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Old 07-17-2003, 09:51 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace_of_Lobster
This implies that you believe Americans to be better than the rest of the world by virtue of them being American. Seriously, do you believe that Americans are genetically superior? Why do you think Americans are more deserving of basic human rights than anyone else?

Perhaps you dont believe in the right to a fair trial? There used to be a place for that kind of thinking, it was SOVIET RUSSIA.
No, you've missed the point. I don't think we're genetically superior to the rest of the world. I think that our government is there to do good for America, and that the people who live in America deserve at least to not be blown up by some foriegner.

As for their basic human rights, they're having their trial, by way of a military tribunal. Are you saying that's not fair? I believe you may be happier in Soviet Russia yourself if you enjoy defaming our noble military servicemen like this.
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Old 07-17-2003, 10:30 PM   #42 (permalink)
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plz dont draw comparisons to another other nations (USSR, iraq whatever).

we're just not the same. we're at a much higher level than those countries.

and i dont think we should stoop down any lower.
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Old 07-17-2003, 10:31 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Old 07-17-2003, 11:50 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Dude
er....there are lots of people who hate the american way of life and would do things if they had the chance.

they have the right to think whatever they want. but, we can only take action against them if they take action against us.

we just cant go all over the world pickin up peeps who hate us and want to kill us.
1) Yes, you can - you're certainly powerful enough to do it.
2) Yes, you should - with today's terrorists and the possibility of WMDs, you shouldn't wait for anyone to take action against you, because that action might kill millions.
3) Define "action" for anti-US guys - does this involve preaching hatred of the Western world? does it involve training kids to blow up Americans? does it involve preparing for terror attacks? Or does it just involve those actual attacks, and only after the fact? I.e. where do you draw the line?
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Old 07-18-2003, 08:57 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
1) Yes, you can - you're certainly powerful enough to do it.
2) Yes, you should - with today's terrorists and the possibility of WMDs, you shouldn't wait for anyone to take action against you, because that action might kill millions.
3) Define "action" for anti-US guys - does this involve preaching hatred of the Western world? does it involve training kids to blow up Americans? does it involve preparing for terror attacks? Or does it just involve those actual attacks, and only after the fact? I.e. where do you draw the line?
so, we're just gonna swoop into any sovereign nation where the people are anti-US ?
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Old 07-18-2003, 09:24 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phaenx

As for their basic human rights, they're having their trial, by way of a military tribunal. Are you saying that's not fair?

Yes im saying the military tribunal is not fair. You would have to be pretty ignorant of what the military tribunal is to feel otherwise.
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Old 07-18-2003, 09:34 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Dude
so, we're just gonna swoop into any sovereign nation where the people are anti-US ?
If you take logic to the extreme, then yes, you should. That'd certainly be an effective (if very bloody) way of maintaining world dominance. It worked for the Roman Empire, so why not for the US Empire?

But personally, I'd prefer a more constructive way of solving problems than brute force. However, if there are countries where the *leaders* refuse to stop anti-American (and anti-Western) people from plotting terrorist acts, or are actually promoting such acts, then someone should do something about it. Sovereign nation or not, when your citizens are preparing to attack another country, or supporting people that attack, you are fully responsible for those actions. Either you stop them, or the country being targeted has to stop them, to prevent a potential massacre.

Remember, there's a difference between being "Anti-US" and supporting terrorist acts against the US. The former is perfectly okay, while the latter will get you in trouble, as it should.
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Old 07-18-2003, 10:03 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phaenx
International law doesn't apply to them, because the international law says it doesn't, which is why they're called illegal combatants, and which is why we can and should do what we are. The military knows its shit, let them do their jobs.
WTF?


Dumbush said 9/11 was an "ACT OF WAR"

Note: "Act of WAR"

Therefore they are POW's
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Old 07-18-2003, 11:08 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
If you take logic to the extreme, then yes, you should. That'd certainly be an effective (if very bloody) way of maintaining world dominance. It worked for the Roman Empire, so why not for the US Empire?

But personally, I'd prefer a more constructive way of solving problems than brute force. However, if there are countries where the *leaders* refuse to stop anti-American (and anti-Western) people from plotting terrorist acts, or are actually promoting such acts, then someone should do something about it. Sovereign nation or not, when your citizens are preparing to attack another country, or supporting people that attack, you are fully responsible for those actions. Either you stop them, or the country being targeted has to stop them, to prevent a potential massacre.

Remember, there's a difference between being "Anti-US" and supporting terrorist acts against the US. The former is perfectly okay, while the latter will get you in trouble, as it should.
hmm...if US can use this principle, why cant other people??

if the whole world followed this principle, there would be no tomorrow.
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Old 07-18-2003, 11:50 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
However, if there are countries where the *leaders* refuse to stop anti-American (and anti-Western) people from plotting terrorist acts, or are actually promoting such acts, then someone should do something about it. Sovereign nation or not, when your citizens are preparing to attack another country, or supporting people that attack, you are fully responsible for those actions.
The UK has certainly been very involved in the war on terrorism, and has spilled its soldiers blood to prevent future terrorist attacks.
Some of the prisoners in Guantanamo are from the UK.
Is the British government fully responsible for the actions of these people?
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Old 07-18-2003, 11:53 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by dasani1455
WTF?


Dumbush said 9/11 was an "ACT OF WAR"

Note: "Act of WAR"

Therefore they are POW's
POW's are defined in the geneva convention. If you had read it, and understood what a POW is, you would know that it does not apply to these people.

Besides, since when do you lefties believe anything Bush says, I find it ironic his word is now the living word =).
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Old 07-18-2003, 11:55 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Dude
hmm...if US can use this principle, why cant other people??

if the whole world followed this principle, there would be no tomorrow.
Why? If people in country A are preparing to attack people in country B, it's up to the governments of either country A or country B to stop this. That is perfectly normal, and perfectly acceptable. I see no reason to assume that this principle will somehow translate into some global cataclysm...

I think I know what you're trying to say here, though: what if (for example) China were to say that people in Taiwan are plotting to attack China - they'd have an "excuse" to attack. Well, they don't. There wouldn't be any proof whatsoever for such a claim, and the Chinese would be kicked back in line. The US, on the other hand, faces attacks from global terrorists on a daily basis, which is well documented, and proven by the attacks in the past decades.
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Old 07-18-2003, 12:04 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
Why? If people in country A are preparing to attack people in country B, it's up to the governments of either country A or country B to stop this. That is perfectly normal, and perfectly acceptable. I see no reason to assume that this principle will somehow translate into some global cataclysm...

I think I know what you're trying to say here, though: what if (for example) China were to say that people in Taiwan are plotting to attack China - they'd have an "excuse" to attack. Well, they don't. There wouldn't be any proof whatsoever for such a claim, and the Chinese would be kicked back in line. The US, on the other hand, faces attacks from global terrorists on a daily basis, which is well documented, and proven by the attacks in the past decades.
your example is pretty bad.

what if south korea acts on this?
what if india acts on this?
what if the countries in africa (where there is already a lot of wars) act on this?
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Old 07-18-2003, 12:09 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace_of_Lobster
Yes im saying the military tribunal is not fair. You would have to be pretty ignorant of what the military tribunal is to feel otherwise.
I heard their proposal, so I'm not ignorant. Yet here I am, feeling otherwise. I always feel that what is ignorant, is calling dissent ignorant.
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Old 07-18-2003, 12:09 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
Well, they don't. There wouldn't be any proof whatsoever for such a claim,
OK, but where are the proofs that Iraq planned an attack on the USA? With which weapons?

BTW: theoretically the Iraq would have had the right to attack the USA befoe the US Attack because it was clear that the USA was planning an attack, right?


Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
The US, on the other hand, faces attacks from global terrorists on a daily basis, which is well documented, and proven by the attacks in the past decades.
exaples? where are the attacks "on a daily basis"? I remember two major attacks against the WTC, one was sucessful. Other attacks?
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Old 07-18-2003, 01:41 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Phaenx
I heard their proposal, so I'm not ignorant. Yet here I am, feeling otherwise. I always feel that what is ignorant, is calling dissent ignorant.

What do you think constitutes a fair trial?
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Old 07-18-2003, 07:44 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
OK, but where are the proofs that Iraq planned an attack on the USA? With which weapons?

BTW: theoretically the Iraq would have had the right to attack the USA befoe the US Attack because it was clear that the USA was planning an attack, right?
1. This war was bad?
2. (btw) Your point?
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Old 07-18-2003, 07:52 PM   #58 (permalink)
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his point is that, iraq could have just as easily used the "pre-emptive strike" theory and started a war on the United states.

and in doing so, they would have had much more clear evidence of a possible attack since US troops were massing up near their borders.
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Old 07-18-2003, 08:53 PM   #59 (permalink)
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By the way, recently 37 people were released from Guantanamo Bay and sent back to Afghanistan and Pakistan so people there are obviously not being lined up and shot without any consideration.
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Old 07-18-2003, 11:58 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by The_Dude
your example is pretty bad.

what if south korea acts on this?
what if india acts on this?
what if the countries in africa (where there is already a lot of wars) act on this?
Yes, what if? What if South Korea were to attack the North for constantly provoking them? What if India decides to attack Pakistan *AGAIN*? What if the countries in Africa decide to attack each other *AGAIN*?

My principle doesn't change anything at all - countries are already attacking each other, so what's your point? You think that in reality (without my principle) they'll suddenly stop doing that, and all line up at the UN to talk? This hasn't happened over the past 50 years, so that is simply not the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by Pacifier
OK, but where are the proofs that Iraq planned an attack on the USA? With which weapons?

BTW: theoretically the Iraq would have had the right to attack the USA befoe the US Attack because it was clear that the USA was planning an attack, right?
One: Iraq has been supporting terrorists, Iraq has been spreading anti-US propaganda, Iraq has failed to listen to the reasonable demand to provide proof of their disarmament. A direct attack on the US might not have been possible, but they could certainly hurt the US economically and politically. Hence, the US had the "right" to stop them.

Two: Yes Iraq would have had that right. I would not have been surprised if Iraq had lobbed some missiles (or WMDs) at the US troops as they were preparing to attack. However, Iraq obviously decided *not* to do that, in order to achieve some goal - they were hoping the war wouldn't start or something. So your point is?

Quote:
Originally posted by Pacifier

exaples? where are the attacks "on a daily basis"? I remember two major attacks against the WTC, one was sucessful. Other attacks?
Oh, you forgot about those attacks on US ambassies and diplomatic missions in Africa and Pakistan? Or the countless attempts to blow up westerners (Remember that shoe-bomb guy?), or the many attacks on US troops and citizens in Saudi-Arabia, Kuwait and other countries? Or the attack on the USS Cole? Perhaps you remember the attack on those nasty Australians in Bali; you know, allies of the US?

And just because you don't hear about attacks doesn't mean they weren't planned - occasionally the FBI and CIA get it right, and arrest terrorists before they can strike. You know, like that moron that tried to blow up a bridge in New York...
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Old 07-19-2003, 04:34 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
One: Iraq has been supporting terrorists
in palestina, thats true.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
Iraq has been spreading anti-US propaganda
that does not justify an attack on the iraq

Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
Iraq has failed to listen to the reasonable demand to provide proof of their disarmament
the USA has failed so far to proof that there were WMDs at all. So right now it looks like the iraqi statement "we have no WMDs" was true..

BTW: the usa are searching for thei justification *after* the attack, in the above China example that would mean, that china could invade taiwan and *then* start to search for a reason.

Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
I would not have been surprised if Iraq had lobbed some missiles (or WMDs) at the US troops as they were preparing to attack. However, Iraq obviously decided *not* to do that,
yeah, why didn't they used WMDs....perhaps they didn't had WMDs....

Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
in order to achieve some goal - they were hoping the war wouldn't start or something. So your point is?
just curious, i would have loved to see the US reaction on that attack....



Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
Oh, you forgot about those attacks on US ambassies and diplomatic missions in Africa and Pakistan? Or the countless attempts to blow up westerners (Remember that shoe-bomb guy?), or the many attacks on US troops and citizens in Saudi-Arabia, Kuwait and other countries? Or the attack on the USS Cole? Perhaps you remember the attack on those nasty Australians in Bali; you know, allies of the US?
allies....hmm but only as long as they say what bush likes to hear.....

OK, but can you link all those attacks to one nation? can you say a nation is responsible for that? If a nation comes to mind it would have bee afghanistan, but the US already liberated them (LOL).
I think a lot of attack right now are some sort of single attacks that are not linked to a certain nation. The al-kaida has broken up into samller, independent groups, hard to link them to a nation.
And I think "on a daily basis" is a <i>bit</i> exaggerated

Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
You know, like that moron that tried to blow up a bridge in New York...
Oh yeah, i forgot him. What was that for a guy? al-kaidia (of course, every terrorist is al.kaida in these days...)?
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Last edited by Pacifier; 07-19-2003 at 05:06 AM..
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Old 07-19-2003, 10:31 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
Yes, what if? What if South Korea were to attack the North for constantly provoking them? What if India decides to attack Pakistan *AGAIN*? What if the countries in Africa decide to attack each other *AGAIN*?

My principle doesn't change anything at all - countries are already attacking each other, so what's your point? You think that in reality (without my principle) they'll suddenly stop doing that, and all line up at the UN to talk? This hasn't happened over the past 50 years, so that is simply not the case.

ok, let's just think of what would happen if.

1) s.korea invades n korea - pretty gruesome, china might kick in, US might help s.korea, north might use nukes...next world war?

2) india vs pak - another nuclear scenario
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Old 07-19-2003, 12:33 PM   #63 (permalink)
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north korea would beat the snot out of south korea, but it wouldnt use nukes on south korea. not only because it has enough guns to flatten s. korea without nukes, but also because north koreans and south koreans see each other as family, and you dont really nuke your family no matter how angry you are with them.

However its wrong to conclude that just because certain countries havent been able to work out their differences through diplomacy in the past means that diplomacy is a complete waste of time. Leaders change, people change their minds, progress can be made without reaching for weapons all the time.
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Old 07-19-2003, 04:01 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace_of_Lobster
north korea would beat the snot out of south korea, but it wouldnt use nukes on south korea. not only because it has enough guns to flatten s. korea without nukes, but also because north koreans and south koreans see each other as family, and you dont really nuke your family no matter how angry you are with them.
and the US is just going to sit around and watch that?
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Old 07-20-2003, 12:19 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pacifier
the USA has failed so far to proof that there were WMDs at all. So right now it looks like the iraqi statement "we have no WMDs" was true..

BTW: the usa are searching for thei justification *after* the attack, in the above China example that would mean, that china could invade taiwan and *then* start to search for a reason.
Ah, but the point was that the US didn't *have* to prove that Iraq had them. UN resolutions demanded that Iraq provided proof that they had destroyed those weapons, which they failed to do. Saying that they destroyed them wasn't enough - they needed to provide evidence. Given that the Iraqi government (like most succesful dictatorships) had a large amount of people working to report on virtually every detail of daily life, it seems unreasonable to assume that Iraq had just gotten rid of it's WMDs without any proof whatsoever, especially since they *knew* that they had to provide that evidence later on.

Quote:

yeah, why didn't they used WMDs....perhaps they didn't had WMDs....

just curious, i would have loved to see the US reaction on that attack....
The fact that they didn't use WMDs is no proof of their non-existance. If I were to have a gun in my house, and fail to use it during a burglary, does that mean the gun doesn't exist?

As for the US reaction: it would have been swift, bloody and brutal. Any such move by Iraq would have been political (and real) suicide.

Quote:

OK, but can you link all those attacks to one nation? can you say a nation is responsible for that? If a nation comes to mind it would have bee afghanistan, but the US already liberated them (LOL).
I think a lot of attack right now are some sort of single attacks that are not linked to a certain nation. The al-kaida has broken up into samller, independent groups, hard to link them to a nation.
I don't have to link those attacks to one nation. I never said one nation was responsible. I said Al-Qaida (and it's friends) are the instigators of these attacks. Al-Qaida is actively supported by some people, and actively ignored by some countries. This has to stop. If a government chooses to ignore international terrorists operating from it's soil, it's in fact supporting these guys. In that sense, Bush was right: either you fight the terrorists (you're with us), or you support them (you're against us). There is no middle ground. You cannot just look away and claim to be independent, because that's an open invitation to terror groups to set up camp in your country... And these days, that leaves you open to an attack (military, politcal or economical) by the Western world, the targets of those terror groups.
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Old 07-20-2003, 05:38 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
Ah, but the point was that the US didn't *have* to prove that Iraq had them.
but they should be able to find them now, don't you think?

Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
it seems unreasonable to assume that Iraq had just gotten rid of it's WMDs without any proof whatsoever
unreasonable? we are talking about Saddam here, the crazy madman, remember?

Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
Any such move by Iraq would have been political (and real) suicide
hmm, not really. this war was planned long before, today i read an article, according to Lt. Gen. Michael Moseley the US had dropped over 600 bombs before the war (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Jul19.html). So Saddam never had a chance to stop this war.
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Old 07-20-2003, 06:32 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally posted by Pacifier
but they should be able to find them now, don't you think?
Well, if Saddam had indeed destroyed them, or had moved them to another country, or had hidden them in the middle of the friggin' desert... then no, they shouldn't be able to find them. Ever.

Quote:

unreasonable? we are talking about Saddam here, the crazy madman, remember?
True, but even madmen feel the need to control everything around them. Suppose Saddam had *not* documented the destruction of his WMDs, even though he had destroyed them... what the hell would be the purpose of such a move? He knew he would have to provide evidence, or else... it doesn't add up.

And actually it doesn't really matter what reasons he had, or if he had reasons at all - he was forced to provide evidence, and didn't do it. the UN had no reason to belief his claims, not after the many lies he had told them already. Without evidence, the UN had no option but to either continue inspection indefinately, or end the inspections and attack. Any other option would have meant that Saddam would get away with breaking UN resolutions. The security council would never have accepted that.

Quote:

hmm, not really. this war was planned long before, today i read an article, according to Lt. Gen. Michael Moseley the US had dropped over 600 bombs before the war (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Jul19.html). So Saddam never had a chance to stop this war.
Hell, there were many attacks on Iraq over the past decade, all of which helped prepare for this war. It would have been foolish for the US *not* to prepare the way. This does not mean Saddam couldn't stop the war. Had he provided the forementioned evidence, he would have been safe and sound. The US would never have been able to attack.
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Old 07-20-2003, 08:06 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pacifier
yeah, why didn't they used WMDs....perhaps they didn't had WMDs....

just curious, i would have loved to see the US reaction on that attack....
Rumsfeld made it very clear that if Iraq used WMDs against our troops that we would be justified to use any means necessary (including nuclear weapons) to put them down. This would most likely involve heavy civilian casualties, which is something that Saddam would be seen as responsible for.

As Dragonlich says, the burden of proof was not on us, but on Iraq to prove that they indeed destroyed their WMDs and didn't just ship them off to another country or bury them in the sand. The war on Iraq should have been ended 12 years ago.
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Old 07-20-2003, 08:42 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by seretogis
Rumsfeld made it very clear that if Iraq used WMDs against our troops that we would be justified to use any means necessary (including nuclear weapons) to put them down. This would most likely involve heavy civilian casualties, which is something that Saddam would be seen as responsible for.

oooo saddam was scared off by rummy's remarks.

and i thought that he didnt care about his people.
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Old 07-20-2003, 10:01 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Saddam would not be seen as responsible, the United States would be.
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Old 07-20-2003, 12:59 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Regardless of who would be seen as responsible, Saddam would have been toast. He wanted to survive, thus he decided not to use WMDs. Well, that's one theory anyway...

The problem is that nobody but Saddam knows what he was thinking, or if he was thinking at all. We can only judge his actions against our experience and sense of reason. To me, his actions were pretty suspicious, and I don't even have access to all the intelligence data that the US president has.
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Old 07-20-2003, 11:48 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Something I'm still wondering, other than "people died" and "bush sucks", I hjaven't gotten an answer about why this war was a bad thing?

Quote:
Well, if Saddam had indeed destroyed them
He wouldn't go to war over being modest, most probably explanation is that he moved out of the country that which he could and hid the rest.

Quote:
but they should be able to find them now, don't you think?
If the number of US military we had placed over there was quintupled then in around a month I'd start furrowing my eyebrow.

Quote:
oooo saddam was scared off by rummy's remarks.

and i thought that he didnt care about his people.
A lot of the Anti-US arguments revolve around Saddam being victimized in a way. If he is universally renowned as a evil dictator of vileness, predispositions be damned everyone will hate Saddam and like the US more.

Quote:
his point is that, iraq could have just as easily used the "pre-emptive strike" theory and started a war on the United states.
I percieve this as irrelevant because I don't think this war was a bad thing.

Quote:
Regardless of who would be seen as responsible, Saddam would have been toast. He wanted to survive, thus he decided not to use WMDs. Well, that's one theory anyway...
I concur.
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:10 AM   #73 (permalink)
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You cannot piercieve it as irrelevant because if you do you are very much saying "i dont care about it.. this time."

Look one day the U.S. will be in a slump, it might not happen in our lifetime, but hell it might and for sure it will happen one day far in the future.

And would that be justification for a more powerful nation to attack?

The reason our country doesn't pre-emptive strike on N.Korea, China, etc. is because we know getting invovled there would really really screw things up and have far worst effects. And yes also because our casualties would a lot higher and would not be so pleasing to the public.

But thats besides the point right now. Thing is though, the entire deal with whether its right or wrong should be CONSISTENT. You do not make up rules on one issue then change it to another. You stay as it should be.

Anyways I expect the U.S. to still be seen as the land of the free with justice and all that stuff. I think it very un-US like to act the way it has. I for one think its too much of the gov't playing on the 9/11 fears. People please goddamn get over it. I know those are harsh words but you do realize all of you are just playing into the gov't and using those fears to justify what it has interests in? Sure, they may truly believe it is the right thing to do, but people please at least THINK for yourselves and not keep the past from changing what youwant to do in the future.

Because if you have already changed, then the terrorists have won.
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Old 07-22-2003, 07:10 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Honestly I think we are going after the wrong country. I am pretty anti-war but I think there is one country out there we need to pay a visit too. I don't see it happening durring this administartion though.


http://msnbc.com/news/941425.asp


Quote:
THE LONG-DELAYED 900-page report also contains potentially explosive new evidence suggesting that Omar al-Bayoumi, a key associate of two of the hijackers, may have been a Saudi-government agent, sources tell NEWSWEEK. The report documents extensive ties between al-Bayoumi and the hijackers. But the bureau never kept tabs on al-Bayoumi—despite receiving prior information he was a secret Saudi agent, the report says. In January 2000, al-Bayoumi had a meeting at the Saudi Consulate in Los Angeles—and then went directly to a restaurant where he met future hijackers Khalid Almihdhar and Nawaf Alhazmi, whom he took back with him to San Diego. (Al-Bayoumi later arranged for the men to get an apartment next to his and fronted them their first two months rent.) The report is sure to reignite questions about whether some Saudi officials were secretly monitoring the hijackers—or even facilitating their conduct. Questions about the Saudi role arose repeatedly during last year’s joint House-Senate intelligence-committees inquiry. But the Bush administration has refused to declassify many key passages of the committees’ findings. A 28-page section of the report dealing with the Saudis and other foreign governments will be deleted. “They are protecting a foreign government,” charged Sen. Bob Graham, who oversaw the inquiry.
The report criticizes the Pentagon for resisting military strikes against Al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan prior to 9-11, and the CIA for failing to pass along crucial information about Almihdhar and Alhazmi at a terrorists’ summit in Malaysia. But the FBI gets the toughest treatment. A few months after al-Bayoumi took them to San Diego, Almihdhar and Alhazmi moved into the house of a local professor who was a longtime FBI “asset.” The prof also had earlier contact with another hijacker, Hani Hanjour. But even though the informant was in regular touch with his FBI handler, the bureau never pieced together that he was living with terrorists.
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Old 07-22-2003, 08:58 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darkblack
Honestly I think we are going after the wrong country. I am pretty anti-war but I think there is one country out there we need to pay a visit too. I don't see it happening durring this administartion though.

http://msnbc.com/news/941425.asp
I agree with this. Unfortunately, it was pretty much impossible to go after Saudi-Arabia with Iraq still in the picture. We needed their support to contain Saddam, and we were using their bases to do it... with Iraq out of the picture (in a few years, when it's more stable), the US might turn on SA, if they still support terror by then. They're slowly changing, so let's hope it won't be necessary.
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Old 07-22-2003, 09:04 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Well its not so easy on SA being they do export a lot of our oil and what not. Its not going to be easy without suffering a lot for our economy and SA won't fall w/o the other Arab nations all coming to help - then we'd be in some crap for it.
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Old 07-22-2003, 09:14 AM   #77 (permalink)
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no way we're even gonna remotely try to attack saudi arabia. cuz they're our "ally". remember, either you're with us or against us.

what 11/18 911 hijackers came from there and i dont even remember hearing gwb tellin saudi's to reign in the terrorists, not alone a threat against 'em.
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Old 07-22-2003, 09:57 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Well, that is my point.
We can declare a county to "Harbor Terrorists" as long as there is no gain to be had by befriending them.
This county can be pretty screwed up most of the time. Rarely do we do what is right just because it is right.

That pisses me off.
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Old 07-22-2003, 10:18 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Well thats the thing that always irked me - theres this double standard floating around. You're either with us or against us - but you're gonig to be with us if you're against us simply because you have something we want (or because it makes us better)
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Old 07-22-2003, 10:25 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Actually, the Saudis have been getting a *lot* of flak from the US government. So much in fact, that they recently decided to finally attack "Al-Qaida" terrorists (just a tag) instead of blaming terror attacks on foreigners; usually Westerners, who did it to control the illegal alcohol market... Just because it's not all over the front pages doesn't mean that the Saudis aren't getting overt threats. I'd say there were enough unofficial threats in the past years, such as a semi-official government report (later denounced as "too extreme") that suggested the US nuke Mecca.

As I said, they're slowly changing their ways, because the government there can see where this is going. They won't stay a "friend" for long if they keep ignoring the problem. Remember: Saddam used to be everyone's friend too, until he went too far.
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