Cut taxes at any cost! GREAT idea! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ratbastid · 02-02-2010, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Denver Post

Colorado Springs cuts into services considered basic by many
By Michael Booth
The Denver Post
Posted: 01/31/2010 01:00:00 AM MST
Updated: 01/31/2010 09:17:44 AM MST

COLORADO SPRINGS — This tax-averse city is about to learn what it looks and feels like when budget cuts slash services most Americans consider part of the urban fabric.

More than a third of the streetlights in Colorado Springs will go dark Monday. The police helicopters are for sale on the Internet. The city is dumping firefighting jobs, a vice team, burglary investigators, beat cops — dozens of police and fire positions will go unfilled.

The parks department removed trash cans last week, replacing them with signs urging users to pack out their own litter.

Neighbors are encouraged to bring their own lawn mowers to local green spaces, because parks workers will mow them only once every two weeks. If that.

Water cutbacks mean most parks will be dead, brown turf by July; the flower and fertilizer budget is zero.

City recreation centers, indoor and outdoor pools, and a handful of museums will close for good March 31 unless they find private funding to stay open. Buses no longer run on evenings and weekends. The city won't pay for any street paving, relying instead on a regional authority that can meet only about 10 percent of the need.

"I guess we're going to find out what the tolerance level is for people," said businessman Chuck Fowler, who is helping lead a private task force brainstorming for city budget fixes. "It's a new day."

Some residents are less sanguine, arguing that cuts to bus services, drug enforcement and treatment and job development are attacks on basic needs for the working class.

"How are people supposed to live? We're not a 'Mayberry R.F.D.' anymore," said Addy Hansen, a criminal justice student who has spoken out about safety cuts. "We're the second-largest city, and growing, in Colorado. We're in trouble. We're in big trouble."

Mayor flinches at revenue

Colorado Springs' woes are more visceral versions of local and state cuts across the nation. Denver has cut salaries and human services workers, trimmed library hours and raised fees; Aurora shuttered four libraries; the state budget has seen round after round of wholesale cuts in education and personnel.

The deep recession bit into Colorado Springs sales-tax collections, while pension and health care costs for city employees continued to soar. Sales-tax updates have become a regular exercise in flinching for Mayor Lionel Rivera.

"Every month I open it up, and I look for a plus in front of the numbers instead of a minus," he said. The 2010 sales-tax forecast is almost $22 million less than 2007.

Voters in November said an emphatic no to a tripling of property tax that would have restored $27.6 million to the city's $212 million general fund budget. Fowler and many other residents say voters don't trust city government to wisely spend a general tax increase and don't believe the current cuts are the only way to balance a budget.

Dead grass, dark streets

But the 2010 spending choices are complete, and local residents and businesses are preparing for a slew of changes:

• The steep parks and recreation cuts mean a radical reshifting of resources from more than 100 neighborhood parks to a few popular regional parks. The city cut watering drastically in 2009 but "got lucky" with weekly summer rains, said parks maintenance manager Kurt Schroeder.

With even more watering cuts, "if we repeat the weather of 2008, we're at risk of losing every bit of turf we have in our neighborhood parks," Schroeder said. Six city greenhouses are shut down. The city spent $19.6 million on parks in 2007; this year it will spend $3.1 million.

"If a playground burns down, I can't replace it," Schroeder said. Park fans' only hope is the possibility of a new ballot tax pledged to recreation spending that might win over skeptical voters.

• Community center and pool closures have parents worried about day-care costs, idle teenagers and shut-in grandparents with nowhere to go.

Hillside Community Center, on the southeastern edge of downtown Colorado Springs in a low- to moderate-income neighborhood, is scrambling to find private partners to stay open. Moms such as Kirsten Williams doubt they can replace Hillside's dedicated staff and preschool rates of $200 for six-week sessions.

"It's affordable, the program is phenomenal, and the staff all grew up here," Williams said. "You can't re-create that kind of magic."

Shutting down youth services is shortsighted, she argues. "You're going to pay now, or you're going to pay later. There's trouble if kids don't have things to do."

• Though officials and citizens put public safety above all in the budget, police and firefighting still lost more than $5.5 million this year. Positions that will go empty range from a domestic violence specialist to a deputy chief to juvenile offender officers. Fire squad 108 loses three firefighters. Putting the helicopters up for sale and eliminating the officers and a mechanic banked $877,000.

• Tourism outlets have attacked budget choices that hit them precisely as they're struggling to draw choosy visitors to the West.

The city cut three economic-development positions, land-use planning, long-range strategic planning and zoning and neighborhood inspectors. It also repossessed a large portion of a dedicated lodgers and car rental tax rather than transfer it to the visitors' bureau.

"It's going to hurt. If they don't at least market Colorado Springs, it doesn't get the people here," said Nancy Stovall, owner of Pine Creek Art Gallery on the tourism strip of Old Colorado City. Other states, such as New Mexico and Wyoming, will continue to market, and tourism losses will further erode city sales-tax revenue, merchants say.

• Turning out the lights, literally, is one of the high-profile trims aggravating some residents. The city-run Colorado Springs Utilities will shut down 8,000 to 10,000 of more than 24,000 streetlights, to save $1.2 million in energy and bulb replacement.

Hansen, the criminal-justice student, grows especially exasperated when recalling a scary incident a few years ago as she waited for a bus. She said a carload of drunken men approached her until the police helicopter that had been trailing them turned a spotlight on the men and chased them off. Now the helicopter is gone, and the streetlight she was waiting under is threatened as well.

"I don't know a person in this city who doesn't think that's just the stupidest thing on the planet," Hansen said. "Colorado Springs leaders put patches on problems and hope that will handle it."

Employee pay criticized

Community business leaders have jumped into the budget debate, some questioning city spending on what they see as "Ferrari"-level benefits for employees and high salaries in middle management. Broadmoor luxury resort chief executive Steve Bartolin wrote an open letter asking why the city spends $89,000 per employee, when his enterprise has a similar number of workers and spends only $24,000 on each.

Businessman Fowler, saying he is now speaking for the task force Bartolin supports, said the city should study the Broadmoor's use of seasonal employees and realistic manager pay.

"I don't know if people are convinced that the water needed to be turned off in the parks, or the trash cans need to come out, or the lights need to go off," Fowler said. "I think we'll have a big turnover in City Council a year from April. Until we get a new group in there, people aren't really going to believe much of anything."

Mayor and council are part-time jobs in Colorado Springs, points out Mayor Rivera, that pay $6,250 a year ($250 extra for the mayor). "We have jobs, we pay taxes, we use services, just like they do," Rivera said, acknowledging there is a "level of distrust" of public officials at many levels.

Rivera said he welcomes help from Bartolin, the private task force and any other source volunteering to rethink government. He is slightly encouraged, for now, that his monthly sales-tax reports are just ahead of budget predictions.

Officials across the city know their phone lines will light up as parks go brown, trash gathers in the weeds, and streets and alleys go dark.

"There's a lot of anger, a lot of frustration about how governments spend their money," Rivera said. "It's not unique to Colorado Springs."

Read more: Colorado Springs cuts into services considered basic by many - The Denver Post

This is the end-game of the short-sighted, selfish "cut my taxes at any cost" thinking that the right wing of American politics has pushed middle America into.

Tell you what, let's just end all services. Let potholes turn into sinkholes. Let your weekly garbage just sit out at the curb to rot. Libraries? Schools? Snow plows? Who needs 'em. At least we won't be paying those evil, evil taxes.

Never mind REALITY. Never mind the fact that tax rates at both ends of the income spectrum are far lower than they have been historically. No, the way to whip America into a teabagging frenzy is to claim our taxes are too high and then scare them with the threat of NOT lowering them.

Thoughts?

Baraka_Guru · 02-02-2010, 06:33 AM

Let's not get too hasty here....maybe they should privatize everything.

ratbastid · 02-02-2010, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Let's not get too hasty here....maybe they should privatize everything.

Good, yeah, that's a plan. Paying twice as much is fine as long as it's not going to that evil gummint.

Derwood · 02-02-2010, 07:19 AM

It's the mentality of "I don't want to pay for what I don't use."

I drive to work, so why should I have to pay for public transport?

I don't have kids, why should should I have to pay for public schools?

I don't use the library, why should I have to pay for it?

Etc.

etc.

etc.

Rekna · 02-02-2010, 07:32 AM

If they cut all that stuff this is actually good for liberals as this city is going to become a crime ridden dump, property values will fall, and everyone will start to move out. This will highlight the importance of the services that were cut.

aceventura3 · 02-02-2010, 07:49 AM

I have had to cut back in my household and business. Last summer I did not water my grass, I turn off lights, etc, why shouldn't government? Colorado Springs is a great place to live and will continue to be a great place to live.

Derwood · 02-02-2010, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I have had to cut back in my household and business. Last summer I did not water my grass, I turn off lights, etc, why shouldn't government? Colorado Springs is a great place to live and will continue to be a great place to live.

does not compute

dksuddeth · 02-02-2010, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

does not compute

why not?

Derwood · 02-02-2010, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

why not?

household budget vs. city budget is apples to oranges.

fresnelly · 02-02-2010, 08:09 AM

I suppose in an ideal world, the citizens would form community councils and co-ops to chip in and take care of local services such as groundskeeping, snow-plowing and garbage pick-up.

I suspect the local debate will focus strongly on this nugget instead of grassroots initiatives or any mass call for increased taxes:

Quote:

...while pension and health care costs for city employees continued to soar...

dogzilla · 02-02-2010, 08:18 AM

Well, when my total tax bill amounts to about 1/3 of my income, and what I get for it is basically national defense, education, public safety and roads to drive on, why shouldn't I question why I am paying this amount? I track my spending fairly carefully, and no other category of my budget comes anywhere close to 33% of my income. I don't need the government telling me that I need to finance things because someone else thinks they are a good idea. That includes Obama and his asinine economic stimulus programs that don't seem to be doing much other than sticking it to the taxpayer in upcoming years.

Derwood · 02-02-2010, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

Well, when my total tax bill amounts to about 1/3 of my income, and what I get for it is basically national defense, education, public safety and roads to drive on, why shouldn't I question why I am paying this amount? I track my spending fairly carefully, and no other category of my budget comes anywhere close to 33% of my income. I don't need the government telling me that I need to finance things because someone else thinks they are a good idea. That includes Obama and his asinine economic stimulus programs that don't seem to be doing much other than sticking it to the taxpayer in upcoming years.

so what's your solution?

dksuddeth · 02-02-2010, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

household budget vs. city budget is apples to oranges.

now I can comprehend your error in logic. there's no hope for you to understand basic economic reality.

Derwood · 02-02-2010, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

now I can comprehend your error in logic. there's no hope for you to understand basic economic reality.

it's not that hard: my household has 2 adults and 2 kids. If we decide we're not going to eat at restaurants for a month, we'll save a little money. Simple.

a city government has hundreds (or thousands) of employees, systems of checks and balances, and hundreds of moving parts. They can't simply say "we'll just not do X for awhile to save money". It's not that simple.

To say "I can tighten my belt at home, why can't the city government?" is extraordinarily naive

aceventura3 · 02-02-2010, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

household budget vs. city budget is apples to oranges.

I have a lot of experience with budgets, personal, big business, small business, organizations, schools, and municipal. You may have different line items, you may have more or fewer 000's but they are all the same, you have income, expenses and a net. The net amount or your access to other funds determines what you have to go back and adjust. It is not complicated no matter how big or small the budget is.

dogzilla · 02-02-2010, 09:04 AM

My opinion? First, limit entitlement programs strictly to those who are disabled and cannot work. Second, any non-essential government services are either funded on a self-supporting basis or they are closed. If I want to take advantage of a park, a daycare, cultural event or other non-essential government function, then I should have to pay for it. Third, until government debt is reduced to much more reasonable levels, government spending for anything other than key government responsibilities of defense, public safety and education is at best cut significantly and at worst held to no increases. Key government programs need justifiable reasons for any increases. And no, going off to Iraq and Afghanistan in search of problems is not justifiable. Fourth, public employee benefits are renegotiated downward. Fifth, earmarks, or whatever other pork Congressmen return to their districts is forbidden. Sixth, taxation is not to be used as a form of wealth redistribution.

aceventura3 · 02-02-2010, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

it's not that hard: my household has 2 adults and 2 kids. If we decide we're not going to eat at restaurants for a month, we'll save a little money. Simple.

a city government has hundreds (or thousands) of employees, systems of checks and balances, and hundreds of moving parts. They can't simply say "we'll just not do X for awhile to save money". It's not that simple.

To say "I can tighten my belt at home, why can't the city government?" is extraordinarily naive

There are different types of expenses some are fixed, some variable and some discretionary. Watering grass is discretionary for a home or a city, perhaps not for a sod farm. Cutting the use of electricity is an example of a variable expense for a home or a city. And so it goes...

Derwood · 02-02-2010, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I have a lot of experience with budgets, personal, big business, small business, organizations, schools, and municipal. You may have different line items, you may have more or fewer 000's but they are all the same, you have income, expenses and a net. The net amount or your access to other funds determines what you have to go back and adjust. It is not complicated no matter how big or small the budget is.

Does your small business have a group of elected officials, all with different opinions, who are required to debate and vote on every budget change for your business?

Jinn · 02-02-2010, 09:23 AM

Wow, an article that I'm actually relevantly tied to!

Seeing as how I live in Colorado Springs, I actually saw this first hand and was really dissapointed with the budget cuts and the ballot issues that people voted against simply because it might mean giving an extra 12 cents a month to that horrible, evil government. My girlfriend works at the largest hospital here in the Springs, and despite being self-sufficient, the city and the newspapers were publishing articles of every salary of every employee at the hospital in an effort to 'shame' people into saying they were overpaid and somehow getting more money out of it for city budgets. The average police response time to a 911 call here was 14 minutes, and it's now jumped to over 20 minutes. A lot changes in a burglary situation between when I call and what is happening twenty minutes later.

Lights are indeed being turned off, they're taking trash cans away.. just about everything is being reduced or cut completely because people are so incensed by the idea that they should actually have to pay the city for the services they use.. OH THE INJUSTICE!!

They don't plow the streets anymore, and so if there's more than five or six inches of snow I end up being forced to work from home, the list goes on and on. But really, city services are the least of my concerns, living in a city with the home base of Focus on the Family and surrounded by the Air Force Academy on one side and an Army base on the other.

aceventura3 · 02-02-2010, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

Does your small business have a group of elected officials, all with different opinions, who are required to debate and vote on every budget change for your business?

Mine does not but when I worked for a large corp. we had a board of directors, CEO, and various department heads, all with their own agenda. In my personal life I have a wife, son, a mother-in-law and a homeowners association, all with opinions on how our household money be spent.

ratbastid · 02-02-2010, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Mine does not but when I worked for a large corp. we had a board of directors, CEO, and various department heads, all with their own agenda. In my personal life I have a wife, son, a mother-in-law and a homeowners association, all with opinions on how our household money be spent.

I remember when Bush II was elected, he was hailed as the "first CEO president". We can see how well that went. Guy was a fiscal train wreck.

Daniel_ · 02-02-2010, 12:04 PM

If he'd been good as a CEO, he'd not have had to go into politics...

Rekna · 02-02-2010, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn

Wow, an article that I'm actually relevantly tied to!

Seeing as how I live in Colorado Springs, I actually saw this first hand and was really dissapointed with the budget cuts and the ballot issues that people voted against simply because it might mean giving an extra 12 cents a month to that horrible, evil government. My girlfriend works at the largest hospital here in the Springs, and despite being self-sufficient, the city and the newspapers were publishing articles of every salary of every employee at the hospital in an effort to 'shame' people into saying they were overpaid and somehow getting more money out of it for city budgets. The average police response time to a 911 call here was 14 minutes, and it's now jumped to over 20 minutes. A lot changes in a burglary situation between when I call and what is happening twenty minutes later.

Lights are indeed being turned off, they're taking trash cans away.. just about everything is being reduced or cut completely because people are so incensed by the idea that they should actually have to pay the city for the services they use.. OH THE INJUSTICE!!

They don't plow the streets anymore, and so if there's more than five or six inches of snow I end up being forced to work from home, the list goes on and on. But really, city services are the least of my concerns, living in a city with the home base of Focus on the Family and surrounded by the Air Force Academy on one side and an Army base on the other.

I'm curious to know what has happened with property values in Colorado Springs since this has gone through. I'm guessing they are going to drop like a rock.

scout · 02-02-2010, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I remember when Bush II was elected, he was hailed as the "first CEO president". We can see how well that went. Guy was a fiscal train wreck.

HaHaHa that's funny. Like our current leader is a banner boy for fiscal astuteness and responsibility. And please save me the rhetoric about having to spend our way out of this recession as you know as well as I that was nothing but political bullshit. It was political bullshit when Bush signed the first recovery act and it was still bullshit when Obama signed the second one. It was nothing but a way for both parties to pay back political cronies. Neither one has saved or created any jobs to speak of. Unemployment still continues to stay steady or grow with each passing week. In fact in a direct camparison between Obama and Bush our present illustrious leader wins the spending battle hands down. With less than a year in office and single stroke of a pen he more than doubled the debt it took Bush to accumulate over 8 years. So please your arguments would be much more believable if you just called bullshit bullshit and spared us the bipartisanship.

Charlatan · 02-02-2010, 05:07 PM

His post wasn't about Obama. It wasn't bipartisan. It was a statement aimed to rebuff a comment that implied that what is needed is more business-like thinking in government with a comment that Bush was lauded as a CEO President. No comparison was made or is needed. Simple statement.

If anyone is being bipartisan it is your comment that brought it up.

matthew330 · 02-02-2010, 08:03 PM

I'm concerned. The "dead grass, dark streets" was powerful, but it doesn't stop there:
please refer to this photograph that accompanies this article here: michael booth Colorado Independent

This is the face of anti-tax conservatism in America today. If you zoom in real close to a picnic bench and look down, EVIL EVIL..............trash. Conservatives are killing us.

My take on this: Global warming failed to convince the populace that conservatives destroying the world when... well, it actually got colder, "climate change" didn't help - Colorado Springs - DONT LET US DOWN!!!!!

Ratbastid, my other thought would be - how close to Colorado Springs are you? and if not that close, where did you find this? Perhaps you shouldn't jump the gun this time. Wait to see what happens before you make fools of yourselves again. Lets look at colorado springs from outside underneath that picnic bench in a year, and then maybe you'll be worth listening too.

Cynthetiq · 02-02-2010, 08:17 PM

Cry me a river.

NYC is cutting teachers, police officers, closing firehouses, closing schools, and more. They have already turned off lights on some of the highways and exits. Homeless shelters are being closed. When 9/11 happened to save money they stopped collecting recyclables, i wouldn't be surprised if it gets cut again. MTA is cutting service on subways and buses. Many other services are getting cut.

While I don't agree that the general populace should be allowed to deal with fiscal issues, I do believe that services should not be provided if the budget doesn't provide the funds to cover it.

Baraka_Guru · 02-02-2010, 08:18 PM

The ironic thing is that Outside magazine voted Colorado Springs as America's Best City in 2009.

Cynthetiq · 02-02-2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

I'm concerned. The "dead grass, dark streets" was powerful, but it doesn't stop there:
please refer to this photograph that accompanies this article here: michael booth Colorado Independent

This is the face of anti-tax conservatism in America today. If you zoom in real close to a picnic bench and look down, EVIL EVIL..............trash. Conservatives are killing us.

My take on this: Global warming failed to convince the populace that conservatives destroying the world when... well, it actually got colder, "climate change" didn't help - Colorado Springs - DONT LET US DOWN!!!!!

Ratbastid, my other thought would be - how close to Colorado Springs are you? and if not that close, where did you find this? Perhaps you shouldn't jump the gun this time. Wait to see what happens before you make fools of yourselves again. Lets look at colorado springs from outside underneath that picnic bench in a year, and then maybe you'll be worth listening too.

There are plenty of parks that look like that in LA during the normal times when there was no economic crisis. go to any park that has scores of people playing soccer on the weekends and it looks just like that at the end of the day on Sunday.

Iliftrocks · 02-09-2010, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

My take on this: Global warming failed to convince the populace that conservatives destroying the world when... well, it actually got colder

Hey, look, a climate change denier. My day is complete. I can scratch that off of my internet scavenger list.

It got colder, hehehehehaahahhhaaahhhhaaa whoop

RogueGypsy · 02-09-2010, 08:58 AM

There will be no working reform through our current governments, ever. Public service has become the cash cow of the inept and corrupt. No one polices them and they take full advantage of that situation. If we want responsible, affordable government we will have to fix that ourselves, the politicians are not going to do it for us, they have too much to loose. Would anyone go to their boss and say 'I think you need to cut my salary and reduce my benefits' ?????

If we really want to fix this we need to: down-size government, return rights to the states, introduce term limits on all public offices, eliminate retirement benefits for those offices, introduce a flat tax, fire the IRS and take a more active roll in governing ourselves.

I could go on and on about this, but I hate to be preachy. I will share one immediate solution with long term impact.

Welfare, kill it! I know there are those who do need help, but the system is so over run with slackers and dirt bags now, I see no way to fix the current system. The new system would require all who can work in any capacity to work.

If you had 5 kids to get a bigger check , great, you are now going to be caring for 15 more while those parents work. You will be paid minimum wage. If that's not enough, get a better job. Public works, administration, library workers, meter maids, postal workers, highway crews, forest rangers, census takers.....etc. There are millions of low level public service jobs that require little or no skills that could accommodate a pool of cheap labor.

That should reduce welfare to about 25% of the current cost. Give 50% of that fund to education including 2 years of college for any citizen. Now we have a more productive society, we're saving money and are better educated.

Derwood · 02-09-2010, 10:14 AM

so much wrong with that post....where to start....

Baraka_Guru · 02-09-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

so much wrong with that post....where to start....

Are you talking about the plan or the "facts"? Both?

Derwood · 02-09-2010, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Are you talking about the plan or the "facts"? Both?

Mostly the idea that welfare is "overrun" with abusers, which is patently false. They get the most publicity, sure, but the VAST majority of those who use welfare are NOT abusers of the system.

rahl · 02-09-2010, 10:59 AM

Is welfare tied into medicaid? I admit I don't know much about the administration of medicaid, just the result of the system, which in my opinion is taken advantage of to the point where it is becoming useless. I tend to lump together welfare, medicaid, and social security disability when it's being abused. I'm not sure of the distinctions.

Baraka_Guru · 02-09-2010, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

Mostly the idea that welfare is "overrun" with abusers, which is patently false. They get the most publicity, sure, but the VAST majority of those who use welfare are NOT abusers of the system.

Oh, I also got hung up on the idea that there's a problem with welfare recipients having more children to get bigger cheques....yet no mention that many welfare recipients only use the system temporarily.

Before killing a system, it's best to know how it works and how it's used.

Derwood · 02-09-2010, 11:25 AM

or the idea that we should cut everyone off of welfare and force them to work in an economy with 10% unemployment

dksuddeth · 02-09-2010, 12:32 PM

I thought the downsizing government idea was excellent though.

RogueGypsy · 02-10-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

or the idea that we should cut everyone off of welfare and force them to work in an economy with 10% unemployment

I re-read my post and obviously omitted a system for the truly needy, whom I do believe exist and do deserve our help. I would not want nor intentionally suggest they be deserted.

The rest however are dirt bags. If you have doubts, buy some Kevlar and hang out in the projects. The vast majority of the residents I've encountered are junkies or baby factories. The former openly discuss wanting more kids for a bigger payday. Sure they get the most press, but I've met may others walking around in daily life. People too fat to comfortably move about. I don't think I, or anyone else should have to pay for their poor diet choices. People with too many kids to support themselves. People who've never worked a day in their lives because their parents didn't. People with nondescript 'medical conditions' . For every 1 deserving person I've met, there are 4 or 5 who are just plain lazy. This is not something local to my locale either, I've lived all over the country in my lifetime and found the same in each place East, West, North and South.

As for forcing people to work in an economy with 10% unemployment. To me sounds much better than paying someone to sit around and do nothing in an economy with 10% unemployment. At least working there is some return. If the check is being written anyway, why shouldn't they earn it?

Of course I'm a little biased, I'm usually working 2 or 3 jobs just to make ends meet. The third job I work usually covers the amount the government takes from me to support those who don't work. So I'm sure you can see where that makes me wonder why they can't support themselves or contribute in some way.

Very few people are completely useless, every day I see disabled and impaired people leading happy and productive lives. Suggesting anyone short of a quadriplegic or a similarly physically or mentally debilitated person is incapable of helping to sustain themselves is simply untrue. Fuck look at Stephen Hawking, he really makes them all look like cunts. He's strapped in a chair drooling on himself, but some guy with a twitch needs our support???

Welfare has become a way of life for many families in this country and it needs to come to an end.

0...

---------- Post added at 08:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Oh, I also got hung up on the idea that there's a problem with welfare recipients having more children to get bigger cheques....yet no mention that many welfare recipients only use the system temporarily.

Before killing a system, it's best to know how it works and how it's used.

There was only brief mention of those who use the system properly because they are not the problem. And although omitted from the previous post, there should be a system in place for those who are truly needy. I am very familiar with how the system works through both recipients of the benefits and those who disperse them.

I can appreciate those who like to see only the good in the world, unfortunately that view rarely solves any problems or creates any progress. It is not an idea that recipients have move children to get bigger checks, it is a very sad reality.

---------- Post added at 08:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

or the idea that we should cut everyone off of welfare and force them to work in an economy with 10% unemployment

What does a bad economy have to do with ones abilities?

Baraka_Guru · 02-10-2010, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogueGypsy

There was only brief mention of those who use the system properly because they are not the problem. And although omitted from the previous post, there should be a system in place for those who are truly needy. I am very familiar with how the system works through both recipients of the benefits and those who disperse them.

I can appreciate those who like to see only the good in the world, unfortunately that view rarely solves any problems or creates any progress. It is not an idea that recipients have move children to get bigger checks, it is a very sad reality.

I suppose my point is that killing the welfare system will bring harm to the wrong people. What concerns you about the welfare system is likely a group smaller than the "invisible" majority. Do you have any stats on those who abuse the system? It's my understanding that "having more kids to get more money" is a problem of mythical proportions. I recall that chronic welfare users aren't even a majority of users. Correct me if I'm wrong.

02-02-2010, 06:33 AM	#2 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Let's not get too hasty here....maybe they should privatize everything. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

02-02-2010, 07:19 AM	#4 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	It's the mentality of "I don't want to pay for what I don't use." I drive to work, so why should I have to pay for public transport? I don't have kids, why should should I have to pay for public schools? I don't use the library, why should I have to pay for it? Etc. etc. etc. __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

02-02-2010, 07:49 AM	#6 (permalink)
aceventura3 Junkie Location: Ventura County	I have had to cut back in my household and business. Last summer I did not water my grass, I turn off lights, etc, why shouldn't government? Colorado Springs is a great place to live and will continue to be a great place to live. __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

02-02-2010, 09:23 AM	#19 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Wow, an article that I'm actually relevantly tied to! Seeing as how I live in Colorado Springs, I actually saw this first hand and was really dissapointed with the budget cuts and the ballot issues that people voted against simply because it might mean giving an extra 12 cents a month to that horrible, evil government. My girlfriend works at the largest hospital here in the Springs, and despite being self-sufficient, the city and the newspapers were publishing articles of every salary of every employee at the hospital in an effort to 'shame' people into saying they were overpaid and somehow getting more money out of it for city budgets. The average police response time to a 911 call here was 14 minutes, and it's now jumped to over 20 minutes. A lot changes in a burglary situation between when I call and what is happening twenty minutes later. Lights are indeed being turned off, they're taking trash cans away.. just about everything is being reduced or cut completely because people are so incensed by the idea that they should actually have to pay the city for the services they use.. OH THE INJUSTICE!! They don't plow the streets anymore, and so if there's more than five or six inches of snow I end up being forced to work from home, the list goes on and on. But really, city services are the least of my concerns, living in a city with the home base of Focus on the Family and surrounded by the Air Force Academy on one side and an Army base on the other. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

02-02-2010, 12:04 PM	#22 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	If he'd been good as a CEO, he'd not have had to go into politics... __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

02-02-2010, 07:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	If they cut all that stuff this is actually good for liberals as this city is going to become a crime ridden dump, property values will fall, and everyone will start to move out. This will highlight the importance of the services that were cut.

02-02-2010, 08:18 AM	#11 (permalink)
dogzilla Junkie Location: New York	Well, when my total tax bill amounts to about 1/3 of my income, and what I get for it is basically national defense, education, public safety and roads to drive on, why shouldn't I question why I am paying this amount? I track my spending fairly carefully, and no other category of my budget comes anywhere close to 33% of my income. I don't need the government telling me that I need to finance things because someone else thinks they are a good idea. That includes Obama and his asinine economic stimulus programs that don't seem to be doing much other than sticking it to the taxpayer in upcoming years.

02-02-2010, 09:04 AM	#16 (permalink)
dogzilla Junkie Location: New York	My opinion? First, limit entitlement programs strictly to those who are disabled and cannot work. Second, any non-essential government services are either funded on a self-supporting basis or they are closed. If I want to take advantage of a park, a daycare, cultural event or other non-essential government function, then I should have to pay for it. Third, until government debt is reduced to much more reasonable levels, government spending for anything other than key government responsibilities of defense, public safety and education is at best cut significantly and at worst held to no increases. Key government programs need justifiable reasons for any increases. And no, going off to Iraq and Afghanistan in search of problems is not justifiable. Fourth, public employee benefits are renegotiated downward. Fifth, earmarks, or whatever other pork Congressmen return to their districts is forbidden. Sixth, taxation is not to be used as a form of wealth redistribution.

02-02-2010, 05:07 PM	#25 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	His post wasn't about Obama. It wasn't bipartisan. It was a statement aimed to rebuff a comment that implied that what is needed is more business-like thinking in government with a comment that Bush was lauded as a CEO President. No comparison was made or is needed. Simple statement. If anyone is being bipartisan it is your comment that brought it up. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-02-2010, 08:03 PM	#26 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	I'm concerned. The "dead grass, dark streets" was powerful, but it doesn't stop there: please refer to this photograph that accompanies this article here: michael booth Colorado Independent This is the face of anti-tax conservatism in America today. If you zoom in real close to a picnic bench and look down, EVIL EVIL..............trash. Conservatives are killing us. My take on this: Global warming failed to convince the populace that conservatives destroying the world when... well, it actually got colder, "climate change" didn't help - Colorado Springs - DONT LET US DOWN!!!!! Ratbastid, my other thought would be - how close to Colorado Springs are you? and if not that close, where did you find this? Perhaps you shouldn't jump the gun this time. Wait to see what happens before you make fools of yourselves again. Lets look at colorado springs from outside underneath that picnic bench in a year, and then maybe you'll be worth listening too.

02-02-2010, 08:17 PM	#27 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Cry me a river. NYC is cutting teachers, police officers, closing firehouses, closing schools, and more. They have already turned off lights on some of the highways and exits. Homeless shelters are being closed. When 9/11 happened to save money they stopped collecting recyclables, i wouldn't be surprised if it gets cut again. MTA is cutting service on subways and buses. Many other services are getting cut. While I don't agree that the general populace should be allowed to deal with fiscal issues, I do believe that services should not be provided if the budget doesn't provide the funds to cover it. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

02-02-2010, 08:18 PM	#28 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The ironic thing is that Outside magazine voted Colorado Springs as America's Best City in 2009. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

02-09-2010, 08:58 AM	#31 (permalink)
RogueGypsy Insane Location: The Great NorthWet	There will be no working reform through our current governments, ever. Public service has become the cash cow of the inept and corrupt. No one polices them and they take full advantage of that situation. If we want responsible, affordable government we will have to fix that ourselves, the politicians are not going to do it for us, they have too much to loose. Would anyone go to their boss and say 'I think you need to cut my salary and reduce my benefits' ????? If we really want to fix this we need to: down-size government, return rights to the states, introduce term limits on all public offices, eliminate retirement benefits for those offices, introduce a flat tax, fire the IRS and take a more active roll in governing ourselves. I could go on and on about this, but I hate to be preachy. I will share one immediate solution with long term impact. Welfare, kill it! I know there are those who do need help, but the system is so over run with slackers and dirt bags now, I see no way to fix the current system. The new system would require all who can work in any capacity to work. If you had 5 kids to get a bigger check , great, you are now going to be caring for 15 more while those parents work. You will be paid minimum wage. If that's not enough, get a better job. Public works, administration, library workers, meter maids, postal workers, highway crews, forest rangers, census takers.....etc. There are millions of low level public service jobs that require little or no skills that could accommodate a pool of cheap labor. That should reduce welfare to about 25% of the current cost. Give 50% of that fund to education including 2 years of college for any citizen. Now we have a more productive society, we're saving money and are better educated. __________________ Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

02-09-2010, 10:14 AM	#32 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	so much wrong with that post....where to start.... __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

02-09-2010, 10:59 AM	#35 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	Is welfare tied into medicaid? I admit I don't know much about the administration of medicaid, just the result of the system, which in my opinion is taken advantage of to the point where it is becoming useless. I tend to lump together welfare, medicaid, and social security disability when it's being abused. I'm not sure of the distinctions. __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

02-09-2010, 11:25 AM	#37 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	or the idea that we should cut everyone off of welfare and force them to work in an economy with 10% unemployment __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

02-09-2010, 12:32 PM	#38 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	I thought the downsizing government idea was excellent though. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."