's a fact.

12-19-2010, 08:11 AM	#31 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	oh, well thank you for shutting us all up with your rock solid facts. sheesh. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

12-19-2010, 08:23 AM	#32 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well, there we have it--republican "history" in a nutshell. whaddya talking about plagiarism? so he copied a whole bunch of stuff for this autobio? who cares? so he authorized the commission of war crimes. who cares? so his policies nearly took down the united states. who cares? he's not president any more and what matters is that stupid people be convinced that the fiasco(s) caused by the bush administration are actually the fault of the obama administration. now we're talking! its conservative reality substitute land! yay! __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

12-19-2010, 08:48 AM	#33 (permalink)
TheCrimsonGhost Upright Location: Los Angeles, CA	lol, I love that I am assumed a republican because I think it's silly that people are still wasting time bashing George Bush when he has no power over anything anymore... Seems like there are some pretty ignorant minds around, I better watch what I say. For the record, I am not republican, have never voted republican, and have no problem with Obama other than the fact that he promised all his followers change that never came. Obama = Bush. Repulicans = Democrats. Politicians = Politicians. Until you realize this, you are indeed in the dark.

12-19-2010, 01:36 PM	#37 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Yes, that was the joke.

12-19-2010, 03:00 PM	#38 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	Wow, ace willfully ignoring facts? SHOCKING __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

12-19-2010, 06:03 PM	#39 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	I'm still shocked that the book didn't come with a package of crayons. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.