Reparations
 

This thread could go in Philosophy or even General Discussion, so I leave it to a mod to move it if they see fit.

Normally on a message board, I wouldn't touch this issue with a 10 foot pole, but TFP has proven to be more civil and rational than other boards, so I will go ahead and broach the subject. A search revealed topics that touched upon the subject of reparations, but none that addressed it specifically.

For those that may need a definition of what reparations entail (although I'm sure that most TFPers already know), you can check out the Wikipedia entry here.

For the purposes of this thread, let's discuss the merit of reparations in and of itself, and not the implausibility of reparations given the current economic conditions.

It appears to me that the question of reparations comes down to this--are African Americans today owed financial compensation for atrocities committed generations before they were born? A person could easily conclude that the woes of the African American community, as a demographic, can be traced to the grudging, piecemeal compensation that has been doled out since emancipation; another person could conclude that most African Americans would not be Americans at all without slavery in the first place, and that they would be no better off if their forefathers had not been admittedly forced to become "Americans" via slavery (I'm playing devil's advocate here to make a point, folks).

Reparations by the American government are not without precedent. Japanese Americans have received reparations as a result of internment in detention camps during World War II, and Native Americans have been receiving reparations for land ceded to the US (not to mention European genocide of Native Americans); in addition, Native Americans are granted gaming privileges by the federal government, a very profitable source of income.

So, what does that mean in regards to reparations for the descendants of slavery? It's a difficult question. I have no problem conceding that the country was built in large part on slavery, and that the country owes it's rapid ascension to it's position as the most powerful nation in the world to slavery, and by extension, the slaves themselves. I can't, however, see a lump sum payment to the descendants of slavery being the answer to the problems that plague the African American community. Not only would the damage to race relations be unfathomable, but money without any real change in opportunities for African Americans is money that is gone in a generation with no lasting benefits. Or am I wrong? Can the problems of the African American community--drug use, crime, high unemployment rates--be remedied with an influx of wealth (I'm not saying these problems are exclusive to the African American community, only that, statistically, they are disproportionately high)?

I look forward to hearing your opinions.

I think it's a terrible idea. From a logistical point of view, it's pretty difficult to figure out exactly how much harm was incurred by a specific person. With (for instance) the Japanese internment camps, most of the victims were still alive, and it was relatively easy to quantify a value and be done with it. For Native Americans, it's somewhat less clear, but we could at least come up with a somewhat reasonable standard - although the situation we have now isn't exactly great, it's workable. For descendants of slaves, it seems to me to be a lot harder. The harm done by slavery and racism is at the same time both harder to quantify, and more widespread. Societal harm done to minority groups due to racism is still going on, after all. We're now in a situation where races are equal under the law, which is a pretty good first step.

I think affirmative action has it's place, although it has to be implemented judiciously - the argument of a better-qualified candidate being passed over 'because he was a white male' is hard to refute. Affirmative action should be 'sunsetted' in favor of policies which give people of any socioeconomic background opportunity to excel. Free or subsidized education, healthcare, child care, etc. are all ways of providing social mobility, as well as reducing suffering. Programs that are based on need rather than categories such as race are key here, IMNSHO. After all, if we agree that descendants of slaves are a harmed class of people, and therefore are, as a class, in more dire economic straits, then policies that help people based upon need will by their very nature help them more often than white folks.

Another issue is resentment - which is a powerful recruiting tool for racist organizations, unfortunately.

The African slave trade is one of the worst sins our country ever committed. It was a human rights violation of catastrophic scale. There's no statute of limitations on that kind of atrocity, regardless of how logistically difficult it might be to attempt reparations.

We could very easily provide way, way, way more scholarships for students that descended from slaves. We could very easily provide free job training for descendants of slaves. We could very easily not charge income taxes for descendants of slaves.

I figure fighing a war where one in four American was wounded in is enough of a payment. Also, black Americans enjoy the seventh best quality of life in the world, far better than any African nation. So in effect, reparations have already been paid.

So should the Germans make restitution to the Jews, Catholics, Communists and so on they killed during Hitler/

Should the Japanese make restitution to the Koreans?

Should the Egyptians make restitution to the Jews? You said there is no statute of limitations.

What about Spain for holding the Inquisition or for the way they treated the Indians when coming here?

This type of thinking makes no sense to me. I'm sorry, no one in my family even fucking owned slaves. Slavery was long dead by the time my German/Italian/Irish/Welsh forefathers got here and not one ever lived South or West of Ohio as far as I know.

I have tax dollars going to bail out banks that raise my fees and credit card rates, I have taxes going to pay for AIG executive bonuses (oops someone blabbed people got mad and Obama fixed that....:rolleyes:), I've got tax money going to help foreign countries that hate us and laughingly own our debt...... and you think we need to give more to African Americans because of slavery that we abolished some 140+ years ago??????? Are you fucking nuts?

We have an African American as president right now..... wtf higher glass ceiling is there? And people still want to say this is a racist country and we hold the black man down?

What reasoning is there for us to do more for ANY group of people over another?

Scholarships and financial aid should be totally blind to skin color or ethnic/religious/political etc backgrounds.

To give a people more simply because of a past that is OVER and done with is just creating far more problems than it will solve.

What? The white man has held down the black man in this country? We have had Supreme Court Justices, politicians, a President, governors, mayors, CEO's, and so on.

To say the white man has held them down, especially within the last 30 years, is an excuse for the way some have chosen to live. As long as there are groups allowing them that excuse there will always be some using it. Same with drug addicts, same with any group that uses excuses to live a life choice that they can get out of IF THEY FUCKING WORK HARD.

Try working in the poverty areas... I don't see oriental people claiming racism and hatred, I don't see whites doing it, I don't see Jews or pagans doing it... I see adult African Americans who do not get their way using it and doing so because they will benefit from it. IT'S BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!

Without a doubt in my mind, absolutely. Germany committed what has to be one of the worst crimes in the history of our entire species. It's likely one of the worst things in the history of our planet. Germany is responsible for Germany's actions. I'm glad we had the Nuremberg trials, they were a step in the right direction, but ask a holocaust survivor if seeing a few officers convicted was restitution en . ough.
Probably. I'm not as familiar with this as I am with WWII or black slavery in America.
Jews aren't a race. I suppose if you could track down the descendants of the Semitics and Hurrians, there might be a case, but those people haven't existed in thousands of years
It wasn't just the Spanish.
You are a part of a republic, as a citizen you take responsibility for your government. Your government didn't make reparations when it promised. Do you really think there should be a statute of limitations on slavery? Can you really defend that position besides with "oh, but I don't own slaves"?
The bailout has nothing to do with reparations. Also, get off Obama. They have nothing to do with this, they're just red herrings. This is an ethical question.
Barack Obama isn't descended from slaves. So, again, he has nothing to do with this.
Because this country screwed over an entire race for centuries and it didn't stop with the abolition of slavery. It's still fucking going on now.
That assumes everything else is fair. Since it's not, you can't force it by pretending an unlevel playing field is level.
You don't understand what it's like to be black in America and neither do I. That episode of South Park is right. We'll never get what it's like at all. What I do know is that as white people we don't have the right to say it's over.
You don't see anyone but black people complain, therefore only black people complain?

Also, not to nitpick, but oriental is not the preferred nomenclature.

Two quick things:

- How much $$$ is "enough" to repay the descendants of slaves?

- How do we determine who gets it? Proving direct lineage to slaves is shaky territory and seems wide open to being taken advantage of.

I don't think giving them money directly is a good idea. Instead I think spending money to help counter social problems that have developed due to slavery is a much better idea. I think we should start by improving the inner city schools to be more like the suburban schools.

You assume that the government actually wants the poor/minorities to better themselves

Well I want the poor/minorities to better themselves because I see intrinsic value in it that benefits all of society. The difference between a 3rd world country and the US is the number of people that are poor and uneducated. Since I am a voter and I know I am not alone in my view then perhaps the government should do this. I think this quote fits this situation well "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

My comments were pretty much ignored...

:rolleyes: ...fine.
The civil war was mainly about economic divergence, statism vs. federalism, and Southern paranoia about Lincoln. Oddly enough, these same issues plague our nation today. While the one of the eventual outcomes of the civil war was the Emancipation Proclamation, the war itself wasn't really just about slavery. It wasn't even primarily about slavery. Those injured Americans weren't just injured for slaves, they were injured for myriad reasons.

As for quality of life, that's a bit of an oversimplification. Black people in the US are disproportionately impoverished. Black people in the US are disproportionately incarcerated. Black people in the US are still very often the victims of systemic racism. Things are better than they were 100 years ago, but that's not really saying much.

Once you get past the sadness that comes along with the realization that this is very likely one of the most intelligent forums on the web and yet it harbors opinions as hopelessly naive as this - these threads are actually quite funny.

Check the dates here. People seem to think that everyone magically became equal the second slavery was abolished.

We're talking myriad effects here. How anyone could even begin to put a number on that is beyond me but, even then, that amount could hardly be considered reparations when the playing field is so obviously uneven. Not to mention the shitload of deserving groups.

Even if cash reparations would do some good, I'd imagine we'd fair better if we took a serious stab at ensuring that "We The People" actually referred to all of us.

Kudos to Willravel for being such a masochist that he takes these threads seriously.

What happened to 40 acres and a mule? Was that promise honored? If yes, then I don't think reparations are needed. If not, then isn't it important that our government honor its promises? What's 40 acres and a mule worth today?

As for quality of life, that's a bit of an oversimplification. Black people in the US are disproportionately impoverished. Black people in the US are disproportionately incarcerated. Black people in the US are still very often the victims of systemic racism. Things are better than they were 100 years ago, but that's not really saying much.[/QUOTE]


So your saying that black people in jail are only there because they're black?
I'm pretty sure if they're in jail it's because they committed a crime, got caught, and were tried and convicted in a court of law, based on evidence collected.

As far as racism goes, IMO, it's people like Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson, or the NAACP in general that fuel racism. Everything that happens to a black person, regardless of guilt or innocense, is automatically racism to them.

I truely feel awefull that human beings were property at one point, it's a terrible atrocity.

I will not, however, give money to someone because a few hundred years ago, a black persons great great great great grandfather was a slave. It has nothing to do with me or anyone else alive today. I have no idea if my ancestors owned slaves, and I really don't care. I didn't and never would. I believe all people are equal under the law and should be treated accordingly, not given special compensation because of the color of their skin, that is racist.

The problem I have with reparations is the potential for misuse. In other words, giving money to descendants of slaves is a bludgeon to a surgical problem. So, I'm all for tax breaks, subsidies, even school vouchers/busses/magnet programs and all that targeting the descendants, but I think the potential to squander reparation monies is too great--especially in a recessionary economy. (IMO)

jesus. this is entirely against by better judgment that i'm writing anything here.

--reconstruction.
this is the period of american history that conservatives in particular like to erase. maybe it helps some contemporary conservatives to better repeat the same kind of arguments if they can tell themselves that there's no precedent for them--i dunno. you want to see what happened to the reparations that were proposed after the civil war--which were more aimed at helping the ex-slave population begin operating in socio-economic terms in ways that broke with the past, check out the history of the reconstruction period. it was the white southern petit bourgeois who tried to set THEMSELVES up as the Victim of reconstruction...while the history is detailed and squalid beyond imagining, its outcomes are self-evident. same whining from the right now. except these days history itself is just another Evil Factor which Persecutes them.

as for the reactionary "Reverse Racism" canard--i am way too sick of having to chop up the myriad stupidities behind this to bother with it again.
the idea that what's at stake in a reparations proposal is skin color alone, abstracted from the past, is so idiotic that it boggles the mind.
paper-thin thinking yields paper-thin results.

it is both amazing and depressing--mostly the latter--the extent to which people like in a historical vacuum.

Sherman's Special Field Orders offered each freed family 40 acres and a mule, not the white southerners. I'm not aware of widespread white slavery in the pre-Civil war US, therefore, the orders really only talk about the slaves we all picture. It's these orders people cite when commonly discussing reparations. Still, this is less about committed obligation and more about justice. The social inequality reparations were supposed to help fix still exist, albeit in a different incarnation.

No, I only see black people talk about how the white man keeps them down or how when they are caught doing something and told it is wrong, it becomes "you are racist."

I don't see any other group use "you are racist" as an excuse to get away with something.

I may not have a job because Saturday a black man, who oh by the way is a drug dealer and has a history of coming into detox only to find business, threatened me and put his hands on me (simply for the fact I told him I was busy and my co worker could dial the phone for him. He had just used the phone asking someone if they "were going to front the money" and that "there was a mistake because they had the wrong address but it's going to be ok tomorrow, you just need to front the money."). After he threatened me and touched me, I said I was going to call the cops.

He of course pulled the "you are racist" bullshit and went on a rampage telling every other client how the place is run by racists and I would never call the cops on a white guy. (ANY client threatens me and then touches me I'm calling the cops.) I am damn good at what I do and the color of skin/ethnicity/sex etc has never affected my helping others. 95% of my coworkers know this, as do most clients when they see me talking to people who are begging for help.

First shift said he was trying to pick fights on their shift. Clients stated he was angry and everyone saw he was trying to pick fights with them.

The problem now with the people I work for is not what happened, nor because I deferred him to another counselor to use the phone or that I called the cops but that this guy used the word "racist". Because of that, irregardless of his actions or the threats the company by policy and the county run ADM board and the Ohio Dept of Alcohol and Drug Abuse Services (ODADAS) have to investigate the situation and I may lose my job.

This is just an example.

If you give reparations or even keep talking about it you allow this kind of behavior to continue. Simply because people will be able to use it as an excuse for poor behavior. It allows them to do that.

You want true equality and blind justice for all, then why continue to give excuses and condone this behavior?

Ya, I quoted a slave owner :orly:

I'm no descendant of a slave owner, and don't feel like I or anyone should have to pay reparations.

I tend to agree.

---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

I see what you did there.... :lol::hyper::lol:

this is what i was talking about, pan.
*you* are the ultimate victim of racism.

unbelievable.

Make every person who is directly tracked back to a slave owning past pay the decendant of the slave owned, divide the 40 acres and a mule between all the decendents. Per person that's what? $40 each?

If the nation decided to take my tax dollars to reparations I simply will short pay my taxes. Highest form of patriotism right?

May I assume you mean the Cherokee, Apache, Sioux, Blackfoot, et al, nations?

Re: Germans paying back for the Holocaust: Descendants are getting their artworks, jewelry, etc. back in drips and drabs. My grandmother's family was wiped out but I don't expect nor would I ask for whatever they had or the monetary value of such.
My grandfather, the son of a well-to-do merchant, became an orphan and a refugee from Russia around the time of the Bolshevik Revolution. Do the Russians owe my family? Nah...

I am not the descendant of slave owners, I am not a descendant of any early Americans and my taxes pay for enough drivel. I am one paycheck away from homelessness and can't afford steak but I'm supposed to support restitution to a single group of people based on their heritage? Nah..

History is history. Learn from it, move on, vow to never let it happen again.

Like I said earlier we need to fix the disparities in the education system. On top of that we need to fix the disparities in the justice system. Let's face it white people get off much lighter than minorities for comparable crimes. Why is the punishment for crack cocaine so much worse than cocaine? They are the same drug in a different form. Could it be that crack cocaine is the preferred drug of rich white people?

To many minority children in the country are growing up without a father, either because they are dead, in prison, or just a dead beat. This problem cannot be easily fixed and it is going to take time. To do this we need to change an entire culture. We need to give the children a good education and good role models. We need programs that keep the children engaged in positive activity and not the negative activities that are plaguing their culture.

What was done is done and is now unimportant compared to what we can do now. We will never change the past but we can change the future. Simply giving land/money to people will not solve these problems which is one major reason that I do not support reparations. Instead we can use that same money to change the entire culture for the good.

Technically this has been already happening. With specific reference to the Jews, German has been giving reparations to Israel since 1953. (LINK).

Why is his point invalid?

That is a perfect example of someone playing the "race"card

I never said that there aren't any black assholes. We all have to deal with assholes of every race, gender, and creed. It's a part of life. That doesn't have anything to do with reparations, though.

And for the last time, no one thinks you're a racist.

What are you talking about? Who said anything about white slavery?

Every freed slave was promised 40 acres and a mule, they were given some paltry bullshit consolation prize and then had it taken away from them by Johnson. I think the less-enlightened of us call that Indian Giving. If a nation honoring it's promises to its own quasi-citizens is not a form of justice, then I'd like to hear what you believe justice is.

rahl--see no. 17

So I open up about a personal experience and you are going to fucking mock me?????

WTF?

I was showing how the term "Racism" is abused and how some abuse it and YOU ARE GOING TO FUCKING TURN IT ON ME?????

GO TO FUCKING HELL I MAY LOSE MY FUCKING JOB OVER THIS BULLSHIT AND YOU WANT TO INFER THAT IT IS MY FAULT....... FUCK YOU!!!!!!

The incident had nothing to do with racism until HE started screaming racism, thinking it would get him out of trouble, take the focus off his wrong abusive behavior and punish me.

You prove that the problem is serious because you turned it on me?

The guy is wanted, he has a warrant, he was in Detox solely to make drug deals and I wouldn't let him use the phone to do it, so I'm the fucking racist???? He threatened me, touched me and I'm the fucking racist? Why am I the racist because I see what he's doing, taking the heat off his actions and blaming someone else????

WTF?

I even talked to a lawyer yesterday about it and there's not a whole Hell of a lot I can do about this. IT'S MY FUCKING CAREER AT STAKE!

Anyone knowing me personally knows I am not racist or prejudice in any way. YOU may think so because I don't hold beliefs like you do, but my beliefs do not prevent me from believing or seeing all people as equal.

I just don't understand people who believe the behavior of this guy is ok because he screamed racism to get out of the trouble he was in.

And if the mods want to censure me for this fine.... but FUCK YOU for that comment. HOW IS THIS MY FAULT? And yes, at this moment, as my job hangs on the line I do feel a victim of racism because he can scream it and I have to prove I'm not. I thought we were innocent UNTIL proven guilty.

Even if I do get to keep my job, I'm sure now every time a black man/woman asks for something I better give it to them. Fuck the white/asians/hispanics and native americans.... they have to follow the rules.

I wanted to make sure Roachboy's post wasn't misunderstood. His point about the historical context was important, but I felt the descriptions about "the white southern petit bourgeois" needed clarification.
Who are you arguing against? It's certainly not me. I've always supported the idea of reparations.

i made the point i intended to make in no. 17, pan.

maybe you didn't see it----i assumed you did and just thought your post a remarkable demonstration of what i was saying.

suffice it to say you totally misunderstood my response.

but the point i am making is pretty ugly: so your reaction isn't entirely a surprise.

If what happened happened, I'm sorry, but he's not every black person between the Emancipation Proclamation and now. He's one man. One asshole cannot be used as a basis to judge an entire race.

Sometimes your posts are very easy to misunderstand. In many posts it seems you try to pass long sentences and lack of capitalization as being more intelligent. IE if someone can't figure out what you are getting at you win the argument automatically.

I'm not the greatest with the English language, however sometimes your posts are very difficult to decipher. Your style does not at all make for easy internet debate.

The election of The Messiah, aka The Great One, is enough reparation for every wrong done in the past, present or future. Now that's change we can believe in.

This is why the Republican party is dying. And it's hilarious. Keep attacking a popular president. Keep attacking people that voted for a popular president. Keep using simplistic attacks instead of meaningful dialogue. I'll laugh all the way to the polling station next cycle as Republicans lose more and more ground.

Everyone was addressing the issue in the thread, and staying more or less on target, on both sides, till this post. Congrats, Timalkin.

I haven't abandoned this thread, but I've been reading responses to make a better reply. Thanks to those who have been contributing something.

Yes, it really happened and yes, my job and career are in limbo because of it. I am not just having my professional life looked at but my personal.

I'm not saying he is. In fact there are far fewer that use the race card than do. Mainly because most know it is an excuse to allow for bad behavior. But it is used and quite effectively because the white person called racist is guilty until proven innocent and then has to make sure there is never a question again. This allows for bad behavior to continue.

It's a perfect addiction ploy. If I know I can use something that will take heat off my bad behavior and make others feel sorry for me while someone else has to take heat I will do so. I will manipulate the situation into my favor. AND WE ARE DOING THAT WITH THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

"It's not your fault you live in poverty. You were never given a chance." If we say that long enough to someone they believe it, they don't try to succeed and they use that to manipulate others to give tacit approval to bad behaviors.

We have tried to even the playing field and it is far more even now then it ever has been, but we still talk about how repressed and held down they are so that those who want to use that as an excuse or want to manipulate situations so they don't face, for example assault and battery charges, we still bend over backwards to allow them to do so.

With EQUALITY, TRUE FUCKING EQUALITY, there is no such thing as looking at the past and putting guilt on one side and allowing the other side excuses for not succeeding.

If we keep telling segments they are being held down and forces outside of their control will never allow them to move upward.... they will believe that and use that as an excuse to not try. All reparations will do in the end is give more excuses and build more hatred.

How many innocent people have lost their jobs, their livelihoods and reputations because they were falsely accused of "racism"? And we allow it. We make excuses for it.

Yet, if 1 innocent African American/black person is affected by true racism, we make sure that they get everything they can and we hold them up as examples to how bad society treats the black person.

But when we find an innocent falsely accused of racism, we don't give them their life back.... we say "FUCK YOU, you probably are a racist or were racist you just weren't in this situation." IF we even care about their innocence at all.

That is a far bigger problem and hypocrisy than going back into history and making reparations for events that no one alive ever, ever partook in.

I fail to see how I am responsible for the sins of someone else simply because we share the same skin color. Isn't that sort of categorization more or less what we are trying to get away from in this country?

Also, if you spoil your kids and give them things they haven't earned, they are far more likely to turn into deadbeats who rely on mommy and daddy. Wouldn't it be absolutely criminal to in essence do the same to the black community by giving people huge handouts which removes (if only for a little while) the need to remain competitive? Or would more affirmative action be the solution to shore up that problem?

Pan, it's not the fault of black people that blacks are disproportionately poor. And it's not the fault of non-blacks saying that it's not their fault. It's the continuing existence of inequality dating back to the beginning of our nation.
No. No "buts". Some people have worked very hard to level the playing field. And we've made some astounding progress. We're simply not done yet. It's going to take a continuing, tenacious effort to finally push things to equality from inequality. Don't stop now, we're getting closer.
Like Manic said before, this isn't about something that ended. It's about something that continued on long after black people were freed. It's something still going on today.
That's fucking bullshit and you know it. This thread isn't about the tiny, tiny amount of people that are victimized by people abusing white guilt, it's about reparations. Stop being a drama queen. This thread isn't about you being victimized. You're white.

Slavery happened. It was a crime against humanity. For that crime, the government promised to make restitution. The government bitched out. Racism, which you can link directly to slavery, is still going on. It's not too late to make amends, which were promised.

---------- Post added at 07:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------

You're not responsible. We're all collectively responsible as the population of the republic. We bear the responsibility for our government. Our government promised compensation. Stop thinking like a conservative and start thinking like a citizen.

Having re-read #17, and hopefully reading it right, I owe you an appology. I though you were being sarcastic and telling me that somehow the event Saturday was my fault, in your later post. If I combine that post with 17, I can see I was proving your point and we have been close to saying the same thing...maybe. Your style is very difficult to understand sometimes.... as is mine.

Anyway, if I am correct, I WHOLE HEARTEDLY APPOLOGIZE FOR MY RANT. As you can imagine, I am very tense and worked up over this whole situation. I may lose my career and everything I have attained in my sobriety (respect from others, dream job of helping others, a career I love). Because someone decided to play the race card to hide his bad behaviors.... But in some way, given I work with addicts and that is what we when practicing our addiction do.... maybe I should have seen this coming and just dialed the phone and enabled his bad behaviors more or ignored the fact he threatened and touched me. Yet, in doing so, how is that helping the addict to recover if you are so scared of what may happen that you cannot point out bad behavior for fear of that manipulation being turned against you?

Catch 22 I guess.

My post was way more on target than the one containing this select quote from pan:

"GO TO FUCKING HELL I MAY LOSE MY FUCKING JOB OVER THIS BULLSHIT AND YOU WANT TO INFER THAT IT IS MY FAULT....... FUCK YOU!!!!!!"

But I'll take the congratulations anyway.

More on target, why the fuck is this even a discussion in the 21st Century? The more we take this idea seriously, the more we highlight differences and further separate American society. You can bet your ass that Jesse Jackson and his henchmen will be first in line with their hands out. They've haven't made enough money playing the race card at every opportunity yet.

I briefly spoke to roachboy in chat about this thread. One thing that I told him was that I was reminded of the differences between the U.S. and places like Toronto when it comes to race politics.

You see, generally, in North America, there is an undercurrent of while privilege. It's not universal, far-reaching, and omnipotent, but, generally speaking, visible minorities have a lot of crap loaded upon them, in varying degrees, based on their racial identity.

Blacks, of course, are no exception. My own perspective of the black community is Canadian and rather Toronto-centric. If you don't already know, Toronto is one of the most multicultural cities in the world. There is a large black population that consists of immigrants from around the world, including Africa, the U.S., and the Caribbean.

Canada doesn't have the specter of slavery in its past. However, this is not to say blacks have it easy here. There is a notorious neighbourhood here, Jane & Finch, which is well known for its crime, poverty, and blackness. The problem is that local lore and the media have blown it out of proportion. There are a few other neighbourhoods that are the same way. The fact remains that blacks in Toronto are disproportionately disadvantaged socially, economically, vocationally, and educationally. They are discriminated against by their community, the police, and the media. But many of them are not descendants of American-owned slaves. Many of them do have a slave ancestry, but I don't think their plight is as directly linked as it is in the States.

This is the big difference. There is no sense of ownership of the problem, because its only root is through their immigration stories. It's a big difference. It puts them in the same realm as East Indians, Chinese, etc., who have done the same thing here.

The problem I see in many of the responses in this thread is the idea that a long history (the abolition of slavery) and a single historical event (the election of a black man as president) can wash away the bitter realities of blacks across the country.

The slave ancestors of African Americans did not immigrate to America. They were hunted like animals, transported like cargo, and put to work as slaves for years. And when slavery was ended, what began were decades of hatred, discrimination, and segregation aimed at keeping blacks as second-class citizens. This was passed down from generation to generation, from American hands to American hands.

Americans, you own this burden. I am appalled to read how easily some of you pass off this responsibility as though it were made null and void by deep time and a single victory. Racism is alive and well, and if America indeed owes nothing to the descendants of slaves, this is at the very least tragedy of society and at the very worst a travesty of justice.

You cannot undo what was done by your ancestors. But you can set it right. For generations now, the families of former slaves have been passing on their burden. Isn't it up to American society at large to help share it? To help alleviate it? It's in the best interests of all Americans.

Am... am I a Canadian?

See post 30.

What happens when reparations have been made and they still live in poverty because the "liberal, white suburban bred kid with haughty ideals" keeps buying into and saying that, "They still haven't been given the chance.... the reparations were not enough, the white man/Asian/Hispanic that are achieving and grew up in the same areas had it easier."

What then, every black gets free college, a million dollars to open their own business.... what more do we give them then? How much further do we have to go until YOU A WHITE MAN, are satisfied the black man has been repaid enough?

I'm talking about scholarships and job training. I'm talking about something a lot more functional and valuable than a check. If scholarships and job training don't work, I'll quit my job and join the peace corps because America won't be worth my time anymore.
Let's start by having an increased police presence in black neighborhoods. Let's create some quality after-school programs. Let's improve the quality of schools in black neighborhoods. Let's build some nice recreational centers and parks in black neighborhoods. Let's finally discontinue racist mandatory minimums. Let's have better and bigger scholarships for black students. Let's provide job training programs for those unable to get into college.

When the playing field is level, I'll shut up. Until then, I won't.

Pan, I think it's a matter of improving black communities through sensible action. Unless we know blacks are genetically predisposed to crime and violence, there is a reason why a greater proportion of them are committing these crimes and filling up the prison system. These are social issues.

You see the same thing here in Canada with the First Nations. You see issues of poverty, drug abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence on reserves in Canada that are way out of whack with the rest of the country. The First Nations prison population? Way out of whack.

The government doesn't need to bless the palms of every black descended from slaves by cutting them a check. They should, however, focus on what's wrong with black communities and how to improve them. Extra education programs, vocational training, women's services, etc., etc. are all a part of the puzzle. Do black communities have access to what they need to succeed? Are they protected from the bad elements of society? Are those who slip given adequate means to rehabilitate?

EDIT: sorry for kind of parroting Willravel...I wrote this at the same time.

The words don't pour quickly nor elegantly enough out of my skull to keep up with these posts but I'd just like to point our your conspicuous use of the emphasized term and the fact that it serves to contradict your entire argument. We who, exactly? We the people? We the government?

Maybe it's my liberal land upbringing but I can't help but to find all of this hilarious.

Sorry about your work issues.

Ok will,

I am all for giving people a chance.

Provided that "chance" isn't money taken out of my pocket and given to someone else for a crime they didn't suffer and I didn't commit.

If you think slavery has a continuing impact on society and is adversely affecting the ability of the black population to fully integrate and compete, then fine, help them succeed.

The problem, as I see it, is that the government should be helping ANY disadvantaged person/group succeed in life.

We will argue to the ends of the earth about what exactly should be done as I have a far more conservative viewpoint, but I don't think that we should single out anybody based on past history, race, etc. When we reward people based on perceived wrongs it produces a society of squeaky wheels all of which are trying to complain the loudest so they can get the oil. If it is justified for blacks, it will be justified for Indians, Japanese, Germans (many were put in internment camps during WW2), Irish, Chinese, Mexicans, Mormons, and just about anybody who has ever been discriminated against in any way. A Nation, as policy, has to work to ensure past wrongs are not continued, but doesn't need to commit ritual suicide in a vein attempt at fixing history...no amount of money will change what happened.


I feel 'reparations' should come in the form of a truly race-blind nation where the descendants of former slaves are able to compete as equals, without prejudice or worse....the pity implied by a handout. I could not in good conscience accept a reward, trophy, or position I did not earn. My pocket book may hurt as a result, but my dignity is priceless. By promoting affirmative action, you are telling the a community that they will be hired because of who they are, not because they competed and won. If I were a member of that community that possibility would haunt me because I would never know whether I earned my job, or if it was the product of pity.

If I had a nickel every time a conservative acted like a social program to be financed directly out of their pocket, I'd be a millionaire. But I'd have to pay like 30% of it back. You know, taxes.

Anyway, nothing I listed could be considered a handout. Scholarships are an opportunity for an education, they don't just hand you a diploma. I'm all about providing the same opportunities I got. I had a safe neighborhood growing up because there was a reasonable police presence. I went to some decent schools, because at least one of the high schools I went to happened to be in an affluent area. I had access to good after-school programs to keep me out of trouble. This is simply about leveling the opportunities.

And it's not about fixing history, it's about repairing the present.

[/COLOR]
You're not responsible. We're all collectively responsible as the population of the republic. We bear the responsibility for our government. Our government promised compensation. Stop thinking like a conservative and start thinking like a citizen.[/QUOTE]

no we're not. I am responsible for me, and you are responsible for you, that's it.
This is not a socialist or communist country. It's a free country.

I don't mind helping people who need it, if I'm able. But times are tough for all of us and there is no reason any one particular race should get any sort of relief over another.

I am against reparations and I don't feel responsible for wrongs that were committed way before my time. I am trying not to get mired down in the details of responsibility, but rather focus on this issue:

I was trying to clarify the difference....because most calls I have heard for reparations have been of the "pay me some cash" variety.

I think what you suggest should be the product of a functional social system rather than reparations...we shouldn't be focusing on blacks but rather blighted areas, disadvantaged people, high crime demographics, etc. If the shoe fits for the black community at the moment, great they will get most of the resources. The focus should be on the current situation, not past wrongs, and shouldn't be about race, etc.

If the quality of the school system sucks somewhere, improve it. But don't pass over some shitty schools and focus on others simply because most of the students are black. Don't give a black kid a college grant when white kid from the same background has to work his way through school (that, in my mind is a handout). I don't think the government should offer grants or scholarships, only guaranteed loans. After all if college is a good investment, who better to make that investment than the person being educated? I paid my own way through school, and incurred a tremendous amount of debt in doing so. It rubs me wrong when other people are given advantages I was denied because they are a different race...especially when I hear them tell me they couldn't afford college. Everybody can afford college if they are willing to work hard enough and are willing to accept the responsibility of loans. If you are a credit criminal and cannot get a loan, then work upfront for it. My brother in-law is graduating this weekend after working as a sous-chef for five years full time while also attending college full time. He didn't have money, a fantastic GPA, a rich family, etc. He had a willingness to work and it will make him successful.

I think an increased police presence in high crime areas is a no-brainer, but the black community will probably disagree...they have certainly raised a stink about how many black people are arrested and extra cops won't fix that, at least not short term (though they could if they can begin to offer a significant deterrent effect).

There is very little money going to the average drug dealer, most would be better off working for a living, keeping most of their money, not going to jail, etc. That so many people choose that path against all indications that failure is virtually guaranteed is a testament to a failing culture, not a problem with racism. I feel social efforts should also focus on changing the culture where that sort of nonsense is considered acceptable.

Rahl, it's time for some basic sociology. Human beings are what's called a "social species". We don't function well on our own, and we developed in groups. We learned to hunt in groups, we learned to cultivate crops in groups, we learned to train beasts of burden in groups, and civilization was born from groups. Going back to before we were even bipedal, our distant ancestors were social. Even today, we are highly social. We are interdependent, and without that interdependence our species would probably die out pretty quickly. I'm sure this all sounds pretty theoretical to you, but it's not in the least. I'll give you an example. I work with a nonprofit organization that helps poor and homeless people in San Jose. Without the service I help to provide, poverty would be a bigger problem in San Jose. Our police would have to spend more time dealing with theft and homelessness, which would take their attention from what they're doing now. San Jose might become a less safe place if it weren't for the work I do.

Now, let's expand this to the topic at hand. Think about this: could your life be improved if the market was suddenly getting more educated people that happen to be black? Could your life be improved if gang violence and drug use were to suddenly drop off? Could your life be improved if we paid less taxes because we weren't incarcerating so many black people? Could it? Be honest.
You don't know what communism or socialism are, but I'll leave that for another thread.

pan--thanks for the post above. i appreciate it. maybe one of these days i'll start using caps here. i'm not sure that the results will be what folk might expect but at least it'll be more obvious where sentences start and stop.

we weren't really saying the same thing, but one thing i was not doing was commenting on what happened to you directly. it really was about the way you presented it.

i'm sorry you have been put through this ordeal at work.

Will, please try not to patronize people for disagreeing with you.

and the answer to your last series of questions is an unequivocal YES. However, we should be fixing that stuff because those problems are a drain on society, not because the people causing them are black.

And your posts about Reparations imply a sense of collective responsibility which I don't share with you. I simply don't feel obligated to brood on issues in the distant past. I am not pretending they never happened, but I don't feel collective guilt, hand-wringing and a token offering is anything but insulting and misguided.

Were they serious? Or on the Dave Chapelle show? I've heard the cash thing plenty of times, too, but it's almost always made in jest.
That's perfectly fine with me. Could we just call it reparations for the hell of it, though?
I don't want to freak you out or anything, but the lower income black, latino, and Asian families I know are virtually united on wanting more police presence in their areas. And this is in a city that has a reputation for racial profiling.
It's not culture, though. The few drug dealers I know that aren't white guys with dreadlocks selling weed were born into a situation that is self-sustaining. Sure, it's possible to get good grades at that horrible school. It's possible to endure the beatings by not joining a gang. It's even possible to get accepted to a decent college. But it's not by any means easy.

Imagine you're 14 and living at home. Your dad is long gone and your mom works two crappy jobs just to keep you housed and clothed. She can't provide structure necessary for developing an objective understanding of your situation because she's working her ass off at work, so when you see an opportunity to make $300 in an afternoon being a spotter, you take it. Before you know it, you're dealing. And let's just be honest: there actually is a lot of money to be made in illegal narcotics, especially for people that have grown up impoverished.
He was oversimplifying and I felt like calling him on it. He's not the only person that thinks in those terms, and it has to stop.
Why can't we do it for everyone and simply call it reparations? It's an honest effort at equality for everyone, including black people. Why can't this be how reparations take shape?

It's late so I am not going to try to parse your post into separate quotes.

I do not believe in an equal society, I believe in a fair society. I use the term 'equal' loosely and that is what I mean. Every person should have a fair chance to distinguish themselves and succeed. If the government provides some basic opportunities and they fail to take advantage of what opportunities are available to them (despite any personal difficulties) then I feel no obligation to continue assisting them.

No, I don't want to call a good, sustainable social program reparations...it is what a country with no history of slavery or discrimination should be doing and it has nothing to do with past wrongs, but on the current situation. We are not repaying anybody, we are investing in a stable society.

If a community wants an increased police presence (my statement was opinion not necessarily fact) they should get it, provided they have a higher than average crime rate to justify it (I suspect they probably do).


That is the definition of culture, and dudes are not making nearly that much money. I already agreed that we should try to fix the schools and have increased police presence, but you can't make a kid not join a gang, or sell drugs...his parents and neighborhood have to condemn that behavior and until they do that lifestyle will continue to persist. You are right that it is a vicious self-perpetuating cycle, but it requires at least the passive participation of the people in the neighborhood. If people called the police on drug dealers, reported murders, told the police who the gangs were, and controlled their children it would be far easier to prevent that behavior. If the drug-dealing lifestyle were as lucrative as you suggest, the dealers would not be living in poverty as the vast majority are.


I recently started seeing GD and SUR gang signs pop up on opposite sides of my neighborhood. I have called the police and spoken with them a couple times about the new gang activity, they have increased patrols in the area and spoken with local homeowners who had graffitti on their property to have it removed. I have removed some of those tags off of public property and I will not tolerate gang activity in my neighborhood. Ultimately I feel you only deserve what you are willing to defend, and I want my neighborhood to remain gang free (or as close as I can manage). If the people living in crime ridden neighborhoods took responsibility for the state of their own neighborhood there wouldn't be any problem with violence or gang or drug activity


2'nd Edit: And I have seen plenty of families in Afghanistan making far less than the poorest person in America still managing to raise respectful, hard working children who are respectful of both the home and the community. That isn't a money issue, it is a cultural issue.

Why don't all the bleeding heart types create a fund to do all of these great things? No taxes, no Senate bills, no NAACP. Start a fund, make a website, call the movement the "Great White Guilt Buyback." Collect donations from every person who suffers white guilt.

How much is your white guilt worth? It would depend on the level of guilt. People like me have none, so we don't give money. Other people have a shit load, so they give a shit load of money. People can give enough to where they can finally say that they have no more white guilt.

Distribute the money as you see fit. Don't care, not my money. White guilt gone, black people compensated for the shitty existence that white people force them to live, problem solved.

Sorry will but I do know what communism and socialism is. Please do not assume that you are smarter than I am. I commend you for doing the work that you do. I have no problem with trying to help out people who truly need it. But anyone who wants can better their own lives by working hard for it, not by seeking handouts because they are too lazy to work for it themselves.

We don't live in a perfect world. If we did there would be no class differences. No poor people no rich people. We do however live in the real world, and in the real world there will always be these differences, there always have been. It's just nature. Even in the animal kingdom there are the strong and the week. The strong always survive.


Everyone wants to make excuses for their own failings in life and it's bullshit. If you had a tough childhood or grew up in a tough area, thats no excuse to turn to a life of crime. You have the option to leave that bad area, and make a better life for yourself.

It's time people started taking responsibility for their own lives and stop blaming their circumstances for their station in life, or their unhappyness

No offense pan, but this isn't the first time you've shown this much hostility towards African Americans in a thread, don't you think that attitude may have something to do with that perception?

What hostility towards a whole race?

Towards a group that uses the race card to punish innocent people for their own means, YES. To the Al Sharptons, Jesse Jacksons, Rev. Wrights, because they propagate hatred and this thinking so that they may have power YES.

But not towards all African Americans or blacks. The vast majority are hard working people, with dreams and ideas much the same as me.

I've said that before, but because I spoke out against this warped racist thinking, I'm the racist or the one who is all angry? That's the true insanity, people who point out the truth are the ones the Rev. Wrights/Sharptons and Jacksons go after to silence. They don't go after true racists because they need to keep the hate alive.

Equal opportunities are all I'm talking about here.
Yes, but you have to admit that there has been an inequality for some time, an inequality that the government is at least partially responsible for. Correcting that inequality of opportunity would be a boon, and it might make up for the many years of there being inequality.
I'm not saying we can totally prevent kids from joining gangs or selling drugs, but I am saying by creating a society where everyone has the same opportunities is a step in making those options obsolete. Why would you want to sell crack if you could be an architect? Why would you want to be a pimp if you could manage your own software company? These were the options available to me in school, everyone should have them. I'm not talking about handouts, just allowing everyone to start the race on the same line.
Some do, some can't. We can't judge the people that call the police only to find it takes the cops 45 minutes to get there.
Some Afghanis are respectful, peaceful people. Some are militant extremists. Poverty doesn't affect everyone in the same way. Still, I don't know if I'm comfortable comparing Afghanistan to impoverished areas in the US. It strikes me as apples and oranges.
I didn't have to assume anything, you used the terms incorrectly. I didn't intend to come off as condescending as I did. For that I apologize. It's just that I've had the conversation about socialism and communism so many times in the past few years, I guess it was a knee-jerk response.
Poverty isn't generally a result of laziness. That's a bit of a myth. It's about several things; what situation you're born into, what school you go to... shoot a lot of it is simply chance. I work really hard for my salary, but I don't necessarily work any harder than someone working two jobs to make ends meet. I've done the minimum wage thing, and I have a healthy respect for someone working a crappy job.

When I was putting myself through college, I often had to hold down several minimum wage jobs at once. It was one of the most difficult times in my life, way more difficult than things are now making 4-5 times what I did then.
I don't think a perfect world would include no rich or poor, just maybe not so many people in poverty regardless of how hard they work. The strongest person I ever knew was my grandfather. He was career military, but for the first 30 years of his life he was dirt poor in a big way. His strength and effort had nothing to do with his income.

I'm pretty sure you're familiar with arise/train-wreck Paris Hilton. She's the worst kind of what you might call "weak". She makes more money in a year than most people make in a lifetime. Why? Chance. It's chance we should seek to compensate for. Chance likely shares a large part of the responsibility for the large amount of black and latino prisoners. Had they been born white, they'd not likely be in prison, statistically. I'm not suggesting an end to personal responsibility, but can you really hold someone responsible for something that's a matter of pure chance?
Not always. Some have the option, some don't. It's important to recognize that some people are either poor or criminals because of factors outside of their control. We can't be absolutist about it.

---------- Post added at 09:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

We do, but it's not enough. Last year I donated quite a bit to scholarship funds. I donated to the NAACP a few years back, actually. It's not enough because a lot of hard working people are unwilling or unable to take responsibility for their society. You reap the rewards of my donations to scholarships via a more stable society, but you refuse to admit it.

The "we" is the liberal white suburban idealist who propagates these ideas for some guilt fetish they have for being born or raised in the position they were while others suffer so. And the really warped thing is if you talk to these people and delve into their pasts you'll find the only blacks (I reall hate saying African American so I'm going to stop... it's separatist in my mind) they ever really met were either ones that grew up in their area or the ones they met in college. Very, very few who believe this have had to live in the "hood" for any length of time. Hell, I doubt some ever ventured into the "hood" after dark.

I used to think that way also, then I joined the military and met guys from the true inner cities of New Orleans, Newark, New York, LA, Chicago. Very few of them ever said anything about feeling "the white men holding them down". They looked at the military as a way to get out of the gangs and go to college or find a career. My best friend in the Navy was MS2 Mike Chisholm from Newark, he happened to be a black man, one who was extremely intelligent. He taught me a lot. He told me how he could have stayed in the "hood" but knew he was better than that.

I have met a lot of successful black men and women, far more successful than I have ever been and they all took pride in where they were. None of them once said "the white man held me down" or "the white man owes me". They accepted personal responsibility for their actions and moved forward and I have seen some of them called Uncle Toms and "sellouts" and traitors to the race. But, why? Because they accepted responsibility and didn't buy into the "white man is holding you down"?

Before I utterly and completely disagree with this statement, please clarify your definition, er.. perception of poverty.

Is poverty to you making minimum wage, living hand to mouth or the inability to feed ones family? Is poverty to you the state of being homeless or abject disillusioning poverty that is brought about by impoverished lands and nations like many third world countries?

Offtopic:
For the love of god ... Leave Paris Hilton alone!!!

folk have problems with the american class system. for some, the way to deal with this is to pretend the class system isn't there; the alternative, which american conservatives trafficked in for many years, is to simultaneously pretend there are no structural features that shape the class order in order to enable a fantasy world in which one's socio-economic position is a function of one's gumption or of some other inward characteristic--it ends up as some fucked up calvinist thing where one's chosen-ness is reflected in one's socio-economic position. more money=more virtue; less=less. there are several functions to this--the self-evident one is that this viewpoint erases social factors in producing and reproducing class and along with that erases any political meaning to it. if there's no political meaning, then there are no political solutions.

i've found it ironic for a long time that this view of class had currency amongst more conservative folk at the same time as the economic ideology that was of a piece with it was exacerbating class divisions and undermining the socio-economic status of working people. it's like there was some solace to be had in impotence.

american capitalism is a brutal form of a brutal system. most of the arguments concerning the way in which race and class have intertwined in the states outlined above seem to me hopelessly naive.

1. the claim that the impact of poverty within significant segments of the african-american community can be coherently addressed with bromides about "standard of living" as if all that mattered was income level takes an absurd, narrow, pseudo-empirical aspect and confuses it with the whole. you want a better measure, look at mortality rates. look at incarceration rates. conservatives have "dealt with" the intertwining of race and class in particular as it has impacted on segments of the african-american community by radically expanding the percentage of that community that's in prison. that's a social program conservative style. conservatives have "dealt with" this relation by presiding over a shocking mortality rate amongst african-american men in particular in poorer urban areas that makes of poverty as it interacts with racism in the states as bad or worse than anyplace on earth. depends what you look at as a measure i suppose. what's clear is that more conservative folk who tend to have difficulty thinking in terms of structure use this same truncated ëmpiricism" to see only what they want to see in terms of social measures.

2. traditionally the people who have opposed addressing the consequences of class are those who benefit from the existing arrangement--and in the states the most obvious manifestation of it is spatial segregation--and the most obvious correlate of that is disparities--and often quite appalling disparities--in the quality of education--which makes of spatial segregation a direct and extremely efficient motor for the reproduction of class. have a look sometimes at the way in which school desegregation played out in the 1970s. there's a good book about the process in boston called common ground--what you had basically is a petit bourgeois contingent which opposed it vocally and on grounds that ran very close to racism--then you had the silent opposition of the middle class, which simply sent their kids of private schools. attention came down on the people from, say, charlestown and southie---but the actions of the more affluent were every bit as political. and the main battle that was lost over this question of desegregation had to do with defining the areas that were to be effected by it---in the end, what happened is that class boundaries were left entirely as they were, and kids were shuffled from one shitty school to another--while out there on white island, everything remained as it had been.

so don't talk to me about "suburban idealists"---the idea isn't even worth spitting on.

3. racism has long been a tool that has been used to shortcircuit attempts to address problems of class. different people have at different times carried shit for the dominant order in this way. now the most vocal are the conservatives who are attracted to that position on populist grounds---but the bigger politics of class condenses around questions like "property values" and "good schools" and "safe neighborhoods"---and that is the more odious kind of politics because the folk who play these games dont have to see what they're doing as political at all.

what's being talked about here really is a project to change the way class works in the united states. the way class works is often barbaric, but folk who like to feel good about america blah blah blah tend not to look real hard at this sort of problem because looking leads to thinking about history and thinking about history leads to thinking about choices and thinking about choices leads to thinking about alternatives...and then you may start thinking that something is deeply, structurally fucked up about this glorious land, and seeing that makes it a little harder to participate in the endless circle-jerk of feeling good about america blah blah blah.

and this thread so far is an interesting little mircocosm--it's hard for questions of class to get traction because theres a segment of the population that would prefer to think these aren't really questions, or that they're an entirely different type of question than they are.

We thank you for translating his posts for us. No, not just we...America thanks you.

Please stay with us. The Peace Corps has all the young college graduates, but where will America get another willravel? :thumbsup:

What do you think is cheaper? Educating them when they are young and providing other social programs to make them productive members of society or paying for their life in prison.

An educated well-to-do society is better for everyone. I'll repeat myself: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". I feel I'm a broken record hear.

40 hours a week on minimum wage is below the poverty level in the US for a family of two. Still, even with only one person it's difficult in most areas to live on $15,000 a year. I'd say yes, but qualify that statement based on where you are. $15,000 a year in Detroit right now isn't quite as bad as it is in Manhattan.
If you can't afford food, that's an emergency. I'd absolutely say that's poverty.
Yes.

However in the know you may be, your relationships do nothing to legitimize your argument nor do they counteract the fact that it takes a strangely selective perception of the past to proliferate that "white guilt" nonsense.

I've alluded to it in my previous posts and it's been said by those who have more patience than myself but I'll put it out there again - if you think that all the poor need is to get off their asses and stop feeling sorry for themselves then you simply don't have the slightest clue as to what you're talking about.

You and I can both agree that reparations in the form of cash are a bad idea but that nonsense about success only being one good idea away isn't even true for the middle class, let alone the poor.

...

Is there anyone prepared to make the argument that blacks in America today would be better off if they were in Africa?

If blacks wouldn't be better off, then why the reparations?

Bingo.

The odd thing is that a lot of people that perpetuate this myth are, themselves, poor. Poor conservatives and libertarians seem to grab onto this idea that people are poor on purpose and refuse to let go even forsaking the evident truth in their own lives.

Sometimes you can work hard, make all the "right" choices, and still fail. Had it not been for two scholarships, I wouldn't have been able to afford the tuition for the college I went to. I would have had to settle with San Jose State instead, and I never would have met the professor that set me up with a job out of school. I'd have graduated, but would probably be working some medial job for a relatively (for San Jose) low income. I'd not have been able to buy my home. I'd probably not be poor, but I'd not be as comfortable as I am now. And all because of two scholarships that I could have just as easily not gotten.

BTW, I don't feel white guilt. I'd feel the same way about inequality if I were Asian or Indian or Latino or Eskimo. Or black.

---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 AM ----------

How about this: what would Africa look like today if it weren't torn apart by the imperial West? Do you think it'd be overrun with AIDS, civil war, and famine if it weren't exploited for generations by the US, UK, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany, etc? Of course not.

um, no. don't even go there with that generalization.

Ok, pay reparations to the Acadians. Wait... that was before your time so it's ok then?

You can pay reparations if you like, Willtravel, but I won't. I didn't enslave anyone. And blacks today have benifited as much as I did from slavery. They live in a great nation with a high standard of living. They have freedoms that no African nation enjoys. If they can not make it here, then its no one's fault but their own.

That's a common strawman. No one is suggesting that you owned slaves. You don't. I believe you. You're a citizen of our republic and our republic promised to pay. You're responsible. I'm responsible. If you don't want to be responsible for the promises our government makes, you have to stop being a citizen. While you're free to do that, I don't recommend it.
This is incorrect. If they can't "make it" here, it might be their fault or it might not be. Like Manic said,

You are hopless. Blacks live in the nation with the highest standard of living, and best quality of life. THEY are benifiting from black slavery. Should they pay reparations to themselves? And they can make it here. Its racists like you that have low expectations. How pathetic do you think blacks are that they can not succeed unless nice white folk like you give them a leg up?

God there is so much ignorance in this thread. This is not about you owning slaves or anyone being a slave. It doesn't matter what Africa is like now or what it might have been without the exploitation. This is about the social welfare of this country. Minorities aren't having problems because they are all lazy they are having problems because the deck is stacked against them. As a society we really have 2 options, we let the deck continue to be stacked against them forever and let a viscous cycle continue from which they will likely never escape, or we do what we can to end the cycle and eliminate the disparities that exist.

I have no problem with my tax dollars going twoard social welfare that is designed to end this cycle. I understand that we have both a moral and a financial interest in these social programs. The cost of educating a minority is much less than the cost of putting them on trail and in prison. Productive members of society are much more useful to this country than unproductive.

Or you guys so short sited that you can't see the true cost of having large disparities between these cultures? If you think these disparities are good I suggest you move to a third world country and see what life would be like.

Should we hand out money? No way, but we should give money to causes that attempt to end this cycle. Improve schools and improve social programs aimed at educating and rehabilitating inner city youth. We have a chance to change the world for generations to come but some of you are so selfish that you only care about yourselves.

On the contrary, I'm quite hopeful. In my lifetime, the cold war effectively ended, computers went from being as big as a house to inside of my phone and now can connect everyone on the planet, we were able to lift millions of people out of poverty, and Chuck Norris kicked countless hooligans. It just goes to show you that humanity is capable of incredible good, but progress requires vigilance. I'm simply being vigilant.
The United States of America boasts neither of these, actually. The standard of living is higher in Norway, Australia, Canada, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan, France, and several more countries. Quality of life isn't quantifiable, but have you ever been to Norway? It's seriously like traveling to the future.
This argument effectively died after the Great Depression. That reset the clock on US economic power. We are currently enjoying our high standard of living because of massive borrowing.
Technically, they would via taxes, but because the tax burden would be widespread, they'd be getting more than they paid for.
Ask a black person if I'm racist.
The poor are victimized by society, Zenturian. Many black people are poor, therefore many black people are victimized by society. It's not a matter of weakness, it's a matter of circumstance. Because the poor in our country are disproportionately black, many members of each generation are born into poverty. Were you born into poverty, Zenturian? I was born into a lower class family, but I don't think I was ever impoverished except perhaps briefly during college. Have you ever been impoverished? Do you understand the state of poverty? Or do you stand from the outside, judging them without anything to formulate said judgment on? From my direct experience, it's not a matter of pathetic or estimable, it's often a matter of numerous circumstances combined with personal ability and motivation. Should great capability and unmatched motivation meet with the wrong circumstances, one can still fail. This is often the case when dealing with people that are poor.

Let's put your view under the microscope you used incorrectly on mine. You're almost certainly aware that more black people are poor, lack college educations, and are imprisoned. By your black and white understanding of society, though, there's nothing standing in their way, right? They live in the land of equal opportunity! So how do you account for the statistics about income, imprisonment, and education? Why,
... uh huh. Take that to it's logical conclusion. It's black people's fault that they're poor. It's black people's fault that they're born into a system in which they're hundreds of times more likely to be imprisoned than a white person. It's black people's fault that they can't get into college.

And I'm the racist? Open your eyes, Zenturian. Open your eyes and see. Its marvelous what you can see when you open your eyes. Come, marvel with me.

Ok so no one answered my question as to when enough is enough. Let's say we give reparations and we still have blacks in poverty, then what? Do we give more and more?

What about the whites living in poverty? Are they shit out of luck simply because they were "lucky" to be born white and thus have so much more going for them????

What about the personal responsibility issues I have listed above and yet they have been ignored?

I am not one who believes the Ultra rich has helped many. The top 5% are getting richer the rest of us are trying to fight for just a piece and some want to give more to others simply based on race and past problems. This makes no sense to me.

You are saying the black man deserves and should get what ever he needs to get out of poverty, yet the whites living in poverty deserve shit? Makes no sense it sounds like racism. But what do I know I'm a racist according to many here.

Why not just open scholarships and grants for ALL people under a certain income bracket? Why not help ALL people under a certain income bracket? OOOO because some were born black and some were born white and the white guys have it easier????? That is such fucking bullshit.

People are losing their jobs, houses, savings, everything and you want to give the blacks reparations?

What about the Native Americans? We were far, far harsher to them and promised them things while we exterminated as many as possible, Yet where is the cry to give them reparations?

We put not only Japanese but most Asian descendants into internment camps during WW2 simply because of their ethnicity, our government took their lands and all property..... where are the cries for reparations for them?

And why don't we go to Africa and demand that the winning tribes who SOLD their captives from losing tribes to the white man and demand reparations from them? After all, they sold their own people to us. OOOO but that would be racist and wrong.

There is so much fucking hypocrisy and "feel good" but fuck over others based on color of skin that I can't truly fathom why anyone buys into this racist division bullshit.

Ahhhhh division. Keep the people hating each other and it allows those who continue to propagate the hate to gain power, wealth and control over others.

Cool, let's just give Sharpton/Wright/Farrakhan and so on our paychecks and they can dish out what they believe we deserve and what they decide to keep they can.... and they can say it's to payback all these years of racism. Then we can watch blacks, whites, asians, and all who are losing their jobs and working for minimum wages and living paycheck to paycheck be told not to squander their money.... live frugally..... meanwhile we'll just keep taking out reparations until no black man lives in poverty.... fuck the whites/asians/hispanics and the native american they deserve to live in poverty, they don't understand the black man's plight. We're not being racist. we're not dividing the country more.... we're just giving money and scholarships and chances that will not be available to others based SOLELY ON SKIN COLOR.

What I am saying applies to all poor people, white, black, hispanic, native american, etc. Improve the programs in these impoverished areas and we will easily get a return on our money in the future.

"Enough is enough" when we give them the same opportunities as their white counterparts. That's when it's enough and not a moment sooner. And there will be a transition period. Even if all the right changes were made today, we wouldn't see even prison populations, even education, etc. for many, many years. That's the price we pay for waiting so damned long.
All of the changes I listed would help impoverished people regardless of skin color. After-school programs in lower income areas wouldn't just help black kids, they'd help any child that might otherwise be in danger of falling into a gang or drug use. The reason I call it reparations is that its implementation will help black people more because proportionally more black people are lower class. In truth, it would help Latinos, Asians, whites, blacks, and any other people that are impoverished. It'll just happen to help Latinos and blacks more.
What about the multitude of responses? They're right above.

Punishing this generation for the actions of past generations makes about as much sense as punishing a son for the crimes of his father. If any reparations are owed they should have been paid by those who committed the unjust acts and not their descendants or others just because they are members of the same race.

Improving programs for the impoverished should be encouraged regardless of how they got there. To my way of thinking this is much different than trying to justify paying reparations directly to the descendants of an abused race by the descendants of other races who had nothing to do with it.

Willtravel is hopless. He has the racist problem of low expectations. Again, he thinks blacks can not help themselves unless enlightened whites like himself give them the boost they need. There is no debate in this topic, he won't hear any viewpoint other than that. And he clearly thinks he is helping. That is the ironic thing. Like Fredrick Douglas said, " Let the black man rise or fall on their own." Clearly wiltravel must think that Douglass is part of the problem...

Stop calling me a racist. I know you're new here, so I was wiling to grant you latitude, but unless you can demonstrate racism to the objective reader, you're just name calling. TFP isn't a place for name calling.
You're not reading my posts. I think that the poor live in circumstances that make success more difficult. I suggest allowing everyone to have the same circumstances, the same opportunity for success. You clearly have missed this and are assuming that I'm making a different argument.
Read my posts, I'm reading, comprehending, considering and responding.
That quote sounds nice on paper, but it is an oversimplification. All great quotes like this are oversimplifications. Black people aren't statistically more impoverished in a vacuum, there are real and numerous factors involved, and those factors must be addressed by all people, not just black people, because the ultimate consequences of those factors reach all people regardless of skin color.

Douglas, in that quote, was trying to inspire black people of that time to take responsibility for themselves, but that alone didn't cause the Emancipation Proclamation, did it? No, it was the combined efforts of many abolitionists, white and black, and a complex socio-political atmosphere as well as a civil war. These things take considerable effort, and those working for change need all the help they can get. I refuse to stop fighting because you think I'm somehow enabling weakness. I feel that I'm supporting the overall strength of the movement for social equality.

Edit: it's Willravel, as in Will (me) and Ravel.

What about poor whites then? Should they get reparations? There are vastly more poor whites. Did racisim and the system make them poor?

---------- Post added at 05:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

And I am calling your racist because you are. You are not a bad person, but you honestly think that Blacks can not make it in America without help. That implies they are inferior. Asians can make it. Hispanics, but not blacks. Ergo, you are racist. That is my whole point of reparations. They are a racist notion that a certain group of people can not succeed in a nation that has fucked over everyone. Look at the history of the Irish in America. More than half the population of Ireland came to the New World as slaves, yet you would be laughed at for suggesting that I should get reparations. And if I were to claim that I can not get a break due to my ancestor's enslavement, no one would take me seriously. The Irish suffered from slavery the same as, or more than any other ethnic minority, yet for some reason Irish can do fine without handouts. but do gooders like you think that for some reason, blacks are incapable of fending for themselves unless white people do it for them. Hence, you are racist. No offence as I am sure you are a nice guy, but you thinking so poorly of blacks is racist.

I'm begging you, read my posts. Do you know what form reparations would come in if I were in charge? Better schools in poor neighborhoods. More after-school programs. More recreational centers in poor neighborhoods. More scholarships. More job training. Get rid of mandatory minimums.

These things would help all the poor. Why call it reparations? Because black people are disproportionately poor and imprisoned.
By amount? Yes, absolutely, but it's fuzzy math simply comparing numbers. There are a lot more white people in the US than there are black people, so saying there are more white people doesn't actually speak to the problem. Proportionally, black people are more poor than white people.

And proportionatly blacks commit more murders, rapes and violent crimes. That may be the reason more blacks are in jails.... But don't let logic get in the way of a good debate.

No one is against good schools, except maybe the democrats. Look at how well they run the school systems. i am with you on this one. Toss out the unions and let schools compete for money and watch quality improve. Who suffers when Unions ( ei, democrats and liberals) the poor.

And if everyone gets better schools, then why do you insist on calling it reparations? Why not make a thread called "Improve Public Education?" Methinks you are just itching for a fight.

Actually, proportionately, POOR people commit more murders, rapes and violent crimes. The fact that there are more black people in that group is why you see more black people committing more murders, rapes and violent crimes. You see how it all make sense?
Because helping the poor would disproportionately help black people more. Like I said above. Twice.

No, even poor whites commit less crimes than poor blacks. So you are wrong on that account.

And helping the poor would help more white people, since there are more poor whites than any other race in America so calling it reparations is just asking for charged debate to spice up a boring argument that no one would be against.

---------- Post added at 05:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:34 PM ----------

And again, if slavery is to blame, why don't the Irish suffer the same affects, since proportionatly, they suffered more than blacks from it?

Actually, white people commit more assuming we are talking about people making $13,000 or less a year. Where are you getting your statistics? The difference is that whites are statistically less likely to get prison time. Would you like to compare citations? I'm ready.
Not at all. It's about providing a level playing field. If suddenly more poor black people have the same opportunities that people like me got, you're going to see just how beneficial it can be.
Slavery isn't to blame anymore, racism is.

Then say that, don't say "reparations"........



[/COLOR]Compare this:


To this:

First it's ""Enough is enough" when we give them the same opportunities as their white counterparts." "That's the price we pay for waiting so damned long."

So it's reparations to help only the poor blacks because whites (no mention of any other ethnicity, race or culture)...... but you change your tune in the very next reply to my posts, to it helping "all poor people."

So if we say that then it's not truly "Reparations" it's ..... um....... welfare, the war on poverty, social programs to help the inner city..... Which we have tried and failed at because it doesn't reward hard work and personal responsibility and has led us where we are now. People say "ok, let's help" Then the abuse is shown and it's "we tried screw them trickle down yes." And finally social, moral, spiritual, financial decay and bankruptcy of the nation.

So, is it true "reparations" you are wanting..... which would mean programs and monies ONLY to Blacks OR are you wanting social reform and programs?

You are fighting for one or the other you cannot call one the other because they are not the same thing. Because by it's very nature and meaning to those demanding "reparations" it is solely for the blacks and no one else.

I never changed any tune. Black people are disproportionately poor, therefore a move to help all poor people would disproportionately help black people more. Black people are poor because of inequality in society the roots of which can be traced all the way back to slavery.

So, to put it into one sentence: I want social reform specifically dealing with impoverished and high crime areas, which happen to include a disproportionate amount of black people due to race-based societal problems dating back generations, the consequence of which will eventually be a more equal opportunity for success regardless of race, gender, or creed.

It is astounding how you pass off what you think or expect as "fact" without bothering to look it up.

Explain this to me:
According to the CDC, the proportion of blacks who use illicit drugs is very slightly higher than the proportion of whites. We are talking about 8.1% of whites to 9.7% of blacks. And yet blacks are 4 times more likely to be given jail time for possession and make up 44% of all people arrested for possession of illegal drugs. Drug possession is responsible for about 1/5 of all who are currently in jail.

As far as the whole "unions and education" argument, that is so far removed from any reality as to be ridiculous. Not surprisingly, people who push this perspective are generally basing their findings on hearsay or anecdotal evidence, and not looking at the data (and the few that are do no control for confounding factors).
http://epicpolicy.org/files/Chapter10-Carini-Final.pdf

But Will, in all honesty, that is far different than wanting the "reparations" Farrakhan/Sharpton/Wright et al say they deserve.

Social programs with fiscal responsibility are great. My job (if I have one), my profession needs social program funding. So I will not argue there.

Reparations mean different things to different people. Anyone saying we should start issuing checks either isn't being serious or probably doesn't understand the consequences of such an action. As far as I'm concerned, it's simply a matter of doing what we can to ensure that the cycles of racial problems are finally purged from our society, and the government can play a role in that purge by ensuring that there are responsible and proven social programs available.

Aye no one in this thread has claimed that we should just write some checks. The "reparations" that Will and I have discussed have been about forward thinking social programs aimed at improving the future.

Writing checks will do nothing to fix the problems we are seeing and in many ways may make them worse.

it is strange---conservatives like to talk about meritocracy and in the process pretend to themselves that such a (one-dimensional) social arrangment is possible without anything being done to alter the class system. when people in the public sphere (you know) have the audacity to actually reference the inequities of that class system, conservatives set them up as objects of the usual Grouphate.

so it appears that conservatives oppose the class order at the level of fantasy, but in fact they kinda like it--if this were not the case, they'd abandon this fantasy of equality and turn their attention to the actually existing class order, how it operates how it reproduces itself, it's effects--and would advocate a politics that would go after that order, change it, and change it radically.

it's like there's some political circuit that one assimilates as one drifts into being conservative and that circuit determines associations and those associations determine outcomes. so even folk whose underlying sentiments might be quite close to one another's end up not being able to communicate really because the interior of arguments--and so of viewpoints---differ enough that even when we might try to talk about the same thing, we can't quite manage it.

the problem then is the way shifts happen from a sense of something being wrong or fucked up or whatever into the set of arguments and associations that let us articulate that sense and come away from the process with the sense that we'd said something. the only way to have a discussion across divergent arguments/associations is at a remove from them--ok what is the problem here; how to describe it so that we know we have at least some hope of referring to the same thing; what kinds of argument best fit with this image of the world that is produced through description; how do we evaluate this sense of fit?

i can see some common ground at the level of sentiment with quite a few of the folk above whose arguments run counter to mine---not all of them---but quite a few.
but we can't ever seem to get anywhere in terms of doing more than simply rehearsing the grids we start with.
maybe it's a messageboard thing---i dunno.

About 70% of black children these days come from single family homes. Absentee fathers cause the poverty, not racisim. How is this to be blamed on slavery?

Comon, you can do better than that. Do I even have to ask? Why do you think there's a higher rate of single parenthood among black people? It's the income! There's a higher rate of divorce among people of low income, and black people are disproportionately represented in the low income bracket. Social inequality becomes financial inequality becomes further social inequality. This isn't doctorate level sociology here.

Wrong. Black culture doesn't place much value on marriage. That's why there is a higher rate of single parenthood. The biggest problem facing black people is their culture. Unfortunately, no amount of white help will fix a broken culture. They have to do it themselves.