pig

Just a side note - I think one of the problems with this thread, and the general nature of many of these discussions, is the manner in which they are framed. If you wanted an open discussion on race, the impact/meaning of the election of Obama on national race-related practices such as affirmative action, you could probably get such a conversation started by framing your opening statement differently. You start out combative, and yes I would have to say bitter/angry - and then you're surprised that people respond to it defensively or dismissively. I seem to recall many posts on ye olde TFP regarding affirmative action and its relative merits and faults, and you might that many of the more "liberal" posters might have opinions that would surprise you if you didn't start things off in the way that you have.

I personally don't think affirmative action, as it is presently structured, is a perfect system. I think it will have to be adapted as race relations and economic patterns shift. The root idea is equal opportunity and to state that ethnicity, or apparent ethnicity, has no impact nor correlation on equality of opportunity is incorrect as far as I can tell. Perhaps I am simply uninformed, but I never have fully understood the anger that many (predominantly whites) feel over affirmative action. I've never personally been affected by it, as far as I can tell - and I am definitely in a field where there is a large disparity between white males and everyone else. My understanding is that with affirmative action policies, race is one factor that plays into a job/promotion decision - but its not the only factor. If my work product is superior, I've always found that was rewarded - regardless of the fact that I'm a straight Southern white male, who likes bluegrass music and beer and football and all the rest. I also hate to say this, but I've also found that by appropriate networking, I've been able to take advantage of some affirmative action policies. Me, a little old cracker, benefiting from AA. Of course, in order to do so I had to work with "minority" people, but I've found that to be a strength instead of a weakness.

In short, I don't personally have the time to get angry over this kind of thing. I play the cards I am dealt, and I keep getting my shit done. I recognize that there are disparities in opportunity to education and vocation choice, and I think affirmative action policies are intended to help address this. I don't think the system is perfect, but I don't expect anything cobbled together by a bunch of different people with different perspectives and personal human limitations to be perfect. I think it should be reformed as our national situation changes. I do not think that if you thought that affirmative action was flawed but acceptable 1 month ago that the election of Barak Obama should not alter that view. Thus, this really comes down to the more classic affirmative action discussion in my opinion.

If a school system decides that they want to encourage kids to go into math and science, and thus they start afterschool programs to encourage analytical thinking in kids (Science of the Mind, First Lego League, Math Team, Science Clubs, etc) and they finally get a few kids into good engineering programs, should they stop the afterschool programs because they "worked?" If you're not careful timalkin, you're going to run into the position of helping to justify the continuation of affirmative action policies because they are obviously "working," if that's the level you want to boil this conversation down to. I think the situation is more complicated than that, personally.

edit: forgot a word.

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