9/12 Tea Party Interview Video
 

Anyways, *sigh* I do not understand these people. Anyone care to discuss? I mean, if there was even some semblance of logic on the right, I would totally follow it. But frankly, all I see is some corporate greed and disillusioned Americans who are fed some nonsense--out of fear. What do I know, though? Right?

FYI, [YOUTUBE]what appears after "watch?v="["slash"YOUTUBE]

They're fucking stupid, and many of them are armed. If they were benign, I wouldn't care, but many of them are turning to domestic terrorism. Basically, the instigating figures—Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, that Savage guy no one on the left talks about for some reason, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and the few others—need to be held legally responsible for inciting violence right along with the wingnuts that carry it out.

The best thing we can all do, though, is talk to our grandparents. I know they're old, smell funny, and we're never quite sure if they bathe, but they're the ones losing their minds. Go over to the house, program the remote, and calmly and politely work into the conversation that the public option is simply Medicare for the rest of us.

Domestic terrorists... really? I mean there were thousands if not hundreds of thousands or more there without any major acts of violence. How is that terrorism? Seem pretty absurd to me.

Can someone re-link the vid I can't even view it. I'm guessing there's something crazy like planes crashing into buildings or bombs going off from this post...

Here's the link...


...and I bow back out of the thread.
(Caerus, that post limit helps keep down the spam. It's a necessary evil.)

Yes. Maybe you remember a holocaust museum being shot up? Or a doctor that performed abortions being shot? Or a "liberal" church getting shot up? Maybe you remember people showing up to town halls not just armed, but armed and making death threats? Maybe you've heard of the pastor that's giving people permission to kill the president?

BTW, what did the Holocaust museum shooter and the Tiller murder have in common? It rhymes with Box Bews. What organization is behind the 9/12 and tea party movements? It rhymes with Jox Jews.
There were 70,000 at most, and I didn't say they were guilty of domestic terrorism. I said some of them (them clearly meaning those of the ilk of the 9/12 protesters and tea partiers) are turning to domestic terrorism. And several of them are.

For comparative purposes, how many anti-war leftists turned to murder and domestic terrorism to protest against Bush?

Domestic terrorists is a stretch but many of those with the more inflammatory signs and comments being viewed as outside the mainstream is not a stretch. Those signs and vids have some Republicans worried about backlash.

The numbers, by most reputable reports, between 50-75K. A very respectable number. The claim by organizers and some conservative bloggers of more than 1 million is laughable, as are the fake pics from rallies past.

"Tea party" photo shows huge crowd — at different event"

To include a few wackos in a march of tens of thousands is pretty asinine. I'm not saying the people here had the greatest points to make, but they weren't terrorists plain and simple.

How many of them carried with them messages of not just hate but death threats? At the San Jose tea party back in April there were a dozen "tree of liberty" quotes, suggesting that the president had to die. That message has not disappeared, but increased since then. It's one of the memes.

The signs are intimidating as they are meant to be and ignorant as they are not meant to be...and in both cases, have little appeal to main stream centrists who decide elections.

..

That may or may not be the case, but the difference being....youtube!

Those vids are gonna come back and bite Republicans on the ass.

A special message from Glenn Beck:


It's difficult to take any of these people seriously.

It's only a select few, right?

How many anti-war leftists turned to murder and domestic terrorism to protest against Bush?
How many anti-war leftists turned to murder and domestic terrorism to protest against Bush?

Umm let me guess: zero? I don't even understand why you are harping on this. The
protesters do not equal the crazys you are referring too. No one is condoning these acts of violence.

I'm not talking about condoning after the fact, I'm talking about providing an environment that fosters and even accepts these extremists. Of those 70,000 or less people, I doubt many of them are crazy enough to commit acts of terrorism, but every time you see a death threat or an instance of massive, godwin hyperbole, you're seeing an environment that fosters violent extremism. Do you think it's a coincidence that these terrorists watch Beck and BillO and such?

it's definitely ramping up here. and c'mon man, if 2-3 wackos in Iraq constitutes terrorism, why not in the US ? if you had your place of work/worship or clinic shot up what would you call it ?

For that matter, which MSNBC, Air America (etc....) personality should we blame for the terrorist actions of ELF and the guy who just recently gunned down an anti-abortion protester in front of a school? You're going to find crazies in any demography. Was anything extreme ever said or done regarding Bush? I bet you could find some pretty disturbing commentary regarding our last president right here in the archives of TFP. Let's try maintaining some perspective before demonizing a group of people that most (here) seem to know little about, and seem all too eager to jump on the "lets label them as terrorists" band-wagon.

---------- Post added at 06:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 AM ----------

What about his "special announcement" do you take issue with? The thing about building the towers back was in context with topics discussed earlier in the show... an emotional summary (sappy too) to wrap up his point. The part about juggling and monopoly money was a comedic advertisement segment to promote tomorrow's show... which some may actually try to watch before making uninformed commentary. But where's the fun in that? Righteous indignation is always gratifying and doesn't require actual facts... there's YouTube and Wikipedia to back you up!

---------- Post added at 06:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 AM ----------

Yes, there are some fine examples of Obama supporters out there too... do we really need to go there? :)

Right. Candidates who blasted the airwaves with Rev Wright videos really benefited.

Centrists dont like personal attacks or disparaging the office of the president or blatant lies or even subtle threats...as are displayed in so many of those signs and expressed in so many of the videos.

They also dont like taking direction from guys like Beck and Limbaugh but its hilarious how so few Republican officials will condemn those guys for their misleading bullshit...or when they do, how they immediately backtrack when their base takes offense.

Seriously, how can any candidate please that extremist base and attract centrists/independents at the same time.....its mixing oil and water.

Boy, you guys are in rare form. Knock yourselves out!

Yeah, for starters, there's this. It's a shameless appeal to emotions. Nice soundtrack.

I've seen Beck's use of "actual facts." I'm not going to watch the show for them. I'd rather seek them elsewhere....and save myself some time.

I guess leftists setting fires SUV dealerships aren't 'terrorists.'

:rolleyes:

Umm, yes they are... so are guys that blow up federal buildings.

:lol: I couldn't get through but half of it...the lengths that people will go to to tell a story...and folks lap it up like manna from the gods.

my boyfriend, you know, he comes from a very conservative background and is fairly conservative himself (voted for McCain), although honestly he's more apolitical than anything (you won't catch him waxing frenetic about this shit like I do, lol). but he made an observation last night that I thought was pretty relevant in regards to items like this video. He received an email from his dad, a basic Obama-bashing piece of junkmail - a very lengthy, rambling one which opened with the observation that Obama had 'destroyed' the economy in just six months (lol) - and he said to me (paraphrase): "all a person has to do is vaguely associate a bunch of disparate ideas and you will get a whole group of people to start nodding their heads and saying 'that's right, that's right. this is because of that' "...and I added, "because they want to think that it's true." It seems there is no need for anyone to bother making these associations themselves anymore, pondering them, weighing them because there are as many ways of learning them as there are 'FW: Obama' emails circulating out there. Everybody does it - you see it on the left, too, I'm not trying to make this totally one-sided - but it is spiraling out of control on the right at this time - anything, anything at all to justify the belief that the sky is indeed falling is being taken at face value. And it is frightening because it is only six months into the Obama presidency and the level of drama and hyperbole is already nearing the red.

I haven't seen too much of this guy, Glenn Beck, so I will abstain from making a purely political critique about him and stick with the much more relevant (and satisfying) observation that there is one thing he is guilty of for sure: bad television.

that tea party rally video is hilarious. obviously the guy cherry-picked the dumbest and most ignorant of the bunch, but you can't write something that funny

I just wanted to come back and say one more thing that I remembered while I was scrubbing my shower...the most ironic part of this all is - the right already won. You won, you fools, dance! If you really exist under the assumption that this country is heading toward 'socialism' (lol) under the Obama administration or that the primary aim of any US administration is not to keep YOU barefoot and pregnant (so to speak) then you're just silly. Silly, silly people. :)

Damn that video is funny... The interviewer did a really good job.

domestic terrorists? does that include me?

seriously folks, what is it that you refuse to see about these groups of people? sure, some of them are out there just for the partisanship, but a larger portion of these folks are angry and tired about not being represented. These are folks who aren't left or right, but somewhere in there and their views and concerns are being totally ignored.

The major political parties are making a huge mistake thinking these people are just on the fringe.

---------- Post added at 10:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 AM ----------

I'd be stepping lightly on the basis that you think you're speaking for all centrists. As I said earlier, most of these people out there are not dyed in the wool republicans. They are middle america 'centrists' who have been largely ignored by their elected representatives in the interests of corporate lobbying.

I don't see why this thread is shaping up to be about what right-winger protesters do vs. left-winger protesters. Or what right-winger extremists do vs. their left-winger counterparts. I don't see why we need to talk about what values and reactions are held by centrists.

Isn't this thread really about misinformed/ignorant reactionaries?

I don't really follow when you say that these people aren't being represented. They don't even know what they WANT or what is best for the country. They are confused, dumb, uninformed and fanatic. However, for all that, they DO have politicians in their corner. They have Bobby Jindal and Sarah Palin. They have talk show hosts and an entire cable news network. These people are represented far more than people on the other end of the political spectrum. Politicians wont touch drug and sex legalization with a ten foot pole, but they'll shoot down a needed healthcare bill simply because it runs up against the party line.

Their views and concerns aren't even based on reality, but I contend that despite this, they are NOT being ignored. They are, in fact, being given too much play time in the national discourse.

The reason this entire video needs to be disregarded is because it came from the Michael Moore school of Documentaries. It is obvious that the producer hand picked the interviewees, and then hand picked the responses for the purpose of making "everyone" at the rally look like these people. Clearly, based on this thread (with the exception of Derwood) - all of you fell into his trap.

I really have yet to hear something sane come out of ANY "tea bagger's" mouth. I have a feeling you'd be hard-pressed to find a rational concern in any of the interviews that were left out.

and this doesn't help soften any of the anger out there. whether you THINK they are dumb and uninformed or they actually are is irrelevant.

once again, the majority of these protesters are not dyed in the wool righties. They are middle road americans (this comprises a variety of slightly left and rights) and they are NOT being represented. Just because they have a congressperson for their district does not mean that their best interests are being represented. This is what part of their anger is about.

so your contention is that because they are just plain stupid, that they should be ignored. they should just shut up and let those in power do what they think is best for them. really good idea there. That's sure to ease a lot of hostility.

This is absolutely the truth.

---------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

How do you know the majority of the protestors are middle of the road Americans? What is a middle of the road American in your estimation?

Is it just me, or does Glenn Beck's "special message from high above Times Square" look suspiciously like it was shot in front of a green screen?

I also don't get why so many are fighting tooth and nail against universal healthcare, but I reckon that's your mess to sort out.

dk, YES, because they are stupid, they should be ignored. Democracy functions on informed debate, but these people are not informed with anything resembling truth or reason. The rest of your statement, however, is entirely your words, not mine. My solution is to inform them, to separate them from their corrupted infotainment source and to rebuild their viewpoints using reasoned logic and substantiated facts. Only then can they enter the national discourse with any air of respectability.

Yes, but perhaps more like the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm a middle of the road American, having neither unyielding conservative principles nor unwavering liberal principles. Having somewhat close acquaintances involved with the TEA organizers on a grassroots level, I have alot in common with these people. Most of those people aren't much different than I am.

---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

and you, Halx, will be one of the reasons why the further slide down to violent outbursts will occur. It will get uglier and it will get violent because you wish to ignore these people. Again, they are not only not being represented, but they are also being ignored. A volatile mix for people in this country that are armed.

Most of the centrists in this country hardly share your libertarian views which might explain why libertarians have never had wide spread popular support.

Much of the participation in these theatrical events is at the urging of the right wing talking heads or the sponsorship of right wing advocacy organizations. These, for the most part, are not spontaneous events. They are orchestrated, promoted, organized and funded by the right.

Dude, I think I spoke fairly clearly by explaining that these people are largely represented. In fact they are OVER-represented. They are just pissed off because their side is losing despite it all. Boo fucking hoo. Maybe if they learned what the issues REALLY were and how they are affected by them before they started to rally, we'd have more to discuss than the fact that they're batshit crazy.

They aren't rallying because they're under-represented, they are rallying because they have been coaxed into a frenzy by their representatives.

As for me and my contribution to their violent outbursts, I laugh at that. What a misdirection! Somehow I am to blame for someone else's delinquency! I'm not ignoring them - I can't ignore them. I watched the whole video. I try to get as much as this shit as I can. I've done the opposite of ignoring them. I've considered their viewpoint and what it means.

And it is shit. Complete and utter shit.

You missed what I posted then.

And you apparently misjudge me (and possibly others) if you assume that I (or others) couldn't tell the interviewer was using the same select people in this clip.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. But let's drop the tired metaphors. What are you saying? I'm not sure what you're saying, nor am I certain to whom (or of whom) you're speaking.

fuck it, again. you guys are right and i'm wrong as usual because i'm a Libertarian or some stupid shit while you 'progressives' have all the answers.

no warning goes heeded. no advice gets taken. y'all think you got it handled by ignoring or disrespecting a whole group for the thoughts and/or ideas of a few.

far be it from me to impede your efforts at ostracizing other americans who aren't as smart as you guys are.

---------- Post added at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------

no again. you THINK these people are largely represented because you NEED to believe that it's all being orchestrated by fox news, glen beck, and rush limbaugh. you couldn't be farther from the truth. Those organizations might be the providing vehicle, but they do not represent the views of all of those people. something you refuse to see I guess.

how long have most of you 'progressives' dismissed my issues out of hand and why? you guys really need to shake yourselves out of the snowglobe you've stuck yourselves in to preserve your version of reality. You're going to get a rude awakening soon if you don't.

dk...I am not saying you are wrong because you are a Libertarian, but simply that Libertarians are not representative of those in the center. No election, at any time, would suggest otherwise.

Centrists, for the most part, see the value of the role of government in many programs from which they (or someone they know) benefit and simply want efficient government, not less government.

This sign, the most prominent at the recent event, is not an impulse sign, hand written by a concerned citizen.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/.a/6a00d834...0be4970b-800wi

It is an organized and orchestrated message from insurance industry (and other) special interest groups opposed to health care reform.

How about this:

Dear Washington,

This year, you spent 1,600,000,000,000 more dollars than you collected...and that is only this year's debt. It's money that I am going to have to pay back, with interest. Stop doing it, I'm done saying "please". It's the essence of the argument and it's perfectly rational.

ELF should be held responsible for all the lives they've claimed.... err I mean the property they've destroyed. Regarding the "anti-abortion protester", turns out that wasn't actually the case. The gunman, Harlan Drake, had a grudge against the second victim (who wasn't a pro-life protester) and the protester just got caught in the gunfire.
It's funny how that commentary didn't really include common and overt death threats. And it's funny that we never saw pro-life folks getting gunned down in church or nazi museums being shot up.
I'm not aware of you making specific death threats, spreading the hateful propaganda of Glenn Beck, or murdering people. In fact, I'd say that the only time that you'd ever open fire on someone is if they were clearly trying to kill you. You're a libertarian, and you're a part of gun culture, but you're not one of these teabaggers. You're probably like the other conservatives I know that were excited about the tea party movement at first, but as soon as you realized that it was being organized by Fox News and most of the people attending were morons, you decided that it was a good idea gone very, very bad.
They are being represented. They all have congressional and senate representation, and they all had the opportunity to vote in the last presidential election. That's governmental representation.

Anyway, you hear what they're saying in the video. And don't pretend that's just the fringe of the movement. Can you blame people for ignoring them? They think the Czars have executive power, for christ's sake. That's intentional ignorance.

Sorry, but imagine debate class in school. If you have one student in favor or, say, health care reform, who presents his arguments with facts, examples, statistics, and turns it into a coherent case, of course people will pay attention, and they'll have something to respond to.
If the opponent's response is something to the tune of "but the reform will entail death panels!" or "everything done by the current President is communism!" without backing it up, he's gonna get ridiculed.

We're not ostracizing, it's just hard to listen to highly emotional, non-factual, hardly coherent babble, the only purpose of which is to make people angrier.

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 PM ----------

See, that's fine. It's also more coherently formulated than practically anything I've seen in the whole "movement."
I don't have a problem listening to people like you, who state valid concerns, it's the mass of ridiculous pre-made thoughts worded by pundits and copy-catted by protesters, via signs, chants, and blog posts that make me cringe.

Technically, this was the basis of the tea party movement. TEA - Taxed Enough Already. Many have jumped on the movement to air their grievances with the current federal government. These people march under the same banner, but their grievances are about a variety of different issues: environmental, death panels, illegal aliens, etc. They aren't really addressing or considering the core problem which is the realization that eventually borrowed money has to be paid back. The initial movement has always been about "We can't possibly pay for all of this!?!?"

And this is where I see hope for the conservative movement. If they controlled their message to reflect more reasonable concerns, especially fiscal concerns, they would appear, whether now or in 2012, as those who were reasonable on spending, and depending on how un/successful the Obama cabinet was, be the ones who were "right."

Unfortunately, they apparently have no control over their message, or they don't want control, and would rather have anger displayed throughout. While it's a great way to rally more people, and make crowds, it distorts the message so much that nobody wants to listen to the incoherent brouhaha...especially when only the most violent, hateful stuff is what seems to be most prominent.

Really, how can you look at such an unreasoned, unthinking opinion and attribute it to anything other than misinformation? If this was a grassroots movement, we'd at least be able to detect some sort of passion out of these people instead of:

1: Lies
2: Truth
1: Oh... I didn't know that.

These people are pawns.

A republican could run on the "fiscally conservative" platform, but it would be so easily destroyed by the opposition that it wouldn't work. the GOP controlled White House and Congress started us down this path of debt and deficit, and no amount of attempts to rewrite history will make that go away.

you reap what you sow.
conservatives opened themselves up to the far right during the clinton period. the discourse of the populist set drifted well into that region. if you think about it, there's not a whole lot that holds together the defacto coalition of far right groups. this leaves the conservative machine with little space to manoever.
add to that the consequences of conservatives actually holding power for 8 years prior to this, and i think the incoherent, paranoid memes that shape the anti-healthcare crowd at least becomes explainable.

basically, in my more optimistic moments, i agree with what dc said earlier: we are watching the right eat itself.
in my less optimistic moments, i find this whole display a pathetic commentary on what american consumer "democracy" has become.

The problem is that there is a large and significant intersection between the tea party movement and the republican party.

It is simply impossible to enact tax cuts without cutting spending on some pretty popular programs, and as such, there is a dilemma of how can one push for tax cuts without harming one's chances in major elections by proposing cuts in popular programs. That is where a lot of the red meat of these protests comes in. As they can't say "cut military spending, medicare, education and social security," they come up with these convenient scapegoats as targets of their collective frustrations. "it's the illegal immigrants," "it's the pork," "it's the welfare queens," "it's money for the damn foreigners," when none of these things, even when taken together, are enough to make up for the deficits...

Whenever I see tea party folks, I can't help but conjure the term "rabble rousers". Which, in my twisted mind, immediately turns to food.

http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w...amburglar1.jpg

mmmmmm, delicious self-righteous anger....

Exactly which WH and Congress are you referring to?

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/kidsign.jpg
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/kidwithsign.jpg
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/obamahitler.jpg
Thesaurus: Moron

I actually have to agree with you twice in one week. Our society has fallen prey to an unsustainable consumption of all new things. The debt levels that we carry because of our lack of discipline is a major contributor to our overall economic condition. Few who ask for fiscal resposibility from the government actually practice it at a personal level. In another thread, someone suggested talking to your grandparents about something or other - go talk to them about how they feel about your $10,000 in credit card debt.

I see a bunch of people who are very scared and lashing out. We were told by President Bush and his advisors that we were on the brink of another great depression and must spend billions to bail out Wall Street. We are told by President Obama that because of the irresponsible behavior of the bankers we must spend billions more to avoid catastrophe. Also that without health care reform the country will soon go broke.

President Obama is an easy target for many of those angry people. To many he is not really one of us. He is black and has a Muslim name. I believe this too frightens many to extreme rhetoric and yes racism has something to do with it.

I think my favorite part of the video was the part about the czars.

Mine was: "And you know this how?"

These people are clearly not being ignored. They are being covered quite well by the media in both the townhall meetings and this rally. There comes a time when you have presented the truth, argued the facts in a clear way, and if people still refuse to believe reality that is their fault and the rest of the country must move on without them.

a very bad strategy that is destined to end up bloody.

You know what'd be nice? If the libertarians took the tea parties back from the moonbats. If some morons were protesting at anti-war protests in my area getting all their facts wrong (and some really did), you better believe I'd be out there immediately so that they don't damage the overall movement.

What would you suggest? How can you help someone see reason when they are being willfully ignorant? You can only clearly prove something to someone so many times before you throw up your hands and say your on your own.

10 Lessons for Tea Baggers | Crooks and Liars

I found this to be interesting

a bunch of us are trying to, but even then, the others do have legitimate issues even though they've signed on to the fomenters.

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yeah, i'm very familiar with that feeling myself.

This argument is astounding. Let me get this straight: Unless we take these raving lunatics seriously, there will probably be some violent uprising? How is taking them serious even possible? Do you understand what I am asking? These people don't even know that they have what they want because all they see is a black man giving it to them.

DK I think the biggest problem with your argument right now is that you are assuming these protesters are middle of the road and make up a significant number of middle of the road people.

I disagree with this and I believe that these people are generally far right and their views do not accurately represent the majority of this country. Almost every poll I have seen says that a majority (and in many cases a large majority) of Americans support a public option.

You didn't answer my question. Every argument these people have has been PROVEN wrong at every turn, yet they still keep at it. What is your solution if not to ignore them?

you mentioned about a wasted argument before, correct? how is it that I should bother getting you to understand that all of the dumber people you are seeing on these videos are handpicked by people intent on denigrating the rest of the group who ARE smart and have other serious concerns?

and yes, i'm telling you that if you don't take these people seriously, even as stupid as they may seem to you, there will be violence. you can only push people so far before they strike back. It doesn't take a whole lot of pushing for some people.

Maybe if the libertarians could just agree that the godwins, death threats, "nazi=communist=socialist=fascist" bullshit, and racist elements (including birthers) have to go. I not only could live with that, but I'd be happy to help.

and i've seen a number of polls that say the opposite. polls are useless.

what i'm talking about are the bigger issues of what this will do in the long run. These people are scared because there is nothing to measure the failure or success of such a costly move. You're talking about putting something that has been a bedrock of their existence and shoving a wedge through it with no guarantee of success. The cost of failure though can be completely devestating.

most of these people do not want this rushed through for varied reasons, but using the current democrat tactics of 'no time to waste' and 'people will die if we don't' are only entrenching them in their positions.

forcing that kind of change on people when they are either not ready, not accepting, or just plain against it is a recipe for disaster.

also, the cries of this being in any way about racism are sure to continue pissing the ones off who, at this point, are only concerned about the cost of this plan. continuing with the racist banner is only going to move those particular individuals squarely in the 'we'll oppose anything' camp. Then you'll have a bigger problem.

So, dk, what are your reactions to the link I posted that argued against the many points that the tea baggers rally around?

Your still not answering my question. I get it that the absolute nutjobs don't represent everyone. But the majority of people who oppose this president do so based on factually incorrect information, provided to them from the becks and other morons of the fox new agency. When someone will not see reason even when you prove them wrong what are you to do? These nutjobs, even though armed, post absolutely no threat what so ever. Do you really think there will be an armed revolution? If so I feel very sorry for those that take up the cause because according to you only a very few actually believe this stuff.

One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place.

Are you suggesting that Glenn Beck should shoot himself?

This question has been asked and answered by many people on both sides.
I get it that the absolute nutjobs don't represent everyone. But the majority of people who oppose this president do so based on factually incorrect information, provided to them from the becks and other morons of the fox new agency. When someone will not see reason even when you prove them wrong what are you to do?
both sides present 'facts' and information that the other side then 'proves' is wrong, a lie, intellectually dishonest, etc. These majority people I'm talking about do not care anymore about what 'facts' and information gets provided. They are tired of listening to pundits talk down to them with a glib explanation that takes a 1,000+ page bill and believes that in two sentences it can be explained to the citizenry at large. These majority people do not want to hear any more about how complicated these things are to fix and that they take an extraordinary amount of changes at once to do so. Forcing that anyway is a sure recipe for armed revolt.

I am one of those 'armed nutjobs' rahl, and hell yes there will be an armed revolution if this shit gets rammed down the throats of people who refuse to accept this monstrosity of change. If health reform is something you people want to see happen (and yes, these majority folks also want to see it done in a more sensible way) then you will heed their words and warnings and deal with this issue piecemeal fashion starting with the most essential parts first. Otherwise, you will see violent episodes which will escalate. Will the body count be worth the price to you?

Halx, I will respond shortly to your links as soon as I get a few minutes to sit and read them.

Exchanges like the following seem to be too far over the top for intelligent debate:

History is a stubborn, pesky thing. The Left is now furious that, as the new establishment, the rules of discourse are not more polite. But from 2002-8, they (Who are “they”? Try everyone from Al Gore to John Glen to Robert Byrd to Sen. Durbin), employed every Nazi/brown shirt slur they could conjure up. NPR’s folksy old Garrison Keiler was indistinguishable from mean-spirited Michael Moore in that regard. The New York Times gave a discount for a disgusting “General Betray Us” ad. The Democratic Party head Howard Dean flatly said he “hated” Republicans. Hilary Clinton all but called Gen. Petraeus a liar in a congressional hearing. The New Republic ran an essay on hating George Bush (not opposing, not disliking, but “hating” the President). Alfred Knopf published a novel about killing Bush. A Guardian op-ed dreamed of Lee Harvey Oswald and John Wilkes Booth coming back to kill Bush. And on and on. No one objected.

And then something strange and quite unexpected happened. The Democrats nominated a charismatic African-American, won the presidency, after obtaining large majorities in Congress, and suddenly became the Establishment, demanding respect for the Commander in Chief in direct proportion to their efforts to deny respect to his predecessor.

Then just as suddenly two tropes appeared after January 20th of this year:
One—cannot we all get along? We deplore this resort to barbarism and crudity.
Two—if you dare sound off like we just did, then you are now a racist or a terrorist.

Obama said that he wanted a sort of end to the acrimony. But once he was elected, we got Eric Holder slurring the nation, the President slurring the police, the environmental jobs czar slurring almost everyone, and a host of satellites like Charles Rangel and Diane Watson leveling charges of racism.

Not So Fast
The problem is that the public is not really stupid and has a long memory. It hates hypocrisy as much as it does crudity. Part of Obama’s decline is precisely because of this sudden disingenuousness in which one rises to the top on hardball, Chicago politics and playing identity politics (remember Rev. Wright, Ayers, “typical white people”, clingers, etc.), and then of course wants an end to the crudity (like hoping the music stops only when you have grabbed that last chair).


And now for a trip down memory lane:

There's one major difference, though: even though godwin's are bad form regardless of circumstances, I can back up the comparison between the last 8 years of Amercain politics and the Nazis much better than any teabegger can between the last 9 months and the Nazis. Is it a direct comparison? Shit no. Still, a comparison including things like the suspension of rights after a terrorist attack, military expansionism, lying to the public in order to support a war, and silencing decent do speak to at least a relative comparison.

BTW, how many anti-war leftists turned to murder and domestic terrorism to protest against Bush?

Im not going to get into the whole "who has more extremists" thing, but I will say that there can be no comparison between opposing Bush and Obama. The day Obama starts a war under false pretenses that leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people we can start comparing reactions. until then, I refuse to play equivalence games with non equivalent things.

Stay classy, GOP.

Douchebags.

Halx, here are my views on it. I'm pretty sure they don't match what you think of the 'baggers', but I believe most are pretty representative of the majority of TEA protesters.

President Obama Cut Your Taxes

yes, and then they raised taxes on several common use products to make up for it. it can hardly be called a tax cut if the end user has to pay more for the products they consume due to those taxes being raised. That is what we call intellectual dishonesty, or in other words, smoke and mirrors.

jump starting GDP is another smoke and mirrors because the government does not produce. it only consumes and it is pure deception to the tax payer who ends up paying for this 'jump start'. It is also impossible to 'preserve jobs' and then be able to prove it. That's about as bad as saying that the patriot act and torture worked because we haven't been attacked since 9/11. Creating 60,000 government jobs does nothing for long term economy because those of us not working in the government sector have to pay the salaries of those who are. If the unemployment rate is rising, eventually the federal budget is going to implode and all of those newly created gov jobs are going to vanish.


The Stimulus is Working

pumping billions of dollars in to state coffers, allowing state legislatures to have their own pet projects, is another long term disaster. It has two effects: increases our overall debt which still has to be repaid, and it only teaches the states that in dire circumstances they can get bailed out by the feds. Both will be economic disasters.


First Reagan Tripled the National Debt..
Then Bush Doubled It Again

no argument from me here, but why can't we learn from history? deficit spending doesn't work, never has, never will. 'trickle down' should have been called 'trickle up'. That's all it did.



Republican States Have the Worst Health Care
This has more to do with the stranglehold that the insurance industries have on these states and is not indicative of the quality of health care. This should be one of the issues I talked about dealing with first and foremost. remove the power of the insurance industries. You can't do that by requiring insurance be maintained by americans. It only feeds the insurance company coffers.


Medicare is a Government Program

This goes back to what I said about the massive change. Medicare wasn't something that was widely supported when it was brought up, but the same way that social security was adapted and instituted as an entitlement, so was medicare. My grandmother is on medicare and my wife is soon to be on it as well. I've seen how my grandmothers health care has been handled and i'm not looking forward to seeing it happen to my wife. I'm not fond of it happening to me either. Again, massive change is not good, even if you think it is. All it does is throw peoples lives and realities in upheaval.


Barack Obama is Not a Muslim

non debatable on my part. another useless argument because some people will believe what they are going to believe. kind of like 'well regulated militia' means the national guard. I'll get better results banging my skull in to a brick wall. It's also just one more thing that alienates the majority of mainstreamers on the conservative side, by lumping them all in to the same category of batshit insane. not a smart move.


70,000 Does Not Equal 2,000,000

I wasn't there so I can't say for certain. I've heard about the fake picture from another event and i've heard the estimate of numbers. If that's more important to you than the actual emotions held, not just by those there, but the others that feel the same way who couldn't be there (and you can count me in on the group that wanted to be there but couldn't) then you're making the very mistake I told you others were making.....ignoring them and their non representation.


The Economy Almost Always Does Better Under Democrats

this may be, but if it is then they are also unsustainable as well. Every economic boom by a democrat has been followed by a burst bubble. I'll grant you, though, that it doesn't do great under republicans either. The one true thing that eludes alot of partisans on both sides is that your politicians are in almost all ways beholden to corporatism. They will look out for their money first and foremost. Republicans and Democrats alike. If you choose to ignore that fact, then there really isn't an issue about debating facts and reality as much as it is just pressing an ideological agenda. something I really want no part of.

Halx... I was totally going to post that. I would quote it too... but I can't even quote a link. :P

I read this earlier and was just about to post it. It is crazy. While I think it is extremely hyperbolic for either side to call either side terrorists, I think it can be said that there are in fact some extremely mis-informed people out there. The idea that this country would ever fall into a fascist/communist/socialist state is ludicrous. These people whine, and yet they enjoy plenty of services that they themselves would consider "socialist." I went to a town hall a few weeks ago and talked to one of these people. Essentially anything the government is socialism: the FCC, municipal water, road construction, the DMV, fire departments, police services, etc. It was almost like he was advocating anarchy--what should a government do if all of these things are socialist. ESPECIALLY, Social Security and Medicare which I guarentee a large percentage of these people are drawing. Do they realize that a "socialism" is paying for their medical costs?

I can understand many of these people's points about too much government spending, and I agree. But lets not forget who started that trend--Reagan tripled the debt and Bush doubled it. I believe we should take care of our own citizens, a la healthcare, and quit taking care of the rest of the worlds, a la aid to Israel, Wars, etc. In fact, Bin Laden recently released a tape re-stating why it was America was attacked on 9/11--they guy seems pretty reasonable, terrorist or not.

That can be found here at Yahoo news. It's called "Bin Laden reportedly calls Obama 'powerless'"

Wow, I wish I had 15 posts. Lol. This is ridiculous... I can't even quote something with a link in it. So much for promoting discussion.

[

I am one of those 'armed nutjobs' rahl, and hell yes there will be an armed revolution if this shit gets rammed down the throats of people who refuse to accept this monstrosity of change. If health reform is something you people want to see happen (and yes, these majority folks also want to see it done in a more sensible way) then you will heed their words and warnings and deal with this issue piecemeal fashion starting with the most essential parts first. Otherwise, you will see violent episodes which will escalate. Will the body count be worth the price to you?

Halx, I will respond shortly to your links as soon as I get a few minutes to sit and read them.[/QUOTE]

I am also armed(though not a self proclaimed nutjob) and I refuse to be intimidated by people who wish to throw a tantrum because they don't like the fact that their party is no longer in power, and who do not understand what it is they are protesting. If there is a violent revolution ( I'd any price you could name there won't be) I honestly feel bad for the few thousand morons who would end up getting killed for no reason at all, other than the becks and such telling them they have a duty to rebel.

Yeah, that revolution would be over in all of 9 minutes.

you're still not getting it. why?

---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------

how's that 'solid' ground you're on? :rolleyes:

It's the same ground I stood on when guns were being taken from warm, living hands during Katrina. It's the same ground I was standing on when the Branch Davidians were massacred. It's the same ground I stood on when during the attack on Ruby Ridge. It's the same ground I've been on when words of reprisal were tested and found wanting.

Historical precedent tells us the revolution would be an individual or small band of people and that person or band would likely be massacred by agents of some federal agency rather quickly. People would be very angry, and post it on their blogs or on forums but most of the country would simply move on after a few months.

[QUOTE=dksuddeth;2703918]you're still not getting it. why?[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]

---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------




Explain it to me.

People starting an armed revolution about something they don't understand, or refuse to see the truth?

people fighting back because of things they do not understand or fear. it's really very simple.

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

will, do you believe that i'm part of the 'gun culture'?

do you believe that i'm also part of the three percenters or oath keepers? (look it up if you need to)

I've been part of the gun rights group for several years now. i'm in pretty much the thick of it, at least in TX. I hear the anger, the complaints, the resentment, but most of all I can hear the high pitched whistle of the steam trying to escape the boiling pot. it's ready to blow my friend and it will be more than just 90 people next time.

More protests from lefties (i.e., reasonable, nuanced, and tasteful):

[QUOTE=dksuddeth;2703963]people fighting back because of things they do not understand or fear. it's really very simple.[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

And my question is what do you suggest to be done about it. We certainly can't bow down to a very deranged minority just because they have some misguided grievence not based in reality. Nor can we bow down to them just because they are armed.

I'm also armed, I've been a lifetime member of the NRA for 26 Years. And it's morons like this that gives the rest of the gun owning population such a bad name.

Sure.
You may be, I don't know.
It will probably be a lot less. I'd be willing to bet we'll see a few more isolated shootings at best, or a single act of medium to large scale terrorism perpetrated by a few individuals at most. As worked up as the "OMG OBAMAZ A NAZI" people are, they're waaaaay too comfortable to do anything stupid/brave.

Look at the pre-Revolutionary War for an example of an environment ripe for real revolution. Look for taxation without representation (the real version, not the moron version). Look for commonplace massacres of unarmed civilians. Look at people's daily lives being fundamentally changed for the worse across the board. Aside from the economy, which only a complete fool could attribute to President Obama, we're not even in the same solar system as that kind of civil unrest. What we have now are tools watching Fox News and being fearful and angry on command like golden retrievers.

an armed revolution (against who, exactly?) over an issue like insuring American citizens would rank awfully high on the "most retarded things ever" list.

I suspect it's just "teh gubbimit!"

Do the more conservative members of this board notice how quick Derwood, Will and others are so quick to pigeon hole right leaning members?

"The gubbmiment" and "armed revolution" posts. So you attribute a ridiculous opinion to us and then claim how we're so irrational. Go figure. :rolleyes:

Kir, is it merely polar political leanings by association with some kind of cookie cutter Extreme-Oh! brand?

I mean... I'm a pro-abortion, universal-healthcare, fuck-the-states "liberal" in many respects... but then I own these gnarly black things that go bang.

I'm pretty sure there are "conservatives" that don't like guns. I just can't think of any...

...

Every time DK talks... he makes me want to sell my firearms and start collecting stamps. It starts out reasonable then suddenly gets all Red Dawn.
...

And no overthrowing the government until I finish my degree. I'm too busy right now.

/Tilted Politics? What was I thinking?

Does everyone notice what KirStang is doing? By posting that I am relating DK or other conservative TFPers to the nutballs at the tea party/9/12 protests, he's committing a strawman fallacy, as well as a red herring.

I never said that any of the conservatives on TFP were of the type that might be these fools at the faux-protests. In fact, I even said in #44 that DK was not one of these crazies.

What if DK is a "nutball," though?

...

I think you were simply placating in #44.

I don't think DK thinks that President Obama is a Nazi or a communist. I don't think that DK thinks the brownshirt Obama Youth will eventually become a US version of the Nazi SS. I know DK doesn't think President Obama was born in Kenya. I'm virtually certain that DK understands just as well as anyone the role of the czars, and that they have no executive power whatsoever. I'm pretty sure DK thinks Beck is a nut job, just like I do.

We happen to have a differing ideology relating to the Second Amendment and we have a different opinion regarding what an armed revolution in the US would look like and how likely it might be.

Otto and I generally agree on the crazy people on the video, too. And Samcol. And Aladdin Sane. And Ace. And every other TFP conservative I'm familiar with.

Forgive me, I'm just going to paste this here. It makes the necessary point about potential rebellion so I see no reason in repeating it on my own...

Third Party & Independents: Ignorant Blood Will Water The Tree Of Liberty

This comment on that page is also a worthwhile point:

I don't care who started this. I don't care if it was the left or the right that dragged the public discourse down to the level of the gutter. Both ends of the political spectrum have come up with new ways of being ignorant. The problem is, these fringe elements are getting more and more attention. Where is the voice of the middle in all of this? I realize that voice is not a ratings grabber and doesn't sell newspapers but really...

I've said it before, the US is facing some very tough times and they need to get their shit together.