Paq

I wasn't sure where to put this, but it seems mostly political. My local power company started selling carbon offsets, $4 each...

Basically, you can look up how much your carbon footprint is, then buy offsets to make yourself neutral. Now, the jaded part of me looks at this like the catholic church selling indulgences. I mean, i'm all for a power company planting trees and doing things that are green for the environment, but this sounds like they are just making it 'ok' for people to be irresponsible. Instead of lowering the carbon you produce, they are saying it's ok just as long as you buy their offsets...

There are also a few articles on msn, etc, about how companies are now trading carbon offsets as commodities...

and i'm starting to see how this can be the next crisis in a few years...i don't know why, it just seems gimmicky and, well, like i said, selling indulgences...

Any thoughts on this?

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Chris

Baraka_Guru

Things have changed since offsetting began. It's no longer just planing trees to offset greenhouse gases; it now includes investment in energy conservation, renewable energy, and other technologies of sustainability.

This is a case of caveat emptor: Where is your $4 going?

Offsetting is better than doing nothing, assuming it's investment into sustainability. But, sure enough, there is much the average North American can do to reduce his or her footprint. Sustainability starts at home, but it doesn't end there.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Paq

dunno, i'm seeing a few people who suddenly 'feel better' about taking long drives or not carpooling or doing whatever bc they are now buying the offsets. I do realize it is more than planting trees now, but it's just ...i dunno how to explain it. I'm not against what it stands for and what they are doing with the money, but more about how it seems to make people suddenly feel ok about not conserving bc they are neutral by buying these offsets...

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ASU2003

I've also seen green pricing. Or buying green RITs (I think thats what they are called). You basically are paying the extra money to buy your power from a green provider. It sounds good, but I am worried that the people who were paying more for the green power (who live close to it), are now saving money because they are using coal power produced close to me. I hope this isn't the case though, and the money I pay goes towards the development of new green power sources.

As for carbon offsets, I think they could work if there is a way to pull carbon back out of the air. Planting trees can help, but putting it into R&D for other technological solutions would be a good idea too.

djtestudo

I don't trust them.

I'd rather just spend extra money when the time comes for something like a more fuel-efficient car or a geothermal HVAC system in a house that will save energy AND resources AND my own money then throw money at my guilty conscience and have it MAYBE go for a good cause.

Just like so many other things in this country, though, there aren't enough honest people to allow this to fail.

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"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

filtherton

My power company does something like this, though they don't offer offsets per se. You can opt to pay more in exchange for "getting a certain amount of your energy from wind power", which really means that they will invest the extra money per kWh you're spending in wind infrastructure. Also, though it depends on what happens in the state legislature, in opting to pay the extra money to build the wind infrastructure, the power company may be compelled to give you a return on your investment once the windmills are up and running.

Charlatan

I would rather have the power company charge me more and just invest in less polluting forms of power generation. I don't think I would be willing to voluntarily pay carbon offsets.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

mcgeedo

I have some carbon offsets I'd like to sell. Anyone interested? You can have my $4 offsets for only $3.50. They come in lots of 100, and I take PayPal. Each lot comes with a certificate of authenticity and a certification that I will use $350 less of my money to buy gasoline in return for your purchase of my lot.

Paq

mcgeedo...EXACTLY.

i think there was a king of the hill episode recently about buck strickland selling carbon offsets, then doing NOTHING with the money...was supposed to be planting trees, but why do that when you can just collect money...

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Chris

tisonlyi

Hey! Some people do corrupt stuff!

See: Energy Industry, Financial Industry, Media, Politics, Auto Industry, Organised Labour, etc, etc, etc.

I think a similar scam was operating in the UK several years ago... There are plenty of ads around in newspapers, etc in Europe for carbon offset programs. I'd wager the majority are any grade between slightly and completely full of it. Even those run by airlines, etc.

Still, it shows that people actually care and want to do something, it just needs to be regulated, checked and controlled.

Or, you could just plant a few trees yourself.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Baraka_Guru

So you'll buy a bicycle with it and ditch your car?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

samcol

This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Sounds like a snake oil scam to me.

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

little_tippler

I've never heard of this in Portugal but I guess we are way behind in terms of ecology.

I wouldn't pay for carbon offsets just to feel better. It wouldn't make me feel better anyway. How do you know where the money is really going? It's like charities, I am always suspicious. How do I know my money is really going toward that one specific purpose? Usually I'd rather do something locally that actually helps situations directly.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

inBOIL

If you buy me a new bicycle, I'll promise to drive less

But more on topic, I think carbon offsets are useful for encouraging companies to reduce pollution to levels below what they are allowed, although this may be better accomplished with a tax on pollution amounts. To be useful, though, would require careful monitoring, as well as adjustment to account for new technologies and products being manufactured. This leads quite easily to a regulatory mess, and I question whether this is the most efficient use of taxes to reduce pollution.

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And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

Zeraph

I agree. It bothers me on some level. Not sure exactly why. It will take more thought.

Paq

i dunno, i mean..i can see if a person or company PERSONALLY does something to offset their carbon emissions...buys from green plants or plants trees or reduces their driving, ..for a company, changing their office to paperless, adding additional pollution controls, maintaining a forest, putting money in green r&d, etc...

but to pay someone else to do it just seems lazy and irresponsible to me.

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Live.

Chris

filtherton

A general observation directed at no one in particular:

There is an interesting contradiction to be seen when free marketeers denounce the commodification of environmental responsibility. Specifically, how quickly they abandon any faith in the ability of the free market to ensure the effectiveness of the commodification of environmental responsibility.

It is interesting how untrustworthy and unreliable the market becomes when the subject of carbon offsets comes up. I don't believe in invisible hands, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't presume that they went on vacation with respect to carbon offsets.

Baraka_Guru

I think carbon offsets are fine in certain applications.

If I'm not mistaken, originally they came about in the airline industry to offset the impact of air travel. There are many (I'm not one of them) who need to use air travel for their careers. I think it's a great idea that they can buy offsets scaled to the amount they travel.

On the same token, if your home is energy efficient, you use public transportation (or work at or within walking distance to home), and you abide by the 500-mile diet, buying offsets from your energy company would allow you to do that much more to help.

If people can't give up their car for economic reasons, why not have offsets as an option to do something?

I think it all comes down to where the money is invested. I'd put money into this if it meant wind farms being built, for example.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

tisonlyi

International cap and trade though, that there could be a path to salvation for the dollar.

An enormous, completely imaginary system on both sides. Capable of driving growth in underdeveloped, developing and developed countries one and all.

An enormous addition of value to the world economy, which it desperately needs.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--