Obama's Rhetoric VS What Was Said to Our Great-Grandparents to Attract Their Votes.. - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The_Jazz · 06-20-2008, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

The silence from his supporters on this forum is noted.

If the goal of this thread is to change your mind, I, for one, am not up the challenge.

Congratulations, host, you're the immovable object. I'm sure we have an irrestible force, but I'm not it. Maybe dc_dux cares to take on this thankless job - I've got enough of my own already.

Hopefully that counts for some sort of break in the silence.

guyy · 06-20-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

Obama is a very busy man....carrying water for the PTB is a fulltime job. Now, today, as he failed this test of leadership...(last night, his aids said they had to study the FISA "reform" bill)....we have the real measure of the man. Another flash in the pan, an empty suit. The silence from his supporters on this forum is noted.

This is an interesting issue because i don't think going the Bush way necessarily wins you any votes. You may lose some paranoid Democrats by opposing it, but on the other hand, you might gain some folks on the libertarian wing of the Republican party. I think some of the Cheney types might be vulnerable this fall. Why play to them? People have other things on their minds.

At this point our alternatives are McCain and Obama and 3rd party candidates. Clinton is done. Besides, where does she really stand on this issue? During the campaign, she was in favour of debate, but didn't come out against it. Obama did the same thing. Perhaps i missed something. Still, i can't imagine she's going to stick her neck out.

loquitur · 06-20-2008, 12:37 PM

By definition a president is part of the PTB. Can't be any other way. Methinks host is in a logical mobius strip here.

Obama is a very attractive candidate, host, and he is VERY left - sane, but left. I'm sitting here scratching my head about what you think he's doing wrong.

Oh, and about the OP - Woodrow Wilson was a horrible racist with a mile-wide authoritarian streak. He spoke a good game, though. Be very careful about holding him up as some sort of paragon.

Willravel · 06-20-2008, 12:59 PM

Loquitor, I'd argue that some presidents are a part of the "powers that be", but many quite simply are pawns. Compare the profits Bush 2.0's friends have gotten from his presidency with his own personal profits, for example. I would say that it's more likely that Bush 2.0 is more of a tool than a mechanic. The same can be said of many presidents and other world leaders.

Host is specifically speaking, when he mentions the powers that be, of corrupt elements in government, corporations, and international banking.

loquitur · 06-20-2008, 01:13 PM

everyone can be argued to be a pawn of other people. that's because we live in a society where we get ahead by cooperating.

As explained by you, this idea of PTB is not that far removed from a conspiracy theory. You do see that, don't you?

roachboy · 06-20-2008, 01:17 PM

i don't see what you're arguing here, loquitor...explain please?

Willravel · 06-20-2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

everyone can be argued to be a pawn of other people. that's because we live in a society where we get ahead by cooperating.

Yes, but compare who people are a pawn to. If we are to categorize Obama as a pawn, he seems a pawn of the left. He's a pawn to liberal interests, which in the case of what we're seeing now means undoing a great deal of Bush folly. Bush 2.0 on the other hand seems to have created a situation in Iraq where many of his and Cheney's friends can become wildly rich. And that's really just one example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

As explained by you, this idea of PTB is not that far removed from a conspiracy theory. You do see that, don't you?

Are we using theory in the scientific sense or the more common sense? If it's the latter, then I disagree. Oil interests in government and international banking are hardly "theory". Corporate war profiteering is hardly "theory". Really, even the very unethical practices of international bankers is very well established with verifiable evidence.

loquitur · 06-20-2008, 02:53 PM

what do you mean by "pawn"? is Obama a pawn of labor unions, Hollywood and trial lawyers? I tend to doubt he is much of a tool of anyone, but your argument assumes there is improper influence only on the right side of center, when in fact there are roughly comparable sets of influences on both sides, just that the players are different and the agendas are different. Labor leaders aren't backing BHO because of his good looks, you kn"w.

Willravel · 06-20-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

what do you mean by "pawn"?

Cheney: "If you invade Iraq, Haliburton can get no bid contracts and I can make a lot of money."
Bush: "Mkay, Dicky. We'll get dem troops over der for freedom!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

is Obama a pawn of labor unions, Hollywood and trial lawyers? I tend to doubt he is much of a tool of anyone, but your argument assumes there is improper influence only on the right side of center, when in fact there are roughly comparable sets of influences on both sides, just that the players are different and the agendas are different.

Completely wrong. I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

If we are to categorize Obama as a pawn, he seems a pawn of the left. He's a pawn to liberal interests, which in the case of what we're seeing now means undoing a great deal of Bush folly.

That presents improper influence left of center. I presented one liberal example and one conservative example, and you were there to deliver justice by calling my biased.

loquitur · 06-20-2008, 03:28 PM

See, I don't think BHO is a pawn and I don't think GWB is a pawn. I think they just have different constituencies and different thought processes -- but the kinds of quids pro quo they engage in are roughly the same. It's just that the players getting the quids and quos are different.

This idea that the Iraq war was launched for the purpose of enriching Halliburton is batty, Will. That's not a statement of support for the war on my part - whether the war was justified is a separate issue that is OT here - but there was plenty enough going on vis-a-vis Iraq that making KBR the center of analysis is the tail wagging the dog. You're building in an awful lot of assumptions to make that statement. Plus, unless I'm going senile, I seem to remember Cheney unloaded all his HAL stock before the war. I might be wrong.

mixedmedia · 06-20-2008, 03:30 PM

Hey people! I know we're really busy around here, saving the world with our thoughts and good intentions and shit, but...

Go here and read this:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=136616

And vote!

And while you're at it...

makes you want to kiss a Republican, don't she? Or vice versa....

uncle phil · 06-20-2008, 03:40 PM

feel the joy...and love it...

loquitur · 06-20-2008, 03:40 PM

gad, I haven't heard "Get Together" in aeons......... thanks, MM!!

mixedmedia · 06-20-2008, 03:44 PM

You're welcome.

I use it as a joke, but I really do love that song.

oh, and...

/end threadjack

Willravel · 06-20-2008, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

This idea that the Iraq war was launched for the purpose of enriching Halliburton is batty, Will. That's not a statement of support for the war on my part - whether the war was justified is a separate issue that is OT here - but there was plenty enough going on vis-a-vis Iraq that making KBR the center of analysis is the tail wagging the dog. You're building in an awful lot of assumptions to make that statement. Plus, unless I'm going senile, I seem to remember Cheney unloaded all his HAL stock before the war. I might be wrong.

I don't remember saying that Iraq was just for Halibruton, but it seems naive to think that it didn't factor in alongside oil, having military bases in the region, etc. It's on topic at least for this sub-conversation because we're discussing "pawns".

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Cheney...last_1011.html

host · 06-21-2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

PTB? What's PTB?

loquitur, you think we are where we are...when it comes to how political and wealth driven power (and political power is included in wealth driven power...) as a result of some sort of happy "accident". I'll give you a small taste of info on some of the "front men" for the PTB, in the 20th century. You have to be curious, or this "taste" won't have any influence on you to look further, to do your own DD....

From page 2, lower left column:

Quote:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...679C946796D6CF

...In April, 1914, Mr. Dodge associated Samuel F. Pryor with himself in his business. Mr. Pryor had been Vice President of the Simmons Hardware Company of St. Louis and the Southern Car Wheel Company....

Quote:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...846962,00.html
Monday, Aug. 03, 1931
Deals & Developments

No More Bananas. Directors of the $25,000,000-in-assets Atlantic Fruit & Sugar Co. are: Samuel F. Pryor of Remington Arms Co.; lanky Vincent Astar; Frederick Baldwin Adams, chairman of Air Reduction Co. and member of the executive committee of U. S. Industrial Alcohol; Percy Avery Rockefeller; Socialite Robert Walton Goelet of Newport; Henry Osborne Havemeyer, also a director of Chase, Kennecott, and International Match; George Herbert Walker, director of American International Corp. and Barnsdall Corp.; Francis Minot Weld, also on the board of Baldwin Locomotive and Central Hanover Bank & Trust Co.; Guy Gary, a director of National City Bank.

Formed in 1924 after old Atlantic Fruit Co. had been foreclosed, the company lost money in every succeeding year. Last week it suddenly announced it had disposed of its $6,000,000-a-year fruit business (bananas in Jamaica and Cuba) to Standard Fruit & Steamship Corp., controlled by the Vaccaro interests of New Orleans. With the sugar industry in bad shape, with its current liabilities greater than current assets as last reported, Atlantic Fruit & Sugar seemed on the verge of another reorganization despite its imposing directorate.

See "Armaments and the Walker-Bush Clan, 1914-1940"
http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/54/54_12-13.pdf

Quote:

http://www.townofjupiterisland.com/history.php

...The price for the property was set at $25,000. A group of lawyers from Biddle’s office bought the assets and property and sent Forrest Hyde to Jupiter Island to see what their $25,000 had bought.

What Hyde saw was a rundown resort, the Island Inn, badly in need of expensive repairs, with a delinquent tax bill of $40,000. Hyde wanted no part of the investment. Through John Simpson, The Island Inn manager, Hyde was put in touch with William S. Barstow.

Barstow , a retired utilities executive and former partner of Thomas Edison, had lived on the Island for several years. When approached by Hyde, Barstow contacted three other Island residents: Arthur S. Dwight; Joseph V. Reed; and Joseph Reed’s brother-in-law, Samuel F. Pryor. The group formed a new Hobe Sound Company and bought the property at the $25,000 price Hyde’s group had paid, and, in addition, gave the Hyde group 20% of the common stock in the new Hobe Sound Company.

The purchase made by Barstow, Reed and Pryor included the Inn, the golf course, employee houses, and unsold land north of the fork at South Beach Road and Gomez Avenue. It also included other real estate on the mainland.

In 1934, Joseph V. Reed purchased the other owners’ shares in the Hobe Sound Company and began a new period of Island development. The entire property remained under Reed family ownership until 1996.

In 1944, with 75 residents on the Island , Joseph V. Reed and Permelia P. Reed founded the Jupiter Island Resident’s Committee and the Island Club and its Board of Directors. In the next year, 1945, Joseph Reed donated the land for the police station and the firehouse. Proximity to the wooden cottages and main Clubhouse was of paramount importance. The Reeds also gave the land that is now the Hobe Sound Beach to Martin County for use as a public beach....

Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/09/national/09storm.html

....President Bush took a helicopter tour Wednesday over damaged areas, including Fort Pierce, about 25 miles north of Jupiter Island where much of the damage from the strong winds north of the hurricane's eye occurred. He also helped put bottled water, bags of ice and food in the backs of waiting cars in Fort Pierce, and signed legislation giving Florida $2 billion in emergency relief aid.

At the north and south entrances to Jupiter Island, a community in which the president's grandfather, Prescott Bush, played a central role in the 1930's, and where his grandmother lived for years, National Guardsmen monitored the flow of electrical and other repair people in and out of the island, which even at ordinary times is one of the best-guarded communities in the nation......

06-20-2008, 01:17 PM	#46 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i don't see what you're arguing here, loquitor...explain please? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-20-2008, 03:30 PM	#51 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Hey people! I know we're really busy around here, saving the world with our thoughts and good intentions and shit, but... Go here and read this: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=136616 And vote! And while you're at it... makes you want to kiss a Republican, don't she? Or vice versa.... __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

06-20-2008, 03:40 PM	#52 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	feel the joy...and love it... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

06-20-2008, 03:44 PM	#54 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	You're welcome. I use it as a joke, but I really do love that song. oh, and... /end threadjack __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce Last edited by mixedmedia; 06-20-2008 at 03:45 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

06-20-2008, 12:37 PM	#43 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	By definition a president is part of the PTB. Can't be any other way. Methinks host is in a logical mobius strip here. Obama is a very attractive candidate, host, and he is VERY left - sane, but left. I'm sitting here scratching my head about what you think he's doing wrong. Oh, and about the OP - Woodrow Wilson was a horrible racist with a mile-wide authoritarian streak. He spoke a good game, though. Be very careful about holding him up as some sort of paragon.

06-20-2008, 12:59 PM	#44 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Loquitor, I'd argue that some presidents are a part of the "powers that be", but many quite simply are pawns. Compare the profits Bush 2.0's friends have gotten from his presidency with his own personal profits, for example. I would say that it's more likely that Bush 2.0 is more of a tool than a mechanic. The same can be said of many presidents and other world leaders. Host is specifically speaking, when he mentions the powers that be, of corrupt elements in government, corporations, and international banking.

06-20-2008, 01:13 PM	#45 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	everyone can be argued to be a pawn of other people. that's because we live in a society where we get ahead by cooperating. As explained by you, this idea of PTB is not that far removed from a conspiracy theory. You do see that, don't you?

06-20-2008, 02:53 PM	#48 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	what do you mean by "pawn"? is Obama a pawn of labor unions, Hollywood and trial lawyers? I tend to doubt he is much of a tool of anyone, but your argument assumes there is improper influence only on the right side of center, when in fact there are roughly comparable sets of influences on both sides, just that the players are different and the agendas are different. Labor leaders aren't backing BHO because of his good looks, you kn"w.

06-20-2008, 03:28 PM	#50 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	See, I don't think BHO is a pawn and I don't think GWB is a pawn. I think they just have different constituencies and different thought processes -- but the kinds of quids pro quo they engage in are roughly the same. It's just that the players getting the quids and quos are different. This idea that the Iraq war was launched for the purpose of enriching Halliburton is batty, Will. That's not a statement of support for the war on my part - whether the war was justified is a separate issue that is OT here - but there was plenty enough going on vis-a-vis Iraq that making KBR the center of analysis is the tail wagging the dog. You're building in an awful lot of assumptions to make that statement. Plus, unless I'm going senile, I seem to remember Cheney unloaded all his HAL stock before the war. I might be wrong.

06-20-2008, 03:40 PM	#53 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	gad, I haven't heard "Get Together" in aeons......... thanks, MM!!