Caerus

Anyways, *sigh* I do not understand these people. Anyone care to discuss? I mean, if there was even some semblance of logic on the right, I would totally follow it. But frankly, all I see is some corporate greed and disillusioned Americans who are fed some nonsense--out of fear. What do I know, though? Right?

Willravel

FYI, [YOUTUBE]what appears after "watch?v="["slash"YOUTUBE]

They're fucking stupid, and many of them are armed. If they were benign, I wouldn't care, but many of them are turning to domestic terrorism. Basically, the instigating figures—Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, that Savage guy no one on the left talks about for some reason, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, and the few others—need to be held legally responsible for inciting violence right along with the wingnuts that carry it out.

The best thing we can all do, though, is talk to our grandparents. I know they're old, smell funny, and we're never quite sure if they bathe, but they're the ones losing their minds. Go over to the house, program the remote, and calmly and politely work into the conversation that the public option is simply Medicare for the rest of us.

samcol

Domestic terrorists... really? I mean there were thousands if not hundreds of thousands or more there without any major acts of violence. How is that terrorism? Seem pretty absurd to me.

Can someone re-link the vid I can't even view it. I'm guessing there's something crazy like planes crashing into buildings or bombs going off from this post...

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Redlemon

Here's the link...


...and I bow back out of the thread.
(Caerus, that post limit helps keep down the spam. It's a necessary evil.)

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Willravel

Yes. Maybe you remember a holocaust museum being shot up? Or a doctor that performed abortions being shot? Or a "liberal" church getting shot up? Maybe you remember people showing up to town halls not just armed, but armed and making death threats? Maybe you've heard of the pastor that's giving people permission to kill the president?

BTW, what did the Holocaust museum shooter and the Tiller murder have in common? It rhymes with Box Bews. What organization is behind the 9/12 and tea party movements? It rhymes with Jox Jews.
There were 70,000 at most, and I didn't say they were guilty of domestic terrorism. I said some of them (them clearly meaning those of the ilk of the 9/12 protesters and tea partiers) are turning to domestic terrorism. And several of them are.

For comparative purposes, how many anti-war leftists turned to murder and domestic terrorism to protest against Bush?

dc_dux

Domestic terrorists is a stretch but many of those with the more inflammatory signs and comments being viewed as outside the mainstream is not a stretch. Those signs and vids have some Republicans worried about backlash.

The numbers, by most reputable reports, between 50-75K. A very respectable number. The claim by organizers and some conservative bloggers of more than 1 million is laughable, as are the fake pics from rallies past.

"Tea party" photo shows huge crowd — at different event"

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samcol

To include a few wackos in a march of tens of thousands is pretty asinine. I'm not saying the people here had the greatest points to make, but they weren't terrorists plain and simple.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Willravel

How many of them carried with them messages of not just hate but death threats? At the San Jose tea party back in April there were a dozen "tree of liberty" quotes, suggesting that the president had to die. That message has not disappeared, but increased since then. It's one of the memes.

dc_dux

The signs are intimidating as they are meant to be and ignorant as they are not meant to be...and in both cases, have little appeal to main stream centrists who decide elections.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

timalkin

..

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dc_dux

That may or may not be the case, but the difference being....youtube!

Those vids are gonna come back and bite Republicans on the ass.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
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Baraka_Guru

A special message from Glenn Beck:


It's difficult to take any of these people seriously.

It's only a select few, right?

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Willravel

How many anti-war leftists turned to murder and domestic terrorism to protest against Bush?
How many anti-war leftists turned to murder and domestic terrorism to protest against Bush?

samcol

Umm let me guess: zero? I don't even understand why you are harping on this. The
protesters do not equal the crazys you are referring too. No one is condoning these acts of violence.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Willravel

I'm not talking about condoning after the fact, I'm talking about providing an environment that fosters and even accepts these extremists. Of those 70,000 or less people, I doubt many of them are crazy enough to commit acts of terrorism, but every time you see a death threat or an instance of massive, godwin hyperbole, you're seeing an environment that fosters violent extremism. Do you think it's a coincidence that these terrorists watch Beck and BillO and such?

boink

it's definitely ramping up here. and c'mon man, if 2-3 wackos in Iraq constitutes terrorism, why not in the US ? if you had your place of work/worship or clinic shot up what would you call it ?

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ottopilot

For that matter, which MSNBC, Air America (etc....) personality should we blame for the terrorist actions of ELF and the guy who just recently gunned down an anti-abortion protester in front of a school? You're going to find crazies in any demography. Was anything extreme ever said or done regarding Bush? I bet you could find some pretty disturbing commentary regarding our last president right here in the archives of TFP. Let's try maintaining some perspective before demonizing a group of people that most (here) seem to know little about, and seem all too eager to jump on the "lets label them as terrorists" band-wagon.

---------- Post added at 06:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:51 AM ----------

What about his "special announcement" do you take issue with? The thing about building the towers back was in context with topics discussed earlier in the show... an emotional summary (sappy too) to wrap up his point. The part about juggling and monopoly money was a comedic advertisement segment to promote tomorrow's show... which some may actually try to watch before making uninformed commentary. But where's the fun in that? Righteous indignation is always gratifying and doesn't require actual facts... there's YouTube and Wikipedia to back you up!

---------- Post added at 06:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 AM ----------

Yes, there are some fine examples of Obama supporters out there too... do we really need to go there?

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dc_dux

Right. Candidates who blasted the airwaves with Rev Wright videos really benefited.

Centrists dont like personal attacks or disparaging the office of the president or blatant lies or even subtle threats...as are displayed in so many of those signs and expressed in so many of the videos.

They also dont like taking direction from guys like Beck and Limbaugh but its hilarious how so few Republican officials will condemn those guys for their misleading bullshit...or when they do, how they immediately backtrack when their base takes offense.

Seriously, how can any candidate please that extremist base and attract centrists/independents at the same time.....its mixing oil and water.

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Cimarron29414

Boy, you guys are in rare form. Knock yourselves out!

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Baraka_Guru

Yeah, for starters, there's this. It's a shameless appeal to emotions. Nice soundtrack.

I've seen Beck's use of "actual facts." I'm not going to watch the show for them. I'd rather seek them elsewhere....and save myself some time.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

KirStang

I guess leftists setting fires SUV dealerships aren't 'terrorists.'

Tully Mars

Umm, yes they are... so are guys that blow up federal buildings.

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mixedmedia

I couldn't get through but half of it...the lengths that people will go to to tell a story...and folks lap it up like manna from the gods.

my boyfriend, you know, he comes from a very conservative background and is fairly conservative himself (voted for McCain), although honestly he's more apolitical than anything (you won't catch him waxing frenetic about this shit like I do, lol). but he made an observation last night that I thought was pretty relevant in regards to items like this video. He received an email from his dad, a basic Obama-bashing piece of junkmail - a very lengthy, rambling one which opened with the observation that Obama had 'destroyed' the economy in just six months (lol) - and he said to me (paraphrase): "all a person has to do is vaguely associate a bunch of disparate ideas and you will get a whole group of people to start nodding their heads and saying 'that's right, that's right. this is because of that' "...and I added, "because they want to think that it's true." It seems there is no need for anyone to bother making these associations themselves anymore, pondering them, weighing them because there are as many ways of learning them as there are 'FW: Obama' emails circulating out there. Everybody does it - you see it on the left, too, I'm not trying to make this totally one-sided - but it is spiraling out of control on the right at this time - anything, anything at all to justify the belief that the sky is indeed falling is being taken at face value. And it is frightening because it is only six months into the Obama presidency and the level of drama and hyperbole is already nearing the red.

I haven't seen too much of this guy, Glenn Beck, so I will abstain from making a purely political critique about him and stick with the much more relevant (and satisfying) observation that there is one thing he is guilty of for sure: bad television.

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Derwood

that tea party rally video is hilarious. obviously the guy cherry-picked the dumbest and most ignorant of the bunch, but you can't write something that funny

mixedmedia

I just wanted to come back and say one more thing that I remembered while I was scrubbing my shower...the most ironic part of this all is - the right already won. You won, you fools, dance! If you really exist under the assumption that this country is heading toward 'socialism' (lol) under the Obama administration or that the primary aim of any US administration is not to keep YOU barefoot and pregnant (so to speak) then you're just silly. Silly, silly people.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Rekna

Damn that video is funny... The interviewer did a really good job.

dksuddeth

domestic terrorists? does that include me?

seriously folks, what is it that you refuse to see about these groups of people? sure, some of them are out there just for the partisanship, but a larger portion of these folks are angry and tired about not being represented. These are folks who aren't left or right, but somewhere in there and their views and concerns are being totally ignored.

The major political parties are making a huge mistake thinking these people are just on the fringe.

---------- Post added at 10:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 AM ----------

I'd be stepping lightly on the basis that you think you're speaking for all centrists. As I said earlier, most of these people out there are not dyed in the wool republicans. They are middle america 'centrists' who have been largely ignored by their elected representatives in the interests of corporate lobbying.

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Baraka_Guru

I don't see why this thread is shaping up to be about what right-winger protesters do vs. left-winger protesters. Or what right-winger extremists do vs. their left-winger counterparts. I don't see why we need to talk about what values and reactions are held by centrists.

Isn't this thread really about misinformed/ignorant reactionaries?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Halx

I don't really follow when you say that these people aren't being represented. They don't even know what they WANT or what is best for the country. They are confused, dumb, uninformed and fanatic. However, for all that, they DO have politicians in their corner. They have Bobby Jindal and Sarah Palin. They have talk show hosts and an entire cable news network. These people are represented far more than people on the other end of the political spectrum. Politicians wont touch drug and sex legalization with a ten foot pole, but they'll shoot down a needed healthcare bill simply because it runs up against the party line.

Their views and concerns aren't even based on reality, but I contend that despite this, they are NOT being ignored. They are, in fact, being given too much play time in the national discourse.

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Cimarron29414

The reason this entire video needs to be disregarded is because it came from the Michael Moore school of Documentaries. It is obvious that the producer hand picked the interviewees, and then hand picked the responses for the purpose of making "everyone" at the rally look like these people. Clearly, based on this thread (with the exception of Derwood) - all of you fell into his trap.

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"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Halx

I really have yet to hear something sane come out of ANY "tea bagger's" mouth. I have a feeling you'd be hard-pressed to find a rational concern in any of the interviews that were left out.

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dksuddeth

and this doesn't help soften any of the anger out there. whether you THINK they are dumb and uninformed or they actually are is irrelevant.

once again, the majority of these protesters are not dyed in the wool righties. They are middle road americans (this comprises a variety of slightly left and rights) and they are NOT being represented. Just because they have a congressperson for their district does not mean that their best interests are being represented. This is what part of their anger is about.

so your contention is that because they are just plain stupid, that they should be ignored. they should just shut up and let those in power do what they think is best for them. really good idea there. That's sure to ease a lot of hostility.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

mixedmedia

This is absolutely the truth.

---------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

How do you know the majority of the protestors are middle of the road Americans? What is a middle of the road American in your estimation?

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Martian

Is it just me, or does Glenn Beck's "special message from high above Times Square" look suspiciously like it was shot in front of a green screen?

I also don't get why so many are fighting tooth and nail against universal healthcare, but I reckon that's your mess to sort out.

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Halx

dk, YES, because they are stupid, they should be ignored. Democracy functions on informed debate, but these people are not informed with anything resembling truth or reason. The rest of your statement, however, is entirely your words, not mine. My solution is to inform them, to separate them from their corrupted infotainment source and to rebuild their viewpoints using reasoned logic and substantiated facts. Only then can they enter the national discourse with any air of respectability.

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ottopilot

Yes, but perhaps more like the pot calling the kettle black.

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dksuddeth

I'm a middle of the road American, having neither unyielding conservative principles nor unwavering liberal principles. Having somewhat close acquaintances involved with the TEA organizers on a grassroots level, I have alot in common with these people. Most of those people aren't much different than I am.

---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

and you, Halx, will be one of the reasons why the further slide down to violent outbursts will occur. It will get uglier and it will get violent because you wish to ignore these people. Again, they are not only not being represented, but they are also being ignored. A volatile mix for people in this country that are armed.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dc_dux

Most of the centrists in this country hardly share your libertarian views which might explain why libertarians have never had wide spread popular support.

Much of the participation in these theatrical events is at the urging of the right wing talking heads or the sponsorship of right wing advocacy organizations. These, for the most part, are not spontaneous events. They are orchestrated, promoted, organized and funded by the right.

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Halx

Dude, I think I spoke fairly clearly by explaining that these people are largely represented. In fact they are OVER-represented. They are just pissed off because their side is losing despite it all. Boo fucking hoo. Maybe if they learned what the issues REALLY were and how they are affected by them before they started to rally, we'd have more to discuss than the fact that they're batshit crazy.

They aren't rallying because they're under-represented, they are rallying because they have been coaxed into a frenzy by their representatives.

As for me and my contribution to their violent outbursts, I laugh at that. What a misdirection! Somehow I am to blame for someone else's delinquency! I'm not ignoring them - I can't ignore them. I watched the whole video. I try to get as much as this shit as I can. I've done the opposite of ignoring them. I've considered their viewpoint and what it means.

And it is shit. Complete and utter shit.

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Baraka_Guru

You missed what I posted then.

And you apparently misjudge me (and possibly others) if you assume that I (or others) couldn't tell the interviewer was using the same select people in this clip.

I think you're comparing apples to oranges. But let's drop the tired metaphors. What are you saying? I'm not sure what you're saying, nor am I certain to whom (or of whom) you're speaking.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot