israeli navy kills gaza activists
 

o my.
so it appears that the israeli navy intercept a well-publicized flotilla of ship and activist heading to gaza with tons of supplies. shooting happened and depending on the source between 10-19 people are now dead.

Israel attacks Gaza aid fleet - Middle East - Al Jazeera English


this on the unfolding reactions to this:
Israel attacks Gaza flotilla - live coverage | World news | guardian.co.uk


more information here:
ei: The Electronic Intifada
this site has a definite agenda but the info is often quite good and is stuff you wont see elsewhere.

i have to say this surprised me quite alot. i wouldn't have expected the israeli navy to board these ships to begin with much less start shooting.

the issue behind all this is the ongoing israeli blockade of gaza, which preceded the massacre of december 2008 by over a year and which continues still. there is little pressure on israel to end the blockade really, though countries will protest about it when something comes up. the united states has shifted its policy toward israel a bit, focusing on the obvious problems caused by the settlements which is good i think, but has not gone anywhere near far enough either on them (stopping the construction of new ones is a step but they really should be taken down. all of them) or on gaza. so an international activist coalition assembled a group of ships loaded them with medical supplies and food and headed toward gaza.

and between 4-5 this morning, the boarding and shooting happened.

what do you make of this?
what should the response of the united states be?
what do you think the israelis are doing? they cannot possibly imagine that this incident helps anything....

what do you think about the ongoing blockade of the gaza strip?
is this an issue that concerns you?

I think we'll have to see what happens as more information comes to light. I'm not doubting Israel's ability to come down with a hammer.... but they are generally pretty reserved in dealing with protests and something sounds fishy.

I have to admit, my first thought was the flotilla was likely smuggling in weapons...

in the guardian news blogs you can check out a few video clips of what happened.
information is still changing around, but personally i don't believe that anyone from the flotilla did anything aggressive toward the israelis.

this edito is from ha'aretz:

ANALYSIS / Israel needs national inquiry into deadly Gaza flotilla clashes - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

i think the above line is wise. little about this makes sense...

i have a friend of mine whos a reporter here in the UAE who was on board that ship that got attacked. we had no news of him until a few moments ago.

he just called his brother to say he is fine and is in israel and that there are 15 dead and 16 wounded. the line cut out after that. will give more info as it comes to hand.

from what ive been reading and seeing, some members used sticks or batons against the israeli commandos as they were being raided. seems somewhat of an overkill to be killing people for that. im waiting for more info.

gulfnews for the other side of the news

Just FYI, Turkish governmental officials searched the flotilla very carefully for any kind of weapons before they were allowed to leave port. The last think Turkey wants is to be accused of arming Hamas. I'm afraid the evidence in this matter would suggest the flotilla was not armed as IDF claims.

Do we have any conclusive information about the legality of boarding aid boats in international waters? It was my understanding (layman) that no government has a right to do that.

i dont usually go to cnn, but if i wanted the israeli viewpoint, usually i go there.

anyways, from what ive read there, the commandos are saying they were fired on by people below deck. i cant say that its impossible to get weapons on there, but this was a well documented and popular story that's been covered in all the papers in news in the past few weeks. the last thing these guys wanted was a weapon on board.

One of those funny terms.

I am an activist
You are a gun runner

But it is a PR disaster for Israel obviously, and they are going to have to appease Turkey.

But people shouldnt be so quick to hate Israel all the time. Their reality is having missiles shot at them every week from Gaza. This informs and influances how they behave and react.

Setting up an illegal prisoner of war camp and holding people without charge and in contravention of the Geneva convention isnt that great either, but America did it. (just as the illegal internment without charhe of Irish Nationalists by the UK isnt that great)

are you suggesting that they were running guns into the country? i see this as highly unlikely because of the media exposure over the preceeding weeks leading up to this event.

It was front page news here before it even made front page news worldwide.

i dont see the relevance of your last paragraph nor how those instances can be used to justify what the israelis did today.

I am just saying that Israel are not the only country who break international law in what they perceive to be their interests

I dont know if these boats were running guns or not. The Israeli forces obviously suspected or feared that they were, the people on the boat either didnt trust the Israeli's to search the cargo, or had something to hide - at the moment we cant say which. And then someone fires a gun, or throws a rock, or hits someone with a club - and all this happens.

Israel have come out of this looking very bad certainly.

i dont see any plausible scenario in which this group of ships could be taken for running guns.

what seems a whole lot more plausible is that the (rightwing) israeli government saw the flotilla as an embarrassment---which they should but one that follows from the continued blockade of gaza---and decided to do a bit dick-waving---you know, to prevent the ships from docking and bringing evil bad publicity and medical supplies, both of which fly in the face of israel's apparent sovereign right to brutalize the population of gaza without drawing unseemly attention.

i think that was a huge mistake in principle and the material world because when you play that game there's the possibility of things getting very chaotic very quickly and people ending up dead or wounded.

a remarkably bad idea of the sort that netanyahu is famous for.

but gun running? that's nonsense.

As I said, Turkey checked the flotilla before it left. There were no weapons on board.

how the yay israel narrative gets out there and others don't.

Israeli publicity machine cranks into gear over raid on Mavi Marmara | World news | The Guardian

The whole thing is a mess and is an exercise of damage control for Israel.

Three facts about the IDF attack on the aid ships:
Source (I numbered the facts, they only had asterisks in the article)

These facts, despite all others, make for a fairly cut and dry case. While not all information is available about this incident yet, all available and independently verifiable information points to one undeniable conclusion: the IDF forces have broken the law. They had no right to make any aggressive move on the aid ships.

1) Israel has been at war with Hamas for decades. They still receive weekly (if not daily) rocket attacks on their civilians.
2) Israel has a right to blockade Gaza as the location for which the majority of rocket attacks are launched from.
3) Regardless of the incidents, Hamas and the PLO have 60 years of smuggling in weapons through "peaceful" supply lines.

Not really as I've pointed out.

Look I'm not saying it's possible that the ships were completely empty of weapons. Israel has a history of doing things for which they believe is in their defense which appear to not make any sense (including their navy sinking one of our intelligence ships).

However to point fingers before the truth falls out is bullshit.

well, the rocket thing is wildly exaggerated, both in terms of the number of attacks and in particular their effects. this is not to say "yay rockets!" or anything like that. rather it is to say that everything about these attacks have been inflated and manipulated to justify continued brutality visited upon the population of gaza.

second, it's a matter of record that the reason for the blockade is regime change---the israelis made what turned out to be a stupid and brutal tactical choice when hamas won elections in 2006 (i think) & israel decided to undermine hamas by choking the civilian population. so the blockade has been outrageous illegal and brutal from the start--but it's never been about these rocket attacks. it's about trying to starve the population of gaza into no longer supporting hamas politically.

third, if the arms smuggling is a problem that would be a reason to clamp down on the tunnels into sinai that enable gaza to survive at all. and over the past few months egypt has been doing exactly that. i'm not sure of the status of that (they were basically building an underground metal barrier through the tunnel area) but if it's completed or close that would really increase the pressure on the **civilian** population of gaza. which may well be a motivation behind the flotilla. but the idea that the flotilla itself would have arms is patently absurd. the ships are chock-a-block with well-known political figures including egyptian members of parliament, novelists, peace activists, etc.

so i don't think any of these justifications holds any water.

but even if they did this raid is still a remarkably bad idea. consider for example the implications for relations with egypt.

it might be that some of this goes back to a quite famous exchange between the turkish prime minister and olmert (i'm not sure...it mighta been perez) during the gaza atrocity...um...incursion. i can see maybe some sense of fuck you from israeli conservatives aimed at turkey for that. so it's possible that the raid is more about the prominent role of turkish organizations and interests in organizing it than any nonsense about weapons.

just a thought.

the people on board the ships were not hamas and were not armed. That the videos released by the IDF itself shows no initial gunfire from the ship should be enough evidence of that.

People on a ship responded to an illegal boarding in international waters by resisting armed commandos with chairs and bats. An injury to one of those commandos led to the killing of 15 to 16 civilians who were resisting to an unlawful boarding. Short of evidence of the ship engaging the Israeli navy in international waters, what happened is pretty much indefensible from any moral or legal perspective.

I read somewhere that the Israeli's had paintball guns and a side-arm, and were only allowed to use the side-arm if something bad started to happen, which obviously did. Anyone else hear anything about that? In the video Baraka put up you can clearly see a soldier holding a paintball gun, as other soldiers around him are being attacked. It's around the 1:02 minute mark in the video.

Boarding the ships in international waters isn't the best idea, they should have waited until they were legally allowed to board them. Why did the people on the ship attack the soldiers? Their intent was to kill, seeing as how they threw them overboard and attacked the soldiers with pipes. I find it hard to believe that specially trained soldiers like this would start killing people without being provoked by a life threatening force.

..

right because it's ok for a regional military superpower to lay a 3 year seige to a half million civilians because that regional military superpower didn't like the way an election turned out.

poor israel. yeah.

o and by the way there's a wide range of political viewpoints in israel and alot---ALOT--of israelis don't think the barbaric tactics preferred by the right are ok.

why you'd have to watch tv in the united states to imagine there was anything like unanimity around the policies of likud and the whackjob rightwing organizations that represent those fine settler interests.

so this is about a remarkably stupid action that has ALOT of israelis aghast (read some of the israeli press and stop watching fox) undertaken on the watch of a rightwing government that's made up of ultra-rightwing parties as part of the coalition that alot of israelis do not support. it's nothing like "poor israel, they're always wrong." except maybe in the world of sean hannity. but who takes hannity et al seriously?

Do you have anything to contribute? If you have a factually supported opinion, I'd like to read it. I've been on Reddit on and off all day about this and, dismissing the outright propaganda, I've been enjoying real debates with people that have a different perspective.

It ain't over, apparently.

Activists to take another run at Gaza blockade - thestar.com

Does anyone find this ironic? 70 years ago, ships were trying to get into Palestine loaded with aid, guns and Jewish refugees, and being boarded, attacked and turned back by British ships and commandos. Now ships are trying to get into Palestinian territory loaded with aid and being boarded and attacked by Israeli commandos.

Sorry I believe in the right to defense of a country, and I cannot imagine how the US would reply if it was their
troops. Israel offered to deliver the goods if they allowed them to inspect them, Israel warned them repeatedly.

this provides a strange window onto the upside-down world of things conservative=to-moderate functionaries are saying about this raid:

No benefit of the doubt? - The Arena | POLITICO.COM

it's kind of grim the degenerate nature of much of what's here. but if this nonsense is an indication of the "thinking" in washington about the raid, then perhaps the administration's silence on the matter makes a little more sense. on its own terms, i mean. personally, i think that silence is reprehensible.

meanwhile:

washingtonpost.com

this bonehead editorial says that the obama administration messed up by criticizing netanyahu's positions on the settlements so now they can't criticize them about the raid:

PostPartisan - Obama, Netanyahu and the Free Gaza flotilla

This was in international waters.

And if we are going to respond in what ifs, what would be the reaction if this was Cuba opening fire on unarmed civilians in international waters? Cuban exiles have more than once used boats to make anti-Castro transmissions into Cuba, for example.
Or how about the reaction to the North Korean sinking of a South Korean ship?

Clearly Israel's right to defend itself is far more valuable than the right of communists to defend themselves. It's an entrenched moral relativism.

Regardless, there is enough negative reaction worldwide to suggest that Israel made a serious blunder here.

If Israel truly wanted to enforce a blockade, it should have waited for the ships to get into Israeli waters, searched them for contraband, and then turned the ships back. This raid was a terrible call by some suit in some position in the Israeli government. The soldiers were forced to obey the order, illegally board a boat, get attacked by deadly weapons and use deadly force to defend themselves. There is no self-defense justification because the deadly force was used during the commission of a seemingly illegal act.

So, the soldiers committed what seem to be illegal actions but may have had no choice. In the US, a soldier can refuse an order which he believes violates his oath or that he believes is illegal. I don't know if Israeli soldiers can do the same. Does anyone know? Obviously, Israeli commandos are thoroughly indoctrinated and perhaps they don't rise out of the haze of devout nationalism long enough to evaluate if this is "the right thing to do."

Regardless, I can't see how one could support the Israeli position here. In every case, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but I really don't want my country to abuse my service and put me in such a lose-lose decision. This whole thing sucks all the way around.

things get curiouser and curiouser. apparently there's now indications that a couple of the boats from the flotilla were sabotaged and that the flotilla was itself the object of "grey operations." the explanation that's being floated is obvious---the same phantom weapons that the idf was on about yesterday.

infotainment on this:

Gaza aid flotilla: Israeli sabotage suspected | World news | The Guardian

so let's exclude this weapons nonsense and the standard right wing giant terrorist boogeyman along with it. both seem obvious bullshit. and if the israelis were so worried about weapons coming in they wouldn't have gone after a flotilla with egyptian mps as part of the entourage because a reopened tunnel system back up is WAY more likely to function as a source of weapons than is a highly publicized group of international activists who are interested in ending the 3-year siege of the civilian population of gaza.

just saying.

so that can't be why they did this.
personally i think that the idf was concerned about the political damage allowing the flotilla would cause simply by virtue of the amount of media coverage it would necessarily bring to conditions in gaza. so there must have been a decision taken that's it was less damaging to do things this way, even though it meant 10-15 dead activists and 30 wounded. somewhere there was a calculation that holding hundreds of people hostage after an act of piracy was less damaging than having conditions exposed on the gaza strip. it was apparently less damaging because the spin concerning phantom weapons and the giant terrorist boogeyman are within the control of the idf press machinery and the free gaza action would not have been.

There is a history here that needs to be revisited, but first a seemingly unbiased viewpoint of the recent incident.

1. Mr. Netanyahu defended the Israeli military’s actions, saying the commandos, enforcing what Israel says is a legal blockade, were set upon by passengers on the Turkish ship they boarded and fired only in self-defense. The military released a video of the early moments of the raid to support that claim.
2. Israel said the violence was instigated by pro-Palestinian activists who presented themselves as humanitarians but had come ready for a fight. Organizers of the flotilla accused the Israeli forces of opening fire as soon as they landed on the deck, and released videos to support their case. Israel released video taken from one of its vessels to supports its own account of events.
3. The Israeli public seemed largely to support the navy,
4. Israel had vowed not to let the flotilla reach the shores of Gaza, where Hamas, an organization sworn to Israel’s destruction, took over by force in 2007.
5. Israel warned the vessels to abort their mission, describing it as a provocation.
6. The confrontation began shortly before midnight on Sunday when Israeli warships intercepted the aid flotilla, according to a person on one boat. The Israeli military warned the vessels that they were entering a hostile area and that the Gaza shore was under blockade. (they were not awoken at 4 a.m. by being shot at in bed, as one “activist” claimed.)
7. The vessels refused the military’s request to dock at the Israeli port of Ashdod, north of Gaza, and continued toward their destination.
8. Around 4 a.m. on Monday, naval commandos came aboard the Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, having been lowered by ropes from helicopters onto the decks.
9. Israeli officials say that the soldiers were dropped into an ambush and were attacked with clubs, metal rods and knives.
10. An Israeli official said that the navy was planning to stop five of the six vessels of the flotilla with large nets that interfere with propellers, but that the sixth was too large for that. The official said there was clearly an intelligence failure in that the commandos were expecting to face passive resistance, and not an angry, violent reaction.
11. The Israelis had planned to commandeer the vessels and steer them to Ashdod, where their cargo would be unloaded and, the authorities said, transferred overland to Gaza after proper inspection.
12. The military said in a statement that two activists were later found with pistols taken from Israeli commandos. It accused the activists of opening fire, “as evident by the empty pistol magazines.”
13. Another soldier said the orders were to neutralize the passengers, not to kill them.
14. But the forces “had to open fire in order to defend themselves,” the navy commander, Vice Adm. Eliezer Marom, said at a news conference in Tel Aviv, adding, “Their lives were at risk.”
15. At least seven soldiers were wounded, one of them seriously. The military said that some suffered gunshot wounds; at least one had been stabbed. (maybe he just shot himself, his gun was taken from him by the “passive” activists, who were all supposedly asleep in their beds when the mean ole Israelis can shooting form the sky on their drop ropes, right?)
16. The fatalities all occurred aboard the Mavi Marmara, a Turkish passenger vessel that was carrying about 600 activists under the auspices of Insani Yardim Vakfi, an organization also known as I.H.H. Israeli officials have characterized it as a dangerous Islamic organization with terrorist links. (600 activists headed to gaza, why….. maybe to join the battle, maybe to confront the Isrealis who would come and board the ship, a dangerous Islamic organization with ties to terrorist.)
17. There were no immediate accounts available from the passengers of the Turkish ship, which arrived at the naval base in Ashdod on Monday evening, where nearly three dozen were arrested, many for not giving their names. The base was off limits to the news media and declared a closed military zone. (only cowards don’t give their names when they stand up for something they believe in {or terrorist on the watch list}, why not be proud and tell your name?
18. Organizers of the flotilla, relying mainly on footage filmed by activists on board the Turkish passenger ship, because all other communications were down, blamed Israeli aggression for the deadly results. (relying on footage filmed by activists….. blamed Israelis….. you don’t say….)
19. The Israeli soldiers dropped onto the deck and “opened fire on sleeping civilians at four in the morning,” said Greta Berlin, a leader of the pro-Palestinian Free Gaza Movement, speaking by phone from Cyprus on Monday. (all 600 hundred were sleeping on the deck, and these nasty Israelis came down on their ropes with guns blaring, bull shit…..)
20. Israeli officials said that international law allowed for the capture of naval vessels in international waters if they were about to violate a blockade.
21. The blockade was imposed by Israel and Egypt after the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007. (imposed by BOTH Israel and Egypt after the Hamas took over Gaza)
22. Israel’s deputy foreign minister, Danny Ayalon, said Monday that the blockade was “aimed at preventing the infiltration of terror and terrorists into Gaza.”
23. Despite sporadic rocket fire from the Palestinian territory against southern Israel, Israel says it allows enough basic supplies through border crossings to avoid any acute humanitarian crisis.
24. But it insists that there will be no significant change so long as Hamas continues to hold Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier captured in a cross-border raid in 2006.
25. The Free Gaza Movement has organized several aid voyages since the summer of 2008, usually consisting of one or two vessels. The earliest ones were allowed to reach Gaza.
26. Others have been intercepted and forced back, and one, last June, was commandeered by the Israeli Navy and towed to Ashdod. This six-boat fleet was the most ambitious attempt yet to break the blockade.

They knew what they were doing to instigate the blockade action, they must have watched whale wars and figured out how to draw the attention they desired while portraying themselves as innocent victims, there are no innocent victims when you step foot aboard a ship to deliver “contraband” to a war inflicted area where you have been told not to go, they were prepared for these soldiers, they were prepared for this fight, they took it to the Israelis and the Israelis shut it down, while protecting themselves, the flotilla had every opportunity to turn back and to change coarse and yet the activist leader put their own patron in danger. But everyone is looking now, and everyone is blaming the dirty rotten Israelis, bull shit.

Hamas:
1. Hamas perpetrated numerous suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks, at first in order to sabotage the Oslo Accords and peace process, and then as part of the Second Intifada.
2. In June of 2006, Hamas affiliates captured an Israeli soldier by tunneling across the border between Gaza and Israel
3. In June of 2007, Hamas ousted Fatah forces from Gaza in a bloody coup, throwing Fatah members off the roofs of buildings after shooting them in the knees. At least one Fatah member was sliced into steaks that were sent to his family.
4. Since Gaza had been totally evacuated by Israel in the unilateral disengagement of 2005, Hamas currently (2009) rules Gaza as a de facto state government. It has used Gaza as a base for launching rocket attacks against Israel.
5. On June 19, 2008, Israel and Hamas concluded a "lull" or Tahdiya agreement that was brokered by Egypt. Hamas, but not Israel, declared that this truce was for a period of six months. Rocket fire from Gaza was reduced but not stopped. Hamas greatly stepped up smuggling of arms through tunnels beneath the Egyptian controlled Rafah crossing.
6. Hamas dismissed the international monitors that were to have controlled the Rafah crossing, and then declared that Gaza is "under siege." Israel retaliated for rocket fire by closing the Israeli crossings periodically.
7. On December 18, 2008, Hamas declared that they would not renew the truce. Thereafter, Hamas and associated organizations directed a rain of rocket and mortar fire at Israeli towns and cities, reaching as far as 45 KM away with Grad rockets that had been smuggled in during the lull period.
. On December 26, 2008, Israel launched operation Cast Lead, attacking the Hamas in Gaza at first by air and later in a limited ground invasion.

Hamas Principles:

1. "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
2. "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
3. "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
4. "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

The charter is a rather classical Islamist document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution. It cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery.One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this Hadith: The Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realization of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).
Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. Some observers deny the relation between the Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. However, the Charter states: The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times.

Moreover, the Charter quotes Hassan Al-Banna, a Nazi sympathizer who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. There is no doubt that the Hamas views itself as a part of the Muslim Brotherhood and an ideological heir of al Banna. The Muslim Brotherhood spawned a number of radical Islamist movements including Al-Qaeda.

including Al-Qaeda……

Current Hamas Positions

1. "Jews are a people who cannot be trusted. They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing." Ref IHT 1 April 08
2. "suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next." Astal concluded "Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews.Ref IHT 1 April 08
3. "We will not rest until we destroy the Zionist entity" stated Hamas leader Fathi Hammad in Gaza on Friday January 2nd 2009 - ref -- BBC 2 January 09
4. In a sermon aired on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated, "Today, Rome is the capital of the Catholics, or the Crusader capital, which has declared its hostility to Islam, and has planted the brothers of apes and pigs in Palestine in order to prevent the reawakening of Islam. I believe that our children, or our grandchildren, will inherit our jihad and our sacrifices, and, Allah willing, the commanders of the conquest will come from among them" He maintained that Rome would become, ""an advanced post for the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe." Ref- Fox 14 Apr. 2008

There is more than one side to this story, the blockade is not new, and the secreting in of boycotted materials is well known by the Israelis, they were within the rights of protection of the Israelis citizens and the continued conflict to board the vessel. The history behind this conflict must not be forgotten or the sympathies toward the hamas may well overtake the necessity to remove them from power and to insure they cannot follow through with their principles of destruction for any and all those who do not believe what they want you to, everyone, that is their principles, that is their positions, and it still rings true today in the remarks made by those who in power would still see the destruction of all that is not Islam.

In a sermon aired on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television, cleric Yunis Al Astal stated, “the Islamic conquests, which will spread though Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, even Eastern Europe.”
This IS the foundation of their belief, the hamas, al-qaeda, et al. the complete destruction of the Hebraic lineage of history, period. There is very little room for freedom in the jihad minds and zero room for freedom outside the IRM or the radicals within the Muslim Brotherhood.

I am NOT attacking Muslims, I am not attacking those who are tolerant of others beliefs, I am merely stating facts about a people (the extremist) whose fundamental belief in the superiority of their own ideology, and the DESTRUCTION of any and all alternate views, and who would fight to death, forever, until they achieve their singular purpose in the annihilation of all that is Hebrew and New Testament, outside of Ishmael, but wanting to destroy the history of their own brother Isaac, or their father Abraham and all those who came from their lineage or beliefs. It’s just more intolerance's within the confines of religious warfare, but to staunch zealots like the majority of the hamas and al qaeda, there is no alternative to Allah, so assimilate or die, and most will die merely because of your lineage outside the Ishmael line.


I’m sure, since this is partially associated with the FOX network that I will be labeled an extremist right winger, a conservative wacko, if that is how you push aside your own reality, to just assume that all who are not supporting your views are against you, then it is not I who is lost in this effort of world cohesiveness, tolerance and equality, it is you who will lose yourselves to complacency, justification and pacification wherein you will slowly dissolve your own resolution of that which you seek to accomplish, a world of tolerance and equality and whine as it slips from your grasp into tyranny by those who would never admit to being your equal.

Idyllic,
And which, of all these actions you outline, were committed by the people on those boats?

And which international treaty or law allows a nation to board a ship in international waters?


The fact that in order to defend this action people must change the subject to organizations and people not associated or on the boat is telling.

from the middle east report online:

Middle East Report Online: Outlaws of the Mediterranean, From the Editors

if you look here, you see the internal political fallout really starting to take shape as it's now the story that the raid happened without anyone's explicit approval, just a kind of spontaneous combustion thing:

Netanyahu: World criticism won't stop Israel's blockade of Gaza - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

meanwhile, any idea you might be entertaining that this has wide-spread support in israel has to be coming from deep inside the likud/ultra-right spin machine:

Seven idiots in the cabinet - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

and in reality, not in the world of conservative myths, relations between israel and the united states are taking a real pounding thanks to the unbelievable incompetence of the netanyahu government. but hey don't take my word for it:

Mossad chief: Israel gradually becoming burden on U.S. - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

---------- Post added at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 PM ----------

i'm working, so have to duck in and out...

here's a piece that outlines something of conditions under the israeli siege:

ei: "No other options:" Gaza's tunnel industry

Oh yeah, and as a general FYI, the blockade of Gaza has a lot more to do with securing a market for Israeli goods than actual security.

my reporter friend is fine, but is still in israel under some sort of arrest. he's due out tomorrow so ill hear his story first hand if any of you guys are interested.

no ones' been able to glean any further info because his phone calls are monitored and he hasnt been able to speak. the truth will prevail.

idyllic - i have no idea what sort of tangent you've gone on, but that antimuslim dribble doesnt really belong here in this thread. it's irrelevant. i'd be happy to discuss turkeys' islamic connection with hamas because it pertinant to this whole story.

it was predictable i suppose that the israelis would try to link the flotilla to some "terrorist organization" wasn't it?

Israel envoy in Geneva: Gaza flotilla activists linked to terror groups - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

just as it was predictable that the united states block attempts at condemnation of the action from the un security council or even an investigation of the whole thing, preferring instead an investigation of "acts" within the raid and stipulating that so far as the united states is concerned it'd be hunky dory were israel to investigate itself.

meanwhile the first accounts from the side of the flotilla are starting to surface.
they don't square with those of the idf. what a surprise.

Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists | World news | guardian.co.uk


====

dlish: please do post what you hear.

An couple interesting comment from this story above:
They were just kindly activists, right? They were told to turn around, they were told not to do this, they insisted to continue, they were the provokers also. There are other ways of delivering aid to gaza, they did this intentionally to provoke Israel and then to provoke the soldiers and finally to draw the attention of the world while attempting to demonize Israel. Do we no longer talk of the 500+ citizens and innocents killed in the past few months by terrorist (hamas, al-qaeda, hezbollah, et.al.) suicide bombers, bull shit. These were no activists, they were hate filled animals.

sorry idyllic, but you dont know that. Youre making an emoptive assumption based on the defensive actions of a ship that is threatened in international waters and iilegally taken over by israel.

wait, do i hear you calling for israel to be charged with piracy?


please name one person, or one shred of evidence to show that these activists were alqaida, hamas or hezbollah. sources please.

this is the spot of fundamental disagreement, idyllic.
i see no comparison at all between israel--a regional military superpower--and the people of gaza. the siege--and it's nothing short of that--is barbaric to my mind. and i've done ALOT of research on this, have worked out alot of about what's happening on the ground there.
and i have no problem with any and all international pressure that could bring an end to that siege.

i also knew that when netanyahu was elected with a small enough majority that he had to form a coalition with the extreme right that things would not go well for palestinians in general and for the people of gaza in particular. and they haven't---working out a deal with egypt on the principle of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, so based on mutual distrust of hamas, resulted in the shutting down of the tunnel systems that made life bearable under israeli occuption.

and don't forget about the consequences of the israeli massacre in gaza of last winter.
and the fact that israel has prevented rebuilding.
the **whole** of which was predicated on some harebrained idea that hamas could be undermined the way the plo was undermined, by a colonialism that made it almost impossible to deliver basic services. that's the strategy.

and you have to swallow alot of nonsense to get around that basic reality.
one spigot of nonsense is the old frame-switch. the usual likud-y settler-party story about poor persecuted israel and those nasty rockets. which i am not condoning btw--but let's be real. hamas launches most of its rockets into fields. they don't do anything like the damage the israelis do to gazans.
factor in last year's massacre and you'll get the picture.

the flotilla was designed to create a pr problem for the israeli siege.
the netanyahu government's bungled attempt to manage that resulted in a success beyond the activitist's wildest expectation.
it is a p.r. fiasco for israel.
and there's no unanimity about this action inside israel at all. at. all. where there's a sense of unanimity is amongst conservative american commentators who rarely let reality get in the way when it comes to israel.

personally, i think they should have let the ship land and allowed the media rituals to happen. one of netanyahu's 7 idiot cabinet ministers made this argument. that woulda been the smart way to deal with it. let it happen, let the attention come and blow over. people forget.

but instead, the idf fucked up. a big big big mistake. i havent any idea what the consequences will be, but i think it'd sure be nice for the rightwing government that's responsible for this to fall, don't you?

Let me second Dlish's request for any source that shows that those aboard the ships were hamas, al qaeda or hezbollah.

Considering there are people in this thread with friends on those ships, I would imagine that backing up allegations like that before calling anyone "hate filled animals" is just basic decency.

And considering the ship was in international waters, the law is crystal clear: the people on the ships had a right to defend themselves, not the Israelis.

I also find it interesting that so many people seem so willing to just take Israel's word on this.

I find this odd because the United States has, itself, been a victim of Israeli Piracy (as distinct from Privateering or Acts Of War) in the attack on the USS Liberty in 1967. While this action did not involve boarding of the targeted ship (USS Liberty) it was conducted in international waters, outside the scope of the declared conflict, against a non-combatant vessel and for concrete gain. As a result, I classify it as Piracy; YMMV.

The reason I find this odd is that the same people (right-Statist "conservatives") who insist that we take Israel's word on this current (and that previous) act of Piracy are also the same people who usually demand "blood for blood, and by the gallons!" when US assets, ships, personell or facilities are attacked.

Attacking American warships in international waters is bad, and the attackers must be vigorously punished....unless the attackers are Israeli.

Boarding foreign-flagged vessels in international waters by force of arms is Piracy, and Pirates must be punished....unless the Pirates are Israeli.

I'm personally in favour of issuing Letters Of Marque And Reprisal against Pirates and hunting them down to the last man (if possible.) I'm also in favour of any crew which finds itself being boarded by Pirates mowing those Pirates down with belt-fed machinegun and shotgun fire if possible, and simply throwing them overboard to feed the sharks if not. I can't see anything in this incidence which would cause me to modify my position on this.

dlish, I called them animals. I said they were not kindly activists, I did not label them as hamas, al-qaeda or hezbollah, I did make a statement about the 500+ deaths in the last few months attributed to these terrorist however, but I did not say these terrorist were on the ship, but I wouldn't be surprised, thanks for the connection.

Here is what I said:

You called them 'hate filled animals', not animals.
You always seem to have some excuse or something when you get called on things you type, you may not have said it directly, but you sure did imply it, and now you start the usual back peddle.
Like you hadn't already made that connection.

The problem, Idyllic, is that Israel specifically forbids the importation to Gaza of certain materials which they insist are "dual use" and would be appropriated by, stolen by, or simply -given to- Hamaz/Hezb'Allah/Al-Q, etc.

Among these prohibited "dual use" materials are cement, concrete, all types of iron or steel (including rebar and hardware cloth), aluminum, copper wiring of any type, etc.

Can you use these things to build bunkers and make shrapnel for bombs? Of course you can, but you can also use sand-bags and carpet-tacks. What these materials are -usually- used for is construction...as in replacing the hundreds of civilian homes and businesses which the Israelis have destroyed and not permitted to be rebuilt. That's what was allegedly on these vessels: construction materials. When the several tonnes of rebar are "discovered," as they will be, the Israeli Gov't will predictably claim that they interdicted a huge shipment of weapons (pre-shrapnel, maybe?) bound for Hamas/Hezb'Allah terrorists and all but primed for launch. It's how they've reacted to such "contraband" in the past, and they've given no indication of being willing to stop dealing with Gaza in this way.

Essentially, Israel will only allow stuff into Gaza that has no -possible- use, not even a theoretical ability, as a weapon. Given the amount and kinds of HME* that can be cooked up with the contents of a medicine cabinet, garage, or kitchen cupboard, you can see how this excessively broad definition might be problematic for the people of Gaza.


*Home-Made Explosive

i made that connection for you huh? the connection was all yours idyllic.

lets not play silly buggers here. you know as well as i do what you meant. the fact that you rephrased two of your own words speaks for itself.

'kindly activist's was originally ' activists'

'hate filled animals' became 'animals'

softening the blow are we?

still waiting on those sources...

Either way, that's strong language for a Holocaust survivor and a Nobel Peace Prize winner, among others.

* * * * *

And here's an interesting bit I read in a Globe and Mail article:
Israel's status slips as governments around world condemn raid - The Globe and Mail

here's the passenger list from each of the 9 voyages organized by free gaza.
have a look.

Freegaza - Passengers

not at all what you might think, who you might think, if you rely on the israeli right/ultra-right and it's pretty massive us media spin machine for your infotainment.

I have not come to any conclusions on this matter and I still have an open mind. I am also conservative and I generally support Israel.

What do you think was Israel's motivation in this matter?
Do you think it was premeditated? Insitgated?
What does Israel have to gain, given what happened?
Do you think all Israelis support the action taken?
Who should conduct the investigation?
If Israel is guilty of violating international law what should the punishment be?

So, did Israel find any weapons on board besides the ones they carried on (and may have been taken)?

The Israeli navy should have stopped them, but allowed a third party search the boats for any illegal substances before letting it go. Israel is going to have a hard time spinning this one. And making people live in realy bad conditions won't get them to think they voted for the wrong people in 2007. They will just hate them more, which isn't what is needed in that region.

i think israel made a serious political error. as one of the ministers in netanyahu's cabinet argued last week (it's in an article from haaretz above) it would've made a whole lot more sense to let the flotilla land and get the press because it woulda gone away in a few days.

and this is the 9th such flotilla, btw. did you hear much about the other 8?

i've already answered all these questions above....

Just my take:

What do you think was Israel's motivation in this matter?
The IDF's policies tend to revolve around asymmetrical warfare as a method of psyops, in order to intimidate enemies or possible enemies into thinking twice. Bearing that in mind, this was probably a strong response intended to deter further aid ships from trying to run their blockade. It would be devastating politically if the IDF was having to stop aid ship after aid ship from getting to Gaza. At least that's how I see it.

You have to bear in mind that a lot of policy in the Israeli government and military revolves around fear. I don't mean to offend anyone, in fact fear is a logical response to attempted genocide. The problem is that the fear in some Israeli officials and upper echelon military leads them to lose some objectivity. This has lead to common instances of asymmetrical warfare such as the attack on Gaza last year and the attack on Lebanon in 2006 (among many others). I would imagine it's the same phenomena you can see in children who were physically abused.

Do you think it was premeditated? Insitgated?
This was premeditated by both sides, though somehow I don't think the humanitarians on the flotilla knew there would be risk of fatality. they both instigated and a lot of it was premeditated by both sides.

What does Israel have to gain, given what happened?
Scaring the shit out of future flotillas. I consider myself to be a brave man, but I don't know if I'd be willing to be shot in order to get building materials to Gaza. I want to help them, but there are, as I see it, reasonable limits on my charity and aid.

Do you think all Israelis support the action taken?
They're not of one mind on anything. Some Israelis support this and others do not. I suspect there are even some that don't care.

Who should conduct the investigation?
NATO, Turkey, Israel, and perhaps the UN should all hold independent investigations.

If Israel is guilty of violating international law what should the punishment be?
Ending the blockade on Gaza.

Israel even bans stuff that have no possible use as a weapon.

This is a list of items that are prohibited, compiled by an Israeli organization:

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/Hidd...trip060510.pdf


They not only ban stuff that could theoretically be used in weapons, but stuff that could be made into stuff that Israel exports into Gaza. Goats, cattle, etc. for example, are banned. But frozen meats produced by Israeli farmers is not. Empty containers are prohibited, but those same containers filled with Israeli produced goods are allowed.

Thank you. Please do. What a great source of information (terrible whats happening). Thanks again for sharing.

I feel like this is the sort of thread in which I should like to contribute, but I'm having difficulty thinking of something original or meaningful to say.

We can argue over the specific circumstances of this incident, most of which are already quite clear. (This would include tactical-level questions like: who initiated violence? was the ship in int'l waters? what was onboard? did the israelis offer to deliver the flotilla's aid themselves?) I'm happy to engage on that, though I don't think it's terribly interesting. For what it's worth, I'm indirectly connected to some of the protesters, and I think the leadership knew what it was getting into. Provocation is part of the game, though I don't think they expected things to escalate this far.

But to my mind, these are of minor importance when compared with the backdrop to the story; the fact that Israel has unilaterally enforced a blockade of basic supplies into Gaza (with the aim of deprivation just short of mass starvation) while simultaneously claiming that they 'freed' Gaza and were rewarded with Hamas rockets. It is an outrageously disingenuous narrative. A prison is still a prison so long as the outer walls are guarded by men with guns.

Drawing global attention to these facts has been the aim of the Free Gaza Movement. It is tragic that it took an incident like this for them to succeed there.

O.k. so now we are on something to peruse, why it is, do you think, that Israel allowed 8 flotillas to pass and yet at the ninth one they interced before the ships hit waters near the palestine/gaza arena of play. Why do you think they would take such risks to approach a ship that had been o.k.ed by Turkey and still they board her, why.....? Why do you think other ships connected with the flotilla outside the port, ships meeting in open water after they had been searched for contraband, why do you all think that Israel did not have a reason to do what they did? Why do you think the ship that returned to a port happened to drop all its passengers onto the Mavi Marmara, more bodies to fight in this preplanned confrontation, maybe?

I can’t imagine why Israel might want to insure the flotillas are not carrying anything that can be lobed at them, like what they have experienced for the last 10 years of daily terror from a regime that is known for its cruelty.

2001 to 2007 is 6 to 7 years of rocket and mortar fire, not to mention suicide bombers, anyway 2,383 confirmed rocket hits and 2,500 mortar rounds in (365 x 7) 2,555 days, so we are looking at about 1 rocket and 1 mortar every single day for 7+ years from the gaza strip region have been lobbed over into the homes and businesses of the Israelis people, when does this stop? What do you suggest they do to stop the bombers and the rockets and the mortars, what should they do, how should they protect their own people?

Yes jay, I called them hate filled animals, (my initial statement was what it is, I never changed it, I even quoted it, no edits, jay and no back peddling either) watch the video, the soldiers came down the lines and were immediately attacked, this was not the first boarding, they boarded five other ships in the flotilla and did not meet this kind of resistance, these "activists” knew the drill, IDF will search, will seize, will take you to a port, unload and deliver non contraband aid over roadways and send the “activists” home, or prison for resistance or contraband. But these “activists” had knives and metal poles and beat them, threw them off the deck, stabbed them, so they defended themselves.

Listen, we may never know until the release of information what was the true justification behind this move to board the flotilla in international waters, but we have seen, as rb points out, 8 or so flotillas pass without this same form of issue, why do you think that NOW this occurs, what do you think lead Israel to respond to the flotilla not turning around, and why didn't they....? There is more to this than what we a privy to, more to the underlying issue than can be shared until links are connected and issues resolved to a varying degree of comprehension.

I know Israel is powerful, I know Israel can be seen as aggressive, but they have reason to protect themselves, this cannot be denied or forgotten, as we all wish to stop the terrorist attacks, we still have to recognized the mentality of the terrorist and the drive they feel to murder Jews and infidels, you cannot be blinded to the inherent discord within the foundations of the terrorists’ minds, these terrorist will use whatever means to bring about their souls' purpose and that is the death of Israel, the death of Jews, the death of infidels, it is their way, they live and breath it.

I do not want to see any people persecuted or harmed especially killed, but tolerance of terrorism is not permitted, there is no justification for blowing oneself up in a public place surrounded by innocents, there is no justification for using your own country men, women and children as shields and weapons, the reality is that the hamas is linked to al qaeda is linked to many brands of terror encampments within and without the arab communities, the Muslim communities, it is by the nature of their beliefs in the Koran, as shaped by fundamental extremist, that these "terror" attacks persist and will continue to do so until the mentality of a broken people, who are reared in death and maiming, ends. Until that time, there can be no trust; there can be no complacency, for it is the acknowledged intent of the hamas to destroy Israel and the Jews, period.

You can see pictures of confiscated weapons and videos, impressive videos, at this site below:

IDF forces met with pre-planned violence when attempting to board flotilla 31-May-2010

This is not a game of who did what first or last or whenever, this is the reality of a mentality within the terrorist sect that will not be resolved until the moderate Muslims stand up to the extremist and the fundamental religious zealots and remove from the Arab people the glorification and martyrdom of hate and persecution and destruction they are feed from infancy in spoonfuls of xenophobic teachings found within their own religion.

This is a symptom of a far greater disease and one that will spread if you turn your back on it and will kill you from behind because it can and is taught to, is taught to children to kill and maim and destroy, it is the very words they grow by, it is an extension of their basic beliefs in their religious superiority and it will not stop, these fundamental radicals will not stop until they unite all under Allah, this is all they know, and it's terribly, terribly sad to watch a people struggle this way to find their own voice within a global community that does not view violence in the way they do.

This is a sad thing to witness for everyone involved, we are watching the death of an ancient culture, one rooted in antiquity and tyranny, but the culture itself is so valid and loved, it is the hate that must dissipate, but to many fundamental Muslims, hate is all they know when they look outside their own religion merely because their fundamental religious teachers fill them xenophobic hate, that is all they know. Allah help the youth of your faith grow in tolerance, teach them universal peace so they may find it also, or they will turn against you just as the crusaders turned against the Jews and the Protestants turned against the Catholics and the etc. turned against the etc. the nature of the world as taught by intelligence demands an eventual end to violence, no parent wants to see their child suffer or die, no parent of a cohesive and tolerance loving world would strap a bomb on a child and use them to murder innocent people.. ?

It didn't quite happen like that.

December 30, 2008: Gaza relief boat damaged in encounter with Israeli vessel - CNN.com

January 15, 2009: Gaza-bound ship abandons journey due to Israeli warnings

June 30, 2009: Six journalists detained after Israel boards Gaza boat - Press Gazette

I can't say that I blame them for being a bit sensitive to things that can be made to go boom..... can you? But here is some of what they do, do.

Israel does not want to kill anyone, they want to befriend them, they have no problem with the Palestinians, it is the hamas they want thrown out, they are doing everything they can to end the deaths of not only their own people but the people of gaza outside the tyrannical hamas and other terror affiliates. The Gazans, the Palestinians themselves should run the tyrannical hamas out of gaza, they could push out extreme fundamental religious zealots, couldn't they, if they are so willing and able, wouldn't you run a tyrannical regime, that butchers people and mails body parts, out of power, but they are willing (or forced) to allow the hamas to put IED's at their doorsteps, why do you think that is, would you allow a regime to put a bomb at your doorstep?

---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ----------

Dec. 09' - Two sides to that story, I don't know what to believe, except that no one died, Thank God.

January 09' - So they listened and turned back, as well they should considering that gaza is presently a closed military area...... you know, the whole bombing and terror thing right, the denial of Israel and the "death to the infidels" thing, the missiles and the mortars and the suicide bombings and things, right?

June 09' - Have you seen some of the videos where all they portray is pain and anguish supposedly always perpetrated by Israel, not by the hamas against it's own people to tyrannize them or to control them with fear and religion as a means to their own diabolical end.

Whatever happened to these journalist, especially the "non-biased" Al Jazeera, were they released or detained longer, did they finish and go on to gaza. I don't see any blockade of ships as inappropriate during this time of hamas controlled gaza, I just don't, the hamas (and all terror affliates) must be removed, their mentality of the total destruction of Israel is the crux of this embargo as well their xenophobic intolerance and their antiquated view on reality steeped in religious doctrines that are interpreted to teach and promote hate and death of all infidels is their own damnation. I believe Israel is doing what it must to protect itself and its people, what else are they supposed to do?

I should say, I don't necessarily like or agree with any of this, I wish none of this were happening, but it is. I will not, however, tolerant terrorism, or tyranny and I just don't see Israel as the conductors of despair in this land, I see the hamas, al qaeda, hezbollah, taliban (insurgents), et al. as the main destruction of peace and tolerance in a land hurting for a voice that does not scream "Death to the Infidels" at the same time they bow to mecca.....It is tiring the reality of hate that fills the hearts and minds of the extremist xenophobic zealots, and I do not believe that all Muslim feel the way the extremists do, I believe the average Muslim is being tyrannized over too, by their own people, and it is sad and very painful to hear and view these atrocities.

first off, i don't think israel is like a person. it doesn't "want to do" things. it is a nation-state like any other. it's well past time that people thought of it as a nation-state like any other. because there are rules for nation-states.

second, the idf's obviously false cover story is coming undone:

Israel releases Gaza flotilla activists ? live coverage | World news | guardian.co.uk


the center of this is the siege of gaza. it is a brutal and wholly reprehensible affair predicated on the collective punishment of an entire population for electing hamas 3 years ago. it has turned out to be a disastrous political choice that has since boxed in the israelis into this right-wing circularity the culmination of which was the massacre of last winter. it's obvious what the intent of the siege is: to prevent hamas from being able to deliver basic services to the population as a way of delegitimating the organization. it's obvious that the israelis were hoping somehow that fatah would benefit from this. neither has worked out at all. so since the massacre of a couple years ago, conditions have worsened.

personally if i was of any international political stature and thought it would do any good, i would be on one of these boats. i think anyone who sees this siege for what it is opposes it. i think most israelis oppose it.


from a rightwing viewpoint, what the idf/navy managed is an extraordinary blunder that made martyrs of 10 or so activists and has drawn levels of attention to the siege of gaza beyond the wildest hopes of the free gaza activists.

from my viewpoint it's exposed israel to a level of pressure not seen since they began their massacre in december 2007 of people in gaza to dismantle the siege.
and i think that's a fine thing.

I am still trying to have an open mind on this issue. Do we know the ship was trying to "run their blockade"? If they were what was their motivation?


Why would reasonable people with no guns, attack people with guns?

Israel's support from the US has been weakened. They have virtually no support in the ME. Iran is developing nuclear weapons. Hamas wants Israel destroyed. Iran wants Israel destroyed. Do you think they put the future of their country at risk to scare innocent relief workers by killing some of them indiscriminately?

Another way to phrase the question - Given the circumstances on the ship as things occurred is it possible that the soldiers reacted in a manner not consistent with standing orders from the chain of command? If that is true how should it be handled by the rest of the world?

Is it possible to get an objective investigation report from any source at this point, seems to me that no matter who or how it is done the response will include charges of bias?

Should weapons be allowed in? If not how should that be controlled? If yes, are we a step closer to WWIII?

No back peddle? You sure did try to feed us a line like 'oh thanks for making the connection dlish', when it's obvious to anyone what you were implying in your post, hell you're still implying it, of course with no actual facts to back it up, why is "activists” typed like that if you're not implying they're terrorists? Still no proof either, I guess we shouldn't hold our breath for that.

Please tell me how whatever Hamas did justifies what was done to a Turkish vessel. Also, please tell me how the rocket attacks and all that justify the banning of the import of notebooks, seeds, construction material, and so on.

jay, I really had not read that much into the idea of an actual linked terrorist on the ship because they used clubs, poles, chairs, and knives as opposed to guns, so no, I did not make that initial jump. I referred to them as “activist” because an activist, in my opinion, tries to change something for the betterment, as these people who immediately attacked the IDF were changing nothing except their own fate, they should be activist against the hamas, or at the least trying to convince the hamas to accept Israel and then the embargo would end. If I were a true activist who wanted to see my people freed I would take my problems to the hamas who will not acknowledge the rights of Israelis and who wish the demises of all Israelis, that is the axis to the ends of this embargo. But since you brought up the issue and are determined for me to reply, I shall, with a little, very little, looking, low and behold:
I wonder why they refuse to identify themselves, don’t you jay?

You know this brings up a whole new round of questions, like what, if any, did Turkey have to do in this, since they did say the ships had been searched and now they are saying they will possibly send their navy to protect any more flotillas, wow? They have been going through some command changes lately, I wonder if Turkey is becoming more sympathetic to the, well, just to….. interesting?

i don't see any logical connection between people acting to pressure israel to end the siege of gaza and others, maybe like yourself, who would bring pressure on hamas. it's like saying that people who opposed the war in iraq should have been for it. it's goofy.

there's myriad reasons to oppose the continuation of the siege of gaza. if you like israel in that rah team kinda way, the fact that it's a stupid policy extension the results of which are exactly the opposite of what was intended might be reason enough to think ending the siege a good idea, yes?

Sorry, you may not have meant it that way, but you're post sure implied it, and I'm not quite buying you hadn't made that connection before, your post just doesn't show it.

From your own article:
Could have, could, doesn't mean does have, means could have, which hasn't been proven, and it's from Israeli defense officials so take it with a grain of salt, but you seem to believe anything they say as gospel, so of course, they must be terrorists.

"Turkey's Islamic supremacist Prime Minister fulminates about Israel's acts of defense against the Hamas-linked Jihad Flotilla."

This is from Jihad Watch..... Back read for information about the hamas and their tyrannical regime and denial of Israel as a people or a nation-state of Israelis and Palestinians and Christians, et al. The involvement of Turkey and their apparent sympathetic tone for the hamas is frightening. I am beginning to wonder just how innocent these people on this ship really were and if this whole thing wasn't some conspiracy to attempt to force an end to the blockade in which allowing things like bulletproof jackets and night vision goggles and 50 unnamed cash ridden men into gaza, with possible terrorist links, with the full intent of more if they somehow get their way and the blockade does end, is just the minutest icing on the cake of what will enter into the hands of the hamas and it's terrorist affiliates, scary.

as for aid:

you cannot be serious about your characterization of the prime minister of turkey.
but if you're going to take your information from jihad watch, a program of the david horowitz information center, then i suppose facts are secondary to ideology a priori.

it's a shame though because these flights of paranoid fantasy are making anything like a coherent discussion impossible.

You could have stopped at "Robert Spencer," but whatever.

Idyllic,

My best friend is Turkish. His father is ex-special forces from the Turkish military. Turkey's constitution is secular, to the extreme. As a matter of fact, it has been written into their Constitution that if the government attempts to inject Islam into the running of the nation, the military will take over the country, retire the entire government and hold new elections (with completely new people). This has happened twice in his life, once the government was re-elected, the other time the government withdrew the proposed law and remained. In short, to call Turkey's PM an Islamic supremacist is simply false. If there was even an inkling of truth in that, he'd be thrown out on his ear by an entire tank division.

I recognize that you were quoting, but be suspicious of everything you read, not just the stuff you disagree with - especially when it comes to the middle east. Everyone writing about the middle east has an agenda.

I would like to see how people posting here answer:

Does Israel have a right to exist?

My answer is - yes.

My gut tells me that there is nothing Israel could do, nothing they could concede, nothing they could compromise would be good enough. I would love to see evidence or something that would contradict my gut feeling.

Does Israel have a right to exist? - Yes

Do the Palestinian people have the right to self-rule?

“flights of paranoid fantasy are making anything like a coherent discussion impossible”

What are you saying here rb, are you implying I am paranoid, what would I be paranoid for, are you implying I live in a fantasy world where my views alone are so far fetched as to be flighty? Is this what you consider a discussion, let alone coherent to imply these things of me? If my discussion is not coherent enough for you, then please don’t read my posts, I have a right to my opinions, slandering the Turkey PM was not one of them. I was interested in the quotes of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, you know, the things he was saying about this issue, and I found them, I tried CNN, but to no avail so reuters would have to do (via jihad watch as they had condensed to his quotes alone), I found it interesting the turn of Erdogan in not accepting any responsibility for this incident on HIS ships, by his people, but in no way did I slander him.

rb, you did notice it was put in quotes right, "like this" and repeated from the quote box, you did see that, right? Look the whole Turkey connection is coming about from the intense animosity the PM is displaying and his insistence on the U.S. solidarity bit but no acknowledgment of the possible terror links of some of the unnamed aggressive passengers and the reason for so much contraband which was supposed to have been checked before it left Turkey on that there Turkey boat to begin with.

I can quote from anywhere and not find full agreement with such and I think it is a bit trivial to take something I quote and apply it to me personally unless I say, YES, I AGREE WITH THIS..... or do you always agree with what you quote out? But for arguments sake let’s say I quote directly from Reuters:

I just don’t think that helped any, but if it helps you to NOT see me, or attempt to portray me, as some xenophobic, paranoid, delusional flights of fantasy girl, wait lets’ not forget Islamophobic, (thanks Baraka) then I hope you understand now. The only phobic I am is cryophobic, being the hot-blooded bitch I am. :)

Thank You, Cimarron29414, my intent is not to step on too many toes and yet still be able to dissect this issue from many perspectives. I apologize if I have offended anyone, that is definitely not what I am about. And I am still learning too. It was absolutely not my intention to label him an Islamic supremacist (nor did I), if I came across that way, however, then I am truly sorry, I don't know enough about the Turkey connection except what I am uncovering as I read along.

Sure.

Not as a theocracy, though. Theocratic rule has demonstrated that it's fundamentally undemocratic and seems to me to be antithetical to freedom and equality. And not without consequences for human rights violations. And not with financial aid from my country (we're in a pretty bad way with money at the moment). And within the borders they agreed to in the 1960s.

But sure, Israel can exist.

You do know BG was calling Robert Spencer an Islamophobe right? I mean that was pretty obvious just by reading is post.
So, you don't know enough about the Turkey connection, but you know you want their President to acknowledge 'possible terrorist links to some unnamed people on the ships', well for someone who doesn't know enough about it, you sure do seem convinced there were 'terrorists' on these ships, or are they back to being 'hate filled animals'.

I agree the Israelis have a right to exist.

I very much agree that the Palestinians have absolutely a right to self-rule.

I am not talking about the Palestinians, I am talking about the hooded terrorist affiliated hamas that tyrannize the Palestinians too. If the Palestinians, the Gazans, could exile the terror linked hamas, and I wish they could and would, I think this is what Israel wants also, as do I believe many of the Palestinians that are being demoralized at the hands of hamas and the additional terrorists who will be coming to assist the hamas in their chaos and disorder which is what the embargo is attempting to prevent, note the unnamed men with all the monies and the bulletproof vests and the night goggles and the knives and etc....

Ace - though I think the question is usually a red herring, my answer is yes, Israel has a right to exist.

But I have to disagree in the strongest terms with your gut feeling about the amenability of Palestinians to compromise.

Exhibit A is the excellent work of OneVoice, an Israeli/Palestinian/International organization that aims to dispel myths on both sides that the other side's population is 'not a partner for peace'.

OneVoice has conducted extensive grassroots work and hammered out a set of proposals (starting from the Clinton Parameters of 2000) that have 74% support among Palestinians and 78% support among Israelis. This is not just a simple "do you support a two-state solution?" poll, but a concrete set of ideas about what should happen with respect to Jerusalem, refugees, borders, etc. There are a lot of thorny issues, but the idea that there is no plausible middle ground acceptable to both populations is patently false.

OneVoice - Programs: Public Polling Results


Exhibit B is the current prime minister, Salam Fayyad.

Op-Ed Columnist - Fayyad's Road to Palestine - NYTimes.com

Unknown to most casual observers, there is a quiet revolution going on in the West Bank right now. GDP growth is in double-digits and there is a real chance - maybe the last chance - to transform the West Bank into a viable economic entity. But the life-shattering blockade of Gaza poses a long-term threat both to Israeli security and to the future of a Palestinian state - this aside from the sheer human cost.

Idyllic, you certain implied that you were sticking him with that label with the way you constructed your post. I'll admit that way you put together information often leaves me guessing as to what you really mean. If you'd like help figuring how to construct posts so that less is left to reader interpretation, I'm a PM away. As it stands, you're hurting whatever argument it is you're trying to make.

As for the topic, it seems to me that Israel had a legal blockade under international law and these cats ran it. Israel was within their rights to respond. That said, the use of deadly force was stupid.

And in the greater picture, the blockade is a crime against humanity.

idyllic...all i'll say is that i am wary about sourcing and try not to make uninformed choices in terms of what i choose to post as informational bits. david horowitz is a problematic source. robert spenser is a problematic source. self-evidentially false statements about well-known political figures are problems. they just are. they play into the rhetorical game you're running in this thread. and you're aware that you're doing it, so there's no need to rehearse its outlines.

the idf infotainment about "aggressive passengers" has been effectively discarded by the israeli military itself.

you can scroll through this if you like:

Israel releases Gaza flotilla activists ? as it happened | World news | guardian.co.uk

there was more here, but i think i'll leave it at this for the moment as others have posted in the meantime.


and to answer the question above:

israel exists.
palestine should rule itself.

post-67, the central obstacles to peace start with the israeli settlements which are a motor for israeli colonialism. that's why self-rule for palestine is such a problem.

there's more of course.

Idyllic,

No worries. Generally, Turkey is our friend. Some further insight into our strained relationship with Turkey. Turkey is a member of NATO and has the second largest military in NATO. The following is a Turkish perspective, I am just repeating it. I don't really know the Kurdish side of this issue, but I recognize that there is one: The Turks also have a "terrorism problem" in the Kurds. Much like the Palestinians, the Kurds want self-rule. Through the technique of geographic ethnic concentrations, they are attempting to carve out a piece of land in eastern Turkey, northern Iraq and Western Iran (there are some other countries up there which are included, Armenia and such) and create a nation called Kurdistan. Generally, this term is already being accepted by world media. When the concentration is high enough and the Kurds hold enough power in local governments, they will break away and form their own country, thus taking land away from those countries. The Turks know this and resist losing their territory. Saddam knew this and put unspeakable acts of violence against the Kurds (chem attacks).

If you recall, in the 2003 Iraq invasion, the US made nice with the Northern Alliance of Iraq (Kurds) in order to have those guys do a lot of the land battles in the north, taking the pressure off of our troops. We guaranteed them a degree of autonomous rule and control over the northern oil fields (thus giving them a huge bank roll for their future country.) This was an offense to Turkey, because the Kurds were doing suicide bombings into eastern Turkey much the way the Palestinians do in Tel Aviv. So, to Turkey, we were choosing their enemy over our NATO ally. This is why the Turkish parliament rejected our use of their land and air space to raid Iraq from the north. Consequently, if you recall, all of our ships in the Med and Black Seas had to drive all the way around, delaying the battle by weeks.

Now back to my opinion. This was the start of the degradation in relations between the US and Turkey. I believe it was a mistake by the Bush administration to disrespect their NATO ally and the only Muslim nation in NATO during that battle. One could never know the rationale behind this decision, obviously the Northern Alliance brought something compelling to the table. I personally believe that your treaty partners must always come before other deals.

So, what does all of this have to do with the thread?

1) Turkey is a NATO ally and we publicly humiliated them in 2003.
2) Turkey is a victim of terrorism from muslims and has empathy for us and Israel.
3) Turkey is/was a friend to Israel.
4) If we side with Israel on this, it is going to be considered further disrespect to the Turks.

I'm inclined to let Israel sort this one out on their own. I seriously doubt they called the WH before performing this operation, so they should face the consequences alone. They could defuse this situation with the least amount of mea culpa. The fact that they are not, is strategically a poor choice, in my opinion.

You mean like half of the Arab nations that are so entrenched in the Islamic faith, those kind of theocracies?

But I absolutely agree with you Willravel, NO nation, no peoples, should EVER be forced to suffer under autocracy and/or theocracy, and when combined they form the most anti-humane, self-indulgent form of tyranny know to mankind.

---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

O.K. let me just ask this so I can understand, why is the hamas not looked upon as the aggressor here, as the tyrannical dictatorship over the Palestinian people, why are we not seeing the forest through the trees, imo, what am I missing that I seem to be the only one that talks about the hamas' role in all of this?

It's Hamas, not 'the Hamas', sorry but every time I read 'the Hamas' I keep hearing it in a George Bush voice, or Dana Carvey not too sure which it is.

They're not seen as the aggressor here because they had nothing to do with the ship, show us one person with connection to Hamas who was on this ship, or even terrorist connections as you seem to keep implying. I mean you've already implied there were terrorists on board, yet you can't show any proof of this, so that's my answer as to why Hamas isn't the aggressor in this situation. Also as Dunedan says, they won free and fair elections, and the Israelis didn't like it, so they took their ball and went home.

Because they won a number of closely monitored elections after Fatah's corruption and thefts became too egregious for anyone to ignore, even by the standards of the Middle East. Some say these results are doubtful because of the Hamas/Fatah violence surrounding the elections, but the fact remains that Hamas won and, as far as anyone's been able to determine, did so legitimately. The Israeli blockade and bombardment of Gaza came about because the Palestinians, at the urging of the US and Israel, held an election which didn't go the way Israel wanted.

ZCommunications | Why Hamas Won by Kristen Ess | ZNet Article

From Wikipedia: Hamas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"In the Palestinian legislative election of 2006, Hamas gained the majority of seats in the first fair and democratic elections held in Palestine,[70] defeating the ruling Fatah party. Many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance"[71]"

"In May 2006, after the US and other governments imposed sanctions on the Palestinian territories for voting for Hamas, Hassan al-Safi, a senior Hamas official in the Gaza Strip, threatened a new intifada against those US-led international forces.[79]"

Thanks, I appreciate the information in your post. It gives me some hope, but I am concerned about the cavalier attitude regarding the question by some. When national and religious leaders say they want to wipe Israel off of the face of the earth - I take that seriously. I have a fundamental problem with that attitude regardless of who is involved.

Silent_Jay,

I believe she means in the overall picture, not just this event. Meaning, (and I am assuming here), "Why is Israel looked at as the oppressor of the Palestinian people and Hamas is not?"

Idyllic,

To answer that, and it's only my opinion, Hamas was elected by their people with full knowledge of what they wanted. So, any consequence directly associated with how Hamas is ruling the Palestinian people is by choice. Much the way anything our Presidents do is, to some extent, the will of the people. <- that's another debate. :)

I believe you're right Cimarron, I think that's what she meant as wel lafter re-reading it, have to put on my mind readers hat sometimes with some of these posts haha.

I put a small edit to my post, but you and Dunedan answered it, they won elections, and when they won people didn't like the results and we ended up here.

what the dunedan said above.

and like i keep saying, the israeli siege (that's what it is really) was begun out of a misguided attempt to prevent hamas from governing. the idea was based on nothing, really...it's not as though israel's attempts to pulverize the plo/fatah prevented it from operating. it's internal corruption was another matter---but under sharon, this approach had already been tried. and it failed. so why israel chose to respond this way to the gaza elections can only be chocked up to stupidity. stupidity backed by the bush administration because stupidity looped through the discourse of "terrorism"...

but not only has it reinforced support for hamas---it has also **prevented** the organization from moderating.

the counter-argument to the siege from the start was: if you want hamas to moderate, let them exercise power. the example of lebanon was clear.

bad policy, bad strategy, bad choices.
the israeli massacre in gaza simply made conditions worst. it did not break hamas. it had the opposite effect.

what i personally think has happened since is that the goldstone commission and other pressures---combined with the really unfortunate netanyahu government fell---have combined to make it difficult for israel to abandon the siege without losing face. so they've chosen to maintain it. which is at the root of all this business. not hamas. not really. a bad policy choice by the israelis that they are unlikely to be able to get away from until the right is bounced out of power again.

Here is some food for thought regarding Hamas, Palestinians, and the flotilla.

A success for non-violence in Gaza? - thestar.com

On a recent holiday, we befriended a couple who were children of Palestinian refugees. It was refreshing, in a way, to hear "their side of the story". The one thing that I got out of it was that Palestinians truly want a one-state solution. A common government where all people have a right to vote equally, Jew and Muslim alike.

Obviously, this would be troublesome for the Jews because it's a numbers game. They would never want "enough" Muslims present to take over the government. So, the two state solution is...better?...for the Jews.

The other major sticking point is the right of return. This doesn't just mean turning settlements back over to the former Palestinian inhabitants. This means that anyone with a deed from, say, 1920 for a parcel of land which is now inhabited by a Jew gets their land back. All refugees return to the land and are given citizenship, their land back, and a vote. Again, it's a numbers game and the Jews will lose that numbers game. Hence, they will never agree to the right of return.

Finally, there's the non-contiguous "nation" of Palestine. As long as the Palestinians have to travel through Israel to get to the other side of their country, there will always be strife in terms of commerse, security, and such.

I don't know how they will ever overcome these hurdles.

sadly, the only hate im seeing in this thread is coming from you idyllic. i dont see the so called islamic link that you speak of, and its been proven that you get you dont know the full extent of the issues here, nor do you realise what sources you rely on. i ask you one question that i ask regularly here, that you need to answer truthfully (to yourself at least)... how many muslims do you really know where you have sat down at spoken to as just normal human beings who want nothing but a good future for them and their kids? my gut feeling tells me none.

To be truly honest, ill tell you what i think about your arguments - your arguments twist and turn in many different directions and its hard keeping a straight conversation about the flotilla, israel and palestine without you throwing red herrings into the argument about alqaeda, hamas and hezbollah (btw i still am waiting for those sources. please feel free to pass them on at your own leisure).

p.s. and just in case, since you use the word arab and muslim synonymously, i thought id throw this one in for you. christian arabs make up a sizable percentage of the arab world.

lebanon has around 45-50% chriatian population
phaestine ahs around 600,000 chrsitians living in either camps or
jordan has around 10% christian population
im not sure about egypt, but they have a strong coptic chritian following as does iraq in the form of assyrians


You know idyllic, many moons ago, there was a member here by the name of Host who didnt know when to stop a futile argument... he's no longer with us unfortunately. Thats not a threat, but he irked a lot of people. people who even agreed with his arguments, but not his delivery. just thought id give you that piece of advice. pro bono.

jazz, the israelis didnt have a right to respond in international waters. all they needed to do was wait until they reached israeli waters and prove the threat. PR crisis averted. the fact that it happened in international waters makes the israelis no better than those somali pirates in the horn of africa.

When thinking of Israel and Palestine, it is important to stop thinking about states and nations as unitary actors. A lot of what is going on is less about what is good for this or that state, but what is good for this or that party.

Lately when I think about Israel, I just think Joe Pesci in either Goodfellas or Casino.

Yes. I, personally (meaning, this post and my previous posts are imho), believe that theocracies shouldn't exist. Governments should be secular and provide freedom of (and from) religion as a fundamental right. If people wish to worship someone or something, that should be their right, but the idea that an entire state is based on a faith and forces that faith (or even lack thereof) on people is a human rights violation by default.

A friend and I were once talking about nationalism and he brought up this interesting idea about the idea of national identity as it pertains to culture and/or religion. His point was that the problem for theocrats (or "ethnocenterists", as he called them) is that the territory encompassed by their theocracy is not the same as the territory where their religion is. Their religion is found outside of their country, and other religions are always going to be found inside of their country. When a country attempts to expunge any group—be they ethnic, religious, cultural, or otherwise—from their supposed haven, inevitably they'll only end up creating a disaster for human rights. Iran has run into this problem and Israel is battling with it right now. It's insane that Israel, which is kinda based on Western governments and culture, is also trying to go through an ethnic and religious cleansing. It makes me think if there were more Sarah Palins and Glenn Becks here, we might be doing the same thing.

Then I go have some tea and read a book.

More evidence of the evil Jew horde!

Israeli Terrorist Navy Addresses a Ship in the Flotilla and Offers it to Dock in the Ashdod Port



Peace Activists Prepare Rods, Slingshots, Broken Bottles and Metal Objects for an impromptu celebration of Kristallnacht.



Evil IDF Transfers Humanitarian Aid From Gaza Flotilla to Gaza Strip



Footage of peaceful Mavi Marmara Passengers Attacking the Kosher KKK



Yes, we clearly witness the righteous intent of the peace-loving non-terrorist IHH and Free-Gaza acting only in the best interest of peaceful Palestinians. They were right to refuse the deceitful offers of port access from both Egypt and Israel while expressing their explicit intent to cross the blockade. Brave peace activists, who by the way made time in advance to prepare wills and martyrdom videos, thought never to provoke the IDF.

Why won't the racist aggressor Jews just die?

Got to love outrageous statements with no back up, until I see proof of this I smell bullshit.
Why wouldn't they deliver it? They need to do something right in this fiasco, and now they're trying t odo damage control and get a cunt hair of good PR.

The only people I talked of with great negativity were the terrorist linked sects (specifically those who use religion as a foundation for their tyranny), somehow this got turned into me hating people, how is that. I voiced my opinions about what I was reading and learning and understanding about the issues and it was turned into me spewing hate, I don't hate anything except the suffering of innocent people. I asked questions, I read and listened, I tried to explain my views as best I could, and still, my words are interpreted incorrectly, if ignorance is what you wish to project upon an educated person who wants to learn and debate and is truly hungry for understanding then how do you expect anyone to learn anything when you condescend them to a point where you remove their voice and instill in them a fear of speaking their opinions with threats of banishment, how do you expect anyone to learn, how do you expect any conversation, any debate, any forum.:expressionless:

Read the words idyllic that dlish wrote:
I mean damn, see that's your main problem, you don't actually read what people type, you read what you think you see, or what you percieve to see in their posts.
Actually you called the people on this boat 'hate filled animals' and implied they were terrorists, even though you deny it, everyone can see it.
Yes you did voice your opinions, and others voiced their disagreement with those opinions, that is what happens during political discussions, but you also admitted you don't know enough about the 'Turkey connection', then continued on with the 'there were terrorists on the boat' all the while showing us no proof, even though it has been asked for repeatedly. This is a place where you have to back up your statements, say something outrageous, you'll be called on it.

I agree with dlish, the main issue with you is, your arguments twist and turn, you imply things, then say you weren't implying it and get upset when people read what your words say.

Idyllic, this is the form of playing the "victim" card that was discussed in another thread. You presented your opinion, which was inflamatory and bias'd from the start. People called you on your unsupported claims, and you are now crying victim.

No one is victimizing you, you just made a claim with no evidence and was called on it.

So what I think you are saying is that by trying to forcibly push hamas out it is in turn the creation of the problem and that if left to their own devises the people themselves would grow beyond the tyranny, I think I understand this and in such theory I would like to believe the reality of this. I don't know that I believe Israel is attempting an ethnic cleansing, however, if one considers hamas as an ethnic entity, then yes, I believe you could say they are, but I tend to see hamas (as well as other tyrannical regimes) more as a cancer and the risk of its growth being so disruptive as to destroy the body of Palestine (or wherever they thrive) and any citizens that get in its way.

IDF commander, "OY VEY! we better "t odo" and get a cunt hair of good PR !(WTF?)... so lets schlep or be schmucks!"

More peace activism brought to by IHH and Free-Gaza!
Al-Jazeera TV Report from "Freedom Flotilla" Before Its Departure for Gaza: Activists on Board Chant Intifada Songs and Praise Martyrdom



Perhaps leaving the herd once and a while and getting some fresh air will help with that odor problem!

I've yet to see anything that justifies boarding a ship in international waters and shooting at unarmed civilians.

That's of no concern to people like otto, he never lets proof get in the way of a good story
Yes they delivered the aid for good PR, it's not a hard concept to grasp, well for some it may be I suppose.
Nope, it seems to originate from some things here.