10-25-2010, 06:47 AM | #1 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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Eight False Things The Public “Knows” Prior To Election Day
Here is an interesting article I just read and I want to see what you all think about this. Are the facts in this article wrong or has the misinformation right-wing media been incredibly successful at making stuff up and presenting it as truth?
http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/...s-they-go-vote Quote:
Last edited by Rekna; 10-25-2010 at 07:41 AM.. |
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10-25-2010, 07:42 AM | #4 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
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It's some guy named Dave Johnson. Here is the original blog post. It has links.
Eight False Things The Public "Knows" Prior To Election Day | OurFuture.org Now, are these things false or not?
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10-25-2010, 07:48 AM | #6 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
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Okay, now that we've dogpiled onto the original blog post, are these eight things false or not?
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
10-25-2010, 08:01 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Still Free
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No disrespect to Renka, but these talking points are so stupid, it doesn't even matter if they are false, or if Dan Johnson's version of them are true. If the boat is sinking, does it really matter which cannon blew which hole through your hull?
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10-25-2010, 08:14 AM | #8 (permalink) | |||||||||
Junkie
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---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ---------- I'll start the analysis with a few of these: Quote:
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10-25-2010, 08:27 AM | #9 (permalink) |
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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7 posts in and we've already arrived at the point I intended to make - 'truth' isn't a primary concern in politics. Most people are solidly decided on what they believe, and rationalize it with points like Rekna addressed. Whether those things are truth is really only a secondary concern, since they are only rationalizations.
I'd much prefer we waged war with facts instead of preconceptions rationalized by 'facts'. I'm more concerned with the truth then who it hurts. Thanks for sharing this Rekna, but I think the people most influenced by these things they 'know' will receive this with dead ears.
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10-25-2010, 08:38 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
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Truth has become the first causality of politics since, well since the first vote was ever casts.
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10-25-2010, 08:53 AM | #11 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
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"I'll be glad to reply to or dodge your questions, depending on what I think will help our election most."
—George H. W. Bush (spoken before a college audience during his failed 1980 presidential campaign)
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
10-25-2010, 09:12 AM | #12 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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i dont see the current levels of disinformation as a function of any "natural" process.
it is a function of a deliberate politics. this is what the conservative media apparatus does. that's it's stock in trade----it produces and repeats and provides velocity to and for this kind of politicized infotainment. which is in this case a direct extension of the strategy developed by the right to enable it to run against its own record. what the right is concerned with, really, judging from pretty much everything, is holding power. it is an end in itself. the bush people left the republicans in a pretty shitty position at the end of its debacle of a period in office. apparently the decision got taken---let's pretend we're not the republicans exactly. and let's assume that people's memory really is the length of the last news cycle. and let's assume that people believe what they want to from within a range of prefabricated options. so by extension that politics is a consumer matter. these statements circulate. everyone knows someone who believes one or more of them. they're mostly the sort of horseshit that the talking heads at fox or am radio pundits use alot. everyone knows they're out there. the problem with the article, i suppose, is that it talks in terms of belief. what that opens up is the possibility for any given conservative to point at any one of the statements and say "i don't believe that" from which presumably it'd be possible to say "therefore everything is false." which is unfortunate, giving an out like that. paul krugman addresses much the same problem in todays ny times: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/25/op...rugman.html?hp
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 10-25-2010 at 09:15 AM.. |
10-25-2010, 09:16 AM | #13 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Greater Harrisburg Area
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Well, I can address at least one of those truths. I recently received a letter from the SSA informing me (among other things) that I should start planning for my own retirement because by the time I'm eligible to collect social security they're only going to be able to pay 76 cents per dollar owed. Whether or not the SSA is actually going broke they certainly believe that they are.
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10-25-2010, 09:42 AM | #14 (permalink) |
Still Free
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No, no, no Hektore - Dan Johnson and Rekna say it's solvent, so it's solvent. As a matter of fact and according to these seers, SS is so black, it's actually GREEN! Undoubtedly, this is because of all of the environmental jobs created by Social Security.
You go spend that retirement money on hookers and blow. You won't need it.
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10-25-2010, 10:14 AM | #16 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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I didn't say it was solvent I said this is the first year in the red and it doesn't necessarily mean the end of the world is coming. There are many small steps that we can take to make it solvent. |
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10-25-2010, 10:25 AM | #17 (permalink) | |
Still Free
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I do find the biblical reference curious, though.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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10-25-2010, 10:28 AM | #18 (permalink) |
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fantastic, cimmaron. so not only are you willing to repeat bogus "anti-statist" bits of libertarian nonsense as if they were fact without bothering with actual data, but you're also resistant to the possibility that this bogus infotainment is problematic.
clearly the problem with dialogue comes from those of us who characterize conservatives as conservatives. clearly.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-25-2010, 10:47 AM | #19 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Greater Harrisburg Area
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No, I won't be eligible for retirement for more than 40 years.
Here is a copy of part of the letter I received: The relevant portion: Quote:
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The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game. |
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10-25-2010, 10:53 AM | #20 (permalink) |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
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My daughter received a letter like that, more newsletter then letter. The date on hers was 2037. So if she retired after 2037, 27 years from now she'll get 760 dollars for every 1000 dollars due.
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10-25-2010, 11:10 AM | #21 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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10-25-2010, 11:30 AM | #22 (permalink) | |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Sorry, roach, not playing. Hektore, you believe whomever you want.
---------- Post added at 03:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ---------- Quote:
Hookers and blow, Hektore. That Blackhawk helicoptor is just waiting to drop a metric shit-ton of cash on your lawn come retirement day.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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10-25-2010, 11:31 AM | #23 (permalink) |
Human
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There's a very easy fix for social security: raise the cap on taxable income. There's no reason why someone earning $60,000/year should have 100% of their income taxed for social security while someone earning $1 million/year has only about 10% of their income taxed for social security.
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10-25-2010, 11:43 AM | #24 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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10-25-2010, 12:53 PM | #26 (permalink) | |
Still Free
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This might help. However, you might question the facts of the source. Social Security history Frequently Asked Questions question 4 is of interest. Edit: Now that I re-read your point, I suppose you are technically correct - it was not a substitute for a retirement plan. Although, you still want to cling to the math that SS will exist in any form by the time Hektore ages another 40 years - something I am unwilling to believe as fact. The original plan was to augment incomes for people who lived beyond the average expectancy. The problem today is that they have lowered that age, rather than raising it. ---------- Post added at 04:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:49 PM ---------- roach - The article paints an incomplete picture of SS, and does so intentionally. If you view the timeline of the posts, I reacted negatively to Rekna saying SS has only not run in the "green" for one year - when in fact it has not run in the "black" eleven years (question 26 from SSA.gov above). So, I do find it amusing and reacted as such, especially since his entire thread is premised on the delivery of facts. When, Hektore said, "wait, what about when I need it in 40 years?" - I made light of Rekna's obvious mistakes as well as Johnson's convenient change of the finish line to suit his needs. The fact is, the finish line is when Hektore and I need it, not when Johnson believes it has proven itself as a working system. The fact is the SS system is in unsustainable decline and can not deliver what it promises to the people that are paying into it (Hektore). So, pointing out these facts as facts in regards to one of the eight points the writer makes does not mean that I am a destroyer of the nation, as Rekna says, or a giant dummy toting some party line, as you imply.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." Last edited by Cimarron29414; 10-25-2010 at 12:20 PM.. |
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10-28-2010, 01:18 AM | #27 (permalink) | ||
Upright
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That being said: (Aug 5, 2010 Trustees Report Summary excerpt) Quote:
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10-28-2010, 04:30 AM | #28 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Greater Harrisburg Area
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__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game. |
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10-28-2010, 05:42 AM | #29 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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so what you're saying here is that maybe one of the conservative talking points that have substituted for information is less completely horseshit than the others.
seems alot of work if that's all you're after.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-28-2010, 06:08 AM | #30 (permalink) |
Still Free
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BTW, Hektore: If I'm elected President, I can guarantee you will not receive one penny from the federal government in retirement funds in 40 years.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
10-28-2010, 07:18 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Greater Harrisburg Area
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The longer point, which isn't spelled out is that perhaps it isn't helpful to call someone a liar while spouting half-truths of your own. Mr. Johnson could be completely accurate in the rest of his evaluation but he had the opportunity to enlighten the crowd honestly about the state of social security and instead stuck his fingers in his ears and blew some figurative raspberries at the people who think that there are problems that ought to be addressed. Damaging his own credibility isn't very helpful to the other points. Take the stimulus; maybe it helped, maybe it didn't, I don't know. I do know there is enough (mis)information floating around on both sides of the issue (everything from Obama's part in the stimulus makes him the King Savior of the all World to that useless tripe faux news spouts about the bill itself consuming babies for breakfast) that you can find a source to credit to support any position you'd like. If I think he's more interested in towing a partly line with half-truths, because it looks like that's what he's doing with something I do know a bit about, it makes me less inclined to take him seriously about the stimulus. But hey, the point of the thread and the OP was to evaluate all the claims, feel free to show me how much the stimulus helped, I'm honestly very interested to know.
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The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game. |
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10-28-2010, 07:38 AM | #32 (permalink) |
Upright
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Ha, definitely. It reads like it's framed to counter their framing, rather than for accuracy. Framing, as far as these kinds of techniques go, is like some kind of sorcery when you're using it to pound existing beliefs. He's not really espousing a commonly held notion, though, when not-so-subtly framing for [Huge thing; can't go broke]
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10-28-2010, 08:42 AM | #33 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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the information in 6 of the 7 point seems ok intuitively.
you think that the other point is perhaps overstated. so the problem is some imaginary character defect in the author. how quaint. conservative argumentation. it makes me laugh.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-28-2010, 09:21 AM | #34 (permalink) |
Still Free
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Radd McCool - To counter whose framing? Dave Johnson wrote every word of that article.
rb - Article title is "8 false things..." You seem to concede that 25% of the items he listed aren't necessarily false...in a list of eight. The author couldn't be precise on eight things in an article rooted in the premise of bringing the truth? I'll brush off the jabs since your argument has been no better.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
10-28-2010, 09:42 AM | #35 (permalink) |
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cimmaron, it's an impressionistic editorial piece taken from a blog.
if we're going to talk about a text, keeping the genre straight is kinda important. unless we want to encourage meaningless critiques. which a prerogative, i suppose. i'd enjoy it in the way i like putting tacks into my hand. the question isn't whether the counters are true, really: it's more whether the assessment is accurate of the conservative misinformation points that have crept out of the space of conservative misinformation and are confused with "facts"---i've heard people say most of these things. have you? that seems to me about as far as one can go with this. if you want to have a social security conversation, we could do it, but it'd require actual data rather than just the sort of infotainment that one could get sitting around in a publick house except without the beverages. but what's the point of sitting around a publick house if there aren't beverages to be had? by which i mean that there is maybe an interesting other discussion about this to be had, because basic data and basic interpretations diverge quite considerably about social security and its sustainability. these divergences typically come down to restatements of premises. that's why this sort of "discussion" here is tedious--there's no pressure to demonstrate the premises so no pressure to expose why you interpret the information you have as you do---because there's no information. it's like that, in my humble opinion.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
10-28-2010, 10:52 AM | #37 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Greater Harrisburg Area
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__________________
The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game. |
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10-28-2010, 10:52 AM | #38 (permalink) |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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How is "Ponzi scheme" a conservative framing? It's named after Charles Ponzi, the guy who took investors' money and used it to pay off previous investors. Will not social security use the money of current investors to pay off previous investors? Yes. Did SS know that the amount being taken from investors was not adequate based on their expected retirement draw to properly finance the plan - and that they would have to use other people's money to make good on their promise? Yes. Does the perpetrator of the plan benefit from its creation. Yes. If we can use cognitive framing of corporate personhood on one argument it's perfectly fair to have government personhood to explain the motivation (acquiring power) in creating entitlement programs.
I see you are uncomfortable that the venerated entitlement program parallels a popular fraud, but it is the very definition, not a cognitive framing.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." Last edited by Cimarron29414; 10-28-2010 at 10:55 AM.. |
10-28-2010, 11:00 AM | #39 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
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There is a superficial analogy between pyramid or Ponzi schemes and pay-as-you-go insurance programs in that in both money from later participants goes to pay the benefits of earlier participants. But that is where the similarity ends. A pay-as-you-go system can be visualized as a simple pipeline, with money from current contributors coming in the front end and money to current beneficiaries paid out the back end. As long as the amount of money coming in the front end of the pipe maintains a rough balance with the money paid out, the system can continue forever. There is no unsustainable progression driving the mechanism of a pay-as-you-go pension system, and so it is not a pyramid or Ponzi scheme.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
10-28-2010, 11:09 AM | #40 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: New York
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Sure, the government can fix this by either confiscating more taxpayer money or reducing payouts, but right now it fits the model of a Ponzi scheme. |
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