Students wearing t-shirts with an American Flag sent home - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 05-12-2010, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

A couple of things on this:

1) the language thing is useful, but not overly essential for new immigrants. It's their children you really want. Concentrate on assimilating them.
2) Culture. American culture (Canadian too) is an amalgam of different cultures. It will change (continually) with the influx of new cultures. There is no orthodoxy in this. There simply can't be. Get over it.
3) Laws. American is a nation of laws... not people. The people who come to America must (no exceptions) embrace this legal system. It is these laws that make America what it is, not whether you speak English or eat hot dogs, etc.
4) Common cause. Difference of culture is diversity. Diversity is a good thing. That said, it can divide if there is no effort towards a common cause. I would argue that point 3 is basis of that common cause. The building of a better America, is the goal. There are always going to be different ideas of what a better America will be, regardless of your cultural makeup. Always.

1) I agree with wholeheartedly. when I was a kid growing up we had a family who's mother was from Yugoslavia and the father was German. The parents spoke very little English but made sure their children were educated as best they could be. The 3 sons have grown up to be very successful business men and I believe that is because the parents instilled in them the opportunities that existed.

If you have a group that sits there and does nothing but talks about how discriminated they are and hold in contempt the very country they are in because they feel oppressed (even though they came here on their own free will), their children will carry those prejudices and anger and not succeed. This will lead to more resentment and more passion that they are being oppressed and held down.

2) American culture is an amalgamation of many parts and is continually being added to. However, hard work, the desire to make the nation better for the next generation and pride of what the US stands for (Freedom, Liberty, Justice) should NEVER change but be instilled into everyone so that those 100 years from now have better lives and opportunities than we have now.

If you have a group that puts their own values and national pride over this country's should go back to whence they came and remember why they came here. If for example you came from Zyxtopia and refuse to learn English, hold you flag higher and cry that you are oppressed and discriminated against... then you are not truly taking advantage of what this country offers. You are wanting this country to give to you all you want but have no desire to be a part of the work and beliefs it takes to grow the country.

3) America is a country of laws and freedoms... (granted freedoms seem to be considered "privileges now and seem to be taken away and legislated against more) and they should be upheld. This includes illegal immigration. We cannot, nor should we ever pick and choose what laws are important and which aren't. The greatest thing about this country is if you do not like the laws.... vote to change them or the people that will change them to your liking into office. Until then the law is the law... demonstrate, speak out against it, write protest letters, make your views known but until it is changed respect and adhere to it. That's how change comes.

4) I would argue the common cause for America is to keep freedom and liberty alive and to work to make it a better place for the next generation and the generation after. To teach your children what it is to be an American and how the freedoms and liberties are so important. Part of this country's problem is that those who have been here for generations have taken it for granted and not truly passed down how valuable and rare freedom truly is.

Rekna · 05-12-2010, 02:56 PM

Pan you still haven't said what you have personally done to bend over backwards for Mexicans that that you haven't done for others.

pan6467 · 05-12-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Pan you still haven't said what you have personally done to bend over backwards for Mexicans that that you haven't done for others.

How about the fact that illegals aliens have cost us BILLIONS in tax dollars, not to mention the high crime they have been bringing wiith them.

That becomes personal when my tax dollars are going there and not to schools, the infrastructure or to pay down the debt.

I hope that answers your question because that is what you got.

dippin · 05-12-2010, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

How about the fact that illegals aliens have cost us BILLIONS in tax dollars, not to mention the high crime they have been bringing wiith them.

That becomes personal when my tax dollars are going there and not to schools, the infrastructure or to pay down the debt.

I hope that answers your question because that is what you got.

Well, considering that the bulk of the costs of illegal immigration, where there are any, are shouldered by states, and considering how you live in a state that is in the bottom half of all states in terms of number of illegal immigrants, I'd say that you don't have much bending over to do.

Besides, how is this thread about illegal immigration? However many illegal immigrants there are in this country, they are still a minority of Hispanics, and as such can't be equated.

filtherton · 05-12-2010, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

How about the fact that illegals aliens have cost us BILLIONS in tax dollars, not to mention the high crime they have been bringing wiith them.

That becomes personal when my tax dollars are going there and not to schools, the infrastructure or to pay down the debt.

I hope that answers your question because that is what you got.

Do you have any conclusive data on the effect that illegal immigrants have on crime rates?

Illegals frequently also pay taxes, but receive fewer benefits.

They also frequently work for below minimum wage, which makes the stuff we buy cheaper.

For all you know, they provide a net positive to our economy and tax situation.

rahl · 05-12-2010, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

not to mention the high crime they have been bringing wiith them.

.

An interesting article that would disagree with you.

Center for Immigration Studies

pan6467 · 05-12-2010, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

Well, considering that the bulk of the costs of illegal immigration, where there are any, are shouldered by states, and considering how you live in a state that is in the bottom half of all states in terms of number of illegal immigrants, I'd say that you don't have much bending over to do.

Besides, how is this thread about illegal immigration? However many illegal immigrants there are in this country, they are still a minority of Hispanics, and as such can't be equated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

Do you have any conclusive data on the effect that illegal immigrants have on crime rates?

Illegals frequently also pay taxes, but receive fewer benefits.

They also frequently work for below minimum wage, which makes the stuff we buy cheaper.

For all you know, they provide a net positive to our economy and tax situation.

I answer the question that you seemed to want to hound me over...ignoring ALL else I said. Then berate me for having my opinion.... if you can't debate me and show me respect then don't be surprised if I don't answer your questions. I would tell you what I really wanted to say but.... welll better judgment got control of my emotions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

An interesting article that would disagree with you.

Center for Immigration Studies

You can bring out your links and I'll bring out mine and we'll argue over who is more "right" and no opinions will be changed.

Thus, I'm not getting into a pissing contest. I have my beliefs and until I see something I BELIEVE to tell me differently... it'll take more than your links or future degradation over my beliefs to change my mind. In fact if anything degradation just solidifies my opinion (rightfully or wrongfully even more).

YOU ARE NOT FUCKING SUPERIOR TO ME YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT THAT MUCH MORE EDUCATED OR BETTER VERSED THAN ME.... WE JUST SEE THINGS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND BELIEVE DIFFERENT SOURCES THAT TEAR DOWN THE OTHERS ARGUMENTS. TREATING ANYONE AS LESS THAN YOU DOES NOTHING BUT PISS THEM OFF.

AND YES I LOCKED MY CAPS BECAUSE I AM PISSED. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO POST "GEE I LOVE RANDOM CAPS" AND PLAY THEY ARE SUPERIOR BECAUSE THEY"HAVE MORE WHAT THE FUCK EVER THAN I DO" ... TO YOU I SAY I VALUE YOU OPINION AS MUCH AS I VALUE THE CHARMIN I USE TO WIPE MY ASS.

dippin · 05-12-2010, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I answer the question that you seemed to want to hound me over...ignoring ALL else I said. Then berate me for having my opinion.... if you can't debate me and show me respect then don't be surprised if I don't answer your questions. I would tell you what I really wanted to say but.... welll better judgment got control of my emotions.

You can bring out your links and I'll bring out mine and we'll argue over who is more "right" and no opinions will be changed.

Thus, I'm not getting into a pissing contest. I have my beliefs and until I see something I BELIEVE to tell me differently... it'll take more than your links or future degradation over my beliefs to change my mind. In fact if anything degradation just solidifies my opinion (rightfully or wrongfully even more).

YOU ARE NOT FUCKING SUPERIOR TO ME YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT THAT MUCH MORE EDUCATED OR BETTER VERSED THAN ME.... WE JUST SEE THINGS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND BELIEVE DIFFERENT SOURCES THAT TEAR DOWN THE OTHERS ARGUMENTS. TREATING ANYONE AS LESS THAN YOU DOES NOTHING BUT PISS THEM OFF.

AND YES I LOCKED MY CAPS BECAUSE I AM PISSED. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO POST "GEE I LOVE RANDOM CAPS" AND PLAY THEY ARE SUPERIOR BECAUSE THEY"HAVE MORE WHAT THE FUCK EVER THAN I DO" ... TO YOU I SAY I VALUE YOU OPINION AS MUCH AS I VALUE THE CHARMIN I USE TO WIPE MY ASS.

No one hounded you over anything.
You said

Quote:

"I don't have to bend over backwards to please Asians, Africans, Europeans that come to this country. I don't have to worry about them crying or expecting us to cater to their needs. The WORK fucking hard to become US citizens and make a better life for themselves. They do not expect us to change our language for them."

And people merely asked you to provide examples. Examples, by the way, in a topic where illegal immigration wasn't even mentioned.

And just like later you dismiss Rahl when he tries to engage in your non sequitur, let me remind you of something:

THIS ISN'T YOUR FUCKING BLOG.

You basically said that Hispanics "cry" and expect you to cater to their needs, while at the same time expecting you to learn their language.

You want to rant without having to discuss anything with people? MOVE IT TO YOUR FUCKING BLOG. Don't throw a temper tantrum when people expect you to provide some evidence for some pretty inflammatory rhetoric. There is a name for unsubstantiated attacks on an entire ethnicity.

pan6467 · 05-12-2010, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

No one hounded you over anything.
You said

And people merely asked you to provide examples. Examples, by the way, in a topic where illegal immigration wasn't even mentioned.

And just like later you dismiss Rahl when he tries to engage in your non sequitur, let me remind you of something:

THIS ISN'T YOUR FUCKING BLOG.

You basically said that Hispanics "cry" and expect you to cater to their needs, while at the same time expecting you to learn their language.

You want to rant without having to discuss anything with people? MOVE IT TO YOUR FUCKING BLOG. Don't throw a temper tantrum when people expect you to provide some evidence for some pretty inflammatory rhetoric. There is a name for unsubstantiated attacks on an entire ethnicity.

I'm not having a temper tantrum.... but when people FLAT ASSED ignore everything else I say and HOUND me over a question, I obviously thought did not need to be answered in this thread, then it became about illegal immigration .... then it becomes "how dows that have anything to do with this topic".

Play your f'n games with someone else.
I will stick to the topic... I don't answer your questions MOVE THE FUCK ON I obviously didn't want to... stop hounding me then crying because I "changed the topic".

Don't like me fine then don't comment on my posts. Tell a mod to ban me... whatever.... just do not expect me to play your fucking games.

Manic_Skafe · 05-13-2010, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

YOU ARE NOT FUCKING SUPERIOR TO ME YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT THAT MUCH MORE EDUCATED OR BETTER VERSED THAN ME.... WE JUST SEE THINGS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND BELIEVE DIFFERENT SOURCES THAT TEAR DOWN THE OTHERS ARGUMENTS. TREATING ANYONE AS LESS THAN YOU DOES NOTHING BUT PISS THEM OFF.

AND YES I LOCKED MY CAPS BECAUSE I AM PISSED. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO POST "GEE I LOVE RANDOM CAPS" AND PLAY THEY ARE SUPERIOR BECAUSE THEY"HAVE MORE WHAT THE FUCK EVER THAN I DO" ... TO YOU I SAY I VALUE YOU OPINION AS MUCH AS I VALUE THE CHARMIN I USE TO WIPE MY ASS.

Holy shit. So that's what it looks like when your head explodes via your keyboard.

Love ya, pan.

By the way, as it takes a troll to know a troll, those kids and their parents should be ashamed for letting it get this far. It's not a matter of national pride but teaching your children that it's alright to go around as tactless dicks that feign ignorance when called out for it.

True justice will be served when the children of our merry band of rebels grow to telecommute to their chinese jobs and consider themselves proud citizens de Estados Unidos.

dippin · 05-13-2010, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I'm not having a temper tantrum.... but when people FLAT ASSED ignore everything else I say and HOUND me over a question, I obviously thought did not need to be answered in this thread, then it became about illegal immigration .... then it becomes "how dows that have anything to do with this topic".

Play your f'n games with someone else.
I will stick to the topic... I don't answer your questions MOVE THE FUCK ON I obviously didn't want to... stop hounding me then crying because I "changed the topic".

Don't like me fine then don't comment on my posts. Tell a mod to ban me... whatever.... just do not expect me to play your fucking games.

Hounded? You were asked three times to substantiate a pretty ridiculous statement. It is not a game, but when you say ridiculous shit, expect to be called out on it.

pan6467 · 05-13-2010, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

Hounded? You were asked three times to substantiate a pretty ridiculous statement. It is not a game, but when you say ridiculous shit, expect to be called out on it.

Yes, hounded... I moved onto something different. IF I don't answer a question the assume wtf ever you want.

And by the way, you're hounding me about how I wasn't hounded and what does this have to do with the OP.

I'll end all of this now.

YOU'RE 100% RIGHT IN EVERYTHING YOU SAY. THE SKY IS PURPLE, OBAMA IS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT EVER, THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, 10+% UNEMPLOYMENT FOR THE REST OF THIS NATION'S LIFE IS MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE OBAMA SAYS IT IS, OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA... ILLEGAL ALIENS GOOD... SENDING KIDS HOME BECAUSE THEY WORE A US FLAG AND WERE PATRIOTIC DURING A MEXICAN HOLIDAY MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE HOW DARE THOSE KIDS BE SO INSENSITIVE, EVERYTHING ON GOD'S FUCKING GREEN PLANET IS GREAT BECAUSE FUCKING BARAK HUSSEIN OBAMA IS THE GREATEST LEADER SINCE JESUS... OHHHH BETTER NOT MENTION HIM.... SINCE MAN INSTITUTED GOVERNMENT.... THERE DID I COVER EVERY THREAD POST AND QUESTION YOU HAVE EVER ASKED ME???????? I DID FORGET..... IF YOU DISLIKE OBAMA YOU ARE RACIST. IF YOU DISLIKE ANYTHING THE SOCIALISTIC DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP PUTS INTO LAW FOR THE PRESIDENT TO SIGN YOU ARE NOT ONLY RACIST BUT A TRASHY, BACKWOODS, WHITE SUPREMACIST BIGOT AND THE REASON AMERICA IS FAILING... IT'S NOT THE DEFICIT, NOT UNEMPLOYMENT, A TAX BASE THAT HAS BEEN ERODED AWAY, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT, FUCKING NON OBAMA LOVING RACISTS.

Have a nice day.

---------- Post added at 04:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic_Skafe

Holy shit. So that's what it looks like when your head explodes via your keyboard.

Love ya, pan.

LOL.... yes, it is and it fucking felt good.

filtherton · 05-13-2010, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

YOU'RE 100% RIGHT IN EVERYTHING YOU SAY. THE SKY IS PURPLE, OBAMA IS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT EVER, THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, 10+% UNEMPLOYMENT FOR THE REST OF THIS NATION'S LIFE IS MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE OBAMA SAYS IT IS, OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA... ILLEGAL ALIENS GOOD... SENDING KIDS HOME BECAUSE THEY WORE A US FLAG AND WERE PATRIOTIC DURING A MEXICAN HOLIDAY MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE HOW DARE THOSE KIDS BE SO INSENSITIVE, EVERYTHING ON GOD'S FUCKING GREEN PLANET IS GREAT BECAUSE FUCKING BARAK HUSSEIN OBAMA IS THE GREATEST LEADER SINCE JESUS... OHHHH BETTER NOT MENTION HIM.... SINCE MAN INSTITUTED GOVERNMENT.... THERE DID I COVER EVERY THREAD POST AND QUESTION YOU HAVE EVER ASKED ME???????? I DID FORGET..... IF YOU DISLIKE OBAMA YOU ARE RACIST. IF YOU DISLIKE ANYTHING THE SOCIALISTIC DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP PUTS INTO LAW FOR THE PRESIDENT TO SIGN YOU ARE NOT ONLY RACIST BUT A TRASHY, BACKWOODS, WHITE SUPREMACIST BIGOT AND THE REASON AMERICA IS FAILING... IT'S NOT THE DEFICIT, NOT UNEMPLOYMENT, A TAX BASE THAT HAS BEEN ERODED AWAY, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT, FUCKING NON OBAMA LOVING RACISTS.

I think I found the problem. See, some of us seem to be trying to argue with you, while you seem to be arguing with caricatures of us.

If you are really serious about your bimonthly calls for political cooperation you'd stop for a second and consider where you fit in. Most of our current political problems can be traced back to people who let passion displace their intellect. If you want to make the world a better place, you'd make sure that you aren't part of this problem.

silent_jay · 05-13-2010, 03:38 AM

And another thread ends with pan playing the victim, where have I seen this movie before?

Christ pan, now you have to get, this is a forum, when you make statements people are going to ask you to back them up, plain and simple, you don't seem to get that part of a discussion forum, you seem to think people calling you on them is being 'hounded' or in my case that I'm 'personally attacking pan', which isn't the case. People here get called out every day when they type things, they don't throw hissy fits like a teenage girl who didn't get asked to prom, come on man, we're all adults here, grow up.

Derwood · 05-13-2010, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I have my beliefs and until I see something I BELIEVE to tell me differently... it'll take more than your links or future degradation over my beliefs to change my mind.

This quote is straight out of the aceventura playbook.

So you're saying that you believe what you believe, and any link or facts that dispute what you believe will be ignored?

Lasereth · 05-13-2010, 06:15 AM

In Chapter One of the U. S. Code states, "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery," and article 8j states, "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

Wearing the flag on clothing is already being disrespectful to the US Code. Found this today on Ebert's blog and thought I'd leave it here.

Cimarron29414 · 05-13-2010, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

In Chapter One of the U. S. Code states, "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery," and article 8j states, "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

Wearing the flag on clothing is already being disrespectful to the US Code. Found this today on Ebert's blog and thought I'd leave it here.

This means the actual flag should not be cut up and transformed into apparel. I don't believe that wearing an Old Navy shirt which displays the American Flag in its entirety is in violation of the U.S. flag code.

None of that has much to do with these kids' case. There's no doubt these kids were making a "not welcome" political statement and were attempting to generate a reaction. I'm still of the opinion that the school should have ignored them. They would have gone home with their tail between their legs, saddened by the fact that their little plan failed. Instead, it worked to perfect success.

Cynthetiq · 05-13-2010, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Hey! Don't call ME a dirty Commie!

By Roger Ebert

The impression is spreading that I have drawn an equation between the American flag and the hammer and the sickle. I'm currently serving for target practice on some right-wing websites, and a group of Tweeters are having jolly fun portraying me as an America hater and worse.

This is the result of one single Twitter of mine, and those who were eager to misunderstand it. Tweets are limited to 140 characters, and here is what I tweeted:

@ebertchicago Kids who wear American Flag t-shirts on 5 May should have to share a lunchroom table with those who wear a hammer and sickle on 4 July.

Now what do you suppose I meant by that? It was tweeted at the height of the discussion over five white California kids who wore matching t-shirts to school on Cinco de Mayo, and were sent home by their school. This inspired predictable outrage in the usual circles.

Tweeted from lonestarag05: Its the USA not Mexico. They are allowed to be proud of their country. I wonder sometimes why you even stay here.

Many others informed me that Americans have the right to be proud of our flag, and wear it on T-shirts. Of course they do. That isn't the question. It's not what my Tweet said. What I suggested, in its 108 letters, is that we could all use a little empathy. I wish I had worded it better.

Let's begin with a fact few Americans know: Celebrating Cinco de Mayo is an American custom. The first such celebration was held in California in 1863, and they have continued without interruption. In Mexico itself it is not observed, except in the state of Puebla--the site of Mexico's underdog victory over the French on May 5, 1862.

Cinco de Mayo's purpose is to celebrate Mexican-American culture in the United States. We are a nation of immigrants, and have many such observances, for example St. Patrick's Day parades, which began in Boston in 1737 and not in Ireland until 1931. Or Pulaski Day, officially established in Illinois in 1977, and not observed in Poland. The first Chinese New Year's parade was held in San Francisco in the 1860s, and such parades began only later in China. In Chicago this August we will have the 81st annual Bud Billiken Parade, one of the largest parades in America, celebrating the African-American heritage.

I invite you to perform four easy thought experiments:

1. You and four friends are in Boston and attend the St. Patrick's Day parade wearing matching Union Jack t-shirts, which of course you have every right to do.

2. You and your pals are in Chicago on Pulaski Day, and wear a t-shirt with a photograph of Joseph Stalin, which is your right.

3. In San Francisco's Chinatown for the parade, your crowd wears t-shirts saying "My granddad was at the Rape of Nanking and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

4. In Chicago for the Bud Billiken Parade, you and your crowd, back in shape after three hospitalizations, turn up with matching t-shirts sporting the Confederate flag.

The question is obviously not whether Americans, or anyone else, has the right to wear our flag on their t-shirts. But empathetic people realize much depends on context. If, on Cinco de Mayo, you turn up at your school with a large Mexican-American student population wearing such shirts, are you (1) joining in the spirit of the holiday, or (2) looking for trouble?

I suggest you intend to insult your fellow students. Not because they do not respect THEIR flag, but because you do not respect their heritage. That there are five of you in matching shirts demonstrates you want to be deliberately provocative.

Therefore, you and your buddies should try wearing the hammer and sickle on the Fourth of July. You could try it at a NASCAR race, for example.

First a money guy going into the kitchen and now a movie guy commenting on socio-political statements.

I was watching TV and the talking heads were debating this the other day.

Personally, I think that people should wear what they want and they should bear the fruits of that freedom. If that means they get the shit kicked out of them because of pissed off people, well that's the risk they took.

Baraka_Guru · 05-13-2010, 06:25 AM

Hm, against code...and not to mention rather corny.

I should probably add that I'm suspicious about the motives of the kids in the U.S. flag gear. Given the size of the Mexican-American population in the school, they probably knew damn well it was Cinco de Mayo, as I'm sure there was a bit of a lead-up and anticipation of the observance at the school.

That said, I don't see this kind of action---if it was indeed intentional---as patriotic. I see it as jingoistic, which in itself is disgraceful to the flag.

Cimarron29414 · 05-13-2010, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

That said, I don't see this kind of action---if it was indeed intentional---as patriotic. I see it as jingoistic, which in itself is disgraceful to the flag.

I don't think anyone believes they were wearing those shirts on that day, in that way, to show patriotism. So, yes, it was disgraceful to the flag.

dippin · 05-13-2010, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Yes, hounded... I moved onto something different. IF I don't answer a question the assume wtf ever you want.

And by the way, you're hounding me about how I wasn't hounded and what does this have to do with the OP.

I'll end all of this now.

YOU'RE 100% RIGHT IN EVERYTHING YOU SAY. THE SKY IS PURPLE, OBAMA IS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT EVER, THERE IS NO PROBLEM WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, 10+% UNEMPLOYMENT FOR THE REST OF THIS NATION'S LIFE IS MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE BECAUSE OBAMA SAYS IT IS, OBAMA OBAMA OBAMA... ILLEGAL ALIENS GOOD... SENDING KIDS HOME BECAUSE THEY WORE A US FLAG AND WERE PATRIOTIC DURING A MEXICAN HOLIDAY MORE THAN ACCEPTABLE HOW DARE THOSE KIDS BE SO INSENSITIVE, EVERYTHING ON GOD'S FUCKING GREEN PLANET IS GREAT BECAUSE FUCKING BARAK HUSSEIN OBAMA IS THE GREATEST LEADER SINCE JESUS... OHHHH BETTER NOT MENTION HIM.... SINCE MAN INSTITUTED GOVERNMENT.... THERE DID I COVER EVERY THREAD POST AND QUESTION YOU HAVE EVER ASKED ME???????? I DID FORGET..... IF YOU DISLIKE OBAMA YOU ARE RACIST. IF YOU DISLIKE ANYTHING THE SOCIALISTIC DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP PUTS INTO LAW FOR THE PRESIDENT TO SIGN YOU ARE NOT ONLY RACIST BUT A TRASHY, BACKWOODS, WHITE SUPREMACIST BIGOT AND THE REASON AMERICA IS FAILING... IT'S NOT THE DEFICIT, NOT UNEMPLOYMENT, A TAX BASE THAT HAS BEEN ERODED AWAY, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT, FUCKING NON OBAMA LOVING RACISTS.

Have a nice day.

---------- Post added at 04:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:16 AM ----------

LOL.... yes, it is and it fucking felt good.

Well, if you make outrageous statements about an ethnic group that you can't in any way back up, that is actually part of the definition of racist.

And what the fuck does Obama have to do with anything?

kutulu · 05-13-2010, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Personally, I think that people should wear what they want and they should bear the fruits of that freedom. If that means they get the shit kicked out of them because of pissed off people, well that's the risk they took.

Yes but here in the real world this happened at a school where the school is responsible for the health and safety of the students. It has been demonstrated time and time again that kids don't have rights at schools, we search them whenever we want and they have to follow strict dress codes.

The kids were trolling. No matter what people say, that is a fact.

Shadowex3 · 05-13-2010, 01:31 PM

I hope you used that wording specifically because while it is demonstrated time and time again that kids may as well be chattel slaves for the way most schools treat them the SCotUS has also decided time and time again that Students' rights "do not end at the schoolhouse door" and even that the dress code can't infringe on their freedom of speech if a political message includes something against the dress code as an inherent part of the message.

Wes Mantooth · 05-13-2010, 01:32 PM

Just a few thoughts because I'm killing a little time:

I can see the point of view of the students to some extent here, I understand that this is a celebration for Mexican-Americans but at the same time being Americans themselves should the American flag really be offensive or seen as incendiary? Isn't it their flag too? I can see having pride in ones heritage and I would support anyone's right to proudly do so, however I would ask why celebrating ones Mexican heritage has to mean that somehow the US flag becomes offensive? Just a question I'm mulling over in my own mind I suppose.

This story (to me) would make more sense if they were wearing shirts with anti Mexican slogans or blatantly going out of their way to be offensive towards Hispanics but were they really doing either by wearing an American flag? Is this really the same as say wearing a confederate flag t-shirt to an African American rally or showing up to a gay pride parade decked out with offensive anti gay slogans? That line doesn't seem like it was crossed here weather or not the students were trolling or just wearing what they always wear.

So I guess I can see how being called out for wearing an American flag could be a little off putting to those on the outside looking in (as in "why would that be offensive? I don't get it"). However as I stated before there is probably more to this story then is being reported and as usual the truth of the whole matter lies somewhere in the middle. I dunno, again just a few thoughts I figured I'd throw out there for some discussion as its kind of an intersting topic about where the line should be on what should and shouldn't be considered offensive.

rahl · 05-13-2010, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

You can bring out your links and I'll bring out mine and we'll argue over who is more "right" and no opinions will be changed.

Thus, I'm not getting into a pissing contest. I have my beliefs and until I see something I BELIEVE to tell me differently... it'll take more than your links or future degradation over my beliefs to change my mind. In fact if anything degradation just solidifies my opinion (rightfully or wrongfully even more).

YOU ARE NOT FUCKING SUPERIOR TO ME YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT THAT MUCH MORE EDUCATED OR BETTER VERSED THAN ME.... WE JUST SEE THINGS IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND BELIEVE DIFFERENT SOURCES THAT TEAR DOWN THE OTHERS ARGUMENTS. TREATING ANYONE AS LESS THAN YOU DOES NOTHING BUT PISS THEM OFF.

AND YES I LOCKED MY CAPS BECAUSE I AM PISSED. IF SOMEONE WANTS TO POST "GEE I LOVE RANDOM CAPS" AND PLAY THEY ARE SUPERIOR BECAUSE THEY"HAVE MORE WHAT THE FUCK EVER THAN I DO" ... TO YOU I SAY I VALUE YOU OPINION AS MUCH AS I VALUE THE CHARMIN I USE TO WIPE MY ASS.

Well, at no point did I act like I'm superior. You made a statement, I posted a link with FBI and INS stats that directly contradict your assertions. That is what happens when you make outrageous statements without knowing what the hell your talking about.

pan6467 · 05-13-2010, 09:46 PM

Fine here are my links and now tell me why yours are better and blah blah blah....

Impacts Of Illegal Immigration: Crime

Just a sampling from the above link:

Quote:

As noted in a September 2006 article, Cop murder spotlights crisis of killer aliens, in WND

"While no government agencies specifically track crimes by illegal aliens, there have been some efforts to quantify the loss. Last December, Mac Johnson set out to investigate the number of homicides perpetrated by illegal aliens. Since the federal government would not provide any useful information, he contacted all 50 statehouses. Three months later, he had fewer than a dozen responses. Only one state, Vermont, provided any useful information.
He then set out to statistically estimate the number of murders by illegal aliens based on available crime data and conservative estimates of the actual number of illegal aliens in the country – which, of course, nobody really knows.

He found that between 1,806 and 2,510 people in the U.S. are murdered annually by illegal aliens. If he's right, that would represent between 11 percent and 15 percent of all murders in the U.S.":

Using the mean of Mr. Johnson's range, that means there are 2,158 murders committed annually by illegal aliens – crimes that never would have happened if they weren't here. This is part of the collateral damage of tolerating illegal immigration.

CRIME VICTIMS OF ILLEGAL ALIENS

Immigrations Human Cost

Immigration and Crime: Assessing a Conflicted Issue | Center for Immigration Studies

Shall this person you say making absurd claims continue?

How about a bankrupt medical system in the southwest?

Quote:

Hard-working Americans, many of whom are our uninsured working poor, are paying billions in taxes for illegal immigrants' medical care. Thanks to the federal government's lax border enforcement, more than 12 million illegal aliens residing in the United States are bankrupting our hospitals.

Illegal immigrants are bankrupting our hospitals - Examiner.com

Illegal Immigration Costs California $10.5 Billion Annually

Quote:

In hosting America's largest population of illegal immigrants, California bears a huge cost to provide basic human services for this fast growing, low-income segment of its population. A new study from the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) examines the costs of education, health care and incarceration of illegal aliens, and concludes that the costs to Californians is $10.5 billion per year.

Shall I continue????

dippin · 05-13-2010, 09:59 PM

Isn't there a thread about illegal immigration already? Why is it that a story that mentions Hispanic students, but not their legal status, is now about the costs of illegal immigration?

pan6467 · 05-14-2010, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

Isn't there a thread about illegal immigration already? Why is it that a story that mentions Hispanic students, but not their legal status, is now about the costs of illegal immigration?

Let me get this straight.... you hound me over a question I refuse to answer.... when I do you berate me saying outrageous false claims with no proof (and that I went off the OP ANSWERING the hounders questions).... then I blow up because my answer wasn't fucking good enough for you.... then you tell me that is what happens when "you make unsubstaniated outrageous claims"..... then I bring links in to show MY proof... and now I'm berated for changing the subject again..... lol

No wonder this place is dying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

Well, if you make outrageous statements about an ethnic group that you can't in any way back up, that is actually part of the definition of racist.

And what the fuck does Obama have to do with anything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

Well, at no point did I act like I'm superior. You made a statement, I posted a link with FBI and INS stats that directly contradict your assertions. That is what happens when you make outrageous statements without knowing what the hell your talking about.

ah but I do.... then I get chastised because there is a different thread covering that which you hounded me to answer in this thread.

roachboy · 05-14-2010, 04:47 AM

pan---it's pretty obvious what's happening here (again)...and it's not a matter of your viewpoints per se.

it's a matter of there being informal standards for what constitutes a discussion, which dovetails with what amounts to a collective understanding of what a statement is that someone advances, what you can say about it and what is expected.

you seem to have a separate understanding of what a viewpoint is, like it's just some statement that you can fashion that reflects something of how you see things at that moment and isn't necessarily amenable to either evidence or argument. you just think it at that moment. which is fine in reality, but it's a strange position to take in a politics forum on a messageboard in which the only mode of interacting there is between us is discussion or debate.

but you know this. you've been around here for a long time. so why do you act as though you don't understand what the community does in the politics forum and instead get all offended if you get called out on positions you adopt?

if you didn't want the debate, you wouldn't write them here.
if you just wanted to say what you think you can do that anywhere.
so why act as though discussion/disagreement is a Problem in a forum that's about discussion/disagreement?

i dont get it.

dippin · 05-14-2010, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Let me get this straight.... you hound me over a question I refuse to answer.... when I do you berate me saying outrageous false claims with no proof (and that I went off the OP ANSWERING the hounders questions).... then I blow up because my answer wasn't fucking good enough for you.... then you tell me that is what happens when "you make unsubstaniated outrageous claims"..... then I bring links in to show MY proof... and now I'm berated for changing the subject again..... lol

No wonder this place is dying.

ah but I do.... then I get chastised because there is a different thread covering that which you hounded me to answer in this thread.

First of all, how sensitive must you be that three posts asking you something is "hounding."
In any case, this story is about white kids wearing the American flag and Hispanic kids taking offense. At no point during the story or the discussion was it disclosed that the Hispanic kids who took offense were here illegally. In fact, even if some were here illegally, I guarantee that the majority of Hispanic kids in that high school are legal citizens.
So in a story about Hispanic kids taking offense to the American flag, you somehow take that as an issue related to illegal immigration. That by itself shows an extraordinary amount of ignorance. And then you post a bunch of stuff that actually have nothing to do with your claim. Whatever the costs of illegal immigration in Arizona, Texas, and so on, you've yet to show how you personally have been expected to learn Spanish, or what the costs of illegal immigration are to you, living in Canton, Ohio.

So, again, you've replied to this thread by assuming that all Hispanics are here as the result of illegal immigration, and by pointing out alleged costs of that illegal immigration that don't really affect you in Ohio. In the end, this tells me a lot more about how you view Hispanics than about what you've really had to do to accommodate them.

pan6467 · 05-14-2010, 11:22 AM

First this was the question I finally answered:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Pan you still haven't said what you have personally done to bend over backwards for Mexicans that that you haven't done for others.

What that question has to do with the t-shirts is beyond me... I had re focused when this question was put forth... Thus hounding. And trying to set me up for what is in this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

First of all, how sensitive must you be that three posts asking you something is "hounding."
In any case, this story is about white kids wearing the American flag and Hispanic kids taking offense. At no point during the story or the discussion was it disclosed that the Hispanic kids who took offense were here illegally. In fact, even if some were here illegally, I guarantee that the majority of Hispanic kids in that high school are legal citizens.
So in a story about Hispanic kids taking offense to the American flag, you somehow take that as an issue related to illegal immigration. That by itself shows an extraordinary amount of ignorance. And then you post a bunch of stuff that actually have nothing to do with your claim. Whatever the costs of illegal immigration in Arizona, Texas, and so on, you've yet to show how you personally have been expected to learn Spanish, or what the costs of illegal immigration are to you, living in Canton, Ohio.

So, again, you've replied to this thread by assuming that all Hispanics are here as the result of illegal immigration, and by pointing out alleged costs of that illegal immigration that don't really affect you in Ohio. In the end, this tells me a lot more about how you view Hispanics than about what you've really had to do to accommodate them.

you basically want to say that none of my federal tax dollars that could go to education, rebuilding the infrastructure and so on, nor the benefits of that money spent on illegal aliens affects me. Which is utter and total bullshit.

Then you very thinly veil outright calling me prejudice against ALL Hispanics.

1st: I did in no way insinuate that the school kids and community attending and living in that district had ANY illegal immigration ties. But you jumped in and pretended I did.

2nd: You have NO idea of who I am personally but will thinly veil that I am prejudiced against all Hispanics. I'm not I have great friends from my days in Phoenix when I and several Hispanics of Mexican heritage but US citizens worked on recovery from our addictions. I dated a couple Latina females while there. the only prejudice I have is against ILLEGAL immigrants regardless of heritage or ethnicity.To thinly veil your saying I am prejudiced against the WHOLE is very wrong and I would like an apology. I know it won't come because you see nothing wrong in what you did.

Again, you hounded me AFTER I had rejected answering the question... you decided it was far more important that I answer that question than anything else I had written (that was on topic, oh by the way)... tells me you could not truly argue my points there and thus you would try to play a game...

The unfortunate thing for you is I have exposed your game and while you will sit there and say "there was no game... blah blah blah"... I think I have exposed it very well and in a way that the casual observers here would see it also. So all you left leaning trollistic asses who want to run the board so that you can all agree with each other and show off your pseudo-intellect can use this to just pat each other on the back and not truly debate ANYTHING.

Only problem is you were caught and now will come even more attacks .... but this is it, I am done commenting here so attack all you want. I exposed you for what you are. You don't want debate you want games you think you can win... unfortunately you were exposed and lost this round.

(I shouldn't have to add this but I will.... anyone who has gone into a longer term addiction treatment, knows how close you become to those there. They became like brothers to me. If I were prejudiced I would have been like some who refused to get close to them. I got close to everyone that I believed wanted recovery and it was 2 Mexican heritaged Americans that helped me more than just about anyone else, save my best friend there.)

Derwood · 05-14-2010, 11:31 AM

i think the dishonesty is in personally taking credit for billions of federal tax dollars. My guess is that less than $20 of the money YOU contribute to the federal kitty is going to the benefit of illegals. The whole "billions of dollars of MY TAX MONEY" thing is a red herring and intellectually dishonest, especially when the question posed to you was "how does it affect you personally"

Lasereth · 05-14-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

The unfortunate thing for you is I have exposed your game and while you will sit there and say "there was no game... blah blah blah"... I think I have exposed it very well and in a way that the casual observers here would see it also. So all you left leaning trollistic asses who want to run the board so that you can all agree with each other and show off your pseudo-intellect can use this to just pat each other on the back and not truly debate ANYTHING.

Translation: I came into this thread spewing bullshit I heard at a family reunion and when asked to prove my claims I get mad because I can't.

It's funny that you shout about "not truly debating anything" when you want us to believe your claims with no evidence just because you believe it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Thus, I'm not getting into a pissing contest. I have my beliefs and until I see something I BELIEVE to tell me differently... it'll take more than your links or future degradation over my beliefs to change my mind. In fact if anything degradation just solidifies my opinion (rightfully or wrongfully even more).

Why does it take more than facts to make you believe? What more could you want? You enjoy your view on the matter so you don't want to be proven wrong. Holding your pinkies in your ears shouting lalalalala much?

You came in this discussion with the 'MERICA RULEZ mindset when in reality these kids were being dickheads and deserved what they got. You WANTED to twist this into a "what is America coming to" argument, so you did. Nevermind the kids violating the dress code and purposely trying to disrespect kids at their school. If it involves patriotism, ANYTHING GOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I typically disagree with most of the "left leaning trollistic asses" on here and am neither demo or repub so don't even start.

silent_jay · 05-14-2010, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

The unfortunate thing for you is I have exposed your game and while you will sit there and say "there was no game... blah blah blah"... I think I have exposed it very well and in a way that the casual observers here would see it also. So all you left leaning trollistic asses who want to run the board so that you can all agree with each other and show off your pseudo-intellect can use this to just pat each other on the back and not truly debate ANYTHING.

Well, it's hard to truly debate ANYTHING with someone who the second you disagree with them cries 'personal attack', or 'berating me', or 'hounding me', which is basically what you do, anytime, in any thread here someone disagrees with you, you scream 'attacking me again', trust me, I've been accused of it many, many time here, yet it's cool for you to call them 'trollistic asses', when all they did was call you on something you posted and asked for proof, as was mentioned before, this isn't a blog, you type something, you're going to have to back it up, seems like common sense to me.

As for the OP, the kids knew what they were doing and jus ttrying to stir up shit, and it worked.

dippin · 05-14-2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

First this was the question I finally answered:

What that question has to do with the t-shirts is beyond me... I had re focused when this question was put forth... Thus hounding. And trying to set me up for what is in this:

you basically want to say that none of my federal tax dollars that could go to education, rebuilding the infrastructure and so on, nor the benefits of that money spent on illegal aliens affects me. Which is utter and total bullshit.

Then you very thinly veil outright calling me prejudice against ALL Hispanics.

1st: I did in no way insinuate that the school kids and community attending and living in that district had ANY illegal immigration ties. But you jumped in and pretended I did.

2nd: You have NO idea of who I am personally but will thinly veil that I am prejudiced against all Hispanics. I'm not I have great friends from my days in Phoenix when I and several Hispanics of Mexican heritage but US citizens worked on recovery from our addictions. I dated a couple Latina females while there. the only prejudice I have is against ILLEGAL immigrants regardless of heritage or ethnicity.To thinly veil your saying I am prejudiced against the WHOLE is very wrong and I would like an apology. I know it won't come because you see nothing wrong in what you did.

Again, you hounded me AFTER I had rejected answering the question... you decided it was far more important that I answer that question than anything else I had written (that was on topic, oh by the way)... tells me you could not truly argue my points there and thus you would try to play a game...

The unfortunate thing for you is I have exposed your game and while you will sit there and say "there was no game... blah blah blah"... I think I have exposed it very well and in a way that the casual observers here would see it also. So all you left leaning trollistic asses who want to run the board so that you can all agree with each other and show off your pseudo-intellect can use this to just pat each other on the back and not truly debate ANYTHING.

Only problem is you were caught and now will come even more attacks .... but this is it, I am done commenting here so attack all you want. I exposed you for what you are. You don't want debate you want games you think you can win... unfortunately you were exposed and lost this round.

(I shouldn't have to add this but I will.... anyone who has gone into a longer term addiction treatment, knows how close you become to those there. They became like brothers to me. If I were prejudiced I would have been like some who refused to get close to them. I got close to everyone that I believed wanted recovery and it was 2 Mexican heritaged Americans that helped me more than just about anyone else, save my best friend there.)

There was no attack, and there is no game. This is a thread about white students wearing American flags, and Hispanic students taking offense to them. To which you replied:

Quote:

Why not? I don't have to bend over backwards to please Asians, Africans, Europeans that come to this country. I don't have to worry about them crying or expecting us to cater to their needs. The WORK fucking hard to become US citizens and make a better life for themselves. They do not expect us to change our language for them. They assimilate, just as my German and Irish ancestors did when they got here.

Given that, and given the topic of the thread, I think it is only fair to ask when you were ever expected to be bilingual, or when you ever had to bend over backwards for them.

Your only reply so far was to point to the costs of illegal immigration, which happen mostly at the state level. So, considering this thread was not about illegal immigration, and considering you don't live in a state where there is a significant illegal population, what are we to conclude?

pan6467 · 05-14-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

Translation: I came into this thread spewing bullshit I heard at a family reunion and when asked to prove my claims I get mad because I can't.

It's funny that you shout about "not truly debating anything" when you want us to believe your claims with no evidence just because you believe it.

Funny, I could have sworn I put up several links (just a few posts up on this page even) and that instead of someone saying let's go to the other thread to debate those... I was told I was off topic.

I'm up for good debate. What we have here 99% of the time is lack of and more people wanting to play the games I have shown above.

Quote:

Why does it take more than facts to make you believe? What more could you want? You enjoy your view on the matter so you don't want to be proven wrong. Holding your pinkies in your ears shouting lalalalala much?

You came in this discussion with the 'MERICA RULEZ mindset when in reality these kids were being dickheads and deserved what they got. You WANTED to twist this into a "what is America coming to" argument, so you did. Nevermind the kids violating the dress code and purposely trying to disrespect kids at their school. If it involves patriotism, ANYTHING GOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I typically disagree with most of the "left leaning trollistic asses" on here and am neither demo or repub so don't even start.

I have debated, truly debated with respect shown on both sides and I learned somethings and it affected my opinion. What I see to believe does not necessarily have to come from an article or any media source but someone I respect and treats me with respect... It opens my mind enough for me to go and read up on the subject and maybe reform my opinion. Obtuse answers, attacks, attitudes of holier than thou, is more apt to close my mind rightfully or wrongfully so.

The ONLY reason I even answered this is I do have respect for you Lasereth, I am sorry you think the way you do of me.... but c'est la vie, n'est pas?

dc_dux · 05-14-2010, 01:18 PM

From high above:

Quote:

Calling someone's statement a lie is not a flame or punishable. You are not required to believe something you know is bullshit. So go ahead and call it when you see it - just be polite about it. The statement's the thing, not the person.

Posting anecdotal incidents or biased reports are hardly evidence to support one's position....and it certainly seems reasonable to me to politely call "bullshit" on your links and generalizations, pan, as others here have done.

To turn that into "being hounded" is a also a poor defense mechanism when you dont want to engage in honest debate....particularly from one who preaches "uniting, not dividing."

Lasereth · 05-17-2010, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

The ONLY reason I even answered this is I do have respect for you Lasereth, I am sorry you think the way you do of me.... but c'est la vie, n'est pas?

I don't think anything of you, I was just responding to your posts in this thread. This is the first time I've ever disagreed with your reaction on here actually.

I guess I just found it odd that the discussion went the way it did. You did post links to defend your point.

RogueGypsy · 05-17-2010, 12:10 PM

Pan, put down the keyboard and slowly walk away. These children wear helmets for a reason.

Strange Famous · 05-17-2010, 01:48 PM

I suspect that the average person with a Mexican background couldnt care less about someone wearing a shirt like that - but stuff like this does show why school uniform isnt such a bad idea.

05-13-2010, 06:15 AM	#96 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	In Chapter One of the U. S. Code states, "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery," and article 8j states, "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations." Wearing the flag on clothing is already being disrespectful to the US Code. Found this today on Ebert's blog and thought I'd leave it here. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

05-13-2010, 06:25 AM	#99 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Hm, against code...and not to mention rather corny. I should probably add that I'm suspicious about the motives of the kids in the U.S. flag gear. Given the size of the Mexican-American population in the school, they probably knew damn well it was Cinco de Mayo, as I'm sure there was a bit of a lead-up and anticipation of the observance at the school. That said, I don't see this kind of action---if it was indeed intentional---as patriotic. I see it as jingoistic, which in itself is disgraceful to the flag. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-13-2010, 01:32 PM	#104 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	Just a few thoughts because I'm killing a little time: I can see the point of view of the students to some extent here, I understand that this is a celebration for Mexican-Americans but at the same time being Americans themselves should the American flag really be offensive or seen as incendiary? Isn't it their flag too? I can see having pride in ones heritage and I would support anyone's right to proudly do so, however I would ask why celebrating ones Mexican heritage has to mean that somehow the US flag becomes offensive? Just a question I'm mulling over in my own mind I suppose. This story (to me) would make more sense if they were wearing shirts with anti Mexican slogans or blatantly going out of their way to be offensive towards Hispanics but were they really doing either by wearing an American flag? Is this really the same as say wearing a confederate flag t-shirt to an African American rally or showing up to a gay pride parade decked out with offensive anti gay slogans? That line doesn't seem like it was crossed here weather or not the students were trolling or just wearing what they always wear. So I guess I can see how being called out for wearing an American flag could be a little off putting to those on the outside looking in (as in "why would that be offensive? I don't get it"). However as I stated before there is probably more to this story then is being reported and as usual the truth of the whole matter lies somewhere in the middle. I dunno, again just a few thoughts I figured I'd throw out there for some discussion as its kind of an intersting topic about where the line should be on what should and shouldn't be considered offensive. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

05-14-2010, 04:47 AM	#109 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	pan---it's pretty obvious what's happening here (again)...and it's not a matter of your viewpoints per se. it's a matter of there being informal standards for what constitutes a discussion, which dovetails with what amounts to a collective understanding of what a statement is that someone advances, what you can say about it and what is expected. you seem to have a separate understanding of what a viewpoint is, like it's just some statement that you can fashion that reflects something of how you see things at that moment and isn't necessarily amenable to either evidence or argument. you just think it at that moment. which is fine in reality, but it's a strange position to take in a politics forum on a messageboard in which the only mode of interacting there is between us is discussion or debate. but you know this. you've been around here for a long time. so why do you act as though you don't understand what the community does in the politics forum and instead get all offended if you get called out on positions you adopt? if you didn't want the debate, you wouldn't write them here. if you just wanted to say what you think you can do that anywhere. so why act as though discussion/disagreement is a Problem in a forum that's about discussion/disagreement? i dont get it. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 05-14-2010 at 04:49 AM..

05-14-2010, 11:31 AM	#112 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	i think the dishonesty is in personally taking credit for billions of federal tax dollars. My guess is that less than $20 of the money YOU contribute to the federal kitty is going to the benefit of illegals. The whole "billions of dollars of MY TAX MONEY" thing is a red herring and intellectually dishonest, especially when the question posed to you was "how does it affect you personally" __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel Last edited by Derwood; 05-14-2010 at 11:33 AM..

05-12-2010, 02:56 PM	#82 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Pan you still haven't said what you have personally done to bend over backwards for Mexicans that that you haven't done for others.

05-13-2010, 03:38 AM	#94 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	And another thread ends with pan playing the victim, where have I seen this movie before? Christ pan, now you have to get, this is a forum, when you make statements people are going to ask you to back them up, plain and simple, you don't seem to get that part of a discussion forum, you seem to think people calling you on them is being 'hounded' or in my case that I'm 'personally attacking pan', which isn't the case. People here get called out every day when they type things, they don't throw hissy fits like a teenage girl who didn't get asked to prom, come on man, we're all adults here, grow up.

05-13-2010, 09:59 PM	#107 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	Isn't there a thread about illegal immigration already? Why is it that a story that mentions Hispanic students, but not their legal status, is now about the costs of illegal immigration?

05-17-2010, 12:10 PM	#119 (permalink)
RogueGypsy Insane Location: The Great NorthWet	Pan, put down the keyboard and slowly walk away. These children wear helmets for a reason. __________________ Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

05-17-2010, 01:48 PM	#120 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I suspect that the average person with a Mexican background couldnt care less about someone wearing a shirt like that - but stuff like this does show why school uniform isnt such a bad idea. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas