supersix2

Students Kicked Off Campus for Wearing American Flag Tees | NBC Bay Area
I can't believe how absurd this is. Since when is it incendiary to represent the American flag in America? I can understand having the kids remove their bandannas since back in my high school we weren't allowed to wear any hats or bandannas on our heads but to turn your shirt inside out? Really? I understand it was Cinco De Mayo, but that isn't even a holiday in this country. In reality, Mexican-Americans should be more insulted that people in this country use their national holiday as an excuse to drink and eat tacos.

If you are going to use the logic the school administrators took, they should throw Jewish kids out of school for wearing a Yarmulke on St. Patrick's Day or someone wearing a cross necklace during Ramadan or Passover. I can't believe how ridiculously some people react to the most inane things.

I'm willing to bet any Mexcian-American at that school didn't even think twice about seeing those kids wear that clothing yesterday.

Thoughts anyone?

Baraka_Guru

I'm not sure where I sit on this. I'm quite removed because I'm Canadian, but I am familiar with multicultural celebrations in Toronto, which happen all the time.

According to what I read in Wikipedia, though, Cinco de Mayo is celebrated more in the U.S. and is generally limited to one state in Mexico. So I suppose it means it's widely considered a Mexican pride day in the U.S. nationally. I wouldn't downplay it as "an excuse" to eat and drink. National pride includes food, drink, music, and dancing--all a part of enjoying your cultural practices of celebration. And it's often a wonderful thing.

I don't think it's the same thing. It would be more akin to some Mexican-American kids wearing Mexican flag T-shirts and Mexican flag bandannas on the Fourth of July, since it's often viewed as a day of American pride, or maybe Patriot Day or Flag Day to a much lesser extent.

I don't know the political/cultural/social environment down there with regard to Mexican-Americans and Caucasian Americans, but I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that such display of American flags (especially if out of the ordinary) could be insulting on such a day. But, like I said, I don't know what it's like. I'm interested to hear other thoughts.

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Rekna

The question is the motive. If the kids wore those flags just to offend others then they should have been sent home. If they wore it because that is what they do it often then they should not have.

What would happen if a bunch of white kids decided to wear a confederate flag on Martin Luther King day and no other days?

It sounds to me these kids did the equivalent of wearing a Vikings jersey into a Packers bar. Sure you can do it but you are looking for trouble if you do it. Now if these kids wear these types of clothes all the time then the administration was wrong. Again this all comes down to motive.

---------- Post added at 11:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

Also, here are a few more situations that I would see as unacceptable.

A bunch of students wearing a Star of David or a crescent moon on the day before/after Easter or Christmas. Once the students are doing it to make a political/religious statement in a potentially offensive way they have crossed the line. The administrators chose to remove a potentially offensive distraction for the day. The kids should be happy that they got the day off and their parents who likely put them up to this should get a life.

Orchrist

Yea someone e-mailed me this story at work(buncha tea party types) and my gut reaction is it's an incomplete meant to be inflammatory news story that doesn't contain the information a reader would need to know to make an informed assessment of the situation. On that note yea I'm guessing they were sent home because this sort of dressing up DOESN'T happen all the time, and the administration did what they thought was in the best interest to avoid any fights breaking out.

kutulu

The kids were trolling and they were handled accordingly.

rahl

I see it as a 1st amendment issue. People really need to chill out over non issue's. Especially schools.

When I was in highschool(private catholic school with uniforms) we would have dress down days every few months. I got sent home for wearing a co-ed naked baseball shirt. It had a picture of a runner sliding into home plate. The caption read "slide in head first" it was viewed as sexually inappropriate and I was sent home.

That school is one of the reasons I'm an athiest.

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Rekna

The supreme court has ruled multiple times that the freedom of speech is limited in schools. I believe this case falls within those limits and thus is not a first amendment issue.

Pearl Trade

Are the kids that wore the t-shirts Mexican? I don't think they did it as blatant disrespect. I wore shirts with U.S. flags and American pride stuff all the time when I went to school, and I was never told to take it off or anything like that. I don't see the big deal, IF they wore it the right way.

And Baraka, Cinco de Mayo is a big drinking day.

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inBOIL

I believe one of them is half Hispanic.

I think this is an accurate analogy if you're describing the wearing the Mexican flag in Mexico on July 4.
I just don't see how wearing the U.S. flag in the U.S. is ever inflammatory. To say that this is inappropriate is saying that you can't express patriotism in your own country on certain days.

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Rekna

It is only inflammatory if they did it because it was Cinco de Mayo. It all comes down to their intent.

Look at it this way, if I wore a Barack Obama shirt to a Sarah Palin event how do you think I would/should be treated?

supersix2

My point is, if left on it's own, I doubt there would have been an issue. It seems that the issue was created by the administrator stepping in. If there was an issue, worst case it would have been a fight between a few of the kids in school...big deal fights happen in school all the time.

Now, this school is in the national spot light. Guarantee there will be multiple school board meetings, school assemblies, reporters, and demonstrations. All because the administrator couldn't let kids be kids. Yea, maybe the kids wanted to try to start a stir up in the school, but in reality, all they are doing is displaying national pride while others displayed theirs.
To the comment about people displaying Mexican flag apparel on the 4th of July...personally I wouldn't care. If they are Mexcian-Americans, they are showing pride in their heritage during a national celebration. What is more American than that?

I had a similar type event in my high school. We had a new administrator suspend a few kids for wearing plain white t-shirts because they are typically sold as undershirts which he in interpreted as the kids showing their underwear thus violating the school dress policy. Meanwhile all they were doing was wearing plain white crew neck t-shirts. The whole situation got totally blown out of proportion. The local media covered it, there were emergency board meetings to deal with it, people felt the administrator was discriminating against lower class kids who wore plain shirts since they were inexpensive, kids left school and protested, and we finally ended the week with school assemblies to talk about the issue. A completely ridiculous situation that ended up being way more disruptive than a few kids "showing their underwear in public."

While this current situation is slightly different, because the original intent was most likely to be somewhat inflammatory, I honestly feel that the principle exasperated the issue by taking action rather than letting it play out.

Charlatan

They were clearly trolling and given that free speech can be limited in a school... the principal made a choice that was well within his rights to make.


I can totally see why tea baggers would cling to this sort of thing. On the surface it is easy to say, But this is AMERICA. The issue wasn't the shirts or the flag. The issue was the trolling.

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Baraka_Guru

...in a school with a large American population?

I would say that there are indeed times and situations when expressing patriotism is inappropriate. I could imagine how it could be inflammatory as well.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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dippin

Stories about crazy suspensions always comes from the parents of the kids involved, and generally they get distorted to boost ratings and because school administrators will generally avoid saying anything in order to avoid any legal mishaps.

The vast majority of these "crazy suspension" stories in the end turn out the have been warranted, with significant details missing from the original piece.

Derwood

Sure it was trolling, but had the principal just ignored it, no one would have heard about it. He made a mountain out of a mole hill.

The tangential issue, of course, is that "wearing" an American flag is considered disrespectful to the flag itself (something that even the mightiest of patriots and tea-partiers tend to ignore as they drape themselves in flag shirts, hats, bandannas, pants, capes, etc, etc, etc)

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Fotzlid

It wasn't that long ago that Cinco De Mayo was a non-event in this country till Corona started pushing it to sell more beer. The restaurants jumped on that bandwagon shortly after. It is nothing more than an excuse to get drunk.
The school administrator was out of line asking the kids to remove the t-shirts. The "Mexican-Americans" (in quotes because they are really Americans of Mexican descent. Something a lot of people are all too eager to overlook.) are just playing the typical race card/I feel disrespected because that is the currently accepted way for them to react to things they don't like. If they are truly Mexican, then they need to get over it. Its not their country.

Baraka_Guru

I know! Look at all these alcoholics....just sitting around and drinking too many Coronas. Even the children. For shame!


I don't think this gets the flag-wearing kids off the hook, especially if they went out of their way to incite the Mexican American kids who were into celebrating Cinco de Mayo. (And out of curiosity, do you also place African American in quotations? You know, for those who are really Americans of African descent? I think "American" by itself is too vague. It should be "United American" or something by default if you live in the United States. I, for example, am a North American as a Canadian. The United States of America has the difficulty of having a very boring and officious name that causes problems such as these.)

It's not simply playing the race card if these flag-wearers went out of their way to rub it in their faces. That would be disrespectful.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Xazy

If you sent home the kids wearing American flags, you then have to send home the children who were wearing the Mexican flags. If they felt it was a tense situation you have to be equally handed to both sides, otherwise you are censoring rather then removing a potential violent situation. Which is why it is in fact a first amendment violation.

Leto

Hard to believe that anybody could get drunk on a near beer....


as for the OP, the school campus was in the US. I see no issue, and the principal made it a bigger one than it deserved. My guess is he took issue with the boys showing some backbone rather than the original problem. It escalated from there.

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Cimarron29414

The news reported that it was five kids who collectively got together and did this, as well as congregating together. Hence, the impression would be bigger than just five random kids wearing their Old Navy shirts. It also started when three of them were asked to take their American flag bandanas off (Derwood's post is correct about inproper use of Old Glory), and they refused. THEN, they got sent to the principal's office. By then, it was a pissing match and the principal executed his authority against the disobedient little brats. That's my take on it, anyway.

BG, I refuse to use the term African American. My neighbors, who are black, and I have this conversation all the time. Fact is, I can't look at you and tell whether you are an African American, Haitian American, Jamaician American, etc. I run the risk of offending you buy not addressing your proper ancestry. Secondly, you are going to call me "white" and I'm fine with that. Thirdly, Dave Matthews is an African American - a white, African American. Fourth, if you were born here, you are American - any other label divides us. Fifth, I don't require you to call me a Baltic American, how would you know to call me that? My neighbors are absolutely fine with it.

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Baraka_Guru

I was referring mostly to those who self-identify in these terms. There are those who identify as being of Mexican or African heritage even though their family has been in the U.S. for generations. I was just wondering if Fotzlid would consider that a tenuous status or identifier in general. Personally, I see better value in identifying as White, Black, or Latino. But, then again, I have some problems with the concept of nationalism.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cimarron29414

No worries.

As for Cinco De Mayo, it is ABSOLUTELY nothing more than a drinking holiday in America, created and promoted by Jose and Corona. All the white Americans go to their local Mexican restaurants and drink margaritas. A majority of those celebrating still believe it is Mexican Independence Day. This day in the US is not revered by the masses as some glorious victory over French tyranny - it's just a dinner where you get to answer "salt" or "no salt" a lot. That's just a fact.

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"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

rahl

I don't know about the rest of the country, but in college(Akron U) "may day" as it was called was the biggest class skipping day because it was the biggest party day of the year. Side streets had to be shut down, surrounding police departments had to be brought in to handle the overflow. I had no idea it was "cinco de mayo" just an excuse to get wasted all day.

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Baraka_Guru

It would seem to me that some posting in this thread don't know the meaning of the words "absolutely" or "nothing more." Maybe it's just me.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

snowy

Well, for what it's worth, Cinco de Mayo is not just a drinking holiday in Oregon. Some white people may treat it as such, but there are legitimate celebrations, pride parades, and other cultural events that take place on that day too. I'm sorry that some of you seem to live in parts of the country where the cultural aspect has been lost, because it's really neat. I'd never really been familiar with Cinco de Mayo until I moved to Oregon in the mid-90s. People here really go all out for it. It's fun.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Taken as a whole I don't believe the school acted in a way to censor and violate these students rights, even though they most likely did. The kids were obviously trying to make a point by wearing the clothing, which probably wasn't a great idea (I can't recall the % of latino students).

But in the interest of stopping these children from stoking the current tensions over Arizona's action, I'm sure the school board has rallied more people toward the whole "USA!", anti-illegal immigration, Mexico sucks, American's are getting picked on side.

Oh, and the school district millions of dollars pending lawyer fee's and almost a guaranteed victory for the students in court.

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Leto

dammit, I was in Akron couple of weeks ago, missed the big day!

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

dippin

FYI, Cinco de Mayo is a much bigger event in the US than it is in Mexico.

Cimarron29414

I know what those words mean. I'm fine with using them in this case. I live in a state with a huge number of latinos. I sit with them and share shots at the Mexican restaurant every May 5th.

~shrug~ What's the big deal? Virtually every military victory since the dawn of history is celebrated the exact same way - eating, drinking, and merriment. Is May 5 somehow sacred and being defiled by gringos drinking Dos Equis?

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

RogueGypsy

It is never inflammatory to wear a symbol of your nation, within your nations borders. Any of our northern bothers been 'sent home' for wearing a Maple Leaf? I think not.

WTF is wrong with people? Our nation is a mixing pot of cultures, but is becoming a divided plate of shit due to these 'tolerance' and 'affirmative action' issues. Where in the fuck is their tolerance for this nation and it's citizens? They are citizens aren't they? If their National Pride is so strong, why live here? I get heritage and culture, it belongs and makes us all better for having it, but any 'National Pride' belongs in that nation, not a foreign land.

And yes, Cinco De Mayo is about swilling beer, Tequila and mad BBQ. Oh, and I've seen thousands of Mexican flag shirts on 4th of July. You can too, just go to So. Cal., pick a city, any city on the 4th and there they are.

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Fotzlid

Yes. If you are born here or are a naturalized citizen, you are an American of whatever heritage.

What RG said...

I find the idea of the kids having to remove the flag T-shirts disrespectful. Are their delicate sensabilities more important than my own because they are a minority?
Why can't it be more "Both sides...knock it off."?

Pearl Trade

Something similar happened at my school this week. I know all parties associated with this very well, I go to the school every day.

Breitbart.tv Mom Speaks: TX Student Suspended for Removing Mexican Flag

NewsRadio 740 - KTRH

http://kleincollins.kleinisd.net/

The only thing he did wrong was throwing it away, he should have taken it down and put it on the principal's desk, as he could not find a principal (which is hard to believe, because the stairwell that flag was posted on has an AP office next to it). I don't want to celebrate a Mexican holiday, nor do I want to see a Mexican flag inside an American public school. We were all given a typed note today explaining "KISD did not put the flag on a pole" and all kinds of propoganda trying to calm people down. No shit, they fucking put it up inside the school. It's all bull shit, and it's bad for you.

I didn't see the flag that he took down, but it looks to be 3'x5'. It faces the main entrance to the school and the Commons, where everyone hangs out before the morning bell rings to allow people to go to their first class. The clock says the picture was taken at 7:22, but the clocks are three minutes behind, so it was actually 7:25, 5 minutes before class starts. I assume he took it down immediately after the picture. I passed that spot later and it wasn't there. Also, the kid who took down the Mexican flag is a sophmore JROTC member. His family, about 5 people total, were out in front of the school this morning holding American flags. All of this paragraph probably doesn't matter too much, but I'll leave it just in case it helps someone with whatever argument they need.

And yes, one of the principal's name is Shelly Dick. What a name, huh? Cool guy who used to play college basketball. Talks with the students all the time. The best AP at my school, I'd say. But still, let my school know how fucked up it is to punish A TRUE PATRIOT, THIS IS AMERICA GODDAMNIT! Any questions about this story, if you need a first hand account, ask me.

__________________

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
Give me convenience or give me death!

Daniel_

It seems it was either normal behaviour for this cardre in which case it should have been ignored, or trolling in which case it should have been ignored.

If the kids in the Stars & Stripes got pounded by the kids celebrating the Mexicans throwing off the yoke of French oppression, then pick up the pieces later and hope they learned their lesson (including the pounders getting their punishment).

As an adult, you will see many things that you disagree with, and not be allowed to go running to authority to have them taken away. The student body should learn that there are dicks out there, and how to handle it. That's a more useful lesson than algebra.

__________________

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supersix2

Exactly my point. Well said. Kids do stuff to taunt other kids all the time, its just part of life. Most likely there would have been words exchanged between some kids, worst case a fight would break out. Big deal, as I said, fights break out in schools all the time. Everyone either get's their butt kicked in a fight, or gets suspended from school for fighting. Either way a lesson is learned.

Plan9

Yeah, the first part doesn't really mesh with the last sentence. School fights generally show might makes right, not vice versa... and suspensions too fail to address the root cause of the problem.

/idiot posting in Politics

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dc_dux

Without knowing all the details, its impossible to know if the Asst Principal made a justifiable decision or if it was an over-reaction and poor judgment.

We dont know anything about the five kids. We dont know if there wax long standing tensions in the school between Anglo and Hispanic students.

We do know that the school has a dress code that prohibits wearing bandannas....so at least three of the kids were in violation of the dress code.

Poor judgment? Maybe, but he certainly had more facts than anyone outside the school.

A violation of the students' rights.....hardly. Schools have the authority to impose dress codes (within limits) that may impinge on students' First Amendment right of expression to wear whatever the hell they want.

And the Asst Principal also has the authority to determine if "any clothing or decoration detracts from the learning environment"

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bparker805

I wonder if the school officials considered taking the flag down from out front of the school or out of every classroom? IMO this is absurd for someone to tell someone not to display their honor on their sleeve. Granted this can become a slippery slope as someone mentioned wearing a confederate flag on MLK day. But in this case, we are talking about the American Flag. A symbol of this country.

pan6467

This is because they are white kids, if I still gambled, I would wager 1 years pay that if it were the 4th of July and 5 "Mexican/American" kids wore Mexican flag bandannas and t-shirts not a word would be said or if it were every group out there would be bitching how the school violated the students rights and it was racist.

I don't care what you call me, that is the way this country has been going for the last 20 years with political correctness and "cultural sensitivity". The more this bullshit is played the more divided this nation becomes. If you don't like the USA and our flag LEAVE. NOWHERE else in this world, NO other country on this planet is going to have schools tell their kids to remove a tshirt with their national flag on it, why do we have to?


I am tired of people fucking bringing this country down and telling us we have to make concessions to everyone else while we lose rights. FUCK THAT SHIT. YOU DON'T LIKE THE COUNTRY LEAVE, I for one am tired of watching our rights get taken away because "we need to be sensitive".

When my German ancestors arrived they were called names and worked to assimilate into the USA culture. When my Irish ancestors came, they were called, Micks, told "no Irish need apply" and were discriminated against mercilessly. They didn't sit there and cry and talk about how unfair the country was, they assimilated and let that discrimination drive them.

I truly just do not understand why we must bow down to certain groups when they CAME to our country. I don't see Asians, Europeans, even Africans who come here cry discrimination and expect us to become bilingual and change to suit their needs. No those groups, the extreme majorities work hard to become US citizens and assimilate into the society they have CHOSEN to live in and tend to be far more successful than people born here.

Hmmm maybe crying discrimination allows you to live in squalor and off the government and have lawsuits ready... while coming and assimilating and working hard actually allows you to live the better life you sought to begin with.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

filtherton

Holy shit, Pan. Could you be more strident with your ignorance of latino immigrants?

pan6467

Why not? I don't have to bend over backwards to please Asians, Africans, Europeans that come to this country. I don't have to worry about them crying or expecting us to cater to their needs. The WORK fucking hard to become US citizens and make a better life for themselves. They do not expect us to change our language for them. They assimilate, just as my German and Irish ancestors did when they got here.

Most hispanics I have met do work hard, do try... but there is a vocal minority that want all they can get and we bend over backwards for them.

Again, the challenge stands, I'd like to see Mexicans wear the Mexican flag on a bandanna and tshirt to a public place (like a school) on the 4th of July and be told to take them off because they may incite a fight.

Part of treating people right is treating them as EQUALS... when you put them into special groups and kowtow to their needs and expect others to be "sensitive" to them while those same people don't give a damn about your sensitivities... it no longer is an EQUAL playing field, but you are putting that group above all else. THAT IS FAR MORE RACIST/ETHNICIST/IGNORANT/ SUPREMACIST THAN ANYTHING I COULD EVER SAY OR FEEL.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"