Charlatan

I would tend to agree that the military in the US has been increasingly underfunded and understaffed since 9/11.

It was the day before 9/11 that Rumsfeld held his meeting with the top brass at the Pentagon and began the process of hollowing out the military. He managed to do this hollowing out to the best of his ability. All non essential (and even some essential) services have been outsourced. The US Military has been largely privatized.

So while military spending has increased (in the form of transferring public money into private hands) the spending on Military has decreased.

I think the US needs to get back into the business of looking after its own Military.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

Wait a minute...I thought the current bloated amount Americans spend on military was the embarrassing thing. I think maybe you want to rejig how the money is spent. To spend even more is ridiculous. Your education system is failing, your social security is at risk, you can't even look after your veterans, your disparity between rich and poor is making some parts look like Third World countries, and you want more spending on military? When your budget already makes up around 47% of the world's military spending? How much impact will more money have when your spending is already so high? What about your national debt? Between the U.S. and Russia, do you know who's balancing their books better right now? I'm not sure. But what I do know is that Russia's public debt is sitting at 5.9% of GDP (of which has been growing faster than most G8 countries), while the U.S. sits at 60.8%. There is something wrong with your economy, and much of it might have to do with your military. Is this a reasonable expense? Can you afford this?

I think you mean corporate welfare and corrupt socialism.

I don't know how American military personnel cannot be properly equipped with that kind of budget. Something is amiss. Is it corruption? Is it foolish spending? What is it?

And I thought the military base pay was raised this year in Congress?

I don't think anyone is in favour of it. Except maybe contractors. Iraqis might have a bill to pay, but America should establish a generous aid program. Along the lines of what Japan received after the war, but to scale, of course.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Charlatan

Baraka... the budget isn't being spent on soldiers and equipment... or rather it but it is being shifted to private soldiers and their equipment. Companies like Blackwater have sizable, well-equipped armies of private soldiers. Financed by the US government.

I wonder how long it will take before they come into play in domestic politics?

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

roachboy

the american military is underfunded?
on what planet?
not this one:

Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation: The FY 2009 Pentagon Spending Request - Global Military Spending

notice that the united states alone accounts for almost half of the global total expenditures on military toys in 2008---711 billion of a total 1473.

here's a graphic showing expenditures during the bush period:

Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation: U.S. Defense Spending, 2001-2009

here's a category summary which outlines where this obscene amount of money goes (by category. you know.)

Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation: The FY 2009 Pentagon Spending Request - Topline

this outlines expenditure levels of ballistic missle systems:

Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation: The FY 2009 Pentagon Spending Request - Ballistic Missile Defense

it's convenient to look at this stuff---the data these graphics relies upon is available on the website (directly and via links)

so i don't know what you folks are talking about when you say "the military is underfunded"---the levels of funding are grotesque.
within that, there's problems of allocation obviously.
but this system has been the mainspring of republican-specific policy regarding "free markets"---so you see when the state is buying ridiculous amounts of military toys etc. then everything's hunky dory, but when it moves away from being a patronage spigot for political allies of the republican party, suddenly there's "socialism"

the disengenuousness of the conservative position is obvious.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

tisonlyi

^^^ agree, but i think the spigot works equally well for both elements of the Property Party with two right wings.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Baraka_Guru

I don't know, but as I (and roachboy) suggested, I think this is an allocation problem, not an overall budget problem.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

tisonlyi

Factors in the near term and present:

- Roughly 1/2 trillion dollars per annum of debt servicing payments
- $700bn+ in defence spending per annum
- probable year+ long recession on the cards
- inflation officially at around 3-4% (more like 8-10% or more using older standards and measures)
- SS and Medicare about to be clobbered by retiring boomers
- all told, probably 2-3 trillion in bailouts and other dubious economic measures, via magicing money into the economy and piling on even more debt repayments - i think the debt repayments look like being somewhere near 600bn for next year? (The Fed accepting Junk Bonds and equities at the discount window? *shudders* )

Where, exactly, would the pro-military folks see the funds for further cash/debt-sinks into military consumption coming from?

Printing money? >.<
Borrowing more, pushing repayments even higher? >.<
Enslaving other nations in more traditional imperial fashion? (hey, it'd help economically! didn't interest rates in Rome fall dramatically when Egypt was conquered? Conquer Egypt, not Afghanistan! ) >.<

The end of imperialism usually means exactly the opposite.

(why is all this in a thread about Russia? *shrugs*)

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Baraka_Guru

Well I think it would be interesting to contrast the military expansionism of America to Russia these days.

I find it a bit annoying to hear American politicians morally lambasting Russia on Georgia when you take Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, into account.

This is a thread about Russia and our worries of another cold war. America's military is a very big factor.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Charlatan

I don't disagree. I think the money the US is spending on military overall (whether on the actual Military or the private military buildup) is obscene.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

tisonlyi

This is a handy summary of why I think there's a change of epoch coming.

This really deserves its own thread.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

smooth

I'm pretty sure that when people argue our military's budget isn't big enough, they really want more boots on the ground.
Unless those people are military contractors...but for everyday people they probably equate military budgets to necessities and primarily things that are troop-centric.

I think this flows from the discussion revolving around making sure we have enough troops and that they are properly compensated and geared, but the official response is that we have enough soldiers because our recruitment levels are being met as if the argument was we didn't have enough people wanting to work in the military. It follows that two rational responses would be either a) hire more people or b) quit sending what we've got all over the globe depending on one's personal stance about war/global military presence.

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Baraka_Guru

Canadian jets scrambled to intercept Russian bomber before Obama visit

Only recently has Russia resumed patrols probing nearby North American airspace; the first time since their collapse after the cold war. That they came close to entering Canadian airspace at the same time as Obama's visit to Ottawa is an interesting coincidence, if that's what it indeed was.

What do you guys think?

Much of the northern territory is opening up due to melting ice. It could become a hotly contested area, considering the potential resources there.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot