One of the most enduring effects of slavery is the fracturing of the black families. This was a deliberate action performed to prevent any bonds or relationships forming that could pose a threat to the sole authority of the slave master. The presence of an authority figure in the role of a father could undermine the authority of a slave master in the eyes of children. To combat this, families were consistently broken up and scattered, often with every member of a family sent in different directions. The hope was there would never be strong enough bonds developed that could challenge the master.

I'd go into all the citations, but this is a pub discussion where that sort of google-mastery is frowned upon.


It's this very type of snobbery that makes politics so ugly to so many members. Stop being so sanctimonious to so many people. This is a pub discussion. You started it, in fact. It's this very type of behavior that drives people away in droves. You know the letter of the rules of tfp. You also know the spirit of them. Stop flaunting them at new members as if attempting to establish some sort of dominance here. It's making tfp look like a bunch of elitist pricks.

You said it better than I did. Thank you.

---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:49 PM ----------


Wrong. Why was the marriage rate much higher for blacks in the forties, fifties and sixties? How could slavery acount for that?

Are you really going to keep jumping into threads to talk about what's supposedly driving people away from the forum? Don't you think that in and of itself might be something that would drive people away? This discussion is about reparations. He called me racist, I told him to back it up. That's discussion, that's debate. A reparations thread isn't going to be an emotionless, unexciting place, it's going to have radically different opinions clashing, as it should be. Please, everyone, stop with the public pity parties about the amount of posts and posters. It's not helping anything.

Anyway...
Can you elaborate about how you came to this conclusion about the entire black race not putting value on marriage? And before you type, ask yourself if this would be something you'd be willing to say to the face of one of your black friends or coworkers.

I'll be the first to admit that income isn't going to be the only factor in divorce, but it's a major contributing factor, probably the largest overall. Other contributing factors are religion, age, location, and children. And yes, culture. Still, saying that black culture doesn't place much value on marriage is waaaay out there.

Well when 70 % if back kids are born into single parent families, well I guess that the math shows how black culture feels about marriage.

Yeah, but you're assuming that it's culture that is the cause. What makes you think it's culture that causes this?

I've stayed out of the root-of-the-problem discussion thus far, but I have to point out the incorrect nature of this.

Look up the Harlem Renaissance. Look up the development of black culture throughout the first half of the 20th Century and you will see strong households with strong parental influences. Black schools which looked inward to help develop new talent leading to such greats as George Washington Carver and Dr. Williams. Black doctors who specialized in medication in the ghettos, black teachers inspiring their own to overcome and persevere.

Somewhere along the line the family structure broke down. It was not due to slavery, and the oppression during the equality movements only seemed to strengthen it. Somewhere it broke down, and to be honest I can't figure out what.

Ah, Sever, it's fun when we occasionally agree.
This question would make a hell of a thread. :thumbsup:

So what caused the marriage rate among blacks to drastically decline since the 60s?

---------- Post added at 02:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 AM ----------

It sure would as Willravel would be hard pressed to blame slavery for this. I mean, nothing bad can be attributed to blacks. It has to be white people's fault somehow.

AHHHHH, but you did change your tune Will. Up until this point it has ONLY been about giving to the Blacks and noone else.

This was not geared for ALL people in poverty it was geared solely for "Descendents of SLAVES" which would mean ONLY blacks.

All this has nothing to do with "social programs for ALL poor, just BLACKS.

Again, only BLACKS.



Again, only BLACKS.


Again, only BLACKS.

Again, only BLACKS. And in this one you can't talk about Afghanis in poverty.... just BLACKS. Poverty is poverty. If ANYONE lives in poverty they should have equal access to social programs... not just blacks. And to say "well, that particular ethnicity/race/group living in poverty, I'm not going to comment on because poverty doesn't hit everyone the same." BULL FUCKING SHIT. POVERTY IS FUCKING POVERTY. Tell the whites/Asians/Afghanis/anyone living in poverty that their poverty is not worse than the blacks. That is so fucking racist and such bullshit it's disgusting.

So where is the equal opportunities for ALL PEOPLE in poverty?????? You say that's what you were talking about. You say you weren't just trying to get "reparations", you say people have different meanings for "reparations" and yours is supposedly for ALL in poverty..... but before you said that when people started questioning about ALL PEOPLE in poverty, it was all just about the blacks getting what YOU believe they deserve.

That is the very definition of racist and then waffling.

---------- Post added at 03:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 AM ----------

And finally.... later you go back to how we owe only 1 race.... fuck everyone else in poverty..... it's all about redemption for 1 race. Not trying to help lower poverty levels for ALL.

For the record I don't feel any guilt nor do I feel I owe the black race anything. They are as responsible for their personal destiny as I am. Any of us can choose to live below the poverty line and blame something or somebody for our despair and the government will send us a check once a month. At the end of the day this is still the United States of America and anyone can do anything they want if they put their mind, heart and soul into it. There are plenty of examples of black people rising above and reaching for the sky and to blame other races for the despair of those that refuse is racist and it takes away from the millions who have already and those still putting forth the effort. There will always be a small percentage of people that have fallen on hard times and need assistance for a short time or those that don't have the mental fortitude to make it and will be in need government assistance their entire life but the vast majority of people living below the poverty line, regardless of race, live there by choice because it's the easy way out. It's much easier waking up amid squalor and crime everyday blaming someone else while you cash that government check than it is to take responsibility and work your ass off day and night to get out of the situation your in.

This is where your problem lies: You think something that isn't politically correct is necessarily wrong because you could not/would not say it to someone's face. If it doesn't hurt anybody's feelings, then it must be the right answer...right? That's a load of bullshit. The truth hurts sometimes, but we all must face the truth if we are going to eliminate the problems facing blacks in poverty situations. What do you think when black people say that black culture doesn't value marriage? Is that a racist thing to say?

If I see an obese person dying of high blood pressure and diabetes, my solution to them isn't going to be "oh, it's OK. It's the restaurant's fault for putting too many delicious fatty items on the menu." My answer to them would be "Get the fucking twinkie out of your mouth you disgusting slob. You've done this to yourself, now unfuck yourself or you will die. It's simple." Whether it would hurt that person's feelings is irrelevant to the truth.

so now the conservative set is getting pissy. fact is that it's only in your fantasy world that socio-economic opportunities are distributed evenly. in the real world, class position is an overwhelming determinant of possibilities. o sure, part of being conservative entails avoiding nasty ugly structural realities and substituting for it mythologies of the Execeptional Individual who through Gumption and Grit strides manfully off the pages of a horatio alger story and into 3-d where he Triumphs Over Adversity because this is Amurica dammit and that's what we do here, that's what amurica is about, these Exceptional Individuals who stride manfully off the pages of cheap stupid 19th century novels. so Everyboy Everywhere is an Exceptional Individual conditioned only by the level of Gumption and Grit poured into his skull by whomever wrote this cheap stupid novel that is amurica conservative style--nothing but Exceptional Individuals who manfully Compete with each other in the manly man arena of the Market and if one Exceptional Individual makes out better than another then dag gummit it Proves that there is a Gumption and Grit Gap. folk who do not fare well in the manly man world of competition are therefore Less in the Virtue Department. so if there are inequities, it's the fault of those who are trapped in them--if they were more Filled with manly Gumption and Grit--if they were more like you, in short, who is obviously the Hero of your own private Novel of amurica---they wouldn't be in that position of disadvantagedness.

there is no structure in this cheap stupid novel that conservatives substitute for social reality: no history, no institutions, no class, no effects of class.

this novel is published by the chump press and distributed free of charge through conservative media outlets everywhere.
you may enjoy reading it, you may prefer it to the world, but in the end it's just a novel.

what's with all this class warfare crap damn i'm about as poor as poor can be without living on the government teat and I don't feel held back other than from my own moral limitations and the 50% of the population out there that want to tax me to no end to provide for fat lazy fuckin slobs that just wanna hang out and sell drugs for extra cash all this class bullshit might work well in europe or somewhere else in the fucking world but it don't have to be that way here unless you want it to or it suits your socio/political bullshit give me a break.

What's class is holding you back?

what are you talking about?

that the united states is a class system is self-evident. that wealth opens advantages that lack of weatlh forecloses is self-evident. that the children ot the wealthy are likely to have a higher-quality education than are the children of the less wealthy simply by virtue of the position they're born into is self-evident. that education is shapes not only one's sense of socio-economic and cultural options but also the sense of what you deserve in this life---also self-evident. these are indicators of large-scale, structural inequalities that operate at the core of the american cultural system. what this conversation shifted to for the most part, before the conservative inability to think in structural terms started being performed *again* and so send the conversation hurtling into the ridiculous void that's formed around shit like the bakke decision, was that race and class are intertwined in the united states and that to address questions of racism and its history at this point pitches you toward dealing with questions of class. THAT is a problem, given the reactionary self-serving nature of amurican politics.

class stratification shows itself most obviously in the aggregate...conservatives like to pretend that there are only exceptions. conservative thinking cant address history, can't address structure, and so has nothing to say about class stratification.

so you, scout, ask the wrong question

I think there is a fundamental mistake happening in this thread. Everyone is discussing what caused the problem and not discussing how do we fix the problem. In the end the question of fault pales in comparison to the question of how do we fix it.

Rat no one is saying the playing field is fair. No one is saying that everyone, if they try hard enough, can make it. What we do say that everyone CAN make it, as in the opportunities are there. Kind of like Ratatouille, not everyone can be a good Chef, but a good chef can come from anywhere ;).

Honestly I see that it would quickly divulge into "truths" which have little basis in reality but fit into social belief structures, such as the post which I was just typing against.

Oh, so now you don't know at all. You're just guessing it's cultural.

Pan, the thread is about reparations, so I outlined necessary and sweeping social reform in a racial context in order to explain why it was applicable to the thread topic. Okay? The truth is that giving scholarships and such to the poor would be giving scholarships and such to the descendants of slaves, and NOWHERE in the thread did I say ONLY black people. Nowhere. If this thread were about illegal immigration into the US from central and south America, I'd have said "we need sweeping social reform for Latino immigrants and children of immigrants", but I would have been making a call for the exact same social and governmental changes. Understand? I'd not be saying, "let's turn away whites, asians, and blacks... only let Latinos partake of the social change" at all, and you know it.

You assume by specifically naming black people I was excluding everyone else. That assumption was obviously wrong. Now that I've explained the position in the clearest way I can, we can move on.

No I don't believe I did. Unlike India for example just because you are born a poor white/green/blue/yellow/black/orange child doesn't mean you aren't allowed to move up the socio/economic ladder if you apply yourself and catch a few breaks. Granted children of wealthy parents have an easier time of maintaining their socio/economic status throughout their lives but there isn't laws preventing someone moving up. It seems your implying is because someone is born a poor black/white child they will always be poor because whitey/the man/whoever you wish to insert here is keeping them down which is simply not true. They may have a harder time than a rich black/white kid but the opportunity is still there.

As I understand it, single parent households and out of wedlock births have increased a lot since the sixties for both blacks and whites with blacks being about twice as many. Single parent (mainly women) households are now considered normal.

I recall several years ago watching a Bill Moyers special concerning the growing number of black teenage pregnancies. The girls actually were trying to get pregnant and said they wanted someone in this world who would love them unconditionally. The boys said they felt no obligation to support their kids and most of the girls were not trying to collect support from them.

It is an interesting social problem though, why so many women of both races choose to be single parents and so many men choose to be absent fathers.

scout--basically, until class position is no longer determinate of the quality of education one has available, this "opportunity" business is just hot air for most people.

you might not land where you started. the opportunity exists. you might be hit by a meteor. the possibility exists.

either way this pub discussion format means that data isn't allowed. maybe sometime we can talk about social mobility. it helps to have data to refer to: things are rarely what one thinks they are. this goes for me too, of course: that's why i like data. anyway, not sure how much further to go with this here, but we'll see what happens.

can we pay the descendents of slave owners under the eminent domain law??

Not that hard to say, "I don't believe in Reparations for one race, but I do believe we need to help ALL in poverty." That would be an opinion on the Reparations question.

You seemed and still do, want to focus solely on how we screwed the blacks, still do and thus they deserve far more.
Read the highlighted parts of the posts I quoted Will. Show me where you talked about how your definition of "reparations" was meant for ALL people in poverty.

Then say what you mean. There's a difference between saying "social reform for ALL people and not just for blacks, than to go on and on about how the whites and our government owe the blacks.


Again, point out in the posts I quoted you where you mention helping anyone else but blacks. Or point it out in posts before the question was asked and you waffled.

So how much money am I getting? That's all I want to know.

How much do you feel would it take for you to forgive our nation for slavery and the racism in our past?

I've been making the case for these social changes for years, across many threads in Politics and General Discussion, but in the case of this specific topic, reparations, the case needs to be made for the people in question. This isn't rocket science.

I'm all for social changes, I believe there is a huge problem in the economic structure in this country and with the world.

However, I will fight for feasible, fiscally responsible social programs for ALL in poverty and lower classes but that doesn't mean I'm going to argue for reparations. They are 2 totally different arguments and say otherwise is just foolish.

That said: flat out Will, Do YOU believe that we should give reparations to blacks? A simple yes or no.

Yes, there should be reparations for black people in the form of social changes that affect all impoverished people. That's as simple as I can make it. I don't support spending people checks, I don't support racist favoritism as you can't solve racism with more racism (see affirmative action), and I don't support simply leaving things as they are.

So the current welfare system isn't enough? Would it be fair to say it's a good start?

With an answer like that Will perhaps you should try politics?

You answered yes but then proceeded to deny and contradict what you had previously stated.

It's not welfare, it's civilization. Government exists, and it exists to serve the people in ways that the market simply can't. To say that the market has failed the poor goes without saying. It's long since been time for the government to take education seriously. It's not enough to cram underpaid teachers into classrooms with 150 students to teach the answers to standardized tests because we're competing with school systems in Europe and Asia that make ours look like a joke. Without education, we lose the game and someone else gets to be the dominant economic force in the world. So yes, of course we should have better schools and better teachers. And since it's poverty that continues the cycles of things like hard drug sales and gangs, the solution lies in ending poverty. How do you do that? Why school, of course! Education means, on average, a ton more income. More income means one doesn't need to sell drugs and can settle on a safer career. More income means your kids don't need to be in gangs to survive. The other things, community centers, job training, etc. all are smaller programs to compliment the education system.

Imagine an America where regardless of where you live, you're near a good school, a school with a very high graduation rate, and a high college acceptance rate. Imagine what that would be like.
I like to get things done, so no that's not going to happen.
Not at all. I call for a shift in government to help prevent the poor from being left behind. In the case of this particular thread, it's the black poor people, but in truth it's all poor people. This thread just happens to be about reparations. As I said before, if this thread were about illegal immigration, I'd be talking about better schools for low-income Latino families, but the programs I would be presenting would still be for all poor people.

Ah Will, Will, Will...... Can't answer a simple yes no question without trying to appease both sides.

Last time, to call it reparations is to single out only blacks and you know it. If you are wanting it to help all it is called social reform and programs aimed at helping all in poverty.

reparations - definition of reparations by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

It all sounds really really good Will. The logistics of what you propose is simply impossible to achieve. What happens when everyone over the age of 22 has a bachelor degree or everyone over the age of 26 has a masters? What's going to happen to the wage scale? Eventually you will have a bunch of doctors of insert major here living on food stamps because the job market cant absorb it all. You would still have this dog eat dog world where only the cream of the crop got jobs. I guess the positive side of things would be you could have a philosophical debate with the grocery bagger or person pumping your gas.

just how has the market failed the poor?

To call something reparations is to imply a positive affect on the black population because of problems going all the way back to slavery. My proposal fits that bill, therefore I'm in the clear.

Providing better schools for all poor children, including black children, would go a long way in making amends for generations of institutionalized racism. It would be a first step in compensating for whole lifetimes of unfair treatment.

I don't know why you can't grasp this, it's really simple: programs to help all poor people will especially help poor black people because black people are disproportionately poor. Because it would be such a positive force in black America, helping to give poor black families (among others) the tools necessary to move into the middle and even upper class, I am totally comfortable calling it reparations.

I've got it both ways. You're just going to have to come to terms with it because it's starting to become a threadjack.

---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 AM ----------

Hold on, that's a lot of hyperbole and I'll need a second to get back to reality.

Plenty of countries have education systems that put ours to absolute shame, and yet they manage to do so spending less per student. They have much, much higher graduation rates and higher college acceptance rates. Shoot, even here in the US we have schools that are able to provide excellent educations to students for a reasonable price, and they're public.

And under this theoretical system not everyone is going to have a BA, MA, or PhD. This is about opportunity, not giving everything away for free. My main scholarship in college was entirely dependent on my academic performance. Had I slipped below a certain point, the money would have disappeared and I would have found myself looking for a reasonably priced state school instead of a private university. This is about opportunity.

What I suspect would happen is that we'd see a much higher high school graduation rate, higher average grades, slightly higher college admission, but more importantly college admission that more accurately reflects the average income of an American. You won't just have the ultra-rich going to Yale, you'll have a higher percentage of middle-class and lower-class kids going, too. Does this mean everyone will have a PhD? Well let me ask you this: do you think everyone is capable of getting a PhD? Think of the kids you went to school with. Could everyone in your graduating class have gone on to get a PhD if they were given scholarships? If you're anything like me, the answer is "probably not". Besides, not everyone wants to be in school until they're 30. It's just about having that option available for very bright kids that without the money would be forced to do work that didn't utilize their best abilities.
In my experience it's exponentially more difficult to earn a better income the more poor you are, therefore the people in our society that get the least have to work the hardest to get more.

so, to be more specific, the JOB market has been unfair to the poor. you think capitalism fails the poor?

I'm all for the freedom to earn your own way, honestly, but without any interference with the market, too much wealth can settle at the top. I think the model of capitalism that I've seen in my lifetime makes it too easy for the rich to exploit the poor.

Edit: this is getting a bit off topic, though.

I've often wondered why other countries can do so much better for much less money per student than we do. It seems that the answer must not be as easy as spending more per student and/or paying teachers more. There must be some systemic problems with our society and/or school systems that have nothing to do with money. Maybe for some reason parents in other countries do a better job of insisting that their children study and do well in school.

I honestly don't know for sure. I've got guesses, but I'm not ignorant to the fact that they're colored by my particular ideologies.

It is really quite simple:


As long as people who have never been slaves, demand reparations from those who have never owned slaves, there will continue to be racial tensions.



Millions of people, black , white and other have come to the U.S. after slavery was abolished. Tell me why either side from that group should pay or receive compensation?

So how do you decide who pays and who receives? You can't. Not if you are going to be honest.


Drop this silly idea.

Silly black people thinking there are substantial social and economic inequalities, the cause of which (RACISM) can be traced back to slavery. Shame on them! Why can't they get over being repeatedly victimized by racism? What was it that the Gadsden flag say again? Please, tread on me? With a coiled up possum?

"Silly black people thinking there are substantial social and economic inequalities"



PREVIOUSLY OR CURRENTLY FOUND IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA:

- Black President of the United States
- Black Supreme Court Justice
- Black UN ambassador
- Two Black Secretaries of State of the United States
- Black Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
- Black Senators
- Black Congressmen
- Black Mayors of major cities
- Black Police chiefs of major cities
- Black Fire Chiefs of major cities
- Black CEOs of major companies such as American Express, Citigroup, Aetna, and Merrill Lynch
- Black Astronauts in NASA including a Shuttle commander
- Major Black Multi-Millionaire Maintream Entertainers such as Oprah Winfrey, Will Smith, Denzel Washington, etc.
- Black Millionaire Directors such as Spike Lee and John Singleton
- Major Black Multi-MillionaireAthletes Such as Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
- Black coaches in the NBA, NFL, and MLB
- Majority of of Athletes found in NFL and NBA are Black
- Black Heads of Hospitals
- Black Presidents of Colleges
- Black Generals in the U.S. Military

This doesn't even begin to encompass the millions of Black doctors, lawyers, architects, business owners, college professors, scientists, airline pilots, policemen, firemen, nurses, being judged by "content of their character" instead of the color of their skin.


Why there is still racism in the US (from all sides to all sides) at what point do you think that juuuuuuuuuuuuust maybe this 'victimhood mentality' shouldn't carry much weight?



If you can provide one person who was actually a slave, I'm all for reparations. A huge check with lots of zeros.


But as I said, as long as people who have never been slaves, demand money from those who've never owned slaves, racism will continue.

Poor people aren't trodden upon because some seek to help them. Black people aren't treated as unequal by some because some seek to help them. This "blame the people trying to help" bit really only makes it more obvious that you're not trying to help.

Your list doesn't make invisible the fact that there is a disproportionate number of blacks affected by problems of poverty, making up a large proportion of the prison population, lack of access to quality education, and the less quantifiable realities of systemic racism across the board.

one thing that the list does make visible, however, is a tangential contact with the majority of this thread.
which perhaps explains it's groundhog day character.

That list shows that MILLIONS of Blacks in this country made it with even less opportunities than are available right now.


The accusation of "ongoing racism" for the failure of so many currently in the system falls apart when you note how many people have made it (and are making) it on the same or less.


Many of those listed above came from environments even worse than those today are encountering.


It is a shame that all you have to do is cry "Racist!" to no longer have to live up to personal responsibility.

Believe it or not most minorities aren't helpless children or mental retards. Most don't want your help, your guilt or your pity for them. Like you, they want to make it on their own.

And how many poor people and black people did you interview before coming to this conclusion, pc?

So black people, uniquely, have a problem with personal responsibility?

I don't 'interview' people, I live and work alongside them. Surest way I know to get an honest answer from someone.

powerclown: "Does it bug you when liberals want to give you better schools and scholarships?"
Poor black person: "It sure does. the last thing i want is for my kids to go to good schools and I'm really looking forward to paying every last cent for my kids' tuitions. Those stupid liberals and their empathy. When will they learn?"
powerclown: "Hahahah, I dunno! Wanna go watch Sean Hannity?"
Poor black person: "Of course! Black people love Sean Hannity!"

Thousands of white people have been NFL football players thus all white people can be NFL football players.

And here I thought it was those evil capitalist conservative millionaires who also contributed to higher education and public/private institutions.


Since when do liberals have disposable income anyway for crying out loud!

If you want to donate, you're welcome to. This isn't about voluntary donations, this is about the responsibility of government to end the inequality that can be traced back generations.

I'm curious what % of those "successful" black citizens mentioned in an earlier post came from middle/upper class families vs. poor families

Again we already paid reparations in the form of lost limbs and deaths of the soldiers that fought in the Civil War, and a raised quality of life to EVERYONE in America, not just whites.

Those who were maimed and died in the Civil War had little to do with the treatment of blacks for the past 100 years.

yet another convenient erasure of reconstruction and it's legacy, substituting for it a version of the white man's burden.
how delightful.

I tried really, really hard to stay out of this conversation because it is nauseating. So I thought I would skip all the preliminaries and just ask the question that always begs to be answered but all concerned are too chicken shit to touch.

I want an explanation as to why the existence of urban ghettos and rural 'black neighborhoods' (they were normally called nigger towns when I was growing up in the '70s but, you know, that is totally irrelevant) is the result of a lack of 'personal responsibility' on the part of the black Americans who live in them and not the lingering results of reconstruction and racism? That's what these arguments always need to come down to so why do we stop pussyfooting around and cut to the chase.

What is it about black people (that is unique from white people) that keeps them so disproportionately numbered in ghettos and 'black neighborhoods'? Being that things are equal and all, you know. Surely there must be something, uh, special about black people that makes them choose to live there...what is it? Because if you believe that the perpetuation of these places is the result of a failure of the people who live in them to take 'personal responsibility' for their lives then you must have some equally simplistic views on the motivating factors that keep them there. Therefore, they should be simple to explain here. Somehow, no one ever seems to want to go there though. It's so odd. They think the snide road ends at 'personal responsibility' with no need to take it to its logical conclusion. Wow, how very conservative meme-like.

I beg to differ.

They have been told by well meaning people that they can't get out without government help. And they bought it. THey have been told over and over again that the deck is stacked against them and no matter what they do they can't win, without white man's help. And they bought it. Democrats, liberals, proponents of affirmitive action have effectivly neutered a race of Americans. That and the fact that 70% of them are born into poverty by absentee fathers doensn't help. They bought into a culture of failure and are wasting their time waiting for whitey to bail them out.

No offense, but you've lost your grip with reality completely. I'll tell you what, walk up to the next black person you meet and share your opinion. Let them explain to you, from their own personal experience, exactly how wrong you are.

Why don't you walk up to a white supremacist and share your opinion? Let him explain to you, from his own personal experience, exactly how wrong you are.



To answer the question, black culture is the problem.

Is this a serious response? White supremacists by their very nature are unreliable sources for even-handed information on race relations. They believe, by definition, that they are of the superior race and all other races (especially black people) are intrinsically deficient. They are a part of the REAL problem.

And a black guy off the street IS a reliable source for even-handed information on race relations?

You get the same quality of information whether you ask a random black guy or a white supremacist...i.e. not credible, with too much bias.

Why don't you and your apologist friends give your own money away?

Been there done that. Guess what, you would be suprised with how many agree. Now why don't you go and tell blacks that they can't make it without government intervention?

He'll have a better understanding of the experience of being black than you or I.
You're equating the perceptions of an average black man with the perceptions of a white supremacist. That's racist, tim. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but your opinion is racist. Instead of blaming people that are trying to help have you ever asked yourself if it's attitudes like yours that contribute to inequality?

---------- Post added at 08:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 PM ----------

It's a lot easier to believe that you're simply making this up.
I'll tell them that we're going to finally give them access to the same government benefits that rich white people have gotten for generations. I'll tell them their kids will get textbooks that were written in the last 10 years. I'll tell them they'll be able to earn, just like their white counterparts, their way to college. I'll tell them they're going to finally get the same police presence as rich neighborhoods in order to protect them and their children from cocaine and herion. I'm sure they'll be crushed. Whatever will they do, finally getting an equal opportunity to succeed? I'm sure you'll be there to comfort them in their time of need. :rolleyes:

Actually, your opinion is racist. You want to wipe their asses for them and tell them it's whitey's fault when they don't succeed. You are the one contributing to inequality by not holding them accountable for their own actions.

Give them your own money.

It is isn't it. Anything that doesn't fit in with your world view is easy for you to disbelieve. Wow, some black people actually believe what I believe. How odd...

Excuse me? What government benifits do rich white people get from the government? Can you post a link to them? Cut and paste the name of the program that only Rich White People can apply for? And you say that I have lost touch with reality. In fact this is the basis of your whole problem. You actually believe crap like this. There are more government plans to help poor minorities go to school than anyone can shake a bunch of sticks at. Name one government plan that helps only rich white people. I double dog dare you.


and can you name the schools that only have ten year old textbooks when next door the public schools ( I assume filled with rich white kids) have up to date, rocket powered, solar panel textbooks? You are delusional. All public schools suck. If you have access to money you get good schooling. Color has no part of it. Poor white kids in bad neighborhoods got to poor neighborhood schools in far greater numbers than blacks. And again, the issue is poverty, not color.
And its been said in this thread over and over again why blacks are proportionatly poorer than whites. Its due to black America's values. Blacks are more likley to come from homes with many kids from multiple absentee dads. Black kids are more likely to be raised by a single grandmother than whites. And yes, I would say it to blacks, and I have. And yes, some actually see the problem and address it. Black America needs to get up and take care of their own nuclear families, cause white america will not, and should not have to, do it.
The problem is a breakdown of the black family. If you actually knew some black people instead of talking about them in coffee shops with your liberal college friends, you would know this.

---------- Post added at 11:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

The sad thing is that he is incapable of seeing this. I challenged him to go tell some random black guy that he can not make it in this country without government intervention. I would love to see that on Youtube.

Timalkin you are confusing the removal of systematic roadblocks to achievement with handouts. If you think that Will is talking about wiping asses, then it's not any greater of an ass-wiping than the rest of us get.

Ok, I will play. What roadblocks are you talking about?

Segregation, health care inequality, and lack of capital thanks to the legacy of slavery. Enough?

Wrong again. Poverty due to chidren being raised by a single parent. If you recal, blacks had a lower poverty rate in the 40s, -70s and guess what? They also had a higher rate of kids being raised in two parent households. Get blacks to value the family unit again instead of being happy with "baby Dadddies" and things will get better. Sucks when you can't blame whitey, doesn't it?

Recal?
The U.S. census historical poverty tables go back to 1959 and tell the opposite story you do. Poverty levels for blacks seem to be at 55% in 1959 and have since fallen to about 24%. I'm not sure where your data is coming from. I also don't know where you get the notion that blacks don't value the family unit and are happy with baby-daddies.

You may not have noticed, but wealthier areas have better public schools. If we could elevate the schools in lower income areas to the level of schools in affluent areas, we would help to alleviate the inequality. Educational deprivation impacts a student's life catastrophically.

Being poor perpetuates being poor, you seem and being uneducated perpetuates being uneducated. It would be nice if the color of one's skin didn't matter, but the fact is that for hundreds of years in our country it did matter. Brown v. Board of Education was only 40 years ago. Think about that. 40 years ago, black students weren't even allowed into white schools. They had to attend extremely poorly funded, overcrowded schools. Just now the first generation of black millionaires is retiring. Reflect on what that says about the rate of rising economic status of black people. It's going to take a lot of time for the inequalities to work themselves out, if they ever can. Providing programs like increasing funding to poorer schools would help to bring equilibrium instead of us having to wait another generation.

It's not a matter of weakness, it's a matter of being victimized for generations. Just like the immediate effects of the Emancipation Proclamation weren't social equality, Brown v. Board of Ed didn't immediately grant an equal education to all.
Actually, there's no evidence that private schools actually increase student capability or performance. The data available, which I can't link in a PUB DISCUSSION (but which you can easily find if you google it), supports the case that private schools simply have higher percentages of students who would excel in any school based on their established ability and background. You see, affluent parents are told, by the private schools, that their kids will have a better opportunity than at public schools and because of the previous generation of duped parents, the test scores and college acceptance rates back them up. It's really quite clever. The one exception is catholic schools run by holy orders. For some reason, they have unusually high rates of student performance. Maybe it's the fear of god, I dunno.
This is a contradiction. Black people are disproportionately poor, therefore they have less access to money.
This ignores a very simply fact: there are a lot more white people in the US than black people. Looking at pure numbers, yes there are more white poor families, but when you look at percentage of each population, it changes radically.
Wait a second, you're aware of this? Why did you ignore that fact immediatally above?
My values are radically different than yours, but I'm fairly well off.
And black people are disproportionately poor. You don't see the connection there?
And black people are disproportionately poor. You don't see the connection there?
There's no such thing as "white america" and "black america". That's where the trouble is. We're all the same red blooded Americans, but some of us happen to be born into a system that deprives them of the same basic necessities. If everyone started from the same place, if we all had equal footing, then the exceptional among us (regardless of skin color) would succeed. Unfortunately, many exceptional people are born into abject poverty through no fault of their parents, have to go do crappy schools through no fault of their own, and are surrounded by drugs through no fault of their own. That shouldn't happen and you know it. We should all have the same opportunity to excel. That's actually how free market capitalism works, the idea is that each player starts with the same amount of chips, it's just the smart, ambitious, and capable that end up with a lot more in the end.

---------- Post added at 09:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

Conservapedia?

The root of the problem is right here in this thread. It boils down to a bunch of white people arguing over how much better they know the black experience and how they know what's best for black people.

It would be outright hilarious if you all weren't so goddamn serious that you all actually insist you know what's best. It's pretty condescending, don't you think?

So what do you suggest... not discuss it at all?

Personally, I'm basing my statements on the little bit of research I've done. I can't stress enough that it's based merely on a skeptical reading of Wikipedia, the census, and a few Michael Eric Dyson books and talks, so I'm no expert... but I thought that was the spirit of the PUB DISCUSSION. Besides... I never mentioned whether I'm for or against reparations, nor what form they might take.

I don't know what to tell you. If we had more black involvement, that might be a start. Would that set things right with you?

Did I mention not discussing it?

I'm not talking about the discussion of reparations, I'm talking about all the finger wagging by the self-professed "experts" on both sides of the equation here.

I never called into question the format of this thread nor did I single you out so your response here perplexes me.

I'm not asking you to tell me anything. I mentioned much earlier that we should honor our promises.

I'm arguing about poverty, simply bearing in mind that black people are disproportionately poor. I don't see what my skin color has to do with that.

Not everyone to post in this thread is white, btw.

Will, you and I share a lot of the same political ideals. The difference is that I believe it's better to let those with actual experience share their experiences rather than presume that I know their experiences.

Presuming to know the experiences of people whose experiences I will never experience is, in my opinion, patronizing at best and dishonest at worst.

After 8 years spending my days in some of Chicago's poorest, most crime-riddled neighborhoods, I still would never presume to know what their experiences are what their lives are like.

I'd be curious to know how you became such an expert on the black American in poverty experience. Would you share it with us?

Were you yourself poor or were you just living amongst them?
Expertise isn't needed to understand basic statistics. I know it's a common misconception behind the scenes that I pretend to be an expert on everything, but that's simply not the case.

I'm not shocking anyone with the revelation that black people are statistically more likely to be poor, and I'm not socking anyone with the revelation that schools in poor areas tend to be worse. These are simple concepts to grasp. I doubt you were dumbstruck to read them. Adding on to those facts that the poor are less likely to graduate from high school and get into college, and that marital problems are commonly attributed at least in part to financial difficulties, a picture starts to form. Again, no difficult concepts requiring expertise to comprehend or communicate. Poverty has been linked to criminality, and non-whites are disproportionately represented in our prison systems. Finally, a good and proven way to get out of poverty is with a good education.

So it's obviously a combination of black culture and liberal apologists.

I agree. I am just at a loss how one can so blatantly keep talking about helping all poor people, yet continue about how we need to give only a certain people reparations.

Poor is poor. Poverty is poverty. Help ALL people period, exclamation point. Allow ALL people the chance to better their lives, not just focus on 1 group.

I was quite poor. the place I lived in actually had holes in the floor that allowed us to see into the apartment below us. In the winter, it would actually snow inside the apartment because the place was so poorly sealed and insulated.

But that wasn't in Chicago's west side. My days there were spent merely as a teacher.

Since I'm not behind the scenes anymore, I can't say. I don't recall the word "expert" ever being used to describe you, though.

We do agree here. Of course, I'd probably be more petulant and less condescending in how I worded it, but we write what we know, from what I've heard.


What an odd thing to say.

-----

Just to be clear, this comment:
is based upon general statistical knowledge?

No one's said anything of the sort in this thread. If you want to bring it up again, I''ll fill up another page.
You were poor, so you likely have at least some understanding of the state of being poor.
Yeah, it's a bad habit that condescension thing. It's probably rooted in intellectual vanity, but more often than not here it's my way of walking the line in order to respond in kind.
Not even a little. I'd already formed my conclusions based on the evidence, but my arguments were being ignored. I really posted it on the off chance he might actually try it.

So they are stupid? Gullible? Lazy? Weak?

jj:

there comes a point in a discussion in a real pub where people have been drinking for a long time and the thread of what was being talked about starts to dissolve.
it's curious to see the same pattern happening in an imaginary one. presumably without the drinking part.

there's an experience of these debates that one can appeal to. one can know something of that general experience without claiming to know what's happening in the heads of everyone who posts, what particularities of individual histories condition them. that's because even a debate in a pub is a social phenomenon that's knowable at a variety of registers. these registers are not mutually exclusive.

the idea that to know a social phenomenon means that you have to know all the complexity of the individual experiences that pass through it, that are impacted by it, operates from a viewpoint that claims to have a definition of "expertise" that is not outlined (positions like this are strongest when they're not outlined) that is more capacious and therefore better than other forms of expertise. without that, there'd be no basis for saying anything about the "experts"...so the claim that there's something odd about the "experts" in this debate follows from the same logic it criticizes.


the content of that claim is that to know a social phenomenon is to know all the individual experiences. well, if that's the case then no-one can know anything about the social world without knowing everything about the social world. in which case all discussions are shuffling about arbitrary factoids and debates are shaped not by how these factoids are shuffled but by claims about the nature of the shuffling.

this sort of nonsense works best when it comes wrapped up in the accompanying claim that all positions but your own are patronizing.

this typically works best when the people you pull it on are drunk.

==================
to keep with the idea of drunken argument, now i'll do the same kind of thing i was just criticizing. discussions in a bar--real or imaginary--that exclude information from outside operate on the basis of assumptions which tip into prejudice structures (which is a technical term that doesn't mean what you think but i can't come up with a better one--dispositions and the images of the world that accompany them--ideas or pictures that order your view of aspects of the world that are distant from your immediate experience, that simplify the world and fit it into your overall aesthetic)....what can be interesting about drunken conversations concerning phenomena--o i dunno--the intertwining of past and present as it plays out across the american class structure (which you can talk about without knowing all experiences of all individuals who are impacted upon by that structure); the way good ole amurican racism--which has a history (which you can talk about) that was always from the start histories---the way racism has intertwined with class across the history of the american class structure; and what might be done to alter how that class structure effects those who are disadvantaged by it. reparations in this context gets for some folk anyway turned into a metaphor for addressing class.

for others, that shift cannot happen because they don't organize their images of the world in terms of collective processes like class.

this is not without interest because without claiming to stand entirely outside of things, you can pick out these images and do things with them. stick pins in em, put them in a row on a corkboard, look at them, notice patterns. then you can say: i see a pattern...if you're more conservative you tend to avoid social processes and their effects and instead prefer to pin the effects of these processes on some individual characteristic like virtue or lack thereof. whether the way that gets coded does or does not slide into racism is an aesthetic matter. or maybe a decorum thing. or maybe it's just a function of not being quite drunk enough to say what you really think.

to get there, you don't need to make arguments about the content of what other folk say--you just need to arrange how what they say is organized so that you can look at it. when you talk about what you see, all you're doing is describing a pattern. it's not a claim to higher expertise because you could do the same thing. anyone can. it just has to occur to them that there's more than one way to talk about talking about things.


anyway, in that context, folk also tend to normalize the overall system. at the limit, there is no social system, just a bunch of people who bounce around brownian motion style, their trajectories a function of specific gravity (virtue)...

this is kinda interesting to see---again---because it is the split between conservatives and others; this kind of choice leads to very different ways of grouping information because they reflect quite different aesthetics.



once upon a time this thread offered a variety of positions, but now it is approaching last call and the statements are getting simpler and simpler. but it's good i suppose that folk show up on their way home from other things who are not also drunk and who can look at what's happening. happens all the time.


well it's getting late and i have to be up early in the morning. don't want to be hung over.

Fair enough, roachboy. I see that's what's going on here. But before I stumble home, I want to be sure I have at least a couple of takeaways:

1) Among blacks, the main cause of single parenthood (i.e. motherhood) — and, consequently, the cause of poverty, crime, and all other social problems — is...being black.

2) Issues that blacks face in America shouldn't be addressed by whites...because we're white and we will never understand...and black culture is to blame anyway.

Did I get that right?

I'm really tired of this type of argument. We all start out on the same foot. We are born free in America. And the exceptional do succeed. If you take a set of black twins born into poverty, they are both given the exact same education, one decides to make something of his life and finish school, either go to college or start a business right out of highschool, move out of the "ghetto" and start a family. The other twin decides thats not for him, he decides to drop out of school, start selling drugs, robbing the local 7 11, and join a gang. Please will explain to me how two people with the same opportunities in life can have such different outcomes...I know it's hard for you to believe but people really are capable of making their own destinies wheter it's good or bad

Completely untrue. Kids in Westchester County have infininitely more opportunities than kids in Jamaica Queens.

I don't even know what this means in this context.

Sure. But if you take a set of black twins, leave one in poverty and put one in an upper-class environment, the path to college/better life is exponentially easier.

That's an interesting fantasy, rahl.

But I ask you this: what factors are at play that influence each set of decisions?

That's exactly what Will has been saying all along. I don't know why you keep saying otherwise.

Will's stance (correct me if I'm wrong, Will): The best way to pay back the black community is to improve conditions for all poor people (of which blacks constitute a disproportional percentage).

You got it exactly. I kinda wish I would have started posting in this thread in those straightforward terms, but oh well.

It's not a fantasy, these things happen all the time. I know that you liberals feel that nobody would be able to do anything without your help, but thats simply not the case.

Now i do concede that it is harder to make your way out of poverty, but not impossible. Otherwise nobody would ever do it.

And yes there are many different factors that lead to a life of crime, but FIRST AND FOREMOST is the concious choice to ignore the law.

---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 PM ----------

I mean exactly what I said. Everyone is born free and equal under the law.

and taking a set of black twins then seperating them and giving one a different set of life circumstances then you are changeing the context of my example. Two people in the same exactsetting can have two completely different outcomes regardless of external factors, therefore it is choice that dictates their lives.

Was there a study done on all these black twins? (Though I was referring more to the bit about starting on the same foot. Being born into poverty vs. being born into privilege is not being on the same foot.)

You fail to understand liberalism then. This isn't true.

I agree with this, as would most reasonable people.

Without delving too far into psychology, there are many choices made consciously, semi-consciously, and subconsciously. There are many irrational choices made based on one's state of mind. There are choices made out of desperation and out of fear and out of anger. If everyone started on the same foot, we'd all understand this equally.

Please do not try and tell me that choosing crime is a phycological problem.
Why is it so hard for you people to believe that people should be held accountable for their actions. Not blame everyone else or their circumstances for being a burden to society

What do you mean "you people"? I like to think I'm a man of integrity, which means I believe that everyone is responsible for themselves and should be held accountable for their actions. To think otherwise is to endorse, at worst, anarchy. I never intended to suggest that "everyone else" is at fault, or that "their circumstances" are the be-all and end-all of their fate. I don't believe in fate.

But I refuse to believe that these aren't among the contributing factors when it comes to the moral breakdown of a character that could have otherwise been successful and happy. If they don't account for anything, would you say it's okay to send all of our children to the worst neighbourhoods to attempt to prove otherwise? This, instead of perhaps doing something more constructive to make things better?

What would you suggest to make things better for black communities?

If crime has nothing to do with psychology, then why are so few criminals psychologically sound?

That's it. That's the whole thing right there. It's harder to make your way out of poverty. It's easier when you're not impoverished. We (err, I) seek to simply provide a less extreme playing field. We're all starting within 20 yards plus or minus of the starting line. I'd like it to be closer to 5 yards, that way the race can be won by those who earn it.

Anyway, someone find rahl some black twins and let's do this shit.

Ahhhh but there it is..... "The best way to pay back a certain community (blacks)."

It doesn't say HELP ALL..... it says pay back one race.

My argument is if you truly are wanting to help ALL, you wouldn't need that little phrase.

I have a feeling the Hispanic community would argue that they are disproportionately in poverty. So could some nationalities, some religions, and so on. ALL have legitimate claims. NOONE in the US should have to live in poverty.

When we add caveats like.... well if we put more into social programs it'll help this ONE group more.... is saying that the others in poverty are not as important. You can claim otherwise but why keep adding that caveat if not to keep focus on that ONE group.

I'm all for social programs with spending restraints and fiscal responsibility. But my question for those who like to focus on just ONE select group is this: What happens if the whites, Hispanics or whatever group in poverty starts succeeding and that ONE (the blacks) doesn't? Were those programs then "racist" and thus we need to do more for the blacks and make those programs race specific because obviously they were racist... others made it out but the blacks were held down yet again.

Do you not see the hole you are digging yourself into?

Yes that's it make snoody comments when someone doesn't agree with your point of view, that is a very mature way to handle it.

And my point is a valid one. I was simply stating that two people with the same set of circumstances aren't always going to have the same outcome in life, sometimes people just make bad decisions with their lives. It has nothing to do with external factors

Yes, that's it, take this thread so seriously that even a hint at humor is taken as disrespect and derail the thread. That's a very mature way to handle it.
Only with poverty it has everything to do with external factors, which you already admitted. Where's the harm in improving poor schools? Who is hurt by that? Who are you fighting for?

---------- Post added at 10:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 AM ----------

There's no hole. You're just plain wrong. This isn't a thread about the Hispanic community, this is a thread about the black community. Deal with it.

[QUOTE=Willravel;2638680].

Only with poverty it has everything to do with external factors, which you already admitted. Where's the harm in improving poor schools? Who is hurt by that? Who are you fighting for?[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]


I don't mind helping poor schools get better textbooks, improving their curiculum, but that's it. That's the extend of my tax dollars I want going out, there are already a number of failed social programs (welfare, medicaid, etc.) that people are taking advantage of and putting a strain on the economy. Until we get rid of these programs or atleast fix them so that people can't take advantage of them then we can spend all the money we have left and get nowhere

Leave the black community alone, guilty white liberals. They don't want or need your pity. Don't patronize their dignity by implying they can't do for themselves. Instead I would recommened a career with the Humane Society helping down and out dogs and cats aspire to better lives. If youre ambitious, become a veterinarian.

That's the centerpiece of my argument. I'd like all public schools to be good, not just the schools in more affluent areas. The other things—scholarships, after school programs, improved police presence and response, etc.—are all secondary to the school issue.

BTW, Powerclown, if I didn't know any better I'd think that you were saying "if you feel like helping the poor, help an animal instead". That's kinda sick.