Americans are arrogant...
 

This sentiment seems to be the overwhelming consensus here, but just doesn't jive with my own personal experience. It's been awhile since I've been out of the country, but recently took a trip to Toronto and here's how it went.

I sit down to have dinner in the hotel bar and get talking to a this Canadian who puts 2 and 2 together and realizes I'm America. I do my best to continue our pleasant non-political conversation, but it is definately being forced into the political realm. It goes from how bright his kids are and how well versed they are in American politics to how stupid American children are and the American school system, and the health care system, blah blah mother fucking blah. I really tried to indulge him for awhile and played the "stupid american" bit, hoping he'd drop it, but I finally gave in, humored him, and challenged him on a number of things. This left him a bit speechless but that's not my point....

It didn't matter that it was Canada, this same thing happened to a friend of mine on his honeymoon in Ireland (but he's way left so he was cool with it). When I was 10/11/12 years old I lived in Germany and felt this from adult Europeans. At 13 years old..WTF??

Americans hear an accent and are immediately "where you from, what's that like, welcome....etc etc" How is it that we are the arrogant ones?

Not only can foreigners come here and not be treated like this, I would bet they'd feel comfortable coming here and striking up a conversation about how shitty Americans are right here in the middle of America, because it happens all the time.

Who's arrogant?

Human beings are often arrogant. Americans are rich enough to be arrogant on TV.

Arrogance can stem from insecurity. I can understand some Americans being insecure about certain aspects of the US, especially considering the level of patriotism that society seems to often expect of us.

Yes, the pressure to be patriotic is overwhelming. Theres a chance the San Francisco dump may not be allowed to be named after the president. Where, oh where, can my outlet be?

I'm being serious.

The perception of Americans as being arrogant doesn't have to reflect the reality on the ground. The perceptions come through the media via Hollywood and via the news media.

When your President says things such as, "You are either with us or you are against us" it adds greatly to this.

In the end, there is ignorance around the world and it shouldn't surprise you when you find it.

i think a lot of the idea of "american arrogance" comes from how our govt. acts towards the rest of the world and our tendency to shout "we're #1! we're #1! suck it, losers!" about things whether we are or not.

Perceptions of American arrogance come from other countries' insecurities and further fueled by others. Just look at the posts on this board.

The best way to handle it is to be the best you can be and try to educate others. For example, I travel extensively around the world. Every time I'm abroad, I am on my very best behaviour because I am representing America. I have done my part in showing how good Americans are and how we arfe not the stereotype. Most of the time, it requires very little effort and a lot of patience. Simple things like common courtesies, following local customs, learning a few phrases in the local language, all go very far. Locals love it when they see you are interested in their culture and show respect. Most of the time, I get, "Oh I love Americans!". Once in a awhile I will get a lunatic that will never like Americans no matter what. I just shrug it off, it's their loss. It has worked for me in America-hating places like France, Egypt, the West Bank etc. In the end, they may hate you for being American, but they always love your money.

People are naturally curious and will ask "odd" questions but mostly not from malice.

When a president completes a speech with the traditional "God Bless America" seems OK- if it is America being addressed. It is completely inappropriate to stand in front of the general assembly at the UN and conclude a speech that way. That is very arrogant IMO.

America as a nation is arrogant, that's not even a point to debate - but I don't think the individual people are anymore arrogant than anyone else (except when they all get together at a sporting event and chant "USA! USA!" for hours on end for lack of anything more inventive to sing!)

particularly if you have a myriad of faiths present. i'd agree.

is the opening poster talking about general joe blows' on the street or the american government?

there are arrogant people wherever you look really. plenty of arrogant aussies who think their shit doesnt stink the same way as americans.

ive met many chinese who think that their culture is superior to others and wouldnth ave it any other way.

it's arrogance coupled with self rightousness in my opinion. Thinking you are superior to another and being able to implement it...

...hang on im getting flashbacks of 1940's Germany.

take those arrogant people away from the sphere of influence and you've got yourself a perfectly normal person.

like cynths' signature says.. "you're either an asshole or you're not"

Actually, what happens is the cops give you a ticket:

http://www.thestar.com/News/World/article/463496

My guess is that officer goes home every night a watches Lou Dobbs.

there's either alot to say about this or nothing to say, it's hard to know.

my general impression is based on living in paris for a few years, off an on.
Americans--that undifferentiated category used to refer to tourists in tourist places doing tourist things--tend grosso modo (heh) to be parochial.
the clearest index is that "we" typically only speak english.
the assumption that gets *read off* this simple fact is that "we" do not think other languages worth the trouble to learn. "we" don't learn because we don't have to--"we" aren't curious--"we" is a nation of george w. bushes.

parochial can figure as arrogant, then.

on the other hand, sticking with the paris experience, if you can speak french you can have a fantastic time--but it's curious thing that, when this sort of thing comes up in conversation, "Americans" comes to refer to a category that is just as much external to you as it is to the person you are hanging out with.

so it's mobile, a synonym for parochial rather than a descriptor for folk who happen to come from a particular geographical space.

Oh my first politics post!!!

Well I am sorry my American friend this is something your going to have to work on in the future. Public relations.

Personally I don't think it matters what your country does, good or bad on the international stage your going to get battered by everyone. Comes with being the worlds police service unfortunately. A part of me is very happy my American neighbours invest so heavy in their guns because it indirect protects my ass on the world stage. But I also dislike how those guns are used sometimes, but hey like any relationship you take the good with the bad.

I don't think American's are arrogant. It is too hard to generalize everyone when your sample size is so small. I think you'll find that same level of "were better than you" attitude from most developed countries with educated people. The french think there better than the english and vise versa...etc



For me this is really simple, instead of trying to defend yourself against these views, i would seek to understand why this person feels this way. what events have they seen or heard that caused that view? learn why people feel that way can do alot towards understanding and growing for the better from both sides of the table.

And from that you can being to change policy and world views.


/i work for a Canadian company and 90% of my contact is with Americans. I don't find the people I deal with daily to be arrogant at all. In fact i find them to be humble and apologetic if discuss international issues..etc. Now if i watch your even news shows than i can see how the the reverse opinion can be formed with the wrong knowledge.

Well, I think I came to understand why this person feels the way he did. Its because he didn't know any better. His kids may have been little genius ambassadors, however, the depth of his knowledge went no further than "Bush sucks" and "Americans are arrogant" and "its children are dumb because they can't speak other languages", because that's all he heard and it was never challenged. So I obliged him....yes politely and respectfully. Treated him with kid gloves.

Canuckguy, these Americans that you work with that are "humble and apologetic" need to be slapped. I might avoid the conversation in the first place, but if we met...no way in hell i'm being apologetic on behalf of America.

and Roachboy, how is only speaking one language a reflection of anything. Were geographically isolated from all the other languages. The necessity isn't there. And who cares that the French can speak English. The only thing they use it for is to belittle Americans who can't speak French.

Seriously...would they have more respect for me if I was in France and spoke Lithuanian? Is it really just that I only speak one language? No - they want me to know French. So France above all other languages should be integrated into the American curriculum? or I have to learn it to take a week trip over there, which I'd certainly brush up on..just to get made fun of how poor my efforts are.

Let me start this by saying I speak 4 languages, some better than others.

The complaint with many people's posts are that we speak no other languages.

Which one do you want? Economically and politically we must speak ALL languages or we have failed in the eyes of the non-English speaking world. Are we not allowed to visit a place in the world without spending a decade studying the language? You don't think that's asking a bit much?

We are arrogant if we do not speak Chinese, but are curious enough to spend the money to go and experience their culture. We are arrogant if we travel to Paris in order to experience their (and possibly our own history), but do not spend 13 years studying the language beforehand.

The fact of the matter is we are linguistically isolated. It's VERY easy for the French to learn English, they can speak to English speakers any time, they can watch English TV, they watch our movies in English with French subtitles. They are completely surrounded by the language through their entire life, we get maximum 1 hour a day 3-5 days a week in order to learn. They are arrogant for expecting us to be on equal terms in language ability.

It's like showing a guy who's never seen a car before how to change the starter on an engine, then wait 10 years with not ever seeing a car again and expecting him to remember how to do it. We do not have access to the other languages as easily.

Actually, what I've always heard is that folks in Europe and such, especially in metroplitan areas, find Americans to be gauche and obnoxious. Which is not surprising because I find Americans to be gauche and obnoxious, too.

I hadn't heard the arrogant thing before. In fact, I'd always heard the opposite. Americans think that Europeans are arrogant - and it's most likely because they are reacting to what they see as gauche and obnoxious.

And I've seen plenty of Americans right here at the TFP saying what they don't like about one kind of tourist or another, so I really don't think we have a lot of room to whine about it.

American schools can be bad, the health care system does indeed suck, but then again, nationalism and national identity have a negative component.
For example, anglophone Canada, for historical and geographical reasons, defines itself against America. Since the two countries -- or at least the anglophone parts of each -- share so much, the differences that are there tend to be played up. In Quebec it's not such an issue because they speak French -- and because they define themselves against anglophone Canadians & the French.

There are similar things going on between the UK and Ireland (and it's much nastier), NZ and Australia, every E. Asian nation and China, and in the Spanish speaking world.

The annoying thing about a lot of this is that it makes the political events into an issue of national identity. To go back to the Canadian example, Canadians don't have a good health care system because they are inherently wiser than Americans. They have one as the outcome of a political struggle which continues to this day. It's not too difficult imagining an America where FDR, Truman, or LBJ had pushed a national health scheme through, or a Canada where Tommy Douglas had lost.

The arrogance thing comes with the way the nation presents itself.

For example - in this country, we have had a Prevention of Terrorism Act for many years.

In your country you have a PATRIOT Act.

We have the Disability Discrimination Act.

You have the Americans With Disabilities Act.

At a sporting event, the english will sing "God Save The Queen" or "Jerusalem" - you chant "You Ess Ay" over and over again.

We know you're richer than the rest of us. We know you've a bigger military than the rest of us, but it really pisses the rest of the world off that your nation (which don't get me wrong has many many redeeming features and many great people in) as a whole seems to try to tell the rest of the world how to do stuff.

At least when my country tried to tell the rest of the world how to do stuff, we actually were running 1/4 of the planet.

lol see now this is why some people think you are arrogant. But hey, at least you know your smarter and better than those people eh!!!

So, you're fine with people who come here and don't speak English, right?

of course - but I think know where your heading with this. It's totally different to come here to live, with no intention of learning the language, and expecting the culture accommodate your own indifference.

I agree with what Charlatan had to say about this.

As for my personal experience, with individual americans, I would not say arrogant.

I would say that americans come off as confident and assertive, and sometimes (on a more negative edge), loud and boisterous.

I have american friends and I get on well with them. I find that mostly they are quite curious about other cultures and are actually wary of being thought of as arrogant.

In Portugal particularly, people like foreigners and will go out of their way to be nice to them, mostly. We like to be welcoming to tourists generally and are curious also about meeting people from other parts of the world.

I agree to a point. The USA's 'perceived persona' is one of nauseating patriotism, condescension and insularity. This is down to a great many things including presidential speeches, foreign policy, and naming a national football contest 'the world series'.

However, anybody from the rest of the world who is naive enough to think this stereotype is true for every American citizen is just as ignorant as the stereotype they so dislike.

As for not speaking other languages, it pisses me off when British emigrate to Spain and don't bother to learn a word of Spanish, live in a community of purely other British people, open 'fish and chip' shops so it's like they never actually left Britain, then have the nerve to complain that there's 'too many foreigners' in Britain and they've ruined its national identity. At the same time it pisses me off when people come to England and do not bother to learn English or integrate with the people already living here. I have a friend who's parents immigrated from Pakistan about 30 years ago, and her mother can still only speak a few words of English and takes a very dim view of traditional western/white culture.

I think if you are visiting a country, it's only good manners to learn a bit about local culture, customs and language. After all, isn't that what makes visiting other countries fun?

You get dick heads in every walk of life, in every country, every race and every religion. That's people for you.

The irony is that it's typically the most uneducated Americans that are so patriotic and arrogant. Perhaps that's because they're not smart enough to realize all the reasons why they shouldn't be.

I'm an American, but I consider us a terrorist nation under the Bush regime. If China or Russia invaded a country unjustly and threatened to do the same to other countries, they'd be considered terrorist nations, yes? Fair enough.

Actually no, they wouldn't be considered terrorist nations. There's a very strict definition of "terrorist nation", and invasion of another country doesn't qualify. A "terrorist nation" uses state funds and resources to enable individuals or small groups to attack enemy resources and citizens. That's why Israel doesn't qualify as a terrorist nation (they use their military to fight terrorists) and Columbia does (they fund right-wing paramilitary groups to fight the FARC).

To answer the OP, I'm an American and it really is a situational issue. It depends on where I am, what I'm wearing and who I'm talking to. If I'm in Paris wearing shorts, a golf shirt and a floppy hat with a camera around my neck, people may make assumptions. If I'm hanging out on a train between Ekaterinaburg and Irkuskt and buying beers and vodka while hosting a party in my room, the response is going to be much different and people will actually ASK me what I think rather than assuming.

The inverse of this is host's "Canadians and other visitors: why don't you tip properly?" thread (I don't feel like looking it up, so the title might be different). He assumed that foreigners don't tip will - and a lot of them don't - but there are lots of cases where he's wrong to make any assumptions. And if that's the one thing life has taught me thus far - don't make assumptions about people; you'll almost always be wrong.

Actually, that would be the Superbowl. And when the World Series received its name, all of the world's baseball teams were in America.

What about planet Earth so callously calling a beauty pageant Miss Universe? Shame on Gaia!

I think perceptions on both sides of the tourist are a little skewed. Most Americans who travel to France go to Paris. Some may venture to wine producing regions, or Lyon for the food, but most get a big city experience. Big cities tend to be filled with rude people, brought on by years of traffic jams, crowded sidewalks, long waits in line, crime. Tourists who stick out in DC get pretty much the same treatment.

On the other hand, there are those tourists who want to have a great adventure overseas, and then book a comprehensive trip where all their meals are provided, english is spoken, they're on a bus with a bunch of other Americans most of the time, and their schedule is pre-determined. I tend to believe agencies who put together those trips intend to provide as homogenous adventure as possible.

As far as not apologizing for America, our president may wear his ass as a hat, but Nicolas Negroponte - an American whose parents immgrated from Greece - brought the One Laptop Per Child mission to fruition.

And was sued by Nigeria for his efforts. Nigerians are the real assholes of the world.

Boosterish patriotism is annoying and can/is perceived to be arrogant. I have worked with Americans on a regular basis in the consulting field for over 20 yrs and have never had to deal with individual arrogance beyond personality differences which are no different than the Europeans or other Canadians that I have worked with.

You, Matthew are arrogant in suggesting that your country men should be slapped about for their stance. That, my friend, stinks of McCarthyism and is the antithesis of what we all admire the USA for in the first place. In fact the boosterish nationalism recently displayed by Chinese nationals (when confronted about the Tibet issue in the past few months) is just as cloyingly arrogant and should be self examined.

I for one am appalled at the arrogance of that Torontonian that you were subjected to over dinner. The crap coming out of his mouth is nothing but hubris, and should have been checked at the door.

Interesting. Since when did we geographically disconnect from both Mexico and Canada (Quebec)?

Being monolingual is a reflection of cultural isolation. It doesn't make you an asshole if you only speak English, but if you insist that English is the only language necessary for functioning in a global arena and that you simply don't need to learn anyone else's language (as long as they learn yours), then yes, you have become both an idiot and an asshole, in my opinion. Not saying that you said that, but plenty of Americans do believe that, whether implicitly or not.

There is also nothing wrong with living as a "humble" American. This country has perpetuated a shitload of wrongs on the rest of the world, and I'm talking about the last 100+ years, not just the last 5. If the US wants to regain its global "moral superiority" (if that ever existed), it could do worse than to cultivate a more accurate reality regarding its history in the world, and exactly how much damage its actions have incurred, and to quit having such a grandiose sense of entitlement.

I predict you will make a fortune with your method of instantly producing fluency in English with a simple press of a button.

My wife's grandmother only speaks Ukrainian. She tried to learn English but could never master it. Apparently, she can speak a few words, but not really enough to get by on. She came here after getting out of Dachau. I'll make sure to pass along your sentiments.

and there's a bit of unnecessary drama!

If she's happy here, she gets by on what she can then great, I don't have a problem with that either. Feel free to pass that along to her in your own Shakespearian way.

Well, which is it, Matthew330? Here's someone who came here and expected the culture to bend to her. You already said you have a problem with that. Now you say you don't. Which is it?

Drama? Hardly. At least I'm consistent. You're going to have a very hard time saying the same.

abaya, not being a world traveler English is the only language necessary for functioning in Kansas, or Utah, or Michigan, or, or, or, or.. .you get my drift. Interestingly enough, in a place like northern Virginia, you almost have to know Spanish. And I am geographically disconnected fromboth Quebec AND mexico, so I really don't know what you want. When being confronted in the manner I was, and friends have been when travelling abroad - I, as an American, am clearly not the one with a "moral superiority". So I'm only going to sit there for so long listening to that horseshit for so long. The thought of "some people" finding themselves in the same situation and feeding into that mentality, as misguided as it is, sickens me. It took all of 3 minutes of me challenging him before this dude was like "oh, uhh...let's change the subject".

No if you have a political point, offer a discussion, and I'm clearly receptive and you've got more to offer than what this jerkoff did.....then that's just great.

And Daniel and the Nightfly, that sounds so childish and pathetic. You get angry because people yell USA (and can't even bring yourself to type it) at a sports arena occasionally. I just can't help you. Continue your angry, pissed off lives.

I'm consistent. Nope - not hard at all.

Ready.

Manifest Destiny, The Turner/Frontier Thesis, Freedom Fries, Patriot Toast, Gitmo, Iraq, Fox News, 23 months of presidential posturing, CNN, foreign affairs and policy, Cuba, driving two states into the US and having people say "New Brunswick? All the way from Jersey?", oil, U-S-A, sporting events, your military, your media, your culture, "is he a mexican?", "man it must be cold up there (in july)", etc.

Your nation tends to put itself at the forefront for everything, and then expects when things go bad, for people to look aside. It's a lack of political accountability, and at least a little, if not a lot, arrogance to make this possible. And even though it isn't (or shouldn't be), it's become an international joke. It doesn't make you or the individuals of your country that; not even close. But the way you allow yourselves to be presented is all we see. And because of that, that's why we're here. That's how I feel.

You are completely proving the point that your opposition is making with your first couple sentences. "I live in Kansas so why the hell do I need to understand you". Arrogant.

Sorry but that pisses me off.

What's even worse is you continue to say "I'm receptive" and follow with "that's dumb though, so fuck you." That's not diplomacy, that's fucking ignorant. Consider, perhaps, that people feel that American's are ignorant because you feel you must be the authority on all that is, as well as continuing to feel that you constantly hold the moral high ground. Consult my first two points in my list. They agree with me.

I'm sorry - this seems stunningly parochial. You are geographically disconnected from two interesting foreign countries that you can drive to in a car? Can anyone explain this?

I consider myself to be part of the same geographical continuity as Iceland in the North West, Spain in the South West, Greece and Turkey in the South East, Finland and Russia in the North East. I am European - we have over 2 dozen countries, nearly as many languages and I have to cross the sea to get to almost all of it.

As for getting angry - I'm not angry - I typed it out phonetically to emphasise the fact that after a while it just becomes so much noise - there's no patriotism (to the external observer) it's verging on fervent cultish behaviour.

I like "Who's Line is it Anyway" - it's a great British TV show, based on an old Radio show. There's a round where they pick names from a hat. In the British version, they use a nondescript brown or black hat (a trilby I think in some episodes).

When the show was sold to the States, they use a hat that has been stolen from an Uncle Sam recruiting poster.

Your President wears his flag on his lapel, like he's frightened he'll forget where he's president of.

Your country refuses to take part in international arrangements to set up a war crimes court, and then wonders why nobody else on earth approves of the Gitmo war crimes trials.

This goes on and on and on.

Please don't accuse me of anger - I feel sadness. America is a great country. Some of the people I care most about are American. I love American culture, i read American books, watch American shows, watch American movies, listen to American music.

I don't get American sports, and wonder why you can't see how much better F1 is compared to Indy racing, but that's not anger.

What I see in America is what I see in reading history about the British Empire of the 1920's. You have the facility to control so many things in the world and influence them for good, but you're living high on the hog, and not realising that the people you think should love you actually want what you've got and will take it from you.

I don't want to see the US got through the pain that the UK did after WWII, but I fear it's coming in a generation.

What the fuck is Patriot Toast? What fucking newspaper do you read where you hear shit like this that I haven't even heard? Settle down with that. THAT is xenophobic.

" You are geographically disconnected from two interesting foreign countries that you can drive to in a car? Can anyone explain this?"
..and..

"You are completely proving the point that your opposition is making with your first couple sentences. "I live in Kansas so why the hell do I need to understand you". Arrogant."

As a European, in one day, you can drive a car through probably 4 different countries speaking 4 different languages. Punkrock Person and Daniel, it stands to reason that Europeans would know more than one language. You are putting yourselves on a moral high ground, by suggesting that a farmer in Kansas should learn French or Mexican because he is within a 4 day drive of Mexico and Canada. Though he'll probably NEVER go there. And it's also dishonest of you to suggest that if more English people speak speak German or Dutch, it's because they have this intellectual curiosity about cultures other than there own.

As an FYI, your not allowed to call something" the Sea", if you can cross by train.

Spanish, genius. The language of Mexico is Spanish. Not Mexican. Spanish.

The term "jingoistic" seems to apply to you. Look it up. Your native language is English, so you should look it up in an English dictionary. Not an American one. It won't do you any good to look for an American one.

I grew up near a bunch of Cherokee. They've all been here a lot longer than my family. Shouldn't I have learned their language?

Kansas is a 2 day drive from Mexico and a 2 day drive from Canada, unless you drive reaaaaaaally slow.

I'm sorely tempted to show you some American-on-American arrogance, but I can't do that and still remain professional, as much as I'm tempted.

Quite the irony you've got going in these couple of sentences, particularly with your employment of the word "horseshit." Yeah, I can't either. Not in the mood to be wasting time on a discussion that will clearly go nowhere.

I'm Canadian, not European, and my country is the second largest land mass. No excuses from me. It takes me days to get to Kansas. I've been there. Ever been to the east coast of Canada? It's amazing.

Here's the thing Matty Matterson (isn't that condescending?) your posts ooze exactly what you are trying to disprove. Even worse, since you've been an active member since 2003, I figured that you would have a handle on how this place runs. It's not a place for standing your ground in the face of opposition, but rather learning things about others and how they live their lives. It's about educating yourself and other's, not just the latter. So here is where we find our problem dude.

Your argument is that American's are not ignorant, but you continually refuse to refute all of the points, and then choose some that work within your own vein of chosen subject. Your excuse is exactly, again, what your saying isn't part of American culture. You say "we are welcoming" but follow with "why the hell would I need to know that you moral high horses".

Here's the thing. Our moral high horse is a standard you, yourself, claimed to be on as well, which is one of an open mind; open to the possibility that we don't know the best. That we aren't the authority on what is and isn't. Kansas or not I come from one of the smallest, and poorest provinces in Canada. I come from a Capital City that has less then 70,000 people. A common way to make money is to work in the trades, to farm, or to work in lumber/forestry. Also we are the only officially bi-lingual province, a hub for culture, a center of Canadian pride and beauty, and most certainly not ignorant.

You see the difference between you and me is I am ashamed when I don't know something about anything. You feel justified. That is arrogance.

Then why'd you bother posting at all? oh right, cause you found a cute way of calling me an idiot AND an asshole, without REALLY calling me and idiot and an asshole. And the Jazz, thanks for your professionalism, I learned something today - Mexican's speak Spanish, and Americans speak English. Cool!

Punk Rock ...hold on....musicfan21. You'll notice I haven't said one derogatory thing about Canada, or England, or anyplace else. Your disgust with Americans is justified through this freedom fry/patriot toast/sports chants thing. Sorry for not taking them one by one. Your larger point was reacting to something I said that you completely misunderstood. I had one single solitary point that you managed not to address....so please, I don't think your trying to understand.

This discussion had become something else when I joined the conversation and I was reacting both to the idea of American's not being arrogant, as well as reacting to your post that proceeded mine.

And my points, if you'll read my original post, were not about what you are, but rather how you are perceived. And you continually found a way to further yourself into that stereotype in how you reacted. It's childish dude, that's all.

And the point I made about you skipping all of the points that seemed to not fit within your given topic was ignored, and you picked out the three things I made a joke about. I don't feel comfortable enough to have a discussion about American missteps because what I once learned and thought about have kind of left over the years of studying something else; which sucks.

You're being argumentative for arguments sake now, which is terrible because this is a great topic. But your seemingly endless tirade about American non-superiority (which comes off terribly superior) is becoming very tedious. Unless you have something to add from here I'm done. I should have joined you abaya and jazz long ago.

I don't hate American's, but I hate douches. Try to be a respectable first one, instead of the latter, and internationals won't link the two.

Oh, no, matthew330, we get EXACTLY what you're trying to say. We just don't agree with it in any way.

You've got no interest in actually learning anything in this thread. You created it with a preconceived notion, and you're going to be damned if you let anyone say anything to the contrary. So if you're going to make stupid mistakes in your posts, I'm going to take great pleasure in rubbing your nose in them. And if you think that makes you look like an idiot and an asshole, then all the better.

You've been here since the last crash. You know this place is about evolution. Hell, I'll even grant that it means intelligent design - that actually might describe what TFP is all about. So if you bring up your tired old arguments again and again and don't have any interest in learning anything about anyone else or even accepting different viewpoints, then expect to get challenged. I'll do it as respectfully as I can, but you're making that very difficult with your attitude. Read all 5 (?) of my posts in this thread, and you can track my growing disgust.

This thread makes me laugh, almost as much as Host's 'Canadians tip like shit thread'. Arrogance is everywhere, it's always amazing when people are shocked to be confronted with it.

I stand by my earlier comment that there is ignorance around the world. Why should we be surprised to encounter it.

I agree with matthew that there is no real reason for an American living in the middle of the US to learn another language. Sure it would be nice if they did, but honestly, why bother?

What troubles me in general about international relations is just how little we all know and/or learn about each other. Most people base their understanding of the Other on some tried and tired stereotypes (the arrogant American, the stinky French, the uptight Briton, the hoser Canadian, etc.).

In the US this can be exacerbated by a rather myopic culture. Not a heck of a lot of foreign films, television programs, etc. reach the masses. Interestingly the reverse is true in other nations but foreign culture is largely American culture.

As an American, it is important to realize that, generally speaking, the most intimate connections that foreigners have with the US is through its cultural exports. And that runs that gamut from Baywatch and Buffy to CNN and Fox News.

Of course not all American are arrogant. But one does have to realize that perceptions are not created in a vacuum.

silent jay I've bothered punk rock and The_Jazz enough. Would you mind taking this offline and teaching me what the TFP is all about. I'm clearly the only one who isn't listening and I should have stopped at Dachau - or maybe idiot, asshole, or douche. Those would have all been good places to stop

My apologies everyone. America, as I said in my title - is arrogant. End of Story.

To clarify - by "offline" I meant outside of this thread. No thems weren't really fighting words. The previous two posters were teaching me about the rules of TFP, and silent jay said he didn't have anything to add, but added anyway, so I asked him if he could....

for crying out loud....you will continue to hear what you want to hear and react. Grow up.

in a bar, them'd be fighten' words! :eek:

Way to become even more of a charicature of yourself, matthew330. Gonna wear your NASCAR shirt at the same time? If you are, don't forget your flag pin.

Okay, I have to respond to this. You're missing the point. You're using our words to further yourself again. My ex-girlfriend use to do that; I'd say something about her needing to solve her problem and I'd be there to help and even though she came to me for that she would say "I'm always the one with the problem, right?".

Here's the thing Matt, this last post is why we're reacting to this badly man. You're not a bad person, well I don't know that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You are not listening to what we have to say, and your reading what you want, and reacting in the same way to endless amounts of different arguments from several intelligent people. Help yourself man. We aren't attacking.

And the sarcasm that drips from your post is also arrogant. Just try man. That is all I ask. And stop calling me punk rock; it's irritating. Please and thank you.

I can't argue with anything you've said Charlatan. Makes sense to me. But going back to my original point. On an individual level, what's foreign to me is that its okay to insist on a conversation with an American when he's in your country where America is belittled and insulted. That does not happen here, and seems to be the norm outside of this country.. The posts on this board never directly addressed that point, but seem to be saying it's okay and heres why - you have something called "the patriot act".
-----Added 21/7/2008 at 08 : 45 : 10-----
....and the jazz has completely lost it.
-----Added 21/7/2008 at 08 : 50 : 49-----
My ex-girlfriend used to always have the last word. I learned to let her.

I think you will find that most people here have agreed with you that your encounter in Canada was not acceptable. Clearly the guy you met was an asshat.

As for it not happening in US, I would suggest that it does happen but that you are not party to it. I know I have been sitting with Americans in America and had them disparage Canada, the French and the Middle East to people from those respective nations and regions.

The key is that it's easier to spot this sort of behaviour when you are are the recipient.

As for why it's happening to Americans... I think this thread is bubbling with some of the resentment, anger and frustration that has lead many non-Americans to feel the way they do.

While I am not certain about his, I suspect it might have something to do with my point about how most foreigners relate to Americans... through cultural exports. It's easy to objectify an American when they seen through a cultural prism. It can be a bit of shock when you meet one in person and they don't live up to the stereotype... worse yet, they are human and can argue back.

I would suggest, this is the sort of thing that happens in the US when Americans meet muslims and find out that as individuals many are actually quite nice... if you follow me.

"I think you will find that most people here have agreed with you that your encounter in Canada was not acceptable. Clearly the guy you met was an asshat."

In all respect Charlatan, I haven't found that. As for the rest of the post, perhaps your right.

actually - what I heard was I should have been humble and apologetic.

I just reviewed the posts and you are right. The only one to expressly disavow the idiot you met was Leto... though I suspect, given the tone of some of the other posts, that you would find other are in agreement if they were to address this point specifically rather than dealing with the causes...

Though I could be wrong.

And those who suggest you should be humble and apologetic are wrong too. Humble isn't a bad thing but there is no need to apologize for something that is beyond your control. America, like all nations, has good and bad things about it. Given America's size and influence it is sometimes easy to forget the good things.

I missed that post - sorry Leto and thanks.

Can this thread go in the hall of fame? It's more amusing than most ...

You've been here since 2003, if you don't know what TFP is about by now, me explaining it to you isn't going to do a bit of good, you're set in your ways.
Arrogance is everywhere matthew, Americans don't have a corner on the market by any means, I merely find it amusing when people are confronted with it and they're surprised.

Yes, yes I said I had nothing to add, then edited my post, you can ask me to take this 'offline' all you like, doesn't mean I'll comply. You must admit though, you are sort of proving a point you were trying to disprove.

Yes the Canadian you dealt with was an asshat, I've dealt with Americans who were asshats, we're even, as I've said before arrogance is everywhere, not just in America.

Yes highthief, this does belong in the Hall, 2 pages and I've been laughing my ass off since I found this thread, fucking hilarious.

To be fair most of us, including myself, led off by saying "this isn't what you are, but how you are seen" then continued to say "you are proving me wrong". I apologize for being an asshole in return. But my opinion of the US and how it is seen are two totally different things. My first post was pointing out exactly what you are trying to prove but in a different way. I said that how you are seen is a joke, and doesn't do you justice. And how you reacted prompted our sparing.

I think the list of things I left are still true, but I also think, if you had bothered to ask instead of assuming, that Americans are people; not just Americans.

Hey Charlatan, I agree with your last statement. I may be misinterpreting the point but how I really feel about this is pretty simple. There are negative reactions brought upon this situation by both sides; the bad thing is that the two sides are usually America vs. Everyone else. The problem is this, in my opinion:

America put itself in a position of being a Global superpower; there are even arguments made that they are the new Global Empire. In this position you'll find several hypocrisies stemming from a number of the "others", in that they are both relying on this, and upset that you are ruling over them; my country is often guilty of this. But when a country puts themselves in the position it is unreasonable to think that you won't get that backlash. It's something you should expect. And that's where the perception, or misperception, starts I think. America in the position to say "Well... you're welcome" and the people on the outside saying "Nobody asked in the first place". It builds from there.

Again, sorry for being an ass. That doesn't make me feel any different about how you were posting though.

I forgive you.

Again, thanks for not responding to what I'm saying. Don't start a fucking discussion if you don't want to discuss. Go to chat if you want to just talk, or even just to speak for the sake of speaking.

You aren't saying anything different. I've said what I needed to say to what you've already said. Long live the empire. Sorry - don't know what this means or how to respond to it:

In this position you'll find several hypocrisies stemming from a number of the "others", in that they are both relying on this, and upset that you are ruling over them; my country is often guilty of this.

or what came before or after it. If you want this thread to go where I'm not sure your trying to make it go, I'll (sort of quietly) bow out
-----Added 21/7/2008 at 09 : 53 : 48-----
....and another one goes over Silent Jays head.

Silent Jay, I didn't really want you to take me "offline".
-----Added 21/7/2008 at 09 : 55 : 49-----
that's messed up Silent Jay - you can't completely erase your thread and rewrite it. Clarify it, but don't erase it.

Arrogant much?

Well you said you wanted me to take you offline and explain the meaning of TFP to you, so now you didn't want me to take you offline? Make up your bloody mind dude.
Sorry, I decided I had more to add than I originally though, and yes, if I choose to erase a post and rewrite it, I can do that if I like, you have no control over that al all, regardless if you think it's messed up or not.

But I'm done with this thread, it's pointless other than for the humour it has supplied us, for that I thank you matthew, have fun in your 'discussion'.

are we still all over 18?

I take great offense that the vast majority of people here think Americans are arrogant. It simply is not true. I think that is very revealing about them. Perhaps others are arrogant for presuming that we are?

It's very simple really. There are some Americans who are arrogant or behave arrogantly AND there are some other nationalities from all nations that are arrogant or behave arrogantly. But to pin this all on Americans and resort to the old tiresome America bashing free for all is just old. Come on now people, we should be better than this.

Thought you said you learned from an ex-girlfriend to let her have the last word, it would seem that lesson wasn't learned, merely glossed over as you seem to have to have the last word, no matter how little it adds to the discussion.

Last post in this 'discussion'(if you can call it that), matthew arrogance is everywhere, America, Canada, United Kingdom, Mexico, everywhere in this great big world, Americans don't have the market cornered, don't see why you're so surprised when you're confronted with it, but my words will be ignored, or I'll be told 'another one goes over my head(no arrogance there), so this was a waste of energy to even type, maybe someone else will come along to bother with you, but it certainly won't be me. Have a good evening.

This can't be the TFP's only meta-thread, can it? :D

I don't see Americans as arrogant in person, though I haven't known that many. The ones I've known were decent people who liked being in Canada even though not all of them stayed.

I agree with Charlatan in that Matthew, as a Kansan, doesn't necessarily need to know other languages. Fewer than 1 in 10 Kansans speak a language other than English. However, with air travel, the Internet, and globalization, I would at least expect a certain level of cultural literacy. I suppose the exemptions would be those Kansans who do not partake in or are affected by any of these things. A completely and locally isolated farmer, however Medieval that may seem, would be totally exempt from my expectation.

this is one is approaching HOF material from this guy. clearly winding everyone up it seems.

i think every country has its fair share of jackknowitalls.

Oh boy. I can hold a simple conversation in French - ask directions, order food, that sort of thing. I certainly can't SPEAK FRENCH. I can puzzle my way through a Spanish menu or timetable, but can't have a talk to anyone about anything. I know a little technical German.

Most British people are hopeless at foreign languages. We need a phrasebook to visit another county, let alone going abroad.

The difference is that most people in my country have looked about and could tell you that the language people speak in Mexico is Spanish, not "Mexican". :no:

You've taken what was a discussion of American being insular and inward looking and turned it into one about Europeans knowing other languages. The point isn't that Europeans speak each other's languages - many don't - the point is that my TV news tells me things about Greece, Belgium, Russia, and so on. Whenever I've been in the states, I watch your news coverage and I come out after each trip having to go on a news binge online to find out what happened in the world while I was gone.

All US news services I have been exposed to feel to me like the local paper from Aberdeen that (apocryphally) reported the loss of the Titanic with "Aberdeen Man Lost At Sea".

Well, the Sea that one crosses to get from the British east coast to Germany, Denmark, Scandinavia is called "The North Sea", and you can't cross it by train.

If I said "You can't call lakes "great" when they're full of ice and pollution" I'd probably be put on a TSA list and banned from entering the US. :rolleyes:

Matt330, I understand your point of view. You have presented it with calm and respect, and in return you have received several insults and smarmy comments. Through it all, you have remained a gentleman.

I am proud to have you as a fellow countryman and TFP-er! Bravo!

Whilst I'm happy to discuss with Matt330, I would not consider poking fun at people's names, and making snide comments about not being able to call something a sea if you can get the train past it as being the hallmark of a gentleman.

Matt330 is not the Messiah, he's a naughty, naughty boy.

I didn't see where Matt poked fun at people's names. Perhaps you can enlighten me?


I see nothing snide in his train-across-the sea-remark... As was pointed out earlier, the Brits are less likely to know a second language than their brethren across the Channel-- which is probably a result of their relative isolation. Of course, I could be wrong.

There was certainly snide comments from both sides. I was certainly pushed to the point of being pissed off; I'm pretty civil.
-----Added 22/7/2008 at 02 : 42 : 03-----
It's funny because I can't even agree with you without getting a smart ass answer about how I'm wrong or insufficient in some way. I was saying that countries who criticize the US are hypocrites because they rely on your support but also condemn your actions. That could be considered ungrateful.

However I'm so tired of trying to explain my point that I'm giving up; it's just a flame war now where no one is listening. I'd apologize for starting it but I didn't.

I hope that's clearer. Also, my posts are clearly different, with the only similarity being that I "opposed" you. That isn't ground for ignoring it and passing it off as "the same shit over and over". And like I said before you could of gone a long way to listen to some of the opposition but you didn't. That comes off as arrogant, which is where all of the "you are contradicting yourself" comments came from. All of the sparing came after you refused to listen as well. Most people would consider starting a discussion and then refusing to listen to the other points both useless and arrogant. I think that's where most of us are coming from; definitely me.

All I know is that if I lived in Europe I would learn German so I would be ready the next time they came marching through.

We drove from Maryland to Colorado over three days. I am pretty sure I did not cross a border into a foreign land at that time. It would still take about that long to make the rest of the trip to California. Learning a foreign language just simply is not high on our radar.

BTW, we tend to make fun of Kansas as well. It is one boring fucking drive.

this guy gets it. Much of the deepest roots of American "arrogance" or the perception of it by people in other nations comes from the fact that America is the most powerful nation on the planet, both militarily and economically. No other nation (including China or even Britain, if for some reason it came to it) can challenge us militarily in the air or at sea for decades to come. But CHina has been thinking long-term, and they play by different rules and have more resources - they're catching up. We Americans are almost ashamed of our offensive military power and have had poor leadership. Similar to the British in the 1st half of the 20th century.

the difference between arrogance and obnoxiousness is, to me, whether one can back it up, but the actions to an outsider might be perceived the same. I think Americans are rightly perceived to be expressing our patriotism loudly lately, and that at a deep level, it's out of fear that we can no longer back it up.

thus the drunken ramblings of a former frequent politics board contributor who once nearly got beat up in a London pub for praising Thatcher.

p.s. sorry about Tom Hicks- he's a lousy owner- even of our teams!

Quite simply - it comes from the TV/film that is exported.

My guess is that your more educated or sophisticated programming is not exported to as large an extent.

This is hilarious. "Americans are arrogant, they don't speak multiple languages, they don't know Mexicans speak Spanish. Where I come from everyone can speak with everyone regardless of where they come from or what language they speak".

How about Americans are people. People can be arrogant, even people from countries considered "not arrogant". Why people seem to have to categorize people based on nationality, religion, race, or political bent never ceases to amaze me. I have traveled a little, and have never been anywhere where everyone was an angel or an asshat.

I am American and proud of it, but would not lump any other Country into a category based on stereotypes and media depictions. If you disagree with the politics of a country, fine. But why generalize a population.

As to the original post, if I were in a situation where I felt someone was belittling me based on something I had no control over the conversation would be over.

I will never understand people taking a stand based solely on politics, nationality, race or religion. I stopped participating long ago in the politics forum for just that reason. There is way too much, you're just a liberal, you're just a Republican, or you're a Canadian, so that explains your position, and that makes you obviously wrong. It's usually not stated as such, but it's not too difficult to interpret. Then the piling on begins and it's downhill from there. Not enjoyable to me but it must be to others.

Just my 2 cents.

for the record, you'll notice in the post before referred to "speaking Mexican" I mentioned having to speak Spanish in Northern Virginia. Obviously the Spaniards are not flocking to NOVA, it's the Mexicans. When I said "speaking Mexican" it was just typing a little to quickly. I let my little liberal friends have that one - I don't like to kick people when there down, but after the third time it's mentioned, just thought I'd point that out.

Cruzor, ending the conversation was not in my opinion an option. I went from trying to change this guys perspective by being friendly on other matters, to "allright, enough - I'm not walking away from this, and you want this - so here you are".

...and this...

"
I am American and proud of it, but would not lump any other Country into a category based on stereotypes and media depictions. If you disagree with the politics of a country, fine. But why generalize a population."

I agree with, and has become my point. The majority of the posters here have excused this behavior with either meaningless lists of things they find annoying about what they've been told about America, or media depictions (which was a more tolerable excuse, but an excuse nonetheless). Basically that I can expect this next reaction next time I leave. Cant wait to see you all abroad!

I think a poll would be in order.....I've heard of Freedom Fries...but how many Americans here have gone to a restaurant and asked for that? Seriously...who? I'd like some freedom fries, please. For the foreigners out there, I've never heard that phrase anywhere other than the TV. Just saying...

Matthew... the problem isn't that "freedom fries" isn't in actual use. The problem is that the idea that it is in use is out there. Sometimes ideas are more powerful and long lasting than reality. It helps to remember that freedom fries came into play at the same time as, "you are either with us or against us".

As for making excuses for the rude guy you met in the bar... I am troubled by the fact that so few actually took the time to condemn his actions. Perhaps I am being optimistic but I would like to believe that most would agree he was an asshole... that their points about why Americans are seen as arrogant by other nations was more about listing why someone would feel that way rather than being about his specific actions.

In other words, it is one thing to understand why the idiot would come to his conclusions. It is another to support his rudeness.

Again, I might be being too optimistic on this. But I don't think so.

I won't condemn the guy he was talking to. Maybe the Matthew was talking to was a dick, maybe he wasn't. But I have a hard time condemning someone's actions when I wasn't there to experience it, don't have video or audio or anything substantial to back up that he was a douche. All we have is a poster who is claiming someone else was being arrogant while his own words and attitudes shown in his initial and further postings show his own arrogance. And my personal, anecodotal, experiences have usually found that the more someone claims persecution, claim someone else was being arrogant or mean, most of the time we're hearing about it from them through their own rose-tinted glasses, which usually doesn't reflect reality accurately. There's nothing in this thread to condemn other than a bogeyman.

My problem with the freedom fries issues was two fold:

1. It was stupid
2. My elected officials spent time on changing the name of fries and toast instead of working on actual issues.

Not to mention the irony of the term french when used in cooking. Doesn't mean they are from France, but that the pototoes are cut into thin strips. Same applies to french style green beans or frenched lamb chops. It's a style of julienning or cutting into thin strips.

Hence it was STUPID.

And the reaction to many average citizens to this didn't help with the perception that Americans are arrogant. I knew many people who thought this was a great thing.

Charlatan the super moderator has injected common sense into this thread. But I can't help but point out:

That's so cute you think you're your own country! Huzzah to the 51st state! I love your ice. And your Ginger Ale.

I frankly don't understand the matt hate. His politics may lean against yours, but there's no reason to disregard his argument. If I had the same experience in Canada, I'd agree that current policies are teh stupid, but American citizens do not need to be apologetic. Everybody should be humble, but acting like a cur is not in order.

High school kids in this country are doing work that grad students did two decades ago. Artistically and creatively, the world looks at America for cues. We don't just pick up a few Brit shows to run our culture. We don't consist of a bunch of Baptist churches and Three's Company re-runs. We're a melting pot and we damn well do it better than most countries.

And Kansas is just fine. Stop picking on it.

I thought that was a myth now.

Kansas is just an American Saskatchewan, right? But without the uranium.

I can't believe I'm posting here but I'm still a child; what can I say.

The Freedom Fries comment. Okay, enough of this ridiculousness. I keep saying "Re-read my first post and you'll understand what I meant" because, in reality, I didn't accuse you of being arrogant at all. In fact, I made sure to say that you weren't. But you read it and got inflamed about the list, you missed the point completely. I'm tired of saying "re-read etc" so I'm just going to quote myself, and highlight the portions that I wished you would have re-read. Please read them before attempting to spar with me, by using my own words against me.

I named my penis "NASCAR".

(Of course, my pediatrician was European.)

Fellow with the green bay packers helmet for an avatar, this:

"Your nation tends to put itself at the forefront for everything, and then expects when things go bad, for people to look aside. It's a lack of political accountability, and at least a little, if not a lot of, arrogance that makes this possible. And even though it isn't (or shouldn't be), it's become an international joke. It doesn't make you or the individuals of your country that; not even close. But the way you allow yourselves to be presented is all we see. And because of that, that's why we're here. That's how I feel. "

...though it sounds real smart, means nothing...and purposefully - seriously ZERO. And this is what you wanted me to re-read? Its really a relatively simple thread topic, that YOU freaked over. To say that I got inflamed is ridiculous.

You never once addressed the point of the thread, took it in your own direction, and got pissed that I didn't follow your 51 Why I hate america points, and Daniel's 36 of them.

You and Hanukah Harry now get a head pat from me and an ass-kick out the door. Thats really all you deserve.

wow. you don't respond to anything i say, ignore what everyone is saying to you, and then feel superior enough, are arrogant enough, to say something like that. wow. just wow.

Hey c'mon guys. Let's take it easy for a sec. No need to continue the vitriol. Maybe agree to disagree?

That I made up or embellished that story deserved a response? Seriously. You weren't talking to me, you were talking to your TFP audience.

Okay...here's my response. Harry, that's REALLY the way it happened.

Are you happy harry?

well, if you notice, i was actually responding to charlatan. so it seems kind of rude, imo, for you to make a snarky/assish comment to me when a) the comment wasn't directed to you and b) you didn't feel the need to respond to the content of the post. if you disagree with me, fine. but there's no reason to act like a dick. it makes me think it's even more likely you heard what the canadian guy said the way you wanted to hear it, as him being arrogant, rather than how he necessarily said it.

yeah, i'm happy, i went on a pretty good date last night, still feeling pretty good about that. but you've got nothing to do with that.

matthew, I get that you are put out by the responses you are getting from various people here. I get that you feel they are not replying in the manner you would like but really, this sort of line doesn't help.

punkmusicfan and harry were trying to explain their positions and why they see things as they do. Clearly they see things differently and are trying to help you understand why they feel as they do.

Instead of retaliating with an ass-kick why not try to clarify your position. If they still don't get where you are coming from, realize its and "agree to disagree" situation and move on to something in the thread.


Just a thought.

I'm starting to wonder if "Toronto Ass" that met up with Matt in the restaurant was reacting to some prodding...

You're only STARTING to wonder?

He clearly has some heartfelt and strongly conceived beliefs, and defends his case with energy and vigour, if not good grace at all times. He's demonstrated a tendency to make it very clear to his interlocutor that he disagrees most strenuously with their point, and has a zealous love for his homeland.

I think given someone with a similar conviction, but an opposing point of view, a strong difference of opinion was inevitable.

I responded because you implied that American's are not arrogant, in fact they are very accepting. But when others come into contact with Americans or even become one, they feel the need to shit on them. I responded by saying "I think this is why". The fact that you find it meaningless doesn't matter; it makes me kind of annoyed and cheated that I invested in a conversation that ultimately ended in someone who is a decade my senior calling my opinions useless and that all I deserved was to be booted from the conversation. I know I don't agree with you man, I don't really care if you don't agree with me. If you got into a conversation with someone who belittled you, and you felt like coming here and shitting on him through us, you're not really in the right place.

The list I made was semi-serious; mostly because I take what comes "out of america" with a grain of salt. I realize no one actually feels like O'Reilly but that's what people see; insane media, a larger then life president, excessive "patriotism", wars, economic and militaristic superpower, political statements like "if your not for us, your against us", etc. You're country, over the past few years, has become kinda like People; I don't give a fuck about Lindsay Lohan but people seem to love to watch her burn. In reality you're not burning, you're just another country, but that's people. People are always looking to shit on those above them.

The problem in this conversation is that people said things that you disagreed with and then jabbed at them with little pokes. For instance, you never referring to me by name, it's Taylor by the way, and making a joke about it all of the time. Little smart ass comments which made me jab back, and then you continued to accuse me of "starting it". It's childish dude, I just wanted to talk to you about something that has been part of my life since I was old enough to think about it.

You say things that have no real purpose either. You never directly answer what I have to say and when I ask you to you do a shrug take with the same line "What do you want me to say?" or "You're ridiculous so why would I answer". And you act like I should give you respect. You're showing me less then respect, you're insulting my intelligence by telling me it's useless, and that there is no substance to what I say.

Its rude, it's unfriendly, its cocky, and really condescending. My feelings aren't hurt. But don't start threads that you don't want to hear answers to. Like I said before, just go to chat if you want to say something incendiary if you want to have a boxing match.

"Tilted Forum Project - TFP - Sexuality, Philosophy, and Political Discussion"

The only reason I refuse to give up is because I'm young and naive and hope that you'll listen to one of us once. But don't ever tell me that I'm useless ever again. And don't quote that and be a smart ass. Just don't call me useless again.

For someone so, "young", pmf, that was a very mature reply.

Yeah that was an honest post that deserves a thoughtful response which I don't have the time for right now , I got guests on my back porch drinking my beer. I I disagree with alot of it right off the bat, I'll get back to you though.

I really don't want to revive this thread and don't intend to post again but I said I'd answer punkmusicfan so here goes:

First off - I really read your name as "punkrockmusicfan21". I wasn't making fun of you, I was being slightly dismissive when I called you punk rock person, but when I finally called you punkrock and you still got pissed, I was slightly confused - so know I know your punkmusic fan. Yeah - I had little jabs in that post, but relative to what I was getting, they paled in comparison.

You have to understand that I'm talking to 7 to 8 people, most of which are ridiculously sensitive to any point being made that contradicts their own. This thread wasn't about "what does everyone hate about America", it was on a more personal than that. If America is seen as arrogant on the world scene, but American individuals themselves aren't (which seemed to be the general consensus here), then why is it acceptable to approach Americans outside of their country as if the individual was responsible? What further surprised me was that this person couldn't defend his own dislike for America when challenged about it. Were they looking for an apology from me - that to me is arrogant.

Anyway, because I'm talking to multiple people, all of whom expect me to respond to each one of their points, and many of whom are calling me (indirectly or otherwise) idiot, asshole, and douche because I haven't caved into what they think is some end-of-story point right off the bat, you really have to separate yourselves from the "pack". Up until that last post - you were just part of it.

The thread was being taken where I didn't think it should go (a meta-thread as someone called it about what's wrong with America). As the responses related to my specific point, it was justifying this guys behavior.

Not only did I not find it necessary to respond to specific reasons why America sucks, your 2nd to last post about America putting itself at the forefront and expecting for people to look aside, was so ridiculously vague and off-topic that there really is no response to that.

Rude, unfriendly, cocky, and condescending are appropriate descriptions of the posts on this thread - but they weren't coming from me for the most part. The tilted left in my opinion has perfected the art of responding to dissenting opinions in this manner and then acting disgusted and offended if anyone responds in kind (even to IMO a much lesser degree). God bless AceVentura, but I'm not him. You look at the shit that guy takes from every angle with almost every post and he just keeps trucking. Sorry - I can't do that, that's why I don't post often, but on a rare occasion I find myself not being able to resist....and regretting it pretty immediately, but fighting it out nonetheless.

Thank you. And I agree for the most part. I can see that if you feel like you are on the outside of the majority that TFP would represent this daunting and often tedious task; conversations would be an uphill battle. And I know that mud was thrown here which isn't appropriate but since it came from both sides I'm going to take that out of account. I can see that this might have been a personal post, in fact I even mentioned in my last post that if this was pent up resentment then you should of taken it elsewhere and I still think that's true; not away from TFP but to a blog or journal. You're opinion wasn't so much unwelcome, as it was misunderstood but if what you wanted was to say your piece and bow out then you shouldn't of posted it in Politics because a) people here can get very fervent (which is true for most political convictions) and b) it's for discussion. I see what you're saying but I hope you can see why people responded like they did.

However, the irony of your last post is kind of overwhelming. Talking about TFP majority, about how all of our posts needed to be responded to, that everyone expected answers, etc. That we are, in a sense, all the same. We aren't though, and people only respond when they have something personal to say. Everyone expected answers because you created a discussion, and they responded, and in turn wanted answers of their own; just like you. Our responses had nothing to do with attacking you or the united states, but the simple fact that we disagreed with your original statement. You made it seem as if he were wrong (yes, agreed), but that you're whole country, on the other hand, is open. That implies a couple of things, including another irony in you making a broad positive statement about EVERYONE but being upset by the broad negative statements and calling them exactly that; broad. The others read this, I'm assuming, and disagreed.

The thing is you took it at a personal level (reacting as if we were that dick in the bar, who is a dick btw) when really we were saying "It sucks that you're seen this way, but we FEEL you are and this is why we THINK that's so". And you reacted as if we had said something completely different: "America blows; here's why". My list, which seemed to be very controversial, was mostly stereotypes and jokes, which I stated, was what you're country (thanks to the powers that be) further everyday on the world stage. I followed by saying "but your not" and then quoted you and followed with "You're making them sound right. Don't do that if you don't want to be seen that way". That is me being honest; I do the same thing with anyone I care about. And unlike the sweeping "TFP majority" (which I agreed with when stating that I seperated from because I did get caught up) I care about everyone on here; I'm not part of any other discussion group and this has become kind of a home for me, which makes you my family.

And not to justify the name calling, you should realize that all of that had to do with your response (ie how you worded them) and not with the actual substance that had to do with this topic. I see where you're coming from. But what you posted, where you posted, and how you posted all read discussion, and because it's kind of an "elephant in the room" conversation for most people between American's and those affected by "America" it grew.

I say feel very free to post. Just don't prod, pull, or twist people until they twist back. And don't expect to say something very bold and not expect a response.

Good luck man; and thanks again for the honesty. If I would of gotten that two pages ago then you would of saved a lot of typing.

Seriously? They weren't coming from you for the most part? You who makes the arrogant post that 'another one goes over silent jay's head', or asking me to take this 'offline' to explain things to you, then quickly in your next post saying you didn't mean 'offline', well which was it, or did you get caught in something you didn't want to partake in?

You're trying to make yourself look like a victim in this thread, and you know what I just don't see it, you can't make little jabs at people and not expect them to respond, but apparently you're arrogant comments were fine and the responses were 'rude, unfriendly, cocky'.

I do see you looking arrogant in this thread quite a bit though, so kudo's to you for proving something you were trying to disprove.

There was arrogance and rudeness on many fronts.

(North) Americans (can be and often) are arrogant...