timalkin

The time has finally come. The decades of affirmative action have finally paid off for black people in the United States. A black man has been elected President, and a large percentage of white people voted for him. Who would have thought this would be possible 40 years ago, or even 10 years ago?

The United States government can now completely end affirmative action policies that only perpetuate racism and stereotypes. Being justified in ending affirmative action is a long way from actually ending it, however. Liberal apologists abound, especially in the current makeup of Congress and soon to be the Supreme Court.

Have white people done enough to atone for the sins committed by their ancestors generations ago?

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Manic_Skafe

Is this Tilted Politics or Nonsense?

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roachboy

is this a joke?

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connyosis

Didn't you guys hear? Racism is gone now that a black man has been elected president.

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QuasiMondo

I told my nephew this already. An Obama presidency translates to one thing for him: He no longer has an excuse for failure. While it does not bring an end to institutionalized racism, it does bring an end to white guilt, as exemplified in the OP's post. An Obama presidency is the best thing to happen to social conservatives trying to bring an end to affirmative action.

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pig

I thought this topic was essentially just covered in another thread. I don't have the energy right now to say anything about this.

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ratbastid

I guess they have to find their silver lining somewhere, hunh?

Rekna

Did I go to sleep for 5 months and wake up on April 1st?

dc_dux

Angry/Bitter White Man Syndrome

Written by a black woman:

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Strange Famous

Timalkin - I'd question the term "generations ago"

A quick search of Wikipedia gave me countless examples of openly racist laws in the US which were in effect in my parents life time. I quote one case simply at random:

North Dakota
The state passed three Jim Crow laws. A 1943 statute barring miscegenation was repealed in 1955. An 1899 Constitutional amendment gave the legislature authority to implement educational qualificaitons for electors.

1899: Voting rights [Constitution] Gave legislature authority to establish an educational qualifying test for electors.

1899: Voting [Constitution] In 1899, a constitutional amendment passed declaring "The legislature shall, by law, establish an educational test as a qualifier for suffrage should such a measure be deemed necessary." (Legislature declined to do so.)

1933: Education [Statute] Law stated that "it would not be expeident to have the Indian children mingle with the white children in our educational institutions by reason of the vastly different temperament and mode of living and other differences and difficulties of the two races.

1943: Miscegenation [State Code] Cohabitation between blacks and whites prohibited. Penalty: 30 days to one year imprisonment, or $100 to $500 fine.

__

Racism, supported by law and the state, is sadly very recent in the history of the USA - this is not some ancient and long forgotten crime as you seem to suggest.

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dc_dux

timalkin.....if you want to have a discussion on affirmative action (not that there havent been many here already), I would suggest starting such a discussion in a more intellectually honest manner.

To suggest that AA has "paid off" because one black man was elected president in the history of the country, with a large percentage of white votes, is simply ignorant.

But if you want to go that route and proclaim that AA has "paid off", why are there zero black senators out of 100...or only two black governors (one was not elected) out of 50?

There are legitimate discussion points for and against AA.....being an angry white man is not one of them.

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timalkin

If possible, I'd like to have this discussion without resorting to individual members being called names, like "angry white man." You see, I could start calling you different names, but that leads us down a path that is not productive. I'm not sure how I come off as being angry just because I have a valid point that doesn't sit well with many members of a certain liberal persuasion.

Look around at the rest of the world and see how minorities are treated. I think we've done a pretty good job. I'd like to know when people think affirmative action can end. I say right now. The only higher position that a black person can reach in our world would maybe be the Secretary General of the United Nations. Seems like that's been taken care of too.

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Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

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Strange Famous

Affirmative Action may end when racism is ended.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Rekna

The actions/achievement/status of an individual does not equate the actions/achievement/status of an entire race. Your entire argument is flawed because of this.

Cynthetiq

why is it ignorant?

why not make it by meritocracy? The best of the best are the ones that get ahead. What is wrong with that?

When I work hard for something and am considered to be the best, and lose to someone because of race, how should I feel about that? How should one feel about bettering themselves when someone is handed a pass because of race? I say that is racism, but others say it is affirmative action.

Because instituational racism precludes people because they were born black, were born in the inner city/poor part of town? And that gets them a "go to the front of the line card?" Poverty exists in all countries. There are dichotomies of rich and poor, there is not a single country where everyone is equal in economic stature.

When people tell me that a poor person from a bad part of town cannot make it, and I see legal and illegal immigrants come here with nothing but their shirt on their backs and somehow achieve, I can't seem to understand how the liberal mindset works.

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ratbastid

Except you don't.

You're looking in places that are politically convenient, then.

Denial. Not just a river in Africa.

Sun Tzu

How does AA NOT perpetuate racism? This may have been appropriate 40-50 years ago, not now. If this country is trying to counter racism this only aggravates the situation. Just as Cynthetiq commented descisions should be made on the merit of work and accomplishment not any race. IMO AA is in the same catagory as reparations, its stepping backwards not forward. Should a majority of the US uproot and leave to compensate for Manifest Destiny? Barak being elected is a sure indication the AA should be stopped. Anything that fuels racism should be stopped.

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filtherton

Hasn't it been said a million times already that the folks who currently benefit most from AA are women?

Even if Obama's election completely nullified any sort of meaningful remnants of racial injustice in the whole universe, that still wouldn't be a good reason to dispose of AA.
-----Added 29/11/2008 at 06 : 03 : 06-----
Also, it should be noted that anyone who thinks that the elimination of AA would then mean that employment decisions would suddenly be primarily based on the merit of the applicants is mistaken.

It is my understanding that most HR folks presume that the applicant pool self-selects based on qualifications. This means that they don't have to worry about whether they're getting the best candidate, as long as they sample the applicant pool correctly. All your hard work and qualifications don't mean shit if you fail to conform to the idiosyncratic, nonstandard resume formatting desires of whichever HR person happens to be vetting the stack.

Sun Tzu

Good point.
Thank you for bringing it up. AA perpetuates racism and sexism. This last election clearly shows that past views of gender are outdated. AA promotes the very thing it is attempting to prevent.

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SecretMethod70

It has already been said, but I'll reiterate: one != all.

This will be a more valid discussion when the proportion of black and female Congresspersons and CEOs matches that of the general population.

We are decidedly far from that metric at the present moment.As an unrelated side note, I have to say I'm kinda proud to be from the state responsible for 2/5 of the black Senators so far in history, and the first African American president. That's pretty awesome.

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Cynthetiq

I can understand that position. But let's look at places that don't where we can compare, is there any? Closest I can see is European countries...

there are for sure more progressive right? do they have a more diverse band of CEOs? politicians?

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

SecretMethod70

Actually, cynthetiq, one area where I will agree with timalkin is that we have done a pretty good job when compared to the rest of the world. That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of room for improvement though.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Tully Mars

Umm, don't remember giving you permission to use my photo.

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dc_dux

cyn....is the college admission system based on a meritocracy?.....when standardized admission tests have a bias against minorities (as found by numerous studies)?....or when legacy admissions are given to kids whose parents or grand parents attended the university (far more likely to be white)?

Is it a meritocracy when white small business owners are more likely to get loans at better rates than minority small business owners?

Regarding women and AA....before Title 9 (an AA program) provided some level of equity in athletic scholarships, was it a meritocracy that boy soccer players or swimmers or tennis players or golfers had access to full athletic scholarships and girl soccer players or swimmers or golfers did not?
-----Added 29/11/2008 at 09 : 19 : 40-----
Until fairly recently with the influx of minorities from Africa and the Middle East, many European countries were far more homogeneous, with no history of institutional racism built on slavery.

BTW, several European countries have had women prime ministers.
-----Added 29/11/2008 at 09 : 27 : 50-----
I guess I should delete it from e-harmony....ISO "angry/bitter white woman" who hates moonlight walks on Mexican beaches.

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Tully Mars

I guess I should stop using one of my many mug shots when I sign up for on-line dating services?

/thread jack

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dc_dux

You never know....you might get an angry bitter ann coulter lookalike...if you like skinny whiny blondes.

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Tully Mars

I'd rather pound my nuts flat with a wooden mallet then sleep with anyone who even reminds me of man coulter.

Heard she had her jaw broken and wired shut. Like to buy that guy a beer or two.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

dc_dux

You're assuming it was a guy....and not one of those consenting animals (from the prop 8 thread).
-----Added 29/11/2008 at 09 : 54 : 54-----
Putting the focus back on the concept of a meritocracy.

I would ask again......is the college admission system based on a meritocracy?.....when standardized admission tests have a bias against minorities (as found by numerous studies)?....or when legacy admissions are given to kids whose parents or grand parents attended the university (far more likely to be white)?

Is it a meritocracy when white small business owners are more likely to get loans at better rates than minority small business owners?

Regarding women and AA....before Title 9 (an AA program) provided some level of equity in athletic scholarships, was it a meritocracy that boy soccer players or swimmers or tennis players or golfers had access to full athletic scholarships and girl soccer players or swimmers or golfers did not?

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
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timalkin

Do you think any disparity in standardized admission tests or college admissions could have something to do with young black people holding this man up as a role model?



When drugs, guns, and "pimpin" make up a huge part of the popular culture worshipped by young black people, it's small wonder that academics are not a top priority.

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Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

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dc_dux

I agree that Obama or Condi Rice or Colin Powell or Clarence Thomas may be better role models...but the fact remains that role models have absolutely nothing to do with bias against minorities in standardized college admission testing.

The bias in testing existed long before the role model.

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Sun Tzu

There are just as many studies that dismiss that claim. As for the second point, I don't disagree that happens or has happened- can you point to any source that shows its validity?
Im not asking that to be confrontive, I was not successful in finding anything.

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dc_dux

I agree that there are studies on both sides. I dont agree that there are "just as many." Everything I have read would suggest that the preponderance of studies suggest a bias.

The legacy issue is more of a factor in private institutions, but w/o searching, I agree its anecdotal.

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Sun Tzu

There is an issue, but it starts well before the exams. Mathematics, science, etc cant be biased in any one direction.

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dc_dux

Putting test question bias aside, might test results be influenced by the fact that middle and upper class white kids are more likely to afford to have access to pre-test tutorials, with sample math/science questions from previous tests, than inner city black kids?

A meritocracy or can money buy the opportunity to achieve a higher score?
-----Added 29/11/2008 at 10 : 31 : 40-----
And this doesnt even take into consideration the fact that there are significant disparities in K-12 education....a far higher student/teacher ratio in inner cities school and a far lower student/computer ratio in those schools than in predominately white suburban schools...an issue that has been addressed in other threads.

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pig

Just a side note - I think one of the problems with this thread, and the general nature of many of these discussions, is the manner in which they are framed. If you wanted an open discussion on race, the impact/meaning of the election of Obama on national race-related practices such as affirmative action, you could probably get such a conversation started by framing your opening statement differently. You start out combative, and yes I would have to say bitter/angry - and then you're surprised that people respond to it defensively or dismissively. I seem to recall many posts on ye olde TFP regarding affirmative action and its relative merits and faults, and you might that many of the more "liberal" posters might have opinions that would surprise you if you didn't start things off in the way that you have.

I personally don't think affirmative action, as it is presently structured, is a perfect system. I think it will have to be adapted as race relations and economic patterns shift. The root idea is equal opportunity and to state that ethnicity, or apparent ethnicity, has no impact nor correlation on equality of opportunity is incorrect as far as I can tell. Perhaps I am simply uninformed, but I never have fully understood the anger that many (predominantly whites) feel over affirmative action. I've never personally been affected by it, as far as I can tell - and I am definitely in a field where there is a large disparity between white males and everyone else. My understanding is that with affirmative action policies, race is one factor that plays into a job/promotion decision - but its not the only factor. If my work product is superior, I've always found that was rewarded - regardless of the fact that I'm a straight Southern white male, who likes bluegrass music and beer and football and all the rest. I also hate to say this, but I've also found that by appropriate networking, I've been able to take advantage of some affirmative action policies. Me, a little old cracker, benefiting from AA. Of course, in order to do so I had to work with "minority" people, but I've found that to be a strength instead of a weakness.

In short, I don't personally have the time to get angry over this kind of thing. I play the cards I am dealt, and I keep getting my shit done. I recognize that there are disparities in opportunity to education and vocation choice, and I think affirmative action policies are intended to help address this. I don't think the system is perfect, but I don't expect anything cobbled together by a bunch of different people with different perspectives and personal human limitations to be perfect. I think it should be reformed as our national situation changes. I do not think that if you thought that affirmative action was flawed but acceptable 1 month ago that the election of Barak Obama should not alter that view. Thus, this really comes down to the more classic affirmative action discussion in my opinion.

If a school system decides that they want to encourage kids to go into math and science, and thus they start afterschool programs to encourage analytical thinking in kids (Science of the Mind, First Lego League, Math Team, Science Clubs, etc) and they finally get a few kids into good engineering programs, should they stop the afterschool programs because they "worked?" If you're not careful timalkin, you're going to run into the position of helping to justify the continuation of affirmative action policies because they are obviously "working," if that's the level you want to boil this conversation down to. I think the situation is more complicated than that, personally.

edit: forgot a word.

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Derwood

Question: If an HR person gets two identical resumes, one from James Bradshaw and one from D'Andre Jackson, which is he more likely to call first?

timalkin

A large percentage of black children do not have fathers that are part of their family. Many black children are raised by their mothers or grandmothers and probably don't know who their real father is. If they do know who their real father is, he's probably in jail or has been in jail for committing any number of crimes.

Why would you study hard in school and look for a way out when you can go sling some dope on the corner and make a lot of money in a short amount of time? These kids grow up to perpetuate the same environment for the next generation.

This environment alone is not conducive to getting good grades in school and getting accepted to a good college or good job. The fault lies within the black community itself, not the system. Too many black people take the "easy" way out by selling drugs or living off of welfare and end up in trouble with the law. Plenty of opportunities are out there for anyone who wants to take them.

We should not accept lower standards just because some people don't want to put in the work to make the grade. I don't see how affirmative action is making the situation any better.

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pig

well, first I'd like to say that the above characterization of the black community in America is incredibly insulting. News Flash!!! Not all black people are drug dealers. Shocking, I know - but true. You're right - the adoption of Snoop Dogg (and I have to admit his live stuff with the full band behind him is pretty impressive stuff) for a 25 year old unemployed black man might not be the best choice. Here's the thing. The choice of Kirk Hammett for a 25 year old unemployed white dude isn't a great choice either. Or flip the races - idolizing fuck ups in popular media isn't a smart thing to do.

Second - I reject the notion that this presidential election was primarily about race. It completely takes one aspect and puts it in a vacuum, and throws out the differences in the candidates' positions and the frustration of the American public with the Republican administration for the past 8 years. I also find that to be insulting as a white guy who voted for the "black" guy.

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dc_dux

Putting the ugly stereotypes aside, IMO, you are looking for the easy answer and you found it.....its all their own fault!

No..it isnt that simple.

The fault and/or responsibility lies within both the black community that needs to take greater personal responsibility AND the predominantly white system that allows the perpetuation of institutional barriers based solely on race.
-----Added 29/11/2008 at 11 : 17 : 56-----
What Obama hopefully brings to the presidency, unlike his white predecessors, is the credibility within the black community to tackle the issue of personal responsibility (expecting someone to say this is a racist statement)....AND the acceptance within a large segment of the white community to reexamine the larger institutional policies issues and practices, including barriers that still exist in education, the work place, the financial lending system, etc. and whether AA as it is currently applied or some alternative is the most appropriate and equitable solution moving ahead.

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Derwood

or it could be that black communities have the worst funded schools.

nah, it's the hip-hop and the crack whores and the welfare