Israel is willing to divide Jerusalem - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Baraka_Guru · 09-02-2010, 06:34 PM

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Israelis are willing to divide Jerusalem

By ANDY SOLTIS

Last Updated: 8:37 AM, September 2, 2010
Posted: 3:26 AM, September 2, 2010

Israel is willing to make a sweeping concession -- dividing control of Jerusalem -- as part of a historic final peace pact with Palestinians, a key Cabinet member revealed yesterday.

Defense Minister Ehud Barak signaled that his government is ready to drop its demand that even after the creation of a Palestinian state, Jerusalem would "remain the undivided capital of Israel."

"West Jerusalem and 12 Jewish neighborhoods that are home to 200,000 [Israeli] residents will be ours," Barak told the newspaper Haaretz.

"The Arab neighborhoods in which close to a quarter million Palestinians live will be theirs," he added, referring to the eastern part of the city that was captured from Jordan in the 1967 Mideast war.

Barak is a former Israeli prime minister who tried to reach a "final status" agreement with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat in the last days of Bill Clinton's administration. He blamed the talks' failure on Arafat's refusal to compromise on Jerusalem.

Privately, even hawkish Israeli officials have acknowledged for years that a comprehensive peace deal would likely have to allow the Palestinians to make east Jerusalem their capital and hand them control over part of the city.

But publicly, they insist the city that is holy to Jews, Muslims and Christians must not be cut up by politicians.

The emotional issue has dominated Israeli politics for years and even flared up during the last US presidential campaign.

In June 2008, then-Sen. Barack Obama won thunderous applause at a Washington convention of the leading pro-Israel lobbying group, AIPAC, by declaring, "Jerusalem will remain the capital [of Israel] and it must remain undivided."

Obama later backtracked and said he accepted the longstanding US policy -- that the city's future must be decided by negotiations.

Barak told Haaretz there is a way to finesse the issue of who controls some of Jerusalem's holiest sites.

"There will be a 'special regime' in place along with agreed upon arrangements in the Old City, the Mount of Olives and the City of David," he said.

Barak didn't spell out what that means.

Israel is willing to give up east Jerusalem in final deal, key official says - NYPOST.com

Well, isn't this an interesting turn of events. It appears that Israel is making a big more toward peace with this concession. Will it be enough? How much remains to be done?

Although to me this comes as good news, I'm not holding my breath or investing much in hope. This has been a long and brutal ordeal for both parties. However, I'm one to have faith in turning points, and I hope this is such a thing. After all, who would have thought the Troubles in Ireland would have a breakthrough?

What do you think? Is this going to lead to significant advances in the creation of a Palestinian state?

Pearl Trade · 09-02-2010, 07:15 PM

I'll believe it when I see it. Hopefully they can work something out and get this deal done.

Xazy · 09-03-2010, 06:21 AM

Yes but do they have a partner to negotiate with, half of the Palestinian territories is in Hamas control, who since the talks have attacked twice, once killing 4 people including a pregnant woman, and a second attack injuring 2.

And then you have during the talks, a PA Minister who during the talks gives an award from the Palestinian Authority to a mother of 4 sons who are in prison for terror attacks, and calls them heroes.
Article

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he Palestinian mother is a central partner in the struggle... It is she who gave birth to the fighters, and she deserves that we bow to her in salute and in honor."

Those were the words of the Palestinian Authority's Minister for Prisoners' Affairs, Issa Karake, when he honored a Palestinian woman by awarding her "the Shield of Resoluteness and Giving."

The Minister of Prisoners' Affairs, Karake, honors a mother of 4 terrorists with PA Shield. [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida] She received this honor because she is the mother of four sons who are serving a total of 18 life sentences in Israeli prisons. They all killed Israeli civilians in terror attacks.

The Minister also "praised the Abu Hamid family as a model of willpower and of the struggle for the independence of Palestine" when he visited the family with a ministry delegation, human rights organizations and released prisoners, the official PA daily newspaper reported.

The four sons are serving life sentences for the following crimes:

bNasser Abu Hamid- 7 life sentences + 50 years - commander in Fatah's military wing the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades in Ramallah. Convicted of killing seven Israeli civilians and 12 attempted murders.

Nasr Abu Hamid - 5 life sentences - Member of terror faction of Fatah, Tanzim, and convicted of involvement in two terror attacks and arms dealing.

Sharif Abu Hamid- 4 life sentences - a member in one of the brothers' units carrying out terror attacks against civilians and soldiers. Accompanied a suicide bomber to his attack in March 2002.

Muhammad Abu Hamid - 2 life sentences + 30 years - involvement in terror attacks. /b

Minister Karake also chose this week to visit the home of the suicide terrorist Ayyat Al-Akhras who in 2002 entered a Jerusalem supermarket and detonated a bomb murdering two Israelis and killing herself. The minister's visit took place on the occasion of the Palestinian "National Day for Returning the Bodies of Palestinian and Arab Shahids and MIA's."

The mother who received the award for having four terrorist sons was described as "Khansa of Palestine," which is a reference to Al-Khansa, a woman from the earliest period of Islam who sent her four sons to battle and rejoiced when they all died as Martyrs. Calling the Palestinian mother by this name reinforces the message that seeking death as a Martyr is a worthy and honorable goal and that parents should proudly sacrifice their children.

Palestinian Media Watch has reported: 1- PA's glorification of terror and terrorists Glorifying terrorists and terror | PMW,

2- Palestinian parents who celebrate their children's death as Martyrs Success of Shahada promotion | PMW,

3- The PA's promotion of Martyrdom Shahada (Death for Allah) promotion | PMW.

The following is an excerpt from the article about the PA Minister awarding the mother "the Shield of Resoluteness and Giving" in the official PA paper:

"Issa Karake, Minister of Prisoners' Affairs, awarded the Shield of Resoluteness and Giving to Khansa of Palestine [reference to a woman in the earliest period of Islam who sent her four sons to battle and rejoiced when they all died as Martyrs], Um Yousuf Abu Hamid, inscribed with the names of her four sons who are imprisoned in the Israeli occupation's prisons. He emphasized, 'The Palestinian mother is a central partner in the struggle, by virtue of what she has given and continues to give. It is she who gave birth to the fighters, and she deserves that we bow to her in salute and in honor.' This [was said] during a visit yesterday by [Minister] Karake and a delegation from the Ministry of Prisoners' Affairs, human rights organizations, and released prisoners, to the home of the Abu Hamid family in the Al-Am'ari refugee camp. [Karake] joined the meal breaking the [Ramadan] fast with the mother of the four prisoners who were sentenced to several life terms, as well as a fifth Shahid (Martyr) who was caught and executed on the spot by the Israeli special forces, having killed an Israeli intelligence officer and having wounded soldiers. Karake praised the Abu Hamid family as a model of willpower and of the struggle for the independence of Palestine... It should be noted that the Abu Hamid family is one of the fighting families of Palestine... All of the family's younger generation have been arrested, and four sons are still in prison: Nasser Muhammad Yousuf Naji Abu Hamid, sentenced to seven life terms and another 50 years; Nasr Muhammad Yousuf Naji Abu Hamid, sentenced to five life terms; Sharif Muhammad Yousuf Naji Abu Hamid, sentenced to four life terms; and Muhammad Muhammad Yousuf Naji Abu Hamid, sentenced to two life terms and 30 years. This is in addition to their Martyr brother, Abd Al-Mun'im Muhammad Yousuf Naji Abu Hamid, who died as a Martyr on May 31st, 1994." [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Aug. 28]

The following is the report on PA Minister Karake's visit to the suicide terrorist's home:

"Minister of Prisoners' Affairs, Issa Karake... visited the home of the Palestinian Shahida (Martyr) Ayyat Muhammad Lutfi Al-Akhras, who died a Martyrs' death on March 29th, 2004 [the correct date was March 29, 2002 when Ayyat Al-Akhras carried out a suicide terror attack in a Jerusalem supermarket, killing two Israelis, -Ed.], in the Dehaishe refugee camp. Her body is still being held in the numbered military cemetery [reference to Israeli cemetery for enemy casualties, -Ed.] within '48 occupied land. Karake's visit marked the National Day for Returning the Bodies of Palestinian and Arab Shahids and MIA's... He [Karake] condemned the Israeli policy of punishing the dead along with the living, contrary to international agreements... He said that 317 Shahids are still prisoners in the so-called numbered cemeteries and in cemeteries, lacking the minimum moral, religious and humanitarian foundations. Karake added that Israel is the only country in the world which imposes punishments on dead bodies and holds them, nameless, in cemeteries which are vulnerable to erosion in winter and to the gnawing of wild animals. Karake said that hiding the bodies of the Shahids is part of the Israeli government's evasion of responsibility and concealment of war crimes which were carried out against the Shahids, whether by field executions, abuse of their bodies, and trade or theft of their organs." [Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Aug. 30]

Baraka_Guru · 09-03-2010, 06:27 AM

Yes, and Jewish settlers announced construction in the West Bank just hours before peace talks.

Israeli settlers start new construction, defy talks | Reuters

The bottom line is that those with the power to foster change in the direction of peace will need to have the resolve to keep long-term goals in mind. No one said this would be easy, and this isn't the first time peace talks happened with tensions in the background.

Xazy, what are your thoughts from a wider, more big-picture, perspective?

Derwood · 09-03-2010, 06:31 AM

Won't this just become an East Berlin/West Berlin type thing?

Baraka_Guru · 09-03-2010, 06:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Derwood

Won't this just become an East Berlin/West Berlin type thing?

I don't know that much about Jerusalem, but I'm not sure the city could be divided in the same way. I think at worst it would be more of a psychological/cultural/religious divide than it would be a physical/geographic divide.

I'd like it if someone who knew more about the city could enlighten us on that.

Xazy · 09-03-2010, 06:49 AM

The settlement freeze was a 1 year agreed on freeze that had expired, everyone knew when the settlements were going to get started again. It is interesting how the talks were scheduled and designed to start not during the year, but just when the year was about to expire. It would have been politically smart to do it earlier.

Personally I wish I could say I see peace in the future but I do not, I know the propaganda that is taught the hatred taught to the children. I know in Israel majority will readily accept peace true peace where there are no radicals willing to blow themselves up, no suicide bombers. But I have seen dozens of photos of Palestinian babies dressed up in suicide bomber gear and know that this hatred is embedded there and since it is extremists it is not something that will go away. And yes there are some hardline Israeli's as well but they are not taking suicide bombs and blowing up Palestinian and anyone who attacks an arab gets arrested and is imprisoned in Israel. And Israel does have open elections. So while I think there are walls on both sides, I believe Israel if they can have true peace will gladly and have numerously offered concessions (and given back before) for peace. Each time there has just been more violence though.

The sad part of it was an article I found from the viewpoint of some older Palestinians who remember before 1967 when they would played with their Jewish neighbors and understood the situation from a totally different perspective from the new generation.

I think this talks will end up being mostly rhetoric for politically reasons for the world to see, Abbas does not have the ability or control to give full peace, if he ran for office again there is a high chance he would not get re-elected which is why their elections have been postponed.

Until you have been there and live there and understand the security in Israel needed for people, it is a country and people who know what it means to be surrounded by enemies, a country created in some ways because the world almost allowed Jews to become an extinct nation, attacked constantly, survival is the key concept. Security is not something that can be guaranteed as we have already seen in just this week alone.

On a side interesting point is Lebanon granting rights to Palestinians, which can in some ways help ease certain stressors, but that may take years to full help ease the tension and security issues there.

---------- Post added at 06:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:48 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I don't know that much about Jerusalem, but I'm not sure the city could be divided in the same way. I think at worst it would be more of a psychological/cultural/religious divide than it would be a physical/geographic divide.

I'd like it if someone who knew more about the city could enlighten us on that.

It will have major issues since there is the old city and temple mount which both will need to ensure security of. It is also all hills, and a very interesting area it would be very difficult to create an easy fixed division. It will probably require UN security or some agreed on security solution for the temple mount, if the talks reach that point.

But please note Barak is not Netanyahu. And while Barak may signal that, I have huge doubts that this is fully agreed on by the whole government.

MSD · 09-03-2010, 03:59 PM

It's a good start, but based on the history of peace talks, I seriously doubt that they'll be wiling to make meaningful and unconditional concessions.

Cimarron29414 · 09-12-2010, 12:25 PM

Okay, crazy thought: How 'bout none of the above? Why not make Jerusalem a Vatican-like nation-state. A secular government which manages security, income(taxation), and infrastructure. It is neither the capital of Israel nor the capital of Palestine. It is simply "Jerusalem." If you want to have a pilgrimage there, regardless of faith, knock yourself out.

Doesn't that make it so that nobody wins and, therefore, nobody loses?

Willravel · 09-12-2010, 12:44 PM

I doubt Israel would be willing to accept that, Cimarron. There are still far too many Zionists in power.

Pearl Trade · 09-12-2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

Doesn't that make it so that nobody wins and, therefore, nobody loses?

It's a nice thought, but everyone wants to win. Everybody wants to win, nobody wants to lose, that situation is impossible.

MSD · 09-12-2010, 03:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

Okay, crazy thought: How 'bout none of the above? Why not make Jerusalem a Vatican-like nation-state. A secular government which manages security, income(taxation), and infrastructure. It is neither the capital of Israel nor the capital of Palestine. It is simply "Jerusalem." If you want to have a pilgrimage there, regardless of faith, knock yourself out.

Doesn't that make it so that nobody wins and, therefore, nobody loses?

While it would work in a perfect world, I doubt that two warring parties would accept "fuck you both" as a solution to their problems.

ottopilot · 10-10-2010, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

While it would work in a perfect world, I doubt that two warring parties would accept "fuck you both" as a solution to their problems.

Finally, a real solution...Obama's plan for Israel is revealed!

ASU2003 · 10-10-2010, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I doubt Israel would be willing to accept that, Cimarron. There are still far too many Zionists in power.

I think the United Nations controlled Jerusalem early on. I think it is something to consider. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UN...stine_1947.png

Maybe they should let a bunch of Atheists run the city and decide what is fair impartially.

09-02-2010, 07:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
Pearl Trade Addict Location: Houston, Texas	I'll believe it when I see it. Hopefully they can work something out and get this deal done. __________________ Our revenge will be the laughter of our children. Give me convenience or give me death!

09-03-2010, 06:27 AM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Yes, and Jewish settlers announced construction in the West Bank just hours before peace talks. Israeli settlers start new construction, defy talks \| Reuters The bottom line is that those with the power to foster change in the direction of peace will need to have the resolve to keep long-term goals in mind. No one said this would be easy, and this isn't the first time peace talks happened with tensions in the background. Xazy, what are your thoughts from a wider, more big-picture, perspective? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

09-03-2010, 06:31 AM	#5 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	Won't this just become an East Berlin/West Berlin type thing? __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

09-12-2010, 12:25 PM	#9 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	Okay, crazy thought: How 'bout none of the above? Why not make Jerusalem a Vatican-like nation-state. A secular government which manages security, income(taxation), and infrastructure. It is neither the capital of Israel nor the capital of Palestine. It is simply "Jerusalem." If you want to have a pilgrimage there, regardless of faith, knock yourself out. Doesn't that make it so that nobody wins and, therefore, nobody loses? __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

09-03-2010, 03:59 PM	#8 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	It's a good start, but based on the history of peace talks, I seriously doubt that they'll be wiling to make meaningful and unconditional concessions.

09-12-2010, 12:44 PM	#10 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I doubt Israel would be willing to accept that, Cimarron. There are still far too many Zionists in power.