LIVE discussion thread for the VP debate.
 

I'm really looking forward to see how Palin handles the stage alone. Here's a thread to discuss what's going on.

Enjoy

i think ill be tuning in as well.

Dont know if ill be chiming in while watching it though, we'll see.

31 min. to go.

Kind of jumping the gun, eh?

But yea, I'll be watching and commenting, just like last time. I'm making -popcorn- for this spectacle, baby!

Staying up late here in Iceland (again)--live coverage begins at 1am, we'll be up till 2:30am. Last week was better, since we could sleep in really late on Saturday morning. Ktsp has to get up and go to work at 8am. :( The great part about debate coverage here is that it's the straight live feed--no commercials, no analysis, no fancy-shmancy. Just the debate itself. I'll check in here after it's all done.

Well...we get live feed too. Just multiple camera angles =). And we get an 'audience response indicator' on the bottom if we watch via CNN. Everyone in the audience has a 'positive reaction' button and a 'negative reaction' button. And they report whether they're Demo, Repub, or Independent. So as the debate goes on, you can track the bottom of the screen and see the average of each of the three categories fluctuate in direct response to the candidates words. It's fascinating (and the foundation of my belief that Obama won the last debate: the lines clearly showed an advantage for him in all three groups (@_@).

It makes me feel like a big man to start the thread. I'll sleep like a baby tonight.

No, it's just so everyone is aware that's its here.

I REALLY can't wait for Palin to crash and burn. I just hope the moderator doesn't give her softballs or forgives her for changing the subject or not answering the question.

I'm curious about Biden.

I am going to try and watch from work but I doubt I will be able to see it...

What I'm not looking forward to, will, is Republicans defending her shitty performance.

Yeah, no multiple angles here, unfortunately... and I would LOVE to see this "audience response" thingy, as it sounds like quite an interesting social experiment. But I'll settle for the unadulterated live feed... counting down in 9 minutes. :D

Update! They're doing a different audience response this time. It will be uncommitted Ohio voters, ones by their own admission are currently undecided. They are split only among men and women.

Update: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/10/0...mp/#more-11389 is live CNN analyst updates during the debates.

Such a good summation: The election can’t be won tonight by Palin, but it certainly can be lost if she lays a goose egg.

2 minutes until Palin's first lie/non-answer!
-----Added 2/10/2008 at 09 : 03 : 29-----
hahahahahahahaha

FIRST LINE OF THE NIGHT

"Can I call ya' Joe?"

He should have said no...

As an initial note: Women seem disposed FOR biden and men AGAINST. Just during his introductions these were evident. As he continued speaking, both sides rose.
-----Added 2/10/2008 at 09 : 05 : 22-----
And it appears that Biden achieved a 100% approval rating with women during his last couple sentences.

Both men and women seem to approve of Palin's message equally. Numbers are more moderate than Biden's...not quite as high, not quite as low, but still on the approval side.

That wink made me feel nauseous. *shudder*.

Palin is handling herself well. She is very offensive, as was expected...but she's doing it in a very gentle way.

I like that they are looking at each other.

And then she winked... jesus.

Yea, I LOVE that they're talking to each other. I was offended for Obama that McCain didn't look at him throughout the debate.

I'm also surprised that Biden is being so forthright in his attacks on McCain. He's being careful to restrict them to McCain though...he hasn't made an attack on Palin yet.

She pegged it on the mortgage crisis...

I have the sound turned off and am watching the little CNN Audience response thingee ebb and flow like a brainwave. It's actually quite soothing.

Jesus. How many times is she going to say 'darn right'.

I keep waiting for her to dance a jig after she says "darn right"

I'm sorry to pull a Will but I can't get over how fucking ridiculous she is.

Everything she says is ruined by her "darns" and "hockey moms" and "jeeze".

I wonder what it would sound like if you took each audience line and attached it to an electronic pitch?

Holy crap.

WOW.

Ok, so at first, Palin comes out with this INCREDIBLE attack on Barack's tax policy that had me REELING. I was like 'whoa'.

Then Biden comes out and says YOU'RE 100% WRONG.

And he then goes AND YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION.

And she goes AND I'M NOT GONNA.

hahaha

Joe Biden starts speaking and the bars spike.

Nah, the bars are spiking for both of them. I'm not even paying attn to them anymore. Those past couple minutes were just CARNAGE.

Nvm...you're right. The polls aren't quite so high for Palin anymore.

Men seem especially vulnerable to the 'government is the problem' that she's talking about. They spiked up HIGH there.

Rofl. "He's got a DEtailed plan, and I'll give you some DEtails now".

Whoaaaaaa. "The ULTIMATE Bridge to Nowhere'.

Biden is not going about this at ALL as I expected, and I'm loving every. second.

Did she just say something anti-government in reference to the republican party. How surprisingly conservative. First thing I've heard thats actually conservative in 8 years it seems.

BANG!

(Ultimate bridge to nowhere)

Haha yea, debase. This is what the debate feels like to me:

Palin says something that SEEMS to be excellent and bring up a great point!

Biden smashes it down utterly and shows it to be wordplay or just false.

Palin retorts cattily.

Biden provides more substance and makes a direct assault.
-----Added 2/10/2008 at 09 : 24 : 14-----
Sorry my bad, this is the continuous feed on the debate:

Palin blames financial crisis on Wall Street - CNN.com

Is it just me or does Palin's voice sound much more strained now than it did in the beginning of the debate?

It seems to me that reverse demographics are here. The women support Biden and the men support Palin more.

Biden is way more nervous than he should be. Palin is still a moron.

Biden is as good as he is ruthless. Palins opponents in Alaska were pussycats by comparison...

"I dont want to argue about the causes [of climate change]"
Um, stupid, you need to know the causes in order to find solutions.

BTW, I'm colorblind and have no clue which line is women or men. Thanks for making them similar shades of green and not making them red and blue, CNN.

How do you read the analyst scorecards on CNN? I just switched over from NBC to see the live reaction....

HDCNN, Daval.

Same-sex issue.... I'm listening to this one.

I'm on HDCnn, just wondering what the analyst scorecards mean and how you read them

It's green and orange, Will. Sorry you can't make em out :(. I think there is red/blue colorblindness too, so it's not like they can really make it easy.
-----Added 2/10/2008 at 09 : 39 : 41-----
Neither of them approve gay marriage :(.

Palin still isn't familiar with John McCain's policy.
Ellen Challenges John McCain On Gay Marriage: "You're No Different Than I Am"

Oh, I can't see them. I don't have HDTV.

"I didn't hear a plan" - Biden responding to Palin dodging the question.

Edit: ROFL "The Talibani!" - Governor Sarah Palin

Biden destroyed Palin on Iraq. And it's not even finished.

Palin: "[Obama/Biden's plan in Iraq] is a white flag of surrender...."

Holy shit.

Who, exactly, would we be surrendering to?

"The trrrists!"

"John McCain has been dead wrong on the fundamentals [of Iraq]" - Biden

True.dat

As a note, will, that seemed pretty much what both of them said. It appears that all 4 of them have an identical (to me unsatisfactory) positions on gay marriage.

(In reference to Palin/McCain differences).

We'd be surrendering to Putin, as he rears his head over Alaskan airspace.

The Terrists...

How long is the debate?

I wish I could see the feedback meters you guys have... I'm watching a webcast since I don't have a TV.

About 90 minutes. :thumbsup:

Feedback meters clearly show that women think Biden is dreamy.

It lasts for 90 minutes if it's like the first one, meaning we're a minute or two over halfway.

Now she's sounding like Bush.

Even the "nuculur."

She's repeating things Bush has said on Iran.

And she uses appeal to emotions far too much.

This is gross.

That's interesting -- so he is apparently avoiding the perception of being overbearing and threatening to Palin?

I'd tear her apart piece by piece. I'd make her cry. Why? Ignorant hubris.

EDIT: YES! FINALLY! Biden knows Ahmadinejad is a figurehead.

agreed. she's definately going for that

Who doesn't love Isreal? It's so cuddly!

I 'm about to throw up...

Didn't Palin say she supported Hamas accidentally in the Couric interview? Now watch her state nothing of consequence about Israel.... oh, no, she wants to attack Obama instead of answering the question. "Our country comes first" has nothing to do with Israel, nitwit.

It's irritating, but then there are all the northern leaders that cannot pronounce the letter "R". It drives me up the wall. How many Kennedy's said "Chiner" (China) and Q-ber (Cuba)?... Dan Akroid used to mock Jimmy Carter saying nuculer as well.

i had a phone call so i missed most of this
what is she talking about?
i don't understand what she's saying.
isn't this a question about nuclear weapons?

Palin's lost already.

First thing Obama did when joining the Senate was run for president.

she's trying to hang with biden on afghanistan? why? she doesn't have the basic facts in place to do this.

this interventionist question is interesting---biden is at least sucking it up and not ducking it. this is one reason i was not happy with the choice, btw.

@ottopilot: I don't get the relevance.

@roachboy: Indeed. It's refreshing to see him take the question with a nod to being wrong previously.

The audience polls are vastly different now. Biden is maxing out with both sexes and Palin's pretty low with both, averaging the middle.

I don't think it's a landslide yet Will, but I think biden is in the lead
-----Added 2/10/2008 at 10 : 08 : 34-----
I have to say, what I like about Biden is that he is playing the role of both a supporter and an independent leader. Palin seems to be just playing defender of McCain.

And attacker of Obama.

SHE WINKED AGAIN!

"Gosh darn it!"

...I didn't just hear a shoutout.

On the other hand, the audience liked it :p

i'm watching on c-span

i dont understand this baroque non-sequitors that palin keeps dropping.
when she gets all populist, she seems to get kinda caught up in visualizing what she's talking about.

Non-sequitors, appeals to emotion, hokey language...that's what you have to look forward to with a McCain/Palin administration.

Wouldn't that be refreshing?

Wait a minute....

Palin is so fucking annoying. I have nothing else to add.

First I've heard of Biden's family. Nice to know Palin's not got a monopoly on emotion.

he just wiped the floor with her on this last populist "i'm a regular person too" thing.

this is not fun to watch at this point.
i'm wondering if "i love money" is on.

That was really emotional - I agree, totally wiped the floor with her there.

He seemed genuine; Palin seemed fake...like she was trying to hard to win "hearts and minds."

It was based on one of Biden's comment at that very moment.

Not gonna lie, I kinda tuned out the past 15 minutes or so. Information overload and I felt myself reacting with quite a bit of bias.

comportment wise it was more professional than i expected for some reason.
i think i missed some carnage (iraq)---it seemed that palin is a nicer person than i had imagined who is more out of her depth than i had imagined.

she dissociates well.
biden answered questions well.

This was the first time I've heard Biden speak. I was impressed. He seems quite vice-presidential. He sometimes went too much into specifics, but not quite far enough to his detriment.

Palin didn't embarrass herself, but her overall performance was disappointing. She dodged and distracted too much. She was too vague.

If you review this, I'd think you could say Biden is the clear victor.

All she talked about was Alaska and energy

Biden was easily the victor and was far more knowledgeable, however, Palin did not have any major gaffes or blank stare at the camera in confusion moments. I think she did what she had to do and has restored a lot of her credibility.

All she talked about the Alaska and energy.

someone is saying that sarah palin "hit the ball out of the park" and that "everyone should rent mr. smith goes to washington" because "palin is a female jimmy stewart" so therefore...


therefore..





um..

Biden the car salesman, wonder where he got that from, I can put you in this 500,000 dollar house on your 10k a year salary, and if you can't manage the payments the government will cover it for you,

Oh yeah rah rah go team!!!.

I will admit that she was a lot better then I expected her to be. Even so, she was still sub par. She had her moments though. Biden was still pretty tried and true.

Can someone please refer me to where I can do a post-debate poll like the last one?

Palin being better than I was expecting doesn't make her good. That's all I have to say.

Anyone have a link to a full video of the debates? I had class tonight and I can't seem to catch any spin free reverberations via the tube.

I think this is just what they are aiming for... it isn't too dissimilar from what they did with Bush. They positioned him as a down home good ole boy. Sarah is the female equivalent (only she may be the real thing).

I think it is useless to mock her for her "plain speech" and mispronunciations. It is just this that give her an appeal to the middle class. She is "just like them." She asks the same questions. She has the same accent. She has the same hairstyle.

If George Bush was a guy that people would like to have a beer with then Sarah Palin is a woman that people would like to go to a cook out with...

The positioning is quite smart on the part of McCain's strategists.

sarah did better than I imagined she would...

in fact I was imagining something like Admiral Stockdale and Ross Perot

Here's a transcript, if you feel like reading: Transcript of Palin, Biden debate - CNN.com

I'll admit I was young when Ross Perot made a valiant effort to get into the White House without being Coke or Pepsi, but I think I'd remember Perot flirting with the camera. I mean he talked to the camera, but I don't remember playful winking.

one trend that was exactly like the first Presidential debate:

Rep. attacks Dem. position, Dem. defends position
Dem. attacks Rep. position, Rep. changes the subject

People keep saying she didn't have any gaffe's but I honestly think her whole performance was one. She didn't go comatose and start drooling on herself, but honestly she barely managed to put together a sensible sentence. She reminded me of the Miss Teen USA or whatever making her speech about maps a while ago.

Am I the only one who saw it that way?? :P

I agree. She answered maybe 25% of the questions directly, and the rest were carefully rehearsed talking points and attacks on the Democratic positions. She changed subject so many times I could hardly keep track.

The Associated Press: Some facts adrift in vice presidential debate

Nice fact checks ;D

Honestly, my opinion for Palin skyrocketed during this debate...but it's still quite low. It was just ABYSMAL before this.

It's interesting that the republican ticket is essentially opposite what it was last time, archetypally speaking. Instead of having the folksy lightweight at the top of the ticket, the have the angry heavy.

Vote angry guy!!!

palin came off as really shallow and vague. she could not explain anything about what a mccain / palin ticket would be different than the current presidency. she just kept hitting with her talking points and it was scary when she said she wanted extended power for vice president. i don't think ignoring the questions and telling the moderator she wasn't going to answer questions the way anyone wanted her to did her any favors... they were too easy on her when she veered off topic.

I can't believe grown people actually mispronounce a word like nuclear.

And yes, she reminds me of a pretty teen making a speech in attempts to earn the crown. If she can be Prez or Veep, so could I. :rolleyes:

next morning: well, my basic perspective on this from a bit of a distance is that i think the debate was in the main done with enough seriousness and decorum that the theater of it was, strangely, kinda reassuring in the sense that it has been a remarkably shitty couple weeks for the existing system in the united states at nearly every level.

as a human being not roachboy exactly i am always split between the ways the social world make sense to me analytically and politically and the ways in which it makes sense to me as i go to the store or sit on the bench behind my apartment and look at the salt marsh...at the first level, i see ideologies and limitations that follow from them that--particularly the past few weeks--make people whom i do not really doubt are as human beings complicated and well-meaning and reasonably intelligent---do and enact stupid-to-vicious things and avoid the consequences by pretending that the world is otherwise. at the second level, i live here too, in the everyday world, and sometimes find myself at that level a bit freaked out by the effects of seeing the world analytically. i think alot of folk who work out of a more radical political position find themselves in this kind of position from time to time, and in the past the dream of revolution coming from a movement that corresponded more or less with an alternate possible world was a therapeutic one to have. but these days there is no such movement, not even the possibility of one. so the analytic dimension can collapse onto everyday life in an unpleasant way. i have found the way the campaign for the next president to have been playing out, particularly on television, to be distressing in this regard because it generates the appearance of trivia and stupidity and one-dimensional thinking and seems to work on the assumption that you and i want trivia and stupidity and one-dimensional thinking. the american political system spins itself to itself as a joke, and in a period of large-scale mutation it can appear to in fact be a joke, and this is not good--because no matter what i might think desirable as an alternative arrangement, i, like everyone, lives in this one, and there's a sense in which the process of mutation we are living through can come to be like that hyperbolic doubt which causes you to not be sure that the floor beneath your feet will continue to exist moment to moment because, in the end, you cannot be sure that it will.

so this morning, i think the debate was a good bit of theater for situational reasons--it was not a joke--and it could have been--and both candidates handled themselves well--in a context shaped by the fact that few in the bigger political order have been handling themselves or the situations they are facing well. it was good to see signs of intelligent life in a context shaped by reactive life.

i am not a fan of biden, not an enthusiastic supporter of obama--but i think it obvious that both are intelligent and articulate and--more importantly--are able to use their intelligence in an adaptive manner, to remain relatively clear in a shifting situation.

i do not see that from either mc-cain or palin.

but this debate could have been a farce, and that would have been an unfortunate bit of theater at an unfortunate time. it wasn't a farce---rather it gave mediated access to broader intellectual and policy differences and provided 90 minutes of space for actual discussion. that was quickly covered over by the idiocy of television commentary.

i think it's time we all turned off the tv for everything but reality shows, cartoons and sporting events.

The saddest part of the debate is that Palin did exactly what she needed to do. The winks, gosh darnits, and hockey mom references all excite the ignorant in America and will get votes based on these alone. What was talked about last night is so over the heads of a majority of Americans...all most Americans care about is if the candidate seems nice or in Palin's case, cute/enjoyable/feel good. Palin knows this, the Republican party knows this, and they set out to do it and succeeded.

Biden did well. He answered the mod's questions moreso than Palin did. The actual debate was pretty annoying though. It can be summarized as this:

Palin: Obama says this and it sucks.
Biden: He didn't really say that, he meant this: and also McCain sux.
Palin: McCain didn't mean that, he meant this: Obama on the other hand sux.
Biden: Well that is interesting but that's not what he said. He said this, and McCain still sux.

I hate how they have to defend from the other person's questions instead of taking more time with the mod's actual questions.

I do agree that she changed topics way too much and when in trouble would go to memorized lines that may have nothing to do with the topic at hand. But compared to the Couric interviews she did better which I think is what she needed to do.
-----Added 3/10/2008 at 08 : 25 : 56-----
Useless moderator, she should have forced responses.