What did the Republicans do wrong? - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

aceventura3 · 11-06-2008, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

centrist is one of those perspectival words--in a gop that has redefined conservatism in part by generating a wholly self-serving way of looking at the political spectrum, such that moderates like clinton and obama (who is a bit to the left of clinton in words, but we'll see in action--clinton was to the left of clinton in that way) are cast as "socialists"...make it hard to have a rational discussion. you say "socialist" with reference to obama, and i just laugh at you. i say moderate with reference to obama, and you may well laugh as well.

when i feel like doing it, i lay the french political spectrum over the american: the populist conservative language of the republicans maps more or less directly onto that of the front national (switch the french referencepoints for the american and the match is eerie).
the front national is neo-fascist.

from that kind of extreme rightwing viewpoint, a moderate looks like a democratic socialist and a tepid trade union supporter probably maps as a stalinist.

it all works if you don't have the faintest idea what these terms mean.

but this is a discussion i am tired of having.

addendum: neo-cons operate with a view of foreign policy that has nothing---at all---in common with the blinkered worldview of populist conservatism.
for example, it is most unlikely that a neo-con would have thought, as palin apparently did, that africa is a country.

do you agree the problem as you define it affects both sides?

dc_dux · 11-06-2008, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I dislike McCain not backing Phil Gramm when he told Americans to stop whining. McCain's mis-steps made Obama look like a hero on this issue.

Phil Gramm? The fiscal conservative who led the de-regulation of the banks and financial institutions while in Congress then went to work for them as a lobbyist?

And you think he has broad appeal in formerly red suburbia?

aceventura3 · 11-06-2008, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace...the difference between "fiscal conservatives" and "fiscal disciplined" is the latter believe in a role for government, that government is not the enemy and the "free market" is not the answer to everything.

I don't believe the government is an enemy of the free market. I think there is a role for government in a free market - I consider myself a fiscal conservative.

Quote:

The social conservatives can win a single issue with enough money and scare tactics...they cant win on a broader platform.

How about school choice, I know many left leaning people and right leaning people who both honestly support school choice. We can do more examples if you want to ignore my point.

Neo-cons? We know who they are and what they represent and a diminishing number of voters share their view of the world.
-----Added 6/11/2008 at 06 : 17 : 50-----
And these three groups are fighting for control of the party.[/QUOTE]

Still don't understand it, so you may be correct.
-----Added 6/11/2008 at 06 : 31 : 13-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

ace...cool, blame the media and the liberal elitist of TFP.

It wont stop the infighting within the Republican party...buts thats fine with me

I am not blaming anyone for anything, I just made an observation.

new man · 11-06-2008, 03:33 PM

I was voting for Obama anyways, but I hate Sarah Palin. She celebrates mediocrity in America, is a fundy religious nut who believes the end times are coming, her family is a walking joke about the failure of celibacy for sex ed, makes absurd claims about executive experience for a state of less then a million people, gets huge sums of money from the government dole(oil taxes for everyone in Alaska, and pass on the higher prices to the rest of America), and believes that shooting wolves from planes has kept the borders safe from marauding Russians. Oh btw, William Ayers wanted to change America, Todd Palin was the traitor who wanted to secede from America.

roachboy · 11-06-2008, 03:36 PM

no, ace, i really don't agree with your claim that the problem of warped perspective on the american political spectrum is shared. i think the perspective i outlined is an entirely conservative phenomenon---by which i now refer to that type of conservatism which is heading at speed into the toilet, dragged into it in significant measure by this sort of thinking---which (again) is geared to appeal to a sense of identity, not to a thinking person who seriously weighs arguments. there is no merit--at all--to the conservative-specific claim that obama is a socialist. there is no argument for it. there is no data to back it up. it is not a claim that you make to folk who do not already share your map of the world. people who share your map are most likely brought to that because it is a part of being-conservative in that now-hopefully-outmoded way of being as a human being conservative and not being a thinking person who happens to find conservative arguments compelling on this or that issue.

i am referring to the LANGUAGE of populist conservative ideology--to be clear---and how that language stages relations to being conservative.
i mention this again because i am not interested in you defending yourself against a personal attack that i am not making.

smooth · 11-06-2008, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I don't understand what a "neo-con" is. Perhaps its like defining the "Bush Doctrine", something liberals just make up.

unfuckingbelievable.
if you don't know what something is, you just label it liberal?

why not look up the definition of "neo-conservative" and "Bush doctrine" so you don't look like an ignoramus?

Frosstbyte · 11-06-2008, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I don't understand what a "neo-con" is. Perhaps its like defining the "Bush Doctrine", something liberals just make up.

Let me help you there:

Bush Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Neoconservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The first paragraph of each article will give you a nice, relatively neutral understanding of both of those phrases. They've been part of mainstream political discourse for Bush's entire term. I'm not sure why you think "libtards" just made them up.

Edit: Reading through the Bush Doctrine page alone might do you well enough, since it includes a section on neoconservatism, of which the Bush Doctrine is a prime example.

abaya · 11-06-2008, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Interesting, how this seems to work. "People" say Palin was a drag on the ticket. The media doesn't like her, says she is a drag on the ticket, and polls show she was a drag on the ticket, but when we dig a bit deeper, we find that "people" (not all, I know some Republicans said it too) saying she was a drag on the ticket would not have voted for McCain anyway. On that basis Wayne Allen Root was clearly a drag on the Bob Barr Libertarian ticket.

Incidentally, I still haven't seen any Palin supporters react to the video I posted in post #36. I'm keenly interested in knowing how you can justify her NOT being a drag on the ticket, especially when even FOX News and people within McCain's own campaign can no longer keep their mouths shut about what an effin' drag she was.

Willravel · 11-06-2008, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Interesting, how this seems to work. "People" say Palin was a drag on the ticket. The media doesn't like her, says she is a drag on the ticket, and polls show she was a drag on the ticket, but when we dig a bit deeper, we find that "people" (not all, I know some Republicans said it too) saying she was a drag on the ticket would not have voted for McCain anyway.

How many undecideds have you dug up?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

On the idea of needing a centrist, I don't know many who would call Joe Biden a centrist. Chaney was not a centrist. Gore was not a centrist. Quayle was not a centrist, etc., etc.,...actually have we ever had a true centrist VP?

Obama has charisma, so Joe Biden can just be foreign policy experience. Lieberman was the obvious choice for McCain.

dc_dux · 11-06-2008, 04:53 PM

The war within the Republican party is intensifying....with Operation Leper:

Quote:

RedState is pleased to announce it is engaging in a special project: Operation Leper.

We're tracking down all the people from the McCain campaign now whispering smears against Governor Palin to Carl Cameron and others. Michelle Malkin has the details.

We intend to constantly remind the base about these people, monitor who they are working for, and, when 2012 rolls around, see which candidates hire them. Naturally then, you'll see us go to war against those candidates.

RedState: Operation Leper

Frosstbyte · 11-06-2008, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

The war within the Republican party is intensifying....with Operation Leper:

I've read a LOT of stuff about the backlash against people who dared to talk about what Palin was really up to for the last two months. Apparently no one thinks it's important that the VP candidate was openly defying the policies of her presidential candidate or that she thought Africa was a country. Those things needed to be covered up for all our good, but god help anyone who speaks poorly about her. The nerve of those people.

filtherton · 11-06-2008, 05:00 PM

Well, who cares about Africa. There are gays trying to visit each other in the hospital, dontcha know.

Charlatan · 11-06-2008, 05:08 PM

Of course there are a number of things that the Republicans did wrong. And many of those "errors" led to losing swing voters.

McCain had a chance of winning until the economy took a dive.

QuasiMondo · 11-06-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

The war within the Republican party is intensifying....with Operation Leper:

It should be called Operation: Sore Loser. The level of backbiting and whining from a political party that was so disciplined is stunning and equally disappointing. Instead of taking a step back, finding out how they lost themselves in a sea of hubris, and refining their identity and how they can reconnect with the American people, they'd rather engage in petty bickering.

It's apparent that this party has lost it's way. This isn't the way to get back on track.

I think I'll turn my Republican card in now.

roachboy · 11-06-2008, 05:35 PM

i think folk like malkin see the writing on the wall already for the kind of politics that made their careers possible.
i think shit like this "project leper" initiative are little more than rear-guard actions, ways of attempting to defend collapsing positions by threatening to inflict damage in some nebulous future.
that any shred of dignity heads out the window with the adoption of this tactic is no surprise.
we are, after all, talking about people like michelle malkin.

Catdaddy33 · 11-07-2008, 05:19 AM

I really liked this article from Salon, regarding how this was a Generation X election, never thought about that until I read the article.

A Gen X response to Barack Obama | Salon Life

Paq · 11-07-2008, 07:40 AM

great article, a rarity from salon life. I don't hear about Gen X stuff anymore since 'gen y' took over the headlines, but that is amazingly accurate from my perspective..

Derwood · 11-07-2008, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i think folk like malkin see the writing on the wall already for the kind of politics that made their careers possible.
i think shit like this "project leper" initiative are little more than rear-guard actions, ways of attempting to defend collapsing positions by threatening to inflict damage in some nebulous future.
that any shred of dignity heads out the window with the adoption of this tactic is no surprise.
we are, after all, talking about people like michelle malkin.

I think Michelle Malkin is batshit crazy and doesn't see that at all. But I get your point.

11-06-2008, 03:36 PM	#85 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	no, ace, i really don't agree with your claim that the problem of warped perspective on the american political spectrum is shared. i think the perspective i outlined is an entirely conservative phenomenon---by which i now refer to that type of conservatism which is heading at speed into the toilet, dragged into it in significant measure by this sort of thinking---which (again) is geared to appeal to a sense of identity, not to a thinking person who seriously weighs arguments. there is no merit--at all--to the conservative-specific claim that obama is a socialist. there is no argument for it. there is no data to back it up. it is not a claim that you make to folk who do not already share your map of the world. people who share your map are most likely brought to that because it is a part of being-conservative in that now-hopefully-outmoded way of being as a human being conservative and not being a thinking person who happens to find conservative arguments compelling on this or that issue. i am referring to the LANGUAGE of populist conservative ideology--to be clear---and how that language stages relations to being conservative. i mention this again because i am not interested in you defending yourself against a personal attack that i am not making. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-06-2008, 05:08 PM	#93 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Of course there are a number of things that the Republicans did wrong. And many of those "errors" led to losing swing voters. McCain had a chance of winning until the economy took a dive. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

11-06-2008, 05:35 PM	#95 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i think folk like malkin see the writing on the wall already for the kind of politics that made their careers possible. i think shit like this "project leper" initiative are little more than rear-guard actions, ways of attempting to defend collapsing positions by threatening to inflict damage in some nebulous future. that any shred of dignity heads out the window with the adoption of this tactic is no surprise. we are, after all, talking about people like michelle malkin. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

11-07-2008, 07:40 AM	#97 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	great article, a rarity from salon life. I don't hear about Gen X stuff anymore since 'gen y' took over the headlines, but that is amazingly accurate from my perspective.. __________________ Live. Chris

11-06-2008, 03:33 PM	#84 (permalink)
new man Banned	I was voting for Obama anyways, but I hate Sarah Palin. She celebrates mediocrity in America, is a fundy religious nut who believes the end times are coming, her family is a walking joke about the failure of celibacy for sex ed, makes absurd claims about executive experience for a state of less then a million people, gets huge sums of money from the government dole(oil taxes for everyone in Alaska, and pass on the higher prices to the rest of America), and believes that shooting wolves from planes has kept the borders safe from marauding Russians. Oh btw, William Ayers wanted to change America, Todd Palin was the traitor who wanted to secede from America.

11-06-2008, 05:00 PM	#92 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Well, who cares about Africa. There are gays trying to visit each other in the hospital, dontcha know.

11-07-2008, 05:19 AM	#96 (permalink)
Catdaddy33 Psycho Location: TN	I really liked this article from Salon, regarding how this was a Generation X election, never thought about that until I read the article. A Gen X response to Barack Obama \| Salon Life